ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE English Studies => Topic started by: Macaron on June 18, 2012, 10:35:59 pm
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I'm having trouble choosing which one I'd like to do next year.
I'm not that good at writing text response essays although, I like reading novels.
Can anyone give me background information on both of the subjects?
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Hey man, for a good understanding of Eng Lang, check out this link.
English Language Resources, Essays and Information
REad the 2nd post
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Well you need to write an essay in language and they give you a topic to discuss, you analyse written or spoken language. There is some metalanguage definitions to know, but it is overall a good subject. I dont know much about lit.
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tank u guise.
(:
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Lit isn't really about text responses per se. You have to be able to critically analyse and understand an author's intention for writing a text in a certain way and what influenced and contextualised the text itself and then demonstrate your understanding through objective passage analysis. You're not really developing an argument as you do in your standard text response.
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Main stream English is where it's at!
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Ok here's my spiel on English and Lit.
There are 3 tasks in English - Reading and Responding, Creating and Presenting, and Language Analysis.
Reading and Responding is reading a book or watching a movie, and then writing an essay about it when you're given a prompt. Creating and Presenting is analysing a book or movie that has something to do with a bigger idea; the context of the book. You don't analyse the characters of the book or the plot per se, but rather, you use the ideas that you draw from the book to create an essay based around your context. Language Analysis is reading an article that occurs on the net or a newspaper, and then writing an essay which talks about how the author of that piece is using specific words and sentence structures to convince you to his point of view - note that it's not a debate and you're not trying to point out whether the author is right or not, it's just about how he's using words to convince you to his point of view.
In Literature, on the other hand, the writing tasks are much further left field, and imo, somewhat obscure. The main task (and the only task assessed in the exam) is a Passage Analysis in which you are given 3 passages, each probably a few paragraphs each, and you have to read through them and decide what the main ideas are, and then basically say everything you know about the book in terms of your ideas (i.e. talk about the authors life, talk about the texts construction, talk about the specific language that is used in those passages, talk about motifs/metaphors/symbolism and what is has to do with whatever). In addition to this, every SAC is different. You have to study how a book is adapted into a movie, or vice versa, and specifically talk about the pros and cons of each format of presenting the story (i.e. a movie is meant to be watched and can't used heightened diction because it would be too hard to interpret, whereas a book is more likely to use verbose expression to convey the scenery and give a sense of imagery, etc). You study books, and then you read articles who have critiqued parts of the book (real life authors who didn't like something about the book, for example), and then you write an essay about the actual critique of the book. And you also have a views and values task where you read a book and study more or less everything about the author and the time it was written to understand why certain things are the way they are in the book (i.e. study renaissance beliefs to understand renaissance elements in your chosen book, or gothic hermeneutics, or the authors upbringing and childhood, that kinda stuff)
In a word: In English you study the book, and in Literature you read the book and study more complex ideas that often surround the book. In English you write essays about simple ideas in the book (like why character X did Y, was character Z at fault because of event A or was it because of event B?) and sometimes an idea that pervades the book. In literature you read the book and are expected to be able to intuitively know everything about the book (character development, plot development, complications in the text, and the crux of the plot should be easily digestible for you and you are expected to be able to understand all the factors that make the book function the way it does), and using that base level information, you construct much more complicated ideas on the top, like why the author chose to write a certain chapter in the book in a different style to the rest, and what effect it achieves, etc.
English is more like 'why did this character do that'. In literature, they expect you to know all that stuff by default (because it really is trivial to lit students), and then they ask you to find evidence in other forms to prove your points. Instead of saying 'character X did this because earlier in life they were abused/cherished by their parents/etc' like you would in English, in Literature you would say 'the use of gothic imagery in the scene where character X kills character Y compounds the notions of death and gore which have pervaded the preceding chapters, and it is the authors choice of words in saying [horrific word] and [another horrific word] that specifically allude to character X's tragic upbringing'.
In English, I think that there's much more room to stand out. For me, anyway, it was like a spesh kid doing further. It's really trivial stuff. Having studied lit and having and appreciation for how all of the ideas worked in text construction allowed me to excel in English, because I could piggy-back some of the ideas cross-subject. I achieved full marks on the English exam probably only because I had studied Lit. If you have done lit, you can talk about the way the text is constructed, and if you use that knowledge in English correctly, your essays will stand out like a fly in the milk to the examiner. And you will be rewarded for it.
Fact of the matter is that all of the English texts have simple plots and constructions. Take "A Streetcar Named Desire" for instance - it's a really simple text. An old damsel from the South received a prestigious and spoilt upbringing can't adapt to the changes that are occuring in greater America during the 50's as the nuovo riche comes through. She continues on living her expensive and coquettish lifestyle and ultimately loses all of her belongings, finally going insane by the end of the play.
Typically, English examiners would read what I've just written re summarised in 90% of the essays that they read. However, using the skills I obtained studying Literature, I was able to write an essay that focused solely on a minor character in the text, Allan Grey. He's a gay guy who masquerades as heterosexual, flirting with the protagonist in question, and when he gets busted for being homosexual he commits suicide. From doing Literature, I also realised that studying the author was important. I found out that he, too, was gay. So for my exam essay, I constructed a piece that argued that the character of Allan Grey, who DOESN'T serve a major character role in the book, NOR does he contribute to the plot in any significant way, was included for a specific reason. That specific reason is that the author wanted to proclaim the trials and tribulations of being homosexual in a society which primarily condoned heteronormativity. I can elaborate if people are interested, but I just included this to show that Literature can really improve the level of your textual analysis and your responses, and subsequently you can expect to get better marks.
I fully believe that people who don't absolutely LOVE books and philosophy and religion and the arts should just stick with mainstream English. I'd say that if you're pretty good at English coming through school, or maybe you just happen to have a proficiency for writing, or you read books as a past time, then Literature -could- be for you (save for the next paragraph I'm about to write). However, if you're considering doing Literature, then I can't endorse studying English simultaneously because I believe it's much easier for most Lit-savvy students to excel in. Take me for an example - 38 in Literature, which is a pretty respectable score, maybe top 20% of the state? And 48 in English, ranked about 100-200 in the state. A 10 point study score difference. Lit is hard, or at least it was for me, and English is comparitively easy.
Now I said moments ago that literature should be taken by those are decent and english, writing, and reading. I know a guy who took lit in Year 11 and by his standards he got an unfairly low study score for it. 33. And this guy is a prodigy at English and Literature and Philosophy, and he's doing Revolutions for VCE and everything. To this day I can't understand how he's not gotten a straight 50 SS in Literature given every piece of work of his that I've read. But it's happened. When he completes VCE this year and gets a 50 in English, then I'd have some ground to stand when I say that literature is still hard for people who love books and reading and all that stuff. But he's still doing it, so I have no ground to stand. Right now it's just my opinion that English is easier.
And it's easier still if you've done Lit simultaneously.
tl;dr pick English or do both, Lit will fuck you if you do it solo.
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great advice VT
(elaborate please on allan grey :D)
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great advice VT
(elaborate please on allan grey :D)
wow, you read through all of that.
sure.
Okay so, basically, the author Tennessee Williams was gay. In the times when the text was written ('50s America), people who were gay were often lobotomized because it was assumed a mental illness (coincidentally, his younger sister was also lobotomized, I think she had epilepsy). Of course, as you can imagine, Williams would have had major qualms with this. Just because of his sexuality, he could have been lynched or lobotomized, and obviously, those are undesirable.
If we observe the character of Allan Gray, we can ascertain a few things. I'll quickly summarise his role in the play... he is firstly introduced to us as one of Blanche's lovers. They are at a ball together, and he dissapears outside. Blanche notices he dissapears with a man, and she goes to investigate. She discovers he is gay when she finds him mackin' with another guy outside, and Allan subsequently commits suicide.
Now, this all occurs, at least in the movie, in about 10 seconds. But we can draw some pretty concrete conclusions about this:
1. Allan left the dance to go and make out with this guy - it's safe to assume he did so because he didn't want to be caught and get persecuted.
2. Allan is going out with Blanche - he's masquerading as a heterosexual to appear 'normal' in society - he doesn't want to be persecuted.
3. And lastly, he has to deal with the shame of two things
a. being caught out as being a homosexual
b. being caught cheating on his partner
c. being exposed as a fraud for going out with a member of a gender he's not attracted to
d. and specifically, being caught by the significant person he had been lying to, as opposed to any other random person
All of these inner shames and insecurities effectuate in his suicide.
Now, if we are to look at the broader scope of the text and examine the character of Allan Gray, he is but a blink in the eyes of the play. I think we can mostly agree that the play is primarily concerned with Blanche's descent into insanity, no? Well if we are to think of what Allan Gray does, he is one of the many memories which the protagonist Blanche attempts to repress - along with the hidden shame of losing the estate, etc. His character appears nowhere else throughout the text - it's just a minor point that the author touches on. Why? Why bother to include him? It seems such a minor memory, but there has to have been a reason - he didn't put it there by chance, it serves a function, but do we really think that the only ostensible function of Allan Gray's character is to catalyse the protagonists descent into madness?
Well, I thought about this for a while, and with the background knowledge I had of the text, I decided that Williams (the author, I'm speaking about) would have used Allan Gray for a purpose.
I argued, basically, that Allan Gray does not like the culture of heteronormativity which is prevalent in his society. He subsequently wrote a book dealing with mental illness (note: another issue passionate to him, perhaps because of his sister's mental condition?) and in the broad scope of the book, he decided to put a small, insignificant character which embodied himself and his troubles: Allan Gray. Whose to say that this is an invalid interpretation? Everything clicks. Allan Gray is disturbed about the culture of heteronormativity in the book, set in 50's America, just as Williams himself, at the time of writing in 50's America, would have despised the discrimination against homosexuals. He subsequently put the character into the text to stand for his beliefs.
You could take this even further by mentioning Allan's role within the book - a very insignificant one indeed, and link it through to the idea that Williams was scared of persecution himself. If he wrote a book saying "I HATE THE CULTURE OF HETERONORMATIVITY" then you can safely assume he'd be lynched or lobotomized. He, of course, had to make it subtle. So he used a small character in a small section of his large play, so that it would of course be discreet; perhaps often overlooked, but still there, available as perhaps a memento and testament to his own beliefs, or to educate his audience in whatever sly/subtle way possible to his qualms with society.
If you disagree, then let me put it to you this way: what if Allan Gray hadn't been gay? What if he was a straight, normal guy, who just decided to cheat on Blanche? That would have still served EXACTLY the same purpose - causing Blanche to endure another experience which she possesses no capabilities to cope with. It doesn't matter if he's gay or straight, it's still going to hurt Blanche with knowing that she'd been cheated on (although being cheated on by a gay man does in my opinion add insult to injury, but nonetheless you get the gist). If Allan Gray was straight, Blanche would still have descended into insanity for having been cheated on, as well as everything else that happens in the play. But what do you know, he is gay, that's a fact, and there's most probably a reason for that. You don't make a character in a book gay at the drop of a hat, for no reason as an author, and this is no exception.
And IMO that's significant enough to build a concrete essay around. And the examiners seemed to agree.
Hopefully, you're convinced.
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English Language represent over here!
In a nutshell, it's basically a technical approach to English, looking at uses of English in society and deconstructing spoken and written language - not the meaning, but the actual organisation of the words, sentences and paragraphs and the like. I found it damned interesting. And you get to pay out BS artists/politicians in your essays :D
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It's two very different subjects really, I once thought about whether I should take English or English Language, chose English because I loved to write and I really don't like technical sort of stuff
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great advice VT
(elaborate please on allan grey :D)
Ok,
Snip
And how exactly did you fit that in with last year's prompt? :o 'shared reality does not mean same worldview' or whatever it was.
coincidentally, his younger sister was also lobotomized, I think she had epilepsy
I'm amused you can make so much of Alan Grey (I think it is a perfectly valid interpretation, just in case I am creating confusion here) and yet be so dismissive of the connection between Blanche and Rose. Has it occurred to you that Streetcar might have biographical elements? That the events in it might actually be based on events from Williams' own life? I'm not sure if I should be more cryptic than that.
Also on the Lit engenders better VCE English abilities discussion point, I think I can vouch for that a little since I did Lit in year 11 and it certainly helped. One of the misconceptions Lit students have which I think is a problem is that they think that in order to do VCE English after doing Lit they will need to dumb down their writing to do well, while as you can obviously attest it is the opposite which is in fact, for the most part, true. My teacher did warn me a lot that my text responses need to focus more on the characters though, lol.
