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March 29, 2024, 08:02:27 pm

Author Topic: Are you studying law - why?  (Read 6196 times)  Share 

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HossRyams

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Are you studying law - why?
« on: June 06, 2013, 10:36:06 pm »
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So I was just wondering... What are your thoughts on law school and post-law school? How should you decide whether law is best for you?

I've wanted to study law for a while - that's kind of been the plan after exploring the sciences (particularly in work experience) and found that I definitely wasn't cut for it. When realising I'm more a humanities person, I came to the conclusion that I'd aim for an Arts/Law course at Monash (or Arts @ Melbourne -> JD) after having talked with lawyers, visiting a corporate law firm (Corrs Chambers Westgarth) and meeting various lawyers with different specialisations and being recommended it over and over. I sincerely enjoyed my visits and talks and it has encouraged me to look further into this option but...

I'm just really worried that I'm among the apparently many people who THINK they're suited for law, but isn't. I've done a fair amount of research online and it's been the most frightening thing. People seem to regret their decision in enrolling into law school (seems to be mostly in the US though..?) and they make it seem as if every student who thinks they're cut for law is about to make a grave mistake. Stress/depression/debt/not enough time... A lot of these common themes are consistently appearing in my research and making me doubt my choices.

The annoying part of it all is I'll never unless I try. The lawyers I've met said that law school is just that dreadful thing you have to get through but it's worth it... But is that simply because they've landed a job? Are job openings that limited? I don't want to just foolishly believe I'm the exception but I don't want to miss the opportunity either.

Thanks in advance. :)
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ninwa

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2013, 11:17:22 pm »
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Honestly, with all that research and experience, you are going into law school far more informed than I would say 99% of first year law students.

People in the US regret it because:
1) they do not have HECS over there; instead, they must borrow exorbitant amounts of money to pay off their school fees, which carry interest and must be repaid regardless of how much you earn (unlike HECS debts); and
2) the lawyer job market in the US is atrocious, meaning lots of graduates can't actually get the income they need to pay off those loans (this should give you a rough idea)

The job market in Australia is nowhere near as bad, although it is obviously still challenging particularly if you are aiming to go into a top or mid tier firm (like Corrs).

Stress: yeah, it's stressful, but it's not as bad as it sounds particularly if you're only reading about US experience. Their law schools sound far more stressful than Australian ones. Workload can be high if you are aiming for top marks but it's also possible to cruise through semester doing nothing (because most law subjects do not have assessments throughout semester), cram everything in the last week before exams and do relatively well (do not recommend this though, it's playing Russian roulette with your degree).

Depression: lawyers have one of the highest suicide rates I believe (after dentists). This I assume primarily stems from the lack of work/life balance that comes with being a high-flying lawyer, but that's not the only career path you can take. If you are talking about depression in law school I honestly don't know what the statistics are, but Monash has some good support systems for that.

Debt: HECS is amazing. Government pays some of your fees and the rest is on an interest-free loan (subject to inflation only) which you only pay back after you reach a certain level of income (around $50k/year from the top of my head). You really don't need to worry about this. Australian university students are some of the luckiest in the world.

Jobs: considering that every university in Victoria offers a law degree, you can imagine how many law graduates there are every year. So yes, competition for internships and junior lawyer jobs is quite intense. But a law degree also opens up pathways to other careers (see the link in my signature for some ideas).

Feel free to ask more questions!
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2013, 11:45:25 pm »
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Honestly, with all that research and experience, you are going into law school far more informed than I would say 99% of first year law students.

People in the US regret it because:
1) they do not have HECS over there; instead, they must borrow exorbitant amounts of money to pay off their school fees, which carry interest and must be repaid regardless of how much you earn (unlike HECS debts); and
2) the lawyer job market in the US is atrocious, meaning lots of graduates can't actually get the income they need to pay off those loans (this should give you a rough idea)

The job market in Australia is nowhere near as bad, although it is obviously still challenging particularly if you are aiming to go into a top or mid tier firm (like Corrs).

Stress: yeah, it's stressful, but it's not as bad as it sounds particularly if you're only reading about US experience. Their law schools sound far more stressful than Australian ones. Workload can be high if you are aiming for top marks but it's also possible to cruise through semester doing nothing (because most law subjects do not have assessments throughout semester), cram everything in the last week before exams and do relatively well (do not recommend this though, it's playing Russian roulette with your degree).

Depression: lawyers have one of the highest suicide rates I believe (after dentists). This I assume primarily stems from the lack of work/life balance that comes with being a high-flying lawyer, but that's not the only career path you can take. If you are talking about depression in law school I honestly don't know what the statistics are, but Monash has some good support systems for that.

Debt: HECS is amazing. Government pays some of your fees and the rest is on an interest-free loan (subject to inflation only) which you only pay back after you reach a certain level of income (around $50k/year from the top of my head). You really don't need to worry about this. Australian university students are some of the luckiest in the world.

Jobs: considering that every university in Victoria offers a law degree, you can imagine how many law graduates there are every year. So yes, competition for internships and junior lawyer jobs is quite intense. But a law degree also opens up pathways to other careers (see the link in my signature for some ideas).

Feel free to ask more questions!

Thanks so much for your response! I was actually reading through all your law-related posts, and I looked through that 2011 Reading Guide while you replied to this post haha! :)

That's definitely relieving, but I suppose my concern is how I'm supposed to know whether this is the right decision. How did you know you wanted to study law?

And does it really steal your time that much? I've always thought I've been fairly good at managing my time and having a good balance in my life - but I'm afraid that's only because I'm in year 12, and I have 4 subjects this year, leaving me with time to do sport, music, see friends, be an internet junkie and still study quite a bit. Do you find studying law far more difficult than VCE?

But yeah, I'm not entirely set on being a solicitor or anything. It seems the degree aims to enhance a style of thinking close to my own (ofc mine is still noob :D) so I thought that I should take it and then after having studied it for a while, then decide which career is best for me :O

Hmm I may or may not flood you with questions in the near future hahaha :D

Edit - typo
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 07:41:34 am by youshine »
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Art Vandelay

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 12:02:10 am »
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for what its worth, im doing law because I could see myself working in a lot of fields that require/would heavily benefit from a law degree. also, and you probably know this, but if you do arts/law then you only have 2 law subjects per semester for first year, so most people learn to manage their time. having said that, cramming is a lot harder even for the first year subjects im doing, when compared to cramming for vce, as it's a lot easier to fall behind cos theres more independence regarding lectures/doing readings
but socialising/study balance was easier for me to achieve at uni than at high school
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 12:11:38 am »
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for what its worth, im doing law because I could see myself working in a lot of fields that require/would heavily benefit from a law degree. also, and you probably know this, but if you do arts/law then you only have 2 law subjects per semester for first year, so most people learn to manage their time. having said that, cramming is a lot harder even for the first year subjects im doing, when compared to cramming for vce, as it's a lot easier to fall behind cos theres more independence regarding lectures/doing readings
but socialising/study balance was easier for me to achieve at uni than at high school

Thanks for your reply!

I'm not really a cramming person... (Usually I'm organised but... Then again, still a year 12 student!) Do all students essentially have to cram because there's just so much content or is it possible to be organised enough to handle the subjects at a good pace? (Is that a stupid question? bahaha) I just keep hearing about the absurd amount of readings and the heavy workload -> cramming, oh, and 'basically living in the library'. :|

It's nice to hear an improved balance by uni though!
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Art Vandelay

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2013, 12:22:53 am »
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umm, a good number of friends ive made are in the same boat as me, cramming, cos they didnt go to lectures and do readings. but there are obviously heaps of people that are organised and motivated and really enjoying what they're studying. I spoke to a friend in my tute about this a few weeks ago, and she said that her good study habits in yr12 carried over and so it was more manageable.
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ninwa

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2013, 04:42:20 pm »
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Glad you found my ramblings useful! :P

I didn't and never wanted to study law. My first preference was medicine (which I screwed up the interviews for), my 2nd was straight arts. However I got a 99+ ATAR and my parents flat out would not allow me to "waste" my ATAR on a straight arts degree, so here we are (and hence this post of mine).

If you get the required ATAR, you can always go into arts/law and drop the law part in semester 2 if you decide you don't like it.

You can also go to a few lectures to see what it's all about. Nobody takes attendance or anything and unless you get SUPER unlucky, you won't ever get called upon to answer anything (and even if you get that unlucky you can just say "I don't know", lecturers are used to students not doing the readings and are generally pretty chill). Next semester I'd be happy to look up some lecture times for you :)

Anything in university is more difficult than VCE. Law is difficult mainly because it is a style of learning which no VCE subject really prepares you for - and the style of exams is also something you'll never have run into before. Of course there is also a lot of sometimes very complex content but as someone who tends to cram everything in the week before exams, I haven't found it impossibly difficult to understand and I haven't failed anything yet :P (touch wood)

I have really shitty time management (which is why I have to cram every semester) and I still manage to work 2 days per week (full days i.e. 9-5:30), volunteer, do music comps and concerts and help with AN while still studying full time. BTW FYI: the govt still sees it as full time study if you do 3 subjects a semester rather than 4

That's good that you've got your career options open, because a law degree really does open up doors.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 04:43:59 pm by ninwa »
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2013, 11:29:41 am »
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Glad you found my ramblings useful! :P

I didn't and never wanted to study law. My first preference was medicine (which I screwed up the interviews for), my 2nd was straight arts. However I got a 99+ ATAR and my parents flat out would not allow me to "waste" my ATAR on a straight arts degree, so here we are (and hence this post of mine).

If you get the required ATAR, you can always go into arts/law and drop the law part in semester 2 if you decide you don't like it.

You can also go to a few lectures to see what it's all about. Nobody takes attendance or anything and unless you get SUPER unlucky, you won't ever get called upon to answer anything (and even if you get that unlucky you can just say "I don't know", lecturers are used to students not doing the readings and are generally pretty chill). Next semester I'd be happy to look up some lecture times for you :)

Anything in university is more difficult than VCE. Law is difficult mainly because it is a style of learning which no VCE subject really prepares you for - and the style of exams is also something you'll never have run into before. Of course there is also a lot of sometimes very complex content but as someone who tends to cram everything in the week before exams, I haven't found it impossibly difficult to understand and I haven't failed anything yet :P (touch wood)

I have really shitty time management (which is why I have to cram every semester) and I still manage to work 2 days per week (full days i.e. 9-5:30), volunteer, do music comps and concerts and help with AN while still studying full time. BTW FYI: the govt still sees it as full time study if you do 3 subjects a semester rather than 4

That's good that you've got your career options open, because a law degree really does open up doors.

I see, if I could see some lecture times that'd be great!! Actually I do have a friend in his first-year, maybe I could ask if I could join in on one of them haha.

Also, if I were to decide to drop law, would I be able to pick anything else up or do anything afterwards to give me more qualifications? Or would I just end up with only an Arts degree? (I can see why that's not ideal haha)
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brenden

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2013, 01:56:40 pm »
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You would definitely be able to pick up another degree after dropping law. You might lose some time depending on what degree and the requirements etc etc, but so long as your weighted average is high enough (which it will be; you seem conscientious), you'll have a lot of flexibility in the uni system.
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2013, 02:53:57 pm »
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You would definitely be able to pick up another degree after dropping law. You might lose some time depending on what degree and the requirements etc etc, but so long as your weighted average is high enough (which it will be; you seem conscientious), you'll have a lot of flexibility in the uni system.

I see, thanks! So would I be able to pick up anything provided I meet its VCE-related requirements? Or are there particular degrees (say, more difficult ones) I cannot take unless I start it in first-year?
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ninwa

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2013, 03:40:08 pm »
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If you drop a degree and pick up a new one you'd be starting that one in first year

So say you go into arts/law, drop law for commerce - you'd be doing 2nd year arts subjects and 1st year commerce subjects

I'm not sure if they still care about pre-requisites for internal transfers, you might need to contact Monash and ask them
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2013, 03:49:17 pm »
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Okay awesome. Thanks for all your contributions, you've put my mind at ease. I think, for me, it'll be worth at least having a shot at law school, so hopefully I can get in!! :)
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2013, 06:53:40 pm »
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OH WAIT, one more question - I've read that you can study a year in Italy. Do you need to be an exceptional student (it says "an average of at least 55% across all Law units")? Do you know anyone who undertook the study program and whether they found it helpful for their degree etc?

:)
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ninwa

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2013, 07:32:25 pm »
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Are you sure it's 55% and not 65%? 55 seems particularly low, even for law. (Then again, a high credit average will net you 3rd or 2nd class honours in law, so...)

Nonetheless, in my experience, 55% average (i.e. mid-pass) is not extremely difficult to achieve.

Everyone I know who went to Prato really enjoyed it. Since it's a Monash campus, it's not as difficult to get credit for the units you study (compared to if you went to any other civil law jurisdiction - since it's a totally different system of law it's really hard to get those subjects recognised by the Monash law faculty).

I'm not sure what you mean by helpful to your degree - it doesn't really add much to your resume (I can't  imagine that you'd even put it on your resume in the first place). If you choose to do it, do it for the amazing experience of studying in Europe, where you can hop on a train and be in a different country in 3 hours, rather than any misconceptions of prestige :)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 07:35:47 pm by ninwa »
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HossRyams

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Re: Are you studying law - why?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2013, 07:45:23 pm »
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Are you sure it's 55% and not 65%? 55 seems particularly low, even for law. (Then again, a high credit average will net you 3rd or 2nd class honours in law, so...)

Nonetheless, in my experience, 55% average (i.e. mid-pass) is not extremely difficult to achieve.

Everyone I know who went to Prato really enjoyed it. Since it's a Monash campus, it's not as difficult to get credit for the units you study (compared to if you went to any other civil law jurisdiction - since it's a totally different system of law it's really hard to get those subjects recognised by the Monash law faculty).

I'm not sure what you mean by helpful to your degree - it doesn't really add much to your resume (I can't  imagine that you'd even put it on your resume in the first place). If you choose to do it, do it for the amazing experience of studying in Europe, where you can hop on a train and be in a different country in 3 hours, rather than any misconceptions of prestige :)

The eligibility requirements on the website say 55%!
And yes I really want to do it for the experience, but was just wondering if I'd be at any disadvantage, or if I'd miss out on anything from doing it. But if that's not the case, I'll definitely try out for that!
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 08:06:42 pm by youshine »
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