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keltingmeith

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2014, 10:47:06 pm »
+1
"Looking impressive" is probably the worst reason to do a PhD ever. "Because I don't want to enter the real world" isn't much better (but I assume you were at least half-joking about that one).

Most European PhDs take a similar length to Australian ones, and lot of the extra length of American PhDs is made up of coursework. I think if I were to do a PhD overseas, I'd be looking at Britain or continental Europe rather than the USA. (Having EU citizenship also sways me in that direction!)

I thought life sciences research was one of the best funded disciplines? Certainly better than, say, humanities or pure maths.

It is a bad reason - it's also the reason a lot of people do it AND get hired. :\
Of course life sciences are better funded than pure maths. :P As much as I love it, only so much funding can go to things that aren't inherently useful to society, more money will go to things that will be an obvious benefit. The issue is - as much as life sciences may be well funded, a LOT of people want to go into it. Last I checked (especially with the amount of people taking life science classes at Monash), too many people want to go into the field than can be catered for. Doesn't help that the Government has cut funding for CSIRO - I mean, they want more people in STEM fields, then start cutting research budgets, I'm getting some very mixed signals here?

Ballerina

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2014, 10:54:18 pm »
0
"Looking impressive" is probably the worst reason to do a PhD ever. "Because I don't want to enter the real world" isn't much better (but I assume you were at least half-joking about that one).

Most European PhDs take a similar length to Australian ones, and lot of the extra length of American PhDs is made up of coursework. I think if I were to do a PhD overseas, I'd be looking at Britain or continental Europe rather than the USA. (Having EU citizenship also sways me in that direction!)

I thought life sciences research was one of the best funded disciplines? Certainly better than, say, humanities or pure maths.

Actually it alludes to the fact I love being a student. Everything about it suits me and I want to be one for as long as it is sustainable.

Yes, that's why it's not too much of an issue any longer. Hahahaha life sciences research opportunities are recognized as horrible in Australia. It's unstable and highly competitive according to the community. Australia in general is not the best for research, though we are progressing.

It's pretty amusing to see so many science students bash arts when many of us will end up as lab techs earning the same mean wages.

Hancock

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2014, 10:56:40 pm »
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#engineering
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ChickenCh0wM1en

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2014, 10:58:24 pm »
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Actually it alludes to the fact I love being a student. Everything about it suits me and I want to be one for as long as it is sustainable.

Yes, that's why it's not too much of an issue any longer. Hahahaha life sciences research opportunities are recognized as horrible in Australia. It's unstable and highly competitive according to the community. Australia in general is not the best for research, though we are progressing.

It's pretty amusing to see so many science students bash arts when many of us will end up as lab techs earning the same mean wages.

I've always thought that Melbourne was one of the best in the world to do research, in particular micro/imm, neuroscience etc. Well, that's what one of my previous church leaders told me (PhD in Immunology at Monash).
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keltingmeith

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #34 on: July 06, 2014, 11:01:39 pm »
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It's pretty amusing to see so many science students bash arts when many of us will end up as lab techs earning the same mean wages.

See, I'd heard that a BSc actually over-qualifies you as a lab tech... Which kind of means that at least arts students get a job, we'll just be in the sewers, too qualified to get the simple stuff, and no market to get anything else. :P

Ballerina

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #35 on: July 06, 2014, 11:07:16 pm »
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We're ranked higher in life sciences than many other disciplines UoM offers, and we're a large university. But the demand outweighs the supply. Every UoM lecturer I've asked about research has said it's financially unstable and there are low employment opportunities. Some were nice enough to discuss the budget cuts and grant rejections from their labs, resulting in lay offs </3 They basically said if you want to successfully get into research you have to really, really love it for the sake of research, and you have to demonstrate you are excellent at what you do. Which imitates what the Australian career guides I've read have stated :/

Yessss ahahah, engineering and health sciences are among the few fields with good prospects.

