Why are there select entry schools?

[Khendjer]

Yeah I went to a selective school and didn't get a ton out of it - mostly due to me not really putting much effort into getting involved with school in general. But hey, if I hadn't gone, I'd probably be kicking myself for not giving it a shot.

Firstly, I don't think VCE is a good measure of learning/development/success, but it is important in many regards. So are selective schools beneficial for the individual in any of these facets? I'm a 17 year old high school graduate who knows so little of the real world. So I'll stick to discussing what I've known best for the past two years of my life - VCE.

For VCE results - very likely. A major reason why students may be able to perform better in these environments is due to higher standards to compare themselves with and more motivated students to work alongside with. It's not my intention for this to be interpreted as an elitist view, but it annoys me when I see somebody from a school with a weaker cohort posting how shattered they were about their SACs scaling downwards - that they expected their A average in internal assessment to translate similarly on the exam. I'm not annoyed at the student - far from it - I'm annoyed that there are so many schools failing in their responsibility to produce (for lack of a better word) students aware of the reality of the VCE system. In this regard, my school's consistent performance meant that before the exams I was well aware of where I stood based on my internal ranking. However, the same can't be said for all subjects, as due to low enrollment numbers in certain subjects, being rank 1 does nowhere near secure you a perfect scaled SAC score.

On the other hand, VCE isn't the most important thing in the world, or even your high school years IMO. I lost whatever little motivation I had to be the academically best and became satisfied with being just a little better than average.  A fairly common viewpoint among the cohort was that success wasn't the end result, but the ratio of effort:results.

Really though, I think trying to optimise your ATAR, barring cases of neccessity to just scrape into a course or scholarship, is asinine. So you can only look at VCE results as a measure of, well, your ranking in admissions to tertiary institutions in Australia. There is little doubt in my mind that if my entire selective school cohort did nothing but study 10 hours a day to get better at what comes down to a few 2 hour long exams then they could achieve a median ATAR well into the high 99s. But we don't. Trust me, I bludged through the year and spent 20+ hours a week gaming. I also think anybody (but not everybody) can achieve an ATAR in the high 99s if they were taught nothing about life beyond the VCAA study design and anything that would benefit them in the VCE game.  Extrapolating from this I think anybody can succeed if they're motivated and are well informed on how to work efficiently, or just willing to invest a shitload of time into something, I guess.

So what do the relatively high median ATARs of selective schools represent? That many of its students are interested in pursuing uni courses with competitive entry requirements (or perhaps even more frighteningly - wanting to do well for the sake of doing well  ) . So it comes down to: do you want to be around these people for 6+ hours a day for several years?

Why are there select entry schools?

They're organisations that exist to satisfy a demand. I think their continuing existence justifys their reason for existing.

What's the point?

Quick summary:
+Probably better VCE results
+Offers you the choice of a new social environment
+Probably better motivation to strive for excellence in general
+Better facilities (especially cost-wise)
+Possibly better learning/development environment

-Marginally more expensive than the average public school
-Worse facilities than top private schools
-Possibly worse learning/development environment

your schools reputation is not going to guarantee you a 99.95

Nobody has thought this...ever

it's all a scam

Given the quality of facilities rivaled plenty of mid-tier (cost wise) private schools...I doubt the annual contribution fees were lining anybody's fat wallet.

there is no major difference between selective schools and "average" schools...

Extremely subjective. From an objective viewpoint there are definitely physical differences such as facilities (no way in hell my local high school had a pool)

Paint the picture that VCE is make or break

I disagree entirely. The basis being that this is in no way reflected in how select entry schools present their image - only a niche of their websites are dedicated to VCE scores, for instance. In fact, I'd wager the majority of my peers and their parents entering year 9 did not understand what a 'study score' is.

Why pay more for secondary schooling (up front) than a degree from a top-tier uni?

I'm really beginning to think that AN users are extremely misinformed on the fees charged by selective schools...

Selective schools are to make people feel superior lol

I genuinely wonder if you believe this.

the studious environment does make you work harder though, although when i went to my selective school i did not like it at all and saw myself becoming depressed. Had i stayed at my old school i think i would've  been happier

Yeah this describes how I sometimes felt fairly well. Although it just might be a case of the the grass always being better on the other side...

That was my view of...well...something. It's 2am and I'm writing this out of boredom. If you're reading this and disagree with anything feel free to argue with/flame/inform me.

tl;dr While selective entry schools may not be as amazing as many people believe, after reading this thread I'm certain they're a shitload better than what some misinformed people assume.

[Professor Polonsky]

I moved this thread because it was erring much more on the side of debate and argument rather than help and advice (which is kind of whats expected in the help and advice forum).

Would +1 if I could. Of all possible topics, this discussion is extremely unsuitable for the anon board. I'm sure this was not OP's intent, but it's clearly an abuse of that board and even borders on flamebaiting.

Why are there selective schools? Because it's damn good public policy. It presents a unique opportunity for high-achievers to realise their potential. It's what we need in our society. You abolish selective schools, and you keep many young men and women down. Keep them, and you allow them to prosper and achieve. Also helps to have high-achievers from varying geographical areas, rather than just your inner city southern suburbs.

As for the "they're not actually much better than your average public school" argument; certainly in terms of VCE scores it can be shot down with just one glance of the school results table. As for general satisfaction with the school, I do believe I read somewhere that the selective schools score highest amongst public schools on those DEECD surveys. I'll look it up when I don't have to be up in 5 hours and have a bit more time.

Sure, it's not exactly equitable. Some will miss out, others might make it and not be the most deserving. It's certainly a lot better than not having them at all, though. And as was said before me, it's got nothing to do with money. They're far from a revenue source for the government - no public school is.

VCE is not make it or break it. However, your high school years are some of the most formative of your life. Gaining admission to a selective school is not just about a few extra ATAR points, it's also simply being in that sort of environment.

[pi]

For the record MHS did have fees of about 1k a year, mainly to cover heritage stuff, sport and resources such as exams and the library stocks. Hardly compares to the elite private schools but is something when compared to the public school down the road.

[Shenz0r]

The amount of generalisation in this thread is shattering my heart.

Rather than spitting out these crude, rhetorical "facts" as actual facts, maybe some of you should do your research and actually ask some people who went to these schools. I certainly did not feel sheltered from the real world, the majority of students did not get spoonfed by their children, and although there was some pride about going to our school it was definitely not an "in-your-face" sort of mentality.

[Inside Out]

As ironic as it sounds, I think selective schools put too much pressure on being extrovert to reduce the "nerd" stereotype. In my previous school i could join a club for the sake of me wanting to not because i was being reminded to/chastised for not getting involved in every assembly.

[brenden]

What the golly good hell is in this thread?

Select-schools exist so talented people don't have their spirits continually beaten down by spastics from schools like mine. Mostly so people who want to focus on their education don't have to focus on people dealing weed and screaming in classrooms

/endthread

Private schools are a different matter entirely but we can't do much but assume. Obviously people from a high socio-ec. area go to private schools, and there's a correlation between grades and monies, so for all we know private schools + good grades =/= causation. Although ofc the top end private schools are going to have better teaching.

[007]

I don't really think you should end a thread, it is in the debate and ranting section which will obviously have opposing thoughts.

I've been to all three types of schools in relatively high socioeconomic areas and I couldn't say they differ at much - except, private school students can often lack natural smarts but put in the effort to make mummy and daddy proud, and public schools have niches of people from bludges to the people who actually try.

[slothpomba]

I don't really think you should end a thread, it is in the debate and ranting section which will obviously have opposing thoughts.

I think it was more a sarcastic thing as in "this argument above is so watertight or simple, the thread is over, go home everyone, we've solved it". As you can see the thread is still open so its very likely what he meant :p.