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great advice VT
(elaborate please on allan grey :D)
Ok,
Snip
And how exactly did you fit that in with last year's prompt? :o 'shared reality does not mean same worldview' or whatever it was.
The prompt was ‘Shared experience does not mean that people see things the same way.’ from last year's end of year exam
My C&P piece said that all authors incontrovertibly write their texts to educate their audiences to their opinions on society, whether they intend to or no. Just because Williams shared the experience of living in 50's America with all the other straight people, doesn't mean they saw eye to eye. Hence, he wrote a book, and in his book, his opinions are clearly present. (Cue discussion about Allan Gray and authors circumstances in society which takes up ~1.5 page paragraph)
I used other texts as well, my 4 paragraphs were books by different authors and the 'hidden messages' contained within that showed the relevant authors' opinions on their society. I think I used Persepolis by Marjane Satrapi and The Blind Side by Michael Lewis, and I can't remember the last book I used... might have been Cherry Orchard by Антон Ченов but that could have also just been a practice essay.
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Hmm, I'm thinking of making a be-all-and-end-all of picking between the 3 englishes thread/guide
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You should, it would save the servers about 1000000 exabytes and people having to keep wondering.
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Hmm, I'm thinking of making a be-all-and-end-all of picking between the 3 englishes thread/guide
So long as you say English Language should be picked at all costs :P :P
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Hmm, I'm thinking of making a be-all-and-end-all of picking between the 3 englishes thread/guide
So long as you say English Language should be picked at all costs :P :P
No.
The real VCE experience incorporates English. Don't be weak and step away from where the real challenge is at :P
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You may find this useful as well:
Which English is the easiest to get a high mark in?
English or English Language?
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Hmm, I'm thinking of making a be-all-and-end-all of picking between the 3 englishes thread/guide
So long as you say English Language should be picked at all costs :P :P
No.
The real VCE experience incorporates English. Don't be weak and step away from where the real challenge is at :P
Go do English Language, and then come back and say it's not a real challenge :P
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Hmm, I'm thinking of making a be-all-and-end-all of picking between the 3 englishes thread/guide
So long as you say English Language should be picked at all costs :P :P
No.
The real VCE experience incorporates English. Don't be weak and step away from where the real challenge is at :P
LOL.
English language is a good subject, I personally find it amazing! you look into spoken and written language, and in turn you get a good understanding on how language actually works and how people use it. its really made me think about how i text, email and message too, but at the same time its made me develop a dislike for people who always reply with mm, k, cool, whatever, nice, sweet. -more often that no express disinterest.... grr
generally they say if your a maths,music or science type kid than english language may suit you.
its like the mechanics of english. you dont dwell on grammar btw, thats a bit of a misunderstanding.
and you dont have to do oral sacs! or character bloody analysis! just analysis on written texts, spoken transcripts and essays on a given topic! its hard though. requires a lot of work.
+2 scaling as well...
as is lit, but totally diff. subjects.
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Hmm, I'm thinking of making a be-all-and-end-all of picking between the 3 englishes thread/guide
So long as you say English Language should be picked at all costs :P :P
No.
The real VCE experience incorporates English. Don't be weak and step away from where the real challenge is at :P
Go do English Language, and then come back and say it's not a real challenge :P
You raped elang! im surprised you didnt chip out a guide on that haha, i wouldve bought that too :P
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Conclusion: Eng lang is a cop-out for maths-sci students who are terrified of the real English :P
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Conclusion: Eng lang is a cop-out for maths-sci students who are terrified of the real English :P
Nah it's just a good opportunity to pay out BS - oh whoops I meant English essays :P
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Derrick Ha got 50 in English Language but got a 48 in mainstream English. Just putting that out there :P
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Derrick Ha got 50 in English Language but got a 48 in mainstream English. Just putting that out there :P
English is too mainstream. :P
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Derrick Ha got 50 in English Language but got a 48 in mainstream English. Just putting that out there :P
English is too mainstream. :P
Hipster.
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WOW. english language is definitely not easier than english. i'm on stuggle street over here.... :S
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VivaTequila what form did you use? Wait I'm guessing expository right?
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Derrick Ha got 50 in English Language but got a 48 in mainstream English. Just putting that out there :P
English is too mainstream. :P
----> Aiming for a 99.95
----> Realise you need a 50 in an English subject
----> Probably won't get 50 in English, the subject of the gods.
----> Oooh I know! I'll get a 50 in English Language (the jealous, pre-pubescent brother of English)
----> GREAT SUCCESS
Then, I'll pose as a hipster, stating that English is "too mainstream" to mask my true intentions..
Smart, Thushan :P
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Derrick Ha got 50 in English Language but got a 48 in mainstream English. Just putting that out there :P
English is too mainstream. :P
----> Aiming for a 99.95
----> Realise you need a 50 in an English subject
----> Probably won't get 50 in English, the subject of the gods.
----> Oooh I know! I'll get a 50 in English Language (the jealous, pre-pubescent brother of English)
----> Says I'll get a 38
----> GREAT SUCCESS
Then, I'll pose as a hipster, stating that English is "too mainstream" to mask my true intentions..
Smart, Thushan :P
Fixed.
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Derrick Ha got 50 in English Language but got a 48 in mainstream English. Just putting that out there :P
English is too mainstream. :P
----> Aiming for a 99.95
----> Realise you need a 50 in an English subject
----> Probably won't get 50 in English, the subject of the gods.
----> Oooh I know! I'll get a 50 in English Language (the jealous, pre-pubescent brother of English)
----> Says I'll get a 38
----> GREAT SUCCESS
Then, I'll pose as a hipster, stating that English is "too mainstream" to mask my true intentions..
Smart, Thushan :P
Fixed.
I don't get it?
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oh, you mustn't have been a member at that time haha, dw, thushan will get it :P
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I'm going to guess that he said he would get a 38, but of course got a 50?
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So did you guys only take in one context essay for the exam?
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I'm going to guess that he said he would get a 38, but of course got a 50?
Yeah
So did you guys only take in one context essay for the exam?
By 'take" I assume you meant memorise and/or know the general points of. I had 4.
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I'm going to guess that he said he would get a 38, but of course got a 50?
Lol nice.
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You'll never let me go for that will ya? Go eat some Vegemite will ya LOL
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You'll never let me go for that will ya? Go eat some Vegemite will ya LOL
Haha, never! :D
I just might actually do that (but it tastes awful) :(
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WOW. english language is definitely not easier than english. i'm on stuggle street over here.... :S
See!? And Kaille I was there too dw, best I could say is try make your OWN models of how language works - and also the most important thing is good examples!
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Vegemite, butter and cheese sandwiches are the best!
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Vegemite -> Yoghurt -> Porridge
omnomonom
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VivaTequila what form did you use? Wait I'm guessing expository right?
Yep. It was expository, but really, it's not your standard expository because it was creative as all hell - I am pretty confident that the examiner wouldn't have read another essay like it.
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VivaTequila what form did you use? Wait I'm guessing expository right?
Yep. It was expository, but really, it's not your standard expository because it was creative as all hell - I am pretty confident that the examiner wouldn't have read another essay like it.
Hmm..interesting, how did you structure it?
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VivaTequila what form did you use? Wait I'm guessing expository right?
Yep. It was expository, but really, it's not your standard expository because it was creative as all hell - I am pretty confident that the examiner wouldn't have read another essay like it.
Hmm..interesting, how did you structure it?
Intro: authors have reasons for writing novels - nothing happens by chance
Para 1: streetcar and williams and allan gray
Para 2: other book, author, exposition
Para 3: same as para 2 with new book
Para 4: same as para 2 with new book
Conclusion: authors always write to educate their audience to their qualms with society
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I read the first post (nothing else) and it seems that you are really emphasising the difficulty of literature...
I do literature and not English. I am not a strong English student and I also hate reading. But I am still hoping for a 30-35 in literature. I hope I don't regret this choice...
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I read the first post (nothing else) and it seems that you are really emphasising the difficulty of literature...
I do literature and not English. I am not a strong English student and I also hate reading. But I am still hoping for a 30-35 in literature. I hope I don't regret this choice...
Why did you choose Literature then?
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I read the first post (nothing else) and it seems that you are really emphasising the difficulty of literature...
I do literature and not English. I am not a strong English student and I also hate reading. But I am still hoping for a 30-35 in literature. I hope I don't regret this choice...
Literature isn't really more difficult than English, don't let it bother you. I found it a lot easier, to be honest, but it comes down to the individual. If you want any tips feel free to hit me up.
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WOW. english language is definitely not easier than english. i'm on stuggle street over here.... :S
See!? And Kaille I was there too dw, best I could say is try make your OWN models of how language works - and also the most important thing is good examples!
can you please elaborate on making own models thushan!? sounds like a great idea which ive never thought about!
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Bhootnike - like for instance - I derived a concept that language, mere words and sounds cannot irritate or be seen as low-class or whatever, it's simply the associations - and merely associations. I used that concept in all of my essays. Another example is when you look at jargon, euphemism, etc etc see they have features in common - they all have SPECIFIC FEATURES that make the language register SUITABLE for the purpose. see how I used a framework to explain everything? Everything makes MUCH more sense!
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Bhootnike - like for instance - I derived a concept that language, mere words and sounds cannot irritate or be seen as low-class or whatever, it's simply the associations - and merely associations. I used that concept in all of my essays. Another example is when you look at jargon, euphemism, etc etc see they have features in common - they all have SPECIFIC FEATURES that make the language register SUITABLE for the purpose. see how I used a framework to explain everything? Everything makes MUCH more sense!
Being creative and original got you good marks? Who would have thought?! :P
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Bhootnike - like for instance - I derived a concept that language, mere words and sounds cannot irritate or be seen as low-class or whatever, it's simply the associations - and merely associations. I used that concept in all of my essays. Another example is when you look at jargon, euphemism, etc etc see they have features in common - they all have SPECIFIC FEATURES that make the language register SUITABLE for the purpose. see how I used a framework to explain everything? Everything makes MUCH more sense!
:|
im about to commit a deadly sin.
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Isn't that just something we learn in English language anyway tho ? like, my teacher has talked about both those points hahah. haven't done many essays at school yet, so haven't applied it to any of my work :p
mm, tbh im sort of confused :p I don't get what you mean by using a framework now hahha
do you mean to say like, if through my study, I establish a theory of my own which I can backup through evidence, that will earn good marks in an essay ?
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:|
im about to commit a deadly sin.
Mate, that's an understatement.
You just attempted to contradict Thushan.
Good luck buddy :P
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:|
im about to commit a deadly sin.
Mate, that's an understatement.
You just attempted to contradict Thushan.
Good luck buddy :P
Maybe he'll leave some peace in my soul cause we're both curries? :p you know ? sorta like mates rates!
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Bhootnike - like for instance - I derived a concept that language, mere words and sounds cannot irritate or be seen as low-class or whatever, it's simply the associations - and merely associations. I used that concept in all of my essays. Another example is when you look at jargon, euphemism, etc etc see they have features in common - they all have SPECIFIC FEATURES that make the language register SUITABLE for the purpose. see how I used a framework to explain everything? Everything makes MUCH more sense!
:|
im about to commit a deadly sin.
------------------------------
Isn't that just something we learn in English language anyway tho ? like, my teacher has talked about both those points hahah. haven't done many essays at school yet, so haven't applied it to any of my work :p
mm, tbh im sort of confused :p I don't get what you mean by using a framework now hahha
do you mean to say like, if through my study, I establish a theory of my own which I can backup through evidence, that will earn good marks in an essay ?
Yup - it's talked about in class, but I don't think its emphasised enough. I'm talking about the realisation that language and judgement is basically a mix-and-match and has basically NOTHING to do with intrinsic properties of sounds...
As for the second point - was it talked about in your class? It wasn't talked about in mine to any great depth - I had to work that out for myself... :/
LOL what you mean by deadly sin??
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What about the Bouba/Kiki Effect?
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Ohh okay. I get you hahaah :p
and yeah, well actually, the second point in particular has been rubbed into our faces all throughout the year! ~ e.g. jargon has many features, namely on of marking group identity, and also allowing for more efficient communication.
So classic case I find is for example, consider a gaming lounge, where a bunch of computer kids talking away about their GTX-1000 and the i.c7, 16gb ram and 1tB hard-disk. This allows for more precise and efficient communication, and most importantly, this language use is a part of the 'gaming' register!
deadly sin - i hate contradicting you Thushan. that's all ;)
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You've got a good grasp of the stuff I have to say! And a good teacher :)
I actually had to make the model for myself because I had to take the class for a couple of weeks...