Yeah, you can be a lab tech with TAFE certs. It's not uncommon for post-docs to leave out their PhD qualification if they're applying for a job they're overqualified for as there is nothing else, so that employers don't receive the impression they'll leave once something better comes along.

simpak

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #36 on: July 06, 2014, 11:12:13 pm »
+2
Yeah, I've heard there's a bit of messing around involved. I'll have to see how I go with Honours before I can know for sure. I'd probably want a solid paper in order to get into a good university (i.e. equivalent or better then what I'd be able to get into in Australia.) I also want to live outside Australia at some point, and it's good opportunity to do just that.

I don't really want to dox myself :P My UROP project was at an associated institute (not UoM based,) while my third year project will be with a member of the biochemistry department. Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.

Haha no, that's totally cool - I understand!  I was just curious (for no real reason) anyway to see which way around your UROP v third year project would sway in terms of location!

---

One of the reasons that PhD programs in the US take longer is because 1) their undergrad degrees often contain much more 'generalised' coursework (for eg, 'Biology' major rather than 'Biochemistry' or 'Immunology' or 'Physiology' major) so by the time you graduate from undergrad you still don't know all the intricate specifics about the field you would be going into, 2) rotations in different labs before you decide which you want to settle down into, which is kind of a good thing in some respects I guess. But those two things take extra time!

The govt has cut funding to the CSIRO but the CSIRO is much more about non-medical science so I don't see how that is so relevant to the medical research funding concern. The government had also planned to pump money into medical research with the GP fee, which is kind of supporting life science research. It is all mixed signals, though. All of those things are interrelated - even if the CSIRO is more 'basic' science than clinical applications, you need to research/understand that stuff before you can progress in the clinical sense.  So the government plans for 'selective' science research funding (eg choose strictly hospital related medical over basic physical, chemical principles, blah) will never really work out.

Idk about their being 'too many people' wanting to do research as much as not everybody can...like, if you don't get a H1 in Hons you won't get a PhD scholarship. So you need to actually be very academically proficient to even get in to research - I think a lot of people treat it as like 'well I guess I will have to do research if I don't get into this professional degree eg MD, JD, etc' but it's not really like that, esp in life sciences fields. You won't have the option if your grades aren't good enough...
Being an RA is a bit different - but you do need at least Hons for that, as said above.  And that too is kind of competitive at the moment (my lab has just recruited some RAs!)
In any case, it's always going to be super competitive and it's not a job you would just take on to make a living, but I'm sure most people here actually know that. For Au researchers the grant success rate is like 16% for medical research, and for my dept it's 34% which is like double the national average but still really low...

And what is said about life science research in Australia being great is true, for many fields, but esp MIIM. As stated above, that's one of the reasons I'll be choosing to stay here for my PhD. Our dept. is one of the best in the /world/...and number 1 in the Asia/Pac region.
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ChickenCh0wM1en

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2014, 11:16:07 pm »
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Idk about their being 'too many people' wanting to do research as much as not everybody can...like, if you don't get a H1 in Hons you won't get a PhD scholarship. So you need to actually be very academically proficient to even get in to research - I think a lot of people treat it as like 'well I guess I will have to do research if I don't get into this professional degree eg MD, JD, etc' but it's not really like that, esp in life sciences fields. You won't have the option if your grades aren't good enough...
Being an RA is a bit different - but you do need at least Hons for that, as said above.  And that too is kind of competitive at the moment (my lab has just recruited some RAs!)
In any case, it's always going to be super competitive and it's not a job you would just take on to make a living, but I'm sure most people here actually know that. For Au researchers the grant success rate is like 16% for medical research, and for my dept it's 34% which is like double the national average but still really low...

And what is said about life science research in Australia being great is true, for many fields, but esp MIIM. As stated above, that's one of the reasons I'll be choosing to stay here for my PhD. Our dept. is one of the best in the /world/...and number 1 in the Asia/Pac region.

