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S200

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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2018, 07:19:55 pm »
0
Don't agree, sorry.

If anything, you are potentially putting yourself in harms way. If you're doing say 150 and you lose control of your car, even for a second.... your car will end up being a write-off and you and passengers in a fatal/critical condition. It is not difficult to lose control of a car. And tbh if you disagree with this... I would challenge you to come back and support your own views again after you've had a few years of solo driving experience.

If you're on your own and want to do that... sure. If you have passengers in your car and want to do that still, then that's just absolutely selfish.
I agree, and by open season, I was referring to my first comment, to drive at 10kmh over the speed limit.

But, for reference, I have only been driving just over a year and have driven for more than 150 hours. I consider myself quite experienced.
I do believe that I will develope further thoughts on this as I move to solo driving though...

Edit:
I am not saying that I have not traveled at 150kmh. I am saying that I find it funner to travel at 121 than 109. To go back to OP, the speedo is invariably out by at least 3 kmh, and the police radar have a tolerance of ~2-3 kmh. To get back to my OP, it isn;t worth the Cop's time to stop you for what is only a 1 demerit and $150 fine, when they cn go on and stop the guy doing >25 kmh over and actually make people safer on the road.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 07:36:31 pm by S200 »
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2018, 07:33:28 pm »
+1
As far as I can see, those who need a speed limit the most are those who consistently break them. However, I believe that it is a good thing to have a speed limit at least as an indicator of a good speed. However, having the speed limit in place, it must be more strongly enforced, so that we get the dangerous people off the road. On the whole, I think that having them in place is good, but they must be enforced if they are to remain.
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S200

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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2018, 07:39:47 pm »
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As far as I can see, those who need a speed limit the most are those who consistently break them. However, I believe that it is a good thing to have a speed limit at least as an indicator of a good speed. However, having the speed limit in place, it must be more strongly enforced, so that we get the dangerous people off the road. On the whole, I think that having them in place is good, but they must be enforced if they are to remain.
I agree in part. Speed limits are necessary for built up and high-risk areas, but in general travel, with decent roads and decent driver training I think they are unnecessary.  The thing I like most about speed signs are the yellow ones that suggest safe speeds for upcoming corners. They are what I actually base most of my driving off...
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2018, 08:00:07 pm »
+10
Edit: excuse if I'm coming off like a broken record/a bit nonsensical, at this point i'm more expressing salt than being productive, oops. i just have very strong opinions on this. it's one thing putting yourself in harm's way, that's your choice. it's another to put other's in harm way -- it's just downright selfish. this is coming from somebody who used to drive/ride around unlicensed at night back in the day. i was a grade a+ dickhead, but i've tried to mature

Quote
Well, two completely different vehicles, but yes, when you compare them it seems small. But just look at what cars CAN actually do. We are literally travelling at a quarter of the speed that we could be travelling. Although I don't suggest that everyone could travel at over 450 Km h, I seriously believe that we should be travelling faster. Clearly some training would be required. Compare the number of accidents in Australia with the number of accidents in Germany. Because of their higher training, they have just a percentage of our crashes. Regrettably, they do have a higher chance of death if they crash, but this is a major driver in automotive design and manufacturing. Germany is still safer than us though. Germany has 4.3 deaths per 100000 people in 2014 compared with Australia's 5.6.

I don't really see the point in your first argument. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. I can eat a fucktonne more of food, but I don't, because that'd be causing health issues. I eat a reasonable amount to stay fit -- not become overweight.

The German licensing system is pretty damn strict.  Hell, it's $2,000 dollars to get it, and you even need a first aid certificate. Their roads are much better -- they're reinforced heaps for smoother rides and have to undergo regular checkups, as do cars. Like you said, their accident rate is lower, but the percentage of deaths in said accidents are higher. Given all this, I don't think I can make an accurate judgement on the safety of higher speeds (as exhibited on the Autobahn) given there are too many factors at play and, well, I'm obviously not an expert.

Quote
Well, at risk of bragging, I actually believe that I drive better than 70% of others. This is only my opinion, and based off a small survey of my class. Again, though this may just be a learner driver talking, and "probably overestimat[ing] your my ability (being young and all)...".
I'm pretty sure most people rate themselves as above average drivers. Illusory superiority is a funny thing, huh. I should note that your class is likely almost all learner drivers -- that is, INEXPERIENCED drivers. If you're better than 70% of your class, good for you, but that doesn't mean you're better than 70% of actual drivers.

Quote
But the only reason that I said that concentration thing is that my average driving time would be well over an hour. I routinely do trips to to rural areas like Swan Hill, and with only short halfway breaks. Thus, I am continually driving with a smidgen of fatigue, which is eliminated by this risk-taking strategy.

Maybe you need longer halfway breaks.

Quote
This I do agree with, and I am always trying to leave earlier. But as you said, it's "normalized" now, and it's like a heroin habit.... It's not something you can just stop.

Just like any poor habit, maybe you should try stopping that. If you refuse to even try, you can't blame it solely on your family's influence.

Quote
For instance, from Bacchus Marsh to Ballarat, you don't need to slow down below 160 anywhere. That is fact. The road is safe enough to keep that speed continuously. [

Are you talking about the M8 btw? And I don't think it's necessarily about if the road is strong enough to sustain the speeds, more so if your ability is enough to contain that speed 100% of the time (spoiler alert: nope) and if the people around you are strong enough to sustain being hit (spoiler alert: unlikely).

Quote
Well, I personally don't find it exciting to be running on explosions. I personally like electric cars. So yeah, not sure how that reflects on my maturity...

It reflects poorly. Not everything has to be exciting. If you want to speed, go to a speedway.

Quote
Well, yes, but I from my personal experience, I've been put in more danger from others on their phones than I have from my speeding.

That... isn't an excuse? Certainly, you've been put in danger from dickheads on their phone, but I've been in danger from people speeding. One doesn't negate the other.

Quote
But, for reference, I have only been driving just over a year and have driven for more than 150 hours. I consider myself quite experienced.
I do believe that I will develope further thoughts on this as I move to solo driving though...

150 hours is a lot for a learner, good on you. That is not a lot for a normal driver. Hell, you'll find most people break well over that in a year just driving to work.

also i'm gonna be THAT dickhead and point you in the direction of the Dunning-Kruger effect

Quote
o get back to my OP, it isn;t worth the Cop's time to stop you for what is only a 1 demerit and $150 fine, when they cn go on and stop the guy doing >25 kmh over and actually make people safer on the road.

They can stop both. Again, one bad thing doesn't negate the other.


If it's so safe to go faster, why would we have these unnecessarily low speed limits in the first place? Is it revenue raising?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 08:31:07 pm by Calebark »
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2018, 08:29:25 pm »
+8
Just putting it out there that the Germany-Australia equivalencies are bullshit.

Germany is a small country, with really good infrastructure. Which makes sense really because they simply don't need as many highways. Whereas Australian highways are shiiiit.
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2018, 09:22:35 pm »
+2

Just putting it out there that the Germany-Australia equivalencies are bullshit.

Germany is a small country, with really good infrastructure. Which makes sense really because they simply don't need as many highways. Whereas Australian highways are shiiiit.

I’ve also heard that in general getting a licence in Germany also requires a much higher standard of ability. Definitely not comparable.
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2018, 11:02:10 pm »
+1
Caleb has said most of what I wanted to say.  I'll just add a few points:
1. I used to think I was a better-than-average driver because I hadn't had any crashes and felt safe.  Then I realised I'd had quite a few times when I'd made mistakes and got away with them.  Change a few things and it could have got very ugly.  You can get away with a lot of things you don't really deserve to - that doesn't necessarily make you a better driver.  But this might appeal to you: Now I drive more conservatively to help me recover when I make mistakes - but also to give some margin for error when others around me inevitably make mistakes.

2. My experience is that large speed differentials are more of a problem than absolute speeds - doesn't matter if you are a long way under the speed limit or a long way below.  Sometimes I just follow the traffic ahead and find myself 5 or 10 km/h over, and don't particularly mind because it's matching the traffic and I assume the speed limit is somewhat arbitrary. After all, having your eyes glued to the speedo to meet an arbitrary speed limit can be more dangerous than going with the flow and concentrating on the traffic (now if I had cruise control it might be a different matter...).
But if the road has a decent amount of traffic and you're weaving in and out to go faster than everyone else I really wouldn't recommend it.
(it also feels unsafe if you're the only one sticking to a 40 km/h speed limit - but I still do it...)

3. Once you get up to top gear faster speeds are usually less fuel efficient.  If the speed limit were 130 or 150 I would probably follow it (I definitely go at 110), but is the increase in speed really worth the increased energy usage?

If it's so safe to go faster, why would we have these unnecessarily low speed limits in the first place? Is it revenue raising?

I don't think it's revenue raising, just that it's easier to move it down than up.  If there are accidents, it's easy to feel like you've "fixed" it by reducing the speed limits or adding a traffic light or restricting the green turn arrow.  But it's much harder to go the other way.
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2018, 11:54:14 pm »
0
Snip
Edit: excuse if I'm coming off like a broken record/a bit nonsensical, at this point i'm more expressing salt than being productive, oops. i just have very strong opinions on this. it's one thing putting yourself in harm's way, that's your choice. it's another to put other's in harm way -- it's just downright selfish. this is coming from somebody who used to drive/ride around unlicensed at night back in the day. i was a grade a+ dickhead, but i've tried to mature

I don't really see the point in your first argument. Just because we can do something doesn't mean we should. I can eat a fucktonne more of food, but I don't, because that'd be causing health issues. I eat a reasonable amount to stay fit -- not become overweight.

The German licensing system is pretty damn strict.  Hell, it's $2,000 dollars to get it, and you even need a first aid certificate. Their roads are much better -- they're reinforced heaps for smoother rides and have to undergo regular checkups, as do cars. Like you said, their accident rate is lower, but the percentage of deaths in said accidents are higher. Given all this, I don't think I can make an accurate judgement on the safety of higher speeds (as exhibited on the Autobahn) given there are too many factors at play and, well, I'm obviously not an expert.
I'm pretty sure most people rate themselves as above average drivers. Illusory superiority is a funny thing, huh. I should note that your class is likely almost all learner drivers -- that is, INEXPERIENCED drivers. If you're better than 70% of your class, good for you, but that doesn't mean you're better than 70% of actual drivers.

Maybe you need longer halfway breaks.

Just like any poor habit, maybe you should try stopping that. If you refuse to even try, you can't blame it solely on your family's influence.

Are you talking about the M8 btw? And I don't think it's necessarily about if the road is strong enough to sustain the speeds, more so if your ability is enough to contain that speed 100% of the time (spoiler alert: nope) and if the people around you are strong enough to sustain being hit (spoiler alert: unlikely).

It reflects poorly. Not everything has to be exciting. If you want to speed, go to a speedway.

That... isn't an excuse? Certainly, you've been put in danger from dickheads on their phone, but I've been in danger from people speeding. One doesn't negate the other.

150 hours is a lot for a learner, good on you. That is not a lot for a normal driver. Hell, you'll find most people break well over that in a year just driving to work.

also i'm gonna be THAT dickhead and point you in the direction of the Dunning-Kruger effect

They can stop both. Again, one bad thing doesn't negate the other.

If it's so safe to go faster, why would we have these unnecessarily low speed limits in the first place? Is it revenue raising?
I understand where you are coming from, and I also understand that I sound like a know-it-all teen. Which I am. I like the Dunning-Kruger reference. Only a touch of ad-hominem... ;)

I am arguing solely from the point of an experienced learner driver. I still believe that it is safe to travel within a 10km\h band of the speed limit.

Just a few points.

About the M8... Being in control all the time. Can you expand why that is not so?

I agree that it is a bad habit, but I don't think that it's worth stopping? I can't really explain it. That's probably why I am so vocal on this topic. I actually do want to be safe, but I really don't see the point in driving slower. As said earlier... I consider it safe to drive within a 10km\h speed band.

Yes, I do want speed, and no, speedway is not an actual realistic answer (for me). I agree that it is selfish to put everyone else in the car at risk, but when I actually wind it out (like 160+) I always go for a drive for that specific purpose. There is a road that is hardly travelled, incredibly straight, and  I always let the supervisor know what I am doing. Is this selfish, to make a public but unused road my free speedway for a few minutes?

And yeah, that kinda was an excuse. I will deign to accept that excessive speeding is also an issue, but I think that the greater risk for the public should influence the greater action towards public safety. Hence, someone travelling at 110 while texting is just as dangerous as someone weaving in and out of traffic at 150. Someone sitting mainly in one lane, with cruise set at 119 I would consider safer than both.

Why is it so low? I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the idea that the government make money off it is not that far fetched. Shitty restrictions to take the test, bad roads, frustratingly low speed limits. You get drivers that should not be on the road combined with hoons, and it's a bad mix that is gonna provide revenue in 1 of 3 ways... Fines, Crashes, or Burial fees.

But seriously, is 10 kmh more such a danger?
____________________________________________________

@Vox... I referenced Germany not because of the infrastructure or speed limit similarities (which are non-existent), but for the great example they provide in driver training. Before you can even look at driving a car you must know how to control it in any situation that may arise.
So @Lear, that is what I am arguing for. We won't get legislation passed to increase speed limits if we don't already have safer drivers. By making the license harder to get, you encourage safer, confident drivers, while simultaneously decreasing the carbon emissions because there are all those bad drivers that can't get their license and are using public transport.

@Turin...
I do agree. I have had some close calls, but only when nature stepped in with torrential rain. I like your idea... Make way for other's mistakes.

Speed differentials is the major issue, and has been somewhat recurring throughout this thread. But in the larger picture, is an extra 1.6 metres per second really gonna impact you when most things are already happening at 30m\s?
Agreed, at lower speeds this is more critical, and there is a cool TAC add showing the difference between 60kmh and 65kmh in an emergency braking situation, but this difference negates itself at higher speeds. The ratio of 60-70 is marginally higher than the ratio of 110-120, and this continues as you go to higher speeds.

Your point number three is actually very interesting. From what I have heard, 80kmh is actually the most fuel efficient speed, but it would be unthinkable to travel long distances at such a stupidly slow speed.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 11:56:39 pm by S200 »
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2018, 12:23:17 am »
0
So how does anyone see self-driving cars affecting speed limits (or travel generally) in the next 5 - 10 years?
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2018, 07:41:35 am »
+2
I honestly don’t even think self driving cars will make up a majority of the cars on the road for at least 15 years.
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2018, 01:11:13 pm »
+7

Why is it so low? I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the idea that the government make money off it is not that far fetched. Shitty restrictions to take the test, bad roads, frustratingly low speed limits. You get drivers that should not be on the road combined with hoons, and it's a bad mix that is gonna provide revenue in 1 of 3 ways... Fines, Crashes, or Burial fees.

But seriously, is 10 kmh more such a danger?

To tack onto the end of this thing (I know most of this was argued last night, but hear me out) I have personal experience with the consequences of speeding, and so, after a bit of research, I want to show you what 10km can do to your car's breaking distance:

This is from Allianz Insurance's website, and you can find these graphs with other sites including RACV, various government initiatives and even the police. Stopping takes time and force. If you're into physics, you'll know about momentum. Do the math. This isn't just about you and how fast you think is convenient. This is about your safety and the safety of other drivers.

I had a friend (on her L's) driving on the freeway. She hit a piece of debris and rolled her car, on the speed limit. The car was totalled. She almost broke her neck. 10km more and the doctors say she would have been severely injured, or dead.

My mother's best friend was killed by a driver going 15km over the speed limit. He could have stopped in time if he'd been going the speed limit, and now she's gone.

Don't ever assume that these situations wouldn't apply to your case if you were driving, because they would. That is the reality. Arguing about the theory of speeds isn't going to change the risks involved if you do speed. And on that subject, "hooning" involves speeding. So if you're considering the risks of "hoons" on the roads and people who should not be driving, remember to put yourself in there, too. There are always bad drivers - you just have to do your best to stay out of that category, and that means obeying the most basic road rules.

This is not a personal attack, this is fact. Consider the condition of your car, the weather, the road surface, your concentration level and reaction time, as well as the force you apply to the brakes from that speed. From 100 to 110, there is an ideal breaking distance difference of 23 meters. And that could be the deciding factor between life and death.
So, please consider what you're arguing very carefully. Driving is not a game.
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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2018, 01:17:52 pm »
+8
Is this selfish, to make a public but unused road my free speedway for a few minutes?

Sure is.

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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2018, 01:56:03 pm »
0
Re highways, in some Countries there are fast and slow lanes, so some lanes are already dedicated “speed ways”. That would mean they designed for it and it sn’t selfish, the system allows for it.

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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2018, 02:19:22 pm »
+6
Re highways, in some Countries there are fast and slow lanes, so some lanes are already dedicated “speed ways”. That would mean they designed for it and it sn’t selfish, the system allows for it.
Pretty sure this isn't what the user was referring to :/

I understand where you are coming from, and I also understand that I sound like a know-it-all teen. Which I am. I like the Dunning-Kruger reference. Only a touch of ad-hominem... ;)

I am arguing solely from the point of an experienced learner driver. I still believe that it is safe to travel within a 10km\h band of the speed limit.

Just a few points.

About the M8... Being in control all the time. Can you expand why that is not so?

I agree that it is a bad habit, but I don't think that it's worth stopping? I can't really explain it. That's probably why I am so vocal on this topic. I actually do want to be safe, but I really don't see the point in driving slower. As said earlier... I consider it safe to drive within a 10km\h speed band.

Yes, I do want speed, and no, speedway is not an actual realistic answer (for me). I agree that it is selfish to put everyone else in the car at risk, but when I actually wind it out (like 160+) I always go for a drive for that specific purpose. There is a road that is hardly travelled, incredibly straight, and  I always let the supervisor know what I am doing. Is this selfish, to make a public but unused road my free speedway for a few minutes?

And yeah, that kinda was an excuse. I will deign to accept that excessive speeding is also an issue, but I think that the greater risk for the public should influence the greater action towards public safety. Hence, someone travelling at 110 while texting is just as dangerous as someone weaving in and out of traffic at 150. Someone sitting mainly in one lane, with cruise set at 119 I would consider safer than both.

Why is it so low? I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the idea that the government make money off it is not that far fetched. Shitty restrictions to take the test, bad roads, frustratingly low speed limits. You get drivers that should not be on the road combined with hoons, and it's a bad mix that is gonna provide revenