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brenden

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Mooting
« on: January 31, 2014, 04:10:36 pm »
+3
After finishing the thread, I realise there's a lot more questions that I thought there would be. If anyone can provide me with a resource that will allow me to search for the answers and save your time, that'd be great. Also, one million thanks and one trillion blessings on your first born for anyone that takes the time to say what they can :)
Also, if you have information that doesn't relate to any of the questions, I'd be totally happy for random bits of information :)
Ty ty


Hey everyone :)

I've had a few casual conversations with a friend about mooting - enough for me to realise that I want to win ;) participate in as many moots as possible to hone my skill and increase job prospects.

I've done a search on AN (and Wikipedia lel) and I've garnered that:
I should definitely be mooting (alongside other activities such as karate in the garage)
In first year, I should do the general moot and get owned by third years, then win the first year moot later in the year.
Mooting is time consuming and very demanding (wow many excited such procrastinate).

I've just got some general questions, but I'm totally happy to take as much random or anecdotal evidence as possible. Any and all advice and comments are welcome; I'm perfectly capable of filtering out things that I might not need and sponging things that are relevant!

So, my friend said that mooting has really pedantic/unspoken rules. From memory, I think she said that "With the greatest respect, your honour" was really insulting, but "With respect, your honour"was how you challenged the judge without being disrespectful.
If this is the case - what are the secret sentences that will help? Or, is there some sort of resource where I can read about mooting and how to do it like a boss?

Exactly how competitive does it get? Are there simply mooting juggernauts that usually take out all of the competitions and have been mooting on their daddy's knee since they were negative six years old, or is it a case of "most dedicated, most wins"?

Are there opportunities for us to learn how to moot or to practice with someone that can give us feedback prior to a moot, or through the semester? I'm thinking like, the ol' PE teacher might run "how to play basketball" every Friday in the gym at lunch time, type thing? If not, how do we get awesome at mooting in an efficient manner? (I say efficient manner instead of 'quickest time possible' because I'm not exactly after shortcuts, just things to do). Obviously, doing comps will be the best thing to do, but other than that?

What's the dress code like?

Can a bad moot somehow damage your Big Law Student Guy reputation and hinder chances at other opportunities?

What's the criteria to win/do well? I mean, is it about how well you present your side's arguments? Is it about how logically compelling your argument is, or about how well you know the law surrounding the moot's topic?

What are some of the tricks they throw at you? My friend said that she spent x amount of time talking about Case Y, and then the judge said something like 'Okay, fair enough, but what about Case Z?' (which my friend hadn't prepared for), and she was a bit shocked. She later learned that you're supposed to evade the question somehow, rather than actually talk about Case Z. Is this true? Are there any other things that they can catch you out with?

What are the mechanics of mooting? How long do you get to prepare? How do you sign up?  Do you choose your own team? If so, how many to a team? Would you personally recommend working in a team that you think you'd be good friends with, or working in a team full of people that you think will be amazing at mooting? I'm inclined to go with the first option (make friends and moot with them), on the basis that the teamwork might be more effective.

Should there ever be a case where I sacrifice some marks on an assignment to prep more for mooting? I recognise this is a question that depends on so many variables, but  I guess I'm asking just exactly how important mooting is. Does it have some special status above other extracurricular activities (thus perhaps worth taking a grade hit for it), or is it just anther activity?

I'm running out of questions but I'll come back when I think of more.
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ninwa

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Re: Mooting
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2014, 01:18:00 am »
+3
Quote
So, my friend said that mooting has really pedantic/unspoken rules. From memory, I think she said that "With the greatest respect, your honour" was really insulting, but "With respect, your honour"was how you challenged the judge without being disrespectful.
If this is the case - what are the secret sentences that will help? Or, is there some sort of resource where I can read about mooting and how to do it like a boss?

Huh, I guess I've been at law school for too long because that is obvious to me. Damn! Sorry, I'm sure I do have "secret sentences" but they seem so normal to me now I can't actually think of any off the top of my head. Will have a think about it and come back later. If you're doing the first year moot they'll probably be more lenient about it too (although I've had some friends suffer some dickhead "judges" who were extremely rude back).

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Exactly how competitive does it get?

When I did it the organisers (can't remember if LSS or faculty) issued an official warning against people who removed relevant materials from the library so other mooters couldn't use them. Just to give you an idea. Law students are dicks. However I highly doubt any other first year will know any more about mooting than you.

Quote
Are there opportunities for us to learn how to moot or to practice with someone that can give us feedback prior to a moot, or through the semester? I'm thinking like, the ol' PE teacher might run "how to play basketball" every Friday in the gym at lunch time, type thing? If not, how do we get awesome at mooting in an efficient manner?

Practice and watching other people. I can't remember much about when I did it but I'm fairly sure the first year moot information sheet also contains some tips on what the hell you're meant to do.

AFAIK there isn't really a mooting practice group sort of thing. Go to the finals of the mooting comps and see how the pros do it I guess. Or just rock up to the County Court when a trial is going on and watch how the barristers do it. :)

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What's the dress code like?

Formal suits, absolutely. What you would wear as a lawyer going to court.

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Can a bad moot somehow damage your Big Law Student Guy reputation and hinder chances at other opportunities?

Fuck no, nobody remembers or cares :P

Quote
What's the criteria to win/do well?

I think it's quality of arguments including whether you have relevant and correct precedent backing up your argument, how well you answer the questions asked of you by the "judge" (usually a later year law student or a lawyer, it's only a real judge when it gets to the finals), and I guess how well you speak too.

Quote
What are some of the tricks they throw at you? My friend said that she spent x amount of time talking about Case Y, and then the judge said something like 'Okay, fair enough, but what about Case Z?' (which my friend hadn't prepared for), and she was a bit shocked. She later learned that you're supposed to evade the question somehow, rather than actually talk about Case Z. Is this true? Are there any other things that they can catch you out with?

Yeah I remember after I talked about case X my "judge" said something like "well the facts of case X appear to have differed from this one, can you discuss that further" and I was like oh fuck I didn't even look that closely into the facts, only the legal principle. If you need to evade then maybe pull out the "with respect, your Honour, we can distinguish that case because XYZ / it is our submission that case X is the focus point because XYZ / etc."

Quote
What are the mechanics of mooting? How long do you get to prepare? How do you sign up?  Do you choose your own team? If so, how many to a team? Would you personally recommend working in a team that you think you'd be good friends with, or working in a team full of people that you think will be amazing at mooting?

Can't remember exactly how long but it wasn't a lot of time. We were all extremely stressed!

You can choose your own team although I think they do provide for those who don't have friends / don't know anybody.

Would definitely recommend doing it with friends, we kept each other sane. If you're super hellbent on winning then you could be more strategic about picking your team I suppose

Quote
Should there ever be a case where I sacrifice some marks on an assignment to prep more for mooting? I recognise this is a question that depends on so many variables, but  I guess I'm asking just exactly how important mooting is. Does it have some special status above other extracurricular activities (thus perhaps worth taking a grade hit for it), or is it just anther activity?

I dunno I think having mooting achievements on your CV certainly looks good as any co-curricular activity would. It's certainly something you could point to as a reason for why your marks are not necessarily as high as they could be. But I've heard that for a lot of law firms, the first stage of the recruitment process is a simple "does applicant meet the GPA criterion, if not, discard resume" so I think you should still nurture your GPA more. I'm hardly an expert in top tier law firms though so maybe discuss this with a lecturer that you have a rapport with or something.
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lynt.br

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Re: Mooting
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2014, 03:31:28 am »
+3
So, my friend said that mooting has really pedantic/unspoken rules. From memory, I think she said that "With the greatest respect, your honour" was really insulting, but "With respect, your honour"was how you challenged the judge without being disrespectful.
If this is the case - what are the secret sentences that will help? Or, is there some sort of resource where I can read about mooting and how to do it like a boss?

You will need to follow basic courtroom formalities. There are no 'secret sentences'. The main things are refer to the judge as 'your honour' and you 'submit' your arguments ('the respondent submits that...' instead of 'we believe' or 'we contend'). I would advise against challenging your judge unless they have misunderstood something you said or are clearly in error.

Quote
Exactly how competitive does it get? Are there simply mooting juggernauts that usually take out all of the competitions and have been mooting on their daddy's knee since they were negative six years old, or is it a case of "most dedicated, most wins"?
Anyone can win the LSS moot competitions if they work hard at it. As with all things some teams will have more experience than others though. Mooting is not 'competitive' in the sense of people trying to disrupt other teams - most people are just concerned with their own performance and you should be friendly and gracious to the other team.

Quote
Are there opportunities for us to learn how to moot or to practice with someone that can give us feedback prior to a moot, or through the semester? I'm thinking like, the ol' PE teacher might run "how to play basketball" every Friday in the gym at lunch time, type thing? If not, how do we get awesome at mooting in an efficient manner? (I say efficient manner instead of 'quickest time possible' because I'm not exactly after shortcuts, just things to do). Obviously, doing comps will be the best thing to do, but other than that?
The best practice is to just jump in and do it. There are plenty of moot competitions run by the LSS and outside competitions each year so don't worry if you are a little unsure of what to do in your first few goes. Everyone is in the same boat anyway. Before the first year moot, there will be an information session that explains some of the basics. If you want, you could also search for some videos of the Jessup or Vis moot competitions on YouTube to see how you should present your oral submissions.

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What's the dress code like?
As ninwa says, business dress (suit and tie).

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Can a bad moot somehow damage your Big Law Student Guy reputation and hinder chances at other opportunities?
No. You should not allow concerns about your 'image' to get in the way of you trying new things, which is what university is all about. It speaks more to your character to try something new and not succeed than to avoid it for fear of being embarrassed.

Quote
What's the criteria to win/do well? I mean, is it about how well you present your side's arguments? Is it about how logically compelling your argument is, or about how well you know the law surrounding the moot's topic?
It depends on a number of factors, but ultimately it is a subjective decision made by the judge. The quality of your arguments, your presentation, knowledge of the relevant law and ability to engage in dialogue with the judge will all be relevant.

Quote
What are some of the tricks they throw at you? My friend said that she spent x amount of time talking about Case Y, and then the judge said something like 'Okay, fair enough, but what about Case Z?' (which my friend hadn't prepared for), and she was a bit shocked. She later learned that you're supposed to evade the question somehow, rather than actually talk about Case Z. Is this true? Are there any other things that they can catch you out with?
There are no 'tricks' that judges will throw at you. Mooting is not like debating in that it is more conversational. You should not expect to stand up and deliver a 20 minute monologue. Some advice I have to avoid common pitfalls is to know the facts and judgments of all cases you have cited and to avoid using a pre-prepared script. You need to be able to react to the judge and respond to the other team's submissions.

You should never evade a question. Always be honest and try to give a straight answer to every question. If you don't know the answer, don't try to hide that. Just say something like 'unfortunately I am unable to assist your honour on that point' and move on.

Quote
What are the mechanics of mooting? How long do you get to prepare? How do you sign up?  Do you choose your own team? If so, how many to a team? Would you personally recommend working in a team that you think you'd be good friends with, or working in a team full of people that you think will be amazing at mooting? I'm inclined to go with the first option (make friends and moot with them), on the basis that the teamwork might be more effective.
The mechanics,how long you have to prepare and the registration process depend on the competition. For the LSS competitions, there are two teams per moot composed of two counsel and an optional solicitor who helps with the research and preparation but does not speak in the moot. Counsel will have 20 minutes each for their submissions. The appellant team presents first, followed by the respondent team. In some cases, the appellant may have a 5 minute right of reply after the respondent's submissions.

Before the moot, both teams must also prepare a 'written memorandum' which is an outline of your main arguments with the relevant authorities cited. Memoranda are engaged with the other team before the moot so you know the arguments you need to address.

For the LSS competitions you will only have a few days to prepare so you should use your time efficiently. The sign up procedure will be advertised closer to the competition.

You should select a team that you feel comfortable working with. People you are friends with who you think will be able to commit to the work requirements are probably best.

Quote
Should there ever be a case where I sacrifice some marks on an assignment to prep more for mooting? I recognise this is a question that depends on so many variables, but  I guess I'm asking just exactly how important mooting is. Does it have some special status above other extracurricular activities (thus perhaps worth taking a grade hit for it), or is it just anther activity?
No never. Your subjects are far more important than mooting. There are plenty of moot competitions each year but you only get one chance at doing your uni subjects. The most I would advise is missing a recorded lecture.

I can't say how important mooting is from an employer's perspective, but it does demonstrate a lot of skills such as research skills, teamwork, organisation and communication skills.


Some final advice:
- don't overcommit yourself to mooting for the sake of it. It is a big commitment and you should judge for yourself if you have the time to take it on. There are a number of competitions run each year and you will be at uni for 5-6 years so don't feel bad if you miss one.
- Put the effort in, but don't take it too seriously. Treat mooting as a learning experience rather than a competition that you have to win. Likewise don't stress out if you are feeling unprepared. The worst that will happen is you might suffer a bit of embarrassment, but it's a useful life lesson (about trying new things and not being afraid to fail!).
- Don't argue with the judge or the other team. You're all here to learn, so why not learn from each other?

Hope that helps and best of luck if you do compete - you might have me as a judge :)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2014, 03:37:44 am by lynt.br »

brenden

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Re: Mooting
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2014, 08:15:49 am »
+1
Wow, I honestly can't thank you both enough :). Thanks so much for the info+advice!
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