Woooo! I'm actually looking into research but since I didn't do MIIM, if I went onto a PhD it wouldn't be in immunology or whatever since I didn't major in it :( Probably neuro or physiology but my church leader said that a PhD in phys doesn't open up many doors for research whereas immunology has so many topical fields etc which is why he is looking to work with Peter Doherty :P
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Ballerina

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2014, 11:24:01 pm »
+1
Even with stringent entry guidelines though, it indeed results in a high surplus of post-docs which become the competition, and that makes me curl up in the foetal position. I was hoping you would be the optimistic ray of sunshine to my cloud of science tears. ;_; COME ON SIMPAK, TELL ME EVERYTHING IS GOING TO BE OKAY. TELL ME RESEARCH INSTEAD OF MONEY CAN KEEP YOU WARM AT NIGHT <3

Quote
I think a lot of people treat it as like 'well I guess I will have to do research if I don't get into this professional degree eg MD, JD, etc' but it's not really like that, esp in life sciences fields. You won't have the option if your grades aren't good enough...

All my respect points. It was only until university that I realized that the vast majority of my peers in life sciences wanted medicine. While medicine seems fantastic, it's not a career that would make me happy and it would bum me out if everyone thought I wanted to do research because I didn't get into medicine >:C It is indeed pretty difficult to get into medicine if you have never now or ever plan to sit the GAMSAT >:C  I plan on using aggression to compensate for the inferiority complex which will slowly develop over time.

Edit: Out of curiosity, all the lecturers I've spoken to have conveyed that I would have to go overseas if I wanted to maximize my opportunities, because Australia is very limited/depressing when it comes to those for life sciences. They only mentioned U.S.A. and England; are there any other hotspots for biological research? In the compilations available Japan and China seem to reoccur, as well as some  small European countries. On one of the pages we made the list!!!! http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/news/top-20-countries-in-molecular-biology-and-genetics-based-on-impact/401843.article Although Israel may be a better horse to bet on apparently.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 11:39:27 pm by Ballerina »

simpak

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2014, 11:40:49 pm »
+3
It's never too late to switch to MIIM, Chicken ;)  If your church leader infiltrates my dept you will have to reveal their name to me so I can watch out for them hahaha.

Research only keeps me cold at night because the heating at the Doherty turns off after 6pm unless you press a button, and I don't know where the button is ;--;

You would want to go overseas eventually but I don't think it's absolutely necessary for postgrad, because we go to UoM and Parkville precinct is a thing.  If I were at a diff Au uni I might consider going abroad for PhD and of course I was considering it until recently but I think it depends on how things are going for you at the time in a way - like if there is nothing holding you back then you should go but if you have a good project lined up then you should stay for a while. Tbqh I think there's nothing bad about staying here for PhD if you plan on going abroad for postdoc and you think it will help you publish well.  Because you don't really have to worry personally about things like grants until after your PhD and then most people go overseas, and if you get tied up there you may never have to come back here.  You might want to but you may never have to! I think Asia is slowly progressing towards becoming a hotspot for research - Japan, China, Hong Kong, Singapore...definitely worth caring about.  But the USA and Europe will definitely always be the biggest hotspots - I wouldn't confine Europe to just England, though. Germany, Switzerland, France...all also good.
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Ballerina

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2014, 11:49:58 pm »
+1
TYVM! Yes, I definitely want postgrad at UoM. Even if grants are hard to obtain here, UoM is still recognized as a great institution for neuroscience. 

Another reason I want to be a student for as long as possible is as I might like the idea of research more than some of its factors, such as the fact it's heavily collaborative with other people. I really hate working with others ahahah. During the holidays I take two consecutive trips to the grocery store so that I don't need to leave my apartment and see others for over a week. And if I become involved in neuroscience, it would often center around the molecular side of things, which is not for me either. Anatomy/physio/psychology is more fun personally, which might mean I would end up in psychological research, which is not for me either...

I don't know at all. On the plus side, lots of other people don't and we can be confused together <3 

simpak

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2014, 11:58:08 pm »
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I think it's difficult to know what you want until you find yourself 'landed' right in it...and then don't want to leave it? And sometimes even then it's difficult to tell. But re: your concerns, I think there are aspects of any career that make people tentative/unsure it's the right choice for them, or aspects of any job that might seem annoying to any particular person. Collaboration sure is fun in research...hohoho. Nah it's alright, if you like the people, but that's one of the reasons it's important to find yourself in the right lab. There will always be projects in your field which are less molecule-centric, surely? Perhaps you would even consider more 'clinical' research Science in the sense that you could look into neuroscience centred projects that are based more in the hospital environment as they would likely be much more clinical in nature rather than molecular wet lab work blah, but I'm not sure that would float your boat either? I'm sure you shall find the path for you - I have never really known what I want to do and I finally feel like I might be getting somewhere after so much fucking around? (nah, clearly the person with the most direction on earth, just take a look at this completely uncluttered study planner...http://imgur.com/qtr42hF)
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Ballerina

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2014, 12:23:27 am »
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Definitely, which is why I'm going forward with the research pathway. Perhaps the most significant issue is that I have long periods of anti-social behaviour even around lovely people. Sometimes I think I should quit school and become a lighthouse keeper~ Or take another 2 gap years ahah. There will be projects, but I'm cutting down options when there were already few. That is an awesome idea!!! Clinical research actually sounds like a lot of fun. Would MDs conducting research be given preference though? Which goes hand in hand with cutting down my options if I pursue a PhD.

I am very confident that I don't want to chase an MD as I just don't want to practice medicine and would not enjoy the vast majority of the content I'd need to learn over 4 years + several years interning. I can't even commit to studying one subject I dislike per a semester. But the one variable I can never shake off is that an MD can both conduct neuromedical research (my ideal scenario) and be financially stable with a steady stream of income. I suppose that's why it gets under my skin. It's an investment that would be a large pain because I would hate studying it, yet it would have great long-term returns. I know I won't be doing the GAMSAT or applying, because it's ridiculous to attend medical school if you never intend on practicing medicine. But I'm always reminded of it when people around me apply.

Ahahaha it's so wonderful you've found something that might make you happy! <33 If it doesn't pan out, we still have the backup plan of being sugar babies and trophy wives.

simpak

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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2014, 12:33:12 am »
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For the clinical type Hons projects, definitely not given preference to MDs.  Have a look in the handbook for anything with Honours (Medicine) or Honours (Hospital Name) eg Honours (Austin) and those are projects designed for BSci or BBmed students in third year to apply for...just like any project in an internal dept!

Keep an eye out for the RMH and St Vincents and Austin Honours project booklets that should come out sometime in second semester and take a look at what they have to offer.

Yeah, so many people tell me that I should do the MD because I can and because it would be heaps of financial security and you get paid more when you go back into research but I think that's a stupid reason...like I don't want to study it just to go back and do research.  And I would probably never go back, tbqh.  I've applied because I'm still not 100% sure what I want to do, only 99.999% ;) (and GAMSAT expiry wat up)
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Re: What do you want to do next?
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2014, 12:45:21 am »
+3
That is such a good suggestion, I'm going to do that right nowwww  :o I suspect preference would be given to MDs in the working field, though.

Science is beautiful but I don't enjoy her abstract side. You need to be very imaginative to step into her world of molecules, chemical bonds, physical energy, and I don't have the capacity to imagine the molecular world and link its significance to the visible world, even though it is present. Which is why anatomy, physiology, psychology - fields you can see and understand directly and immediately - appeal. Being able to apply solutions and view tangible results among actual people ergo work practically but still in research, is not a concept I considered much until now. Thank youu.

Awh I want to hug you, I feel similarly especially when it's what so many people want. I AM NOT GOOD AT REJECTING HERD MENTALITY. I HAVE BOUGHT SO MANY THINGS BECAUSE SALESPEOPLE TOLD ME IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA.