ATAR Notes: Forum
Uni Stuff => Faculties => Law => Topic started by: hard on March 19, 2009, 10:04:30 pm
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As most know, i love anything to do with law and i'm planning on doing something a long the lines of law realted courses.
However i am very undecided on what specific course and what uni i should study law. I really need help. Firstly, there's the option of doing straight commerce at Melbourne and then hope to make it into J.D. This needs and ENTER of roughly 95 but i could get in with like 93 through ACCESS.
Then there's the option of having to go to ANU, and doing commerce/law which needs and ENTER of ~ 95.5 but i'd need a scholarship to finance my course and then i'd have to work to cover the costs of accommodation.
Then there's the option of doing law/commerce or law at Deakin which needs and ENTER of roughly 93.
Then there's the option of doing law at Monash which needs 98+
I just want to know, that what is the best option? In terms of travel, job opportunities etc etc. I live in the Northern suburbs and like 20 mins from city. The best option for me would probs be Deaking, cause it's the closest and it's not as ambigous as the melbourne model. Monash is too far and ANU i'd have to get the money to go there.
Also is there much work for lawyers? Are they well regarded? Highly paid?
Don't get me wrong, i'm not wanting to become a lawyer for money, but it certainly does play a key role here.
Can someone please give me some info on the courses offered by these unis and other q's i've asked.
thanks.
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Don't get me wrong, i'm not wanting to become a lawyer for money, but it certainly does play a key role here.
Why do you want to become a lawyer?
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I don't know too much about law but heres my (probably very wrong) view on things;
UoM: Like you said, too ambiguous, too uncertain, and basically it's just not worth gambling your career on it, since if you don't get into law, you're kind of left in a 'NOW WHUT' situation. However, the UoM J.D is yards ahead of Monash and Deakin in terms of reputation I think.
ANU: As long as you get the scholarship, and don't mind moving out, I don't see why not. ANU from what I've heard is the most respected (or one of the respected at least) law courses in Australia.
Monash: Travel will be an issue but perhaps you could aim to get one of those $6k a year scholarships which they apparent handed out like cake last year (approximately 98 and above ENTER from what I saw for those who applied; WHY THE HELL DIDN'T I APPLY), with which you could cover accommodation near the campus. From this, you could just go back home on weekends and such too so it wouldn't be too bad; nice balance between independence and family living.
Deakin: OK this might be the controversial part and someone's bound to prove me wrong, but I have a feeling law is one of the courses in which where you get your degree actually matters in terms of employment, and if this is true, Deakin is probably looked down upon quite much more than the other two.
My opinion on this would probably be ANU->Monash->Deakin->UoM, but like I said, law courses definitely aren't my area of knowledge at all and everything I've said here, particularly about reputations is just from some very very unreliable sources.
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Don't get me wrong, i'm not wanting to become a lawyer for money, but it certainly does play a key role here.
Why do you want to become a lawyer?
because i have a genuine interest international law so i'd presume a law degree can take me there.
and shinny thanks again, even though you may not be an expert, any help is appreciated.
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dw abt travel i say, it will give u plenty of time to finish ur readings :P
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interest international law so i'd presume a law degree can take me there..
what's your interest in international law?
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interest international law so i'd presume a law degree can take me there..
what's your interest in international law?
I want to become involved in the whole scene of treaties, resolutions and declarations between like international organizations etc etc. In general, i want to become involved with international affairs that affect legal principles.
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My uni friend said to me today "Why do people do law... most of them are going to end up as civil servants anyway" and i was like 'what?' and he said something about there being too many law students. i have no idea if this is right or not.
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Deakin: OK this might be the controversial part and someone's bound to prove me wrong, but I have a feeling law is one of the courses in which where you get your degree actually matters in terms of employment, and if this is true, Deakin is probably looked down upon quite much more than the other two.
That is actually quite true. The top tier law firms at least usually will not take interns / clerks who are not from Monash or Melbourne. I heard this from people applying for internships, as well as a person who apparently was actually responsible for going through applications. Also I have some personal experience - the group interviews I've gone to for community legal centres etc. have almost all been comprised of UoM and Monash people. I remember ONE lady from Deakin (who didn't end up getting in).
ANU is the best uni in Australia for law.
UoM JD is way too uncertain to risk it, unless your ENTER is too low to get into undergraduate law.
Monash is good for law. Travel may be a problem but like Brendan said, it could be valuable time spent on doing your pre-lecture reading ... because trust me, you're gonna wanna grab every morsel of time you have to complete all the piles of reading you have to do :P
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ah yer thanks ninwa. Well now it's gonna be either monash law if i get in, ANU law or melbourne commerce > law. thanks for the help people.
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Another advantage of ANU (without trying to sound like I want to sell the place) is that international law is something ANU academics are especially keen on.
As far as money goes, if you aren't going to get over about 99.6 or something, then you're unlikely to receive a scholarship that will completely cover accommodation costs. However, there are other options. You can take a year off to work or you can get a low-interest student loan from a bank, or you could work, or you could try to win your way into Centrelink payments, or you can do a number of these things. Your parents might be supportive as well, at least for the first year. It's worth asking them what they would be prepared to contribute.
However, I don't think that the JD option is actually that bad. Melbourne is not the only university that offers the JD - Monash, RMIT and ANU offer it as well. By that time you'd have a degree and therefore a means to earn decent money working part-time at some kind of firm and you could do a JD part-time if you wanted. However, if you know that you want to get into law right now, that's what you should do (incidentally, if you really want to be a lawyer, I don't really see the point in doing a double degree or any other degree).
Another option is to get into Deakin law and then try to get a masters degree at another university, that would make you stand out pretty well.
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yer those are great options there eriny, thanks. Well i have decided now that i will apply for law@ANU , commerce at melbourne, law at monash and law at la trobe and see what happens.
But just a thing about law, is the pay good? like for a la trobe grad, is it good? what about an ANU grad? do most get paid well straight of uni? thanks
EDIT: also could i apply for EAS which is like ACCESS or SNAP or whatever but for the UAC?
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(incidentally, if you really want to be a lawyer, I don't really see the point in doing a double degree or any other degree).
Many top and middle tier law firms look for students doing double degrees, because it means they come with a wider range of skills - e.g. skills in languages (arts), accounting (commerce), etc. Also if you want to be a lawyer for a company in the health sciences for example it would be advantageous to do biomed/law. I have a friend doing engineering/law who wants to work as a lawyer for engineering firms. It depends on what kind of lawyer you want to be.
But just a thing about law, is the pay good? like for a la trobe grad, is it good? what about an ANU grad? do most get paid well straight of uni? thanks
I think the average graduate pay of law graduates is around $50,000/year. I also think pay for a La Trobe grad is unlikely to be as high as a Monash/ANU/UoM grad, unless you've got a crazy high average and heaps of extracurricular activities etc. Also depends on which area you're going to practice in - a legal aid lawyer is not going to be paid nearly as much as a big-time lawyer for a huge company.
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well ur pay depends on whether you yourself are good at what you do. If you are pulling 80s in your law subjects at UoM (and >80 for your other non-law subjects), have plenty of relevant work experience under your belt, i say you got a pretty good chance of breaking into corporate law and hence making decent money in your career.
Also you should check out my legal careers guides thread:
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.0.html
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sweeeeeet thanks guys
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but then again, you want to work in international law, not corporate law. i don't know what the money is like for international law, nor who your likely employers are to be.
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oh and you might want to talk to this guy at UoM: http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=665100718&v=photos#/profile.php?sid=47b97bf3be17cb968fd191d233df05ba&id=665100718&hiq=alan%2Cwu
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but then again, you want to work in international law, not corporate law. i don't know what the money is like for international law, nor who your likely employers are to be.
is there much work in international law?
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i wouldn't have the slightest clue on that, check out the legal career guides
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ight sweet
ay brendan, would you say the work of being a lawyer is strenous? if you know by any chance?
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i do not understand that word
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...strenuous
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If you don't know if you really want to do law, the melbourne model could be good because you don't have to make that decision until later.
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If you don't know if you really want to do law, the melbourne model could be good because you don't have to make that decision until later.
yer that's a +ve for melbourne i guess but still not sure.
the depression rates of lawyers is turning me off and with all the depressing stories of becoming a lawyer, im thinking twice.
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Well the things is, a law degree can help you out in a lot of careers, you don't neccesarily have to be a lawyer. My dad has a law degree with a masters in taxation and works at the tax office. And yes, most people would find that boring but he likes. Basically what I'm saying is with a law degree it'll probably improve your chances of finding a job in a lot of areas, not just law.
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If you don't know if you really want to do law, the melbourne model could be good because you don't have to make that decision until later.
Not quite
If you do a combined degree with law at Monash, then you still retain the option. You could always drop your law component if it doesn't suit you. Or you could effectively do all your non-law subjects first and then put all your law subjects off til later - effectively recreating the melb model but without the risk.
Well the things is, a law degree can help you out in a lot of careers, you don't neccesarily have to be a lawyer.
That's true, but if you are sure you don't want to be a lawyer, the question then becomes is it worth the time and cost to go through a LLB?
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the depression rates of lawyers is turning me off and with all the depressing stories of becoming a lawyer, im thinking twice.
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=5c525cafaf73bffcd2db6fb9a8902bda
On Being a Happy, Healthy, and Ethical Member of an Unhappy, Unhealthy, and Unethical Profession
Patrick J. Schiltz
Quite an interesting and amusing read
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Direct link: http://seoulover.blogs.com/westlaw/files/being_a_happy_lawyer.pdf
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fuck i just read that brendan and now i've lost ALL hope in law. seems like the shittest job ever. back to engineering for me.
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That's a shame, but probably better you find out now. Law is one of those things where if you dislike it, you probably won't survive through your degree. I was talking to someone in 4th year the other day and he said by the time he got to 4th year about half of his year had dropped out.
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You probably shouldn't base your whole career path on one article.
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You probably shouldn't base your whole career path on one article.
I'm confident there are many more like it.
I remember reading a really interesting (but depressing) article in some magazine about the life of a lawyer in a top firm. I vaguely remember one of the partners of a top law firm saying something about family, a social life and being a good lawyer are all connected, you must sacrifice one to get more of the other.
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You probably shouldn't base your whole career path on one article.
That's true. You can also turn it around and say that if one article turns you off a career, then you probably shouldn't be taking that career path anyway.
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Well those people made decisions to sacrifice their families and social lives to further their law careers. It doesn't mean that if you want a career that relates to law, you automatically have to sacrifice your family and social life. Any career path can lead to a hectic career.
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Well those people made decisions to sacrifice their families and social lives to further their law careers. It doesn't mean that if you want a career that relates to law, you automatically have to sacrifice your family and social life. Any career path can lead to a hectic career.
Exactly. Only if you're really really ambitious and want to be a partner of a top tier law firm by 30 or something. Then you'd probably not have a life outside of your career.
I know people who have one or two parents working as highly successful lawyers and their family and social life is perfectly normal. It's all about balance!
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Yeah, and that's basically the same as any career. If you want to be at the top of any career, you'll probably have to make sacrifices.
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http://volokh.com/posts/1173943567.shtml