Medicine FAQ / So You Want To Be A Doctor

[whys]

Hello! I'm an aspiring medical student and I am a little confused about what happens after doing bachelor of medical science, doctor of medicine, then internship. Do you have to study a course for a further 3 years to become a GP??

[DBA-144]

I came back to tidy up my inbox and stumbled in here for the nostalgia. I guess my optimistic prediction of the media improving their coverage of healthcare didn't eventuate, but there certainly has been interesting reporting recently on the twin issues of doctor burnout and workplace culture.

If anybody has any particular questions about the industry after graduation and training, I'm happy to answer them before I go away again!

After going through the process of becoming certified, progressing in the field, etc. would you say it is something you would do again/suggest to others?
In your opinion, what is the best and worst part of it? Do you enjoy the constant opportunity to learn and teach in a constantly changing work environment?
How important is it to have contacts in the industry?

Overall, would you say that the stress/workload can become overwhelming at times?

Thanks (sorry if this is in the wrong place)

[Russ]

Hello! I'm an aspiring medical student and I am a little confused about what happens after doing bachelor of medical science, doctor of medicine, then internship. Do you have to study a course for a further 3 years to become a GP??

All the university pathways are different but converge on internship, which is a common year. After that point, all the pathways diverge again and there is no single route. Most people spend some years working in the hospital system in some capacity - locum, unaccredited training, exploring interests etc. If (when) you wish to practice independently, then you need to train as a specialist and the minimum time to do this is 3 years (for general practice).

After going through the process of becoming certified, progressing in the field, etc. would you say it is something you would do again/suggest to others?
In your opinion, what is the best and worst part of it? Do you enjoy the constant opportunity to learn and teach in a constantly changing work environment?
How important is it to have contacts in the industry?

Overall, would you say that the stress/workload can become overwhelming at times?

I certainly have no burning regrets. I'm fairly happy with my life and choices, all things considered. I'm sure there was scope to do something different, which would have made me happier, but the risk would have been much higher and medicine certainly afforded me the opportunity to be socially stable whilst still doing something I enjoy. I don't think many high school students know much about medicine and I would strongly recommend investigating more thoroughly than just attending a university open day, but it's hard to convince 17 year olds to pass on the opportunity if it turns up.

I'm not sure what I will be doing in 10 years, but I'm certain that if it's not medicine then it's definitely not something I would have been able to predict 10 years ago. I like the novelty of what I do, where I get to work with different people regularly and rarely approach issues in the same way twice. I am certainly extremely invested in education and it's a major part of my job, both with patients and junior colleagues.

The importance of contacts depends on what you plan to do and can range from essential to irrelevant. Stress and workload are usually informed by the department and hospital you work at (eg did they hire 1 or 2 people for the 1.5 person job etc.). There are huge cultural issues around not complaining about challenges and working unpaid overtime, but it's hard for me to compare these to other white collar industries. I do think that the nature of healthcare provision and the industry model does make it much harder to actually address these issues, but that's certainly not to say that it's impossible to resolve them.

[Lear]

Do you believe that the coverage of Dr Kadota’s experience will have an impact on how doctors are treated or will this just be another spark that will fizzle out in a few weeks?

Do you think there are specific specialities that are relatively immune to such experiences?

What do you personally think can be done to improve hospitals and their treatment of doctors and how would such a change come about?

[Russ]

Do you believe that the coverage of Dr Kadota’s experience will have an impact on how doctors are treated or will this just be another spark that will fizzle out in a few weeks?

I'll be shocked if anything substantial changes across the industry solely as a result of her articles. At some point the critical mass required to drive major change will be reached and she will have been part of that, but there are so many factors affecting this over such a long time horizon that I couldn't say it would have changed because of her. That's not to say the coverage will fizzle out and have been wasted, it will still have contributed to minor changes or improved participation in smaller initatives etc.

Do you think there are specific specialities that are relatively immune to such experiences?

None are immune. Some are better/worse than others but this isn't going to consistently be the case, either within a service or across services.

What do you personally think can be done to improve hospitals and their treatment of doctors and how would such a change come about?

Fundamental restructuring of the training model
The political will to actually take action (from external forces)
Changing of the mindset within the industry

I openly admit that I am cynical about this issue, and there have been improvements to working conditions but in regards to addressing the root causes I think the above is necessary. All three are necessary as well - the new Victorian EBA for doctors is a good example, as it codified various requirements (eg 10 hours off) that doctors are ignoring for fear of harming their career prospects.

I don't mean to be too bleak, as there are plenty of enjoyable experiences inside hospitals and I do look forward to going to work every day (maybe that's the Stockholm Syndrome though).

[Lear]

I really appreciate the insight, Russ. Thank you.

[Russ]

I don't want to dissuade you from the career or make it seem like the problems are intractable, but there is very much a prisoner's dilemma within the industry. I think a large part of addressing it is staff not pulling up the ladder behind them, so it's important it's talked about.

[Lear]

Oh absolutely. It’s important to me to have a proper understanding of what I am getting into and not go in with a romanticised, idyllic view of everything.
It’s good that you are upfront and transparent. Thank you for that.

[JR_StudyEd]

Hi! So I am seriously *this* close to wanting to drop Methods. In terms of getting into Monash Med, it won't really affect things too much. I am 100% aware of undergrad pre-med courses like Biomed and Science which do require Methods, but I don't feel like they're even worth it anymore, even if I (very likely) don't get into Med. With that context, my questions are:

1) How much maths do I really need for medical school?
2) How much maths do psychiatrists use as part of their occupation?
3) Any alternative undergrad courses?

[vox nihili]

Hi! So I am seriously *this* close to wanting to drop Methods. In terms of getting into Monash Med, it won't really affect things too much. I am 100% aware of undergrad pre-med courses like Biomed and Science which do require Methods, but I don't feel like they're even worth it anymore, even if I (very likely) don't get into Med. With that context, my questions are:

1) How much maths do I really need for medical school?
2) How much maths do psychiatrists use as part of their occupation?
3) Any alternative undergrad courses?

1) There's not a lot of maths in medical school, but certainly some of the concepts you learn in methods are relevant.
2) Depends. Day by day they probably don't use a lot, but certainly not having a maths background diminishes your understanding of the science and, critically, diminishes your understanding of statistics.
3) UniMelb is looking at removing their prereqs (can't say it will be relevant to you, but might be) and Deakin doesn't have them, so you acn do any course and still get into med.

[JR_StudyEd]

Is someone able to give me some general pros and cons of studying undergrad medicine straight out of Year 12?

[cooldude123]

Is someone able to give me some general pros and cons of studying undergrad medicine straight out of Year 12?

As a preface positions for undergrad medicine are quite limited and if you do find yourself in a position where you have an offer for undergrad medicine, personally I'd think it'd be a tough decision to forego that offer for a chance to apply for a postgrad position (but of course there are other very legitimate reasons to decline an offer including not wanting to study med at all/Chancellors Program at Melbourne).

Other pros for undergrad/high school direct entry:
Shorter (but a few years imo isn't a real waste of time - you're still making friends, developing life skills etc even if it does feel like that from a high school perspective)
Strictly speaking - an extra year (or two) studying medicine in an undergrad course (4 year postgrad are strictly speaking more compressed/rushed but they are still designed to teach you everything about being a competent doctor - and this applies less if you're going to do biomed degree beforehand)

Cons:
Less ability to explore other academic interests (though there are some options like Diploma of Liberal Arts/Languages at Monash, it's substantially less than completing a degree in something completely unrelated at uni)
Not knowing if med is really for you (this is an important one - the journey to be a doctor is a lifelong one and having more time to decide can be valuable)
Maturity (jury's out on this one - personally think it's very possible to be a competent and mature junior doctor at 23 and the consensus is that graduates from both courses function at comparable levels)
Stress - you do hit the ground running in the preclinical years of med so if you're feeling Year 12 was stressful it can sometimes feel like more of the same if not tougher

Obviously a biased view of things - but I personally feel like taking time to think about what you really want from a career in medicine, whilst recognising that a decision you make now isn't going to be a permanent one that will be forever unchangeable can be helpful.

[excal]

There's no wasted learning, and a lot is to be said for life experience - but it doesn't make or break a doctor.

I have no regrets with my career change. I would have made a terrible doctor at age 22, so I'm glad I spent (quite a few) extra years rounding myself out.

[Lear]

For Medicine at Monash, can you do Literature as your "English" Subject and would you still have to get a 30 for it?
Also, which would be more beneficial if you're looking into getting into Medicine: English or Literature?

I think you can do Literature (not 100% sure) as it is considered English equivalent but you will need to get 30.

In regards to beneficial to getting into medicine, really there’s no benefit to either. Just do what you can get a higher score in...

[darkz]

What is the maximum time that you would travel to do medicine at Monash Uni (undergrad)?
Would 2 hours on public transport each way be too much? And which campus do you study at exactly?

ngl, I probably wouldn't go to Monash if I had to travel 4 hours every day - I'd just go to Melbourne (assuming that's significantly closer). If you could, I'd obviously consider renting nearby with a couple of friends. For undergraduate medicine, you study down at the Clayton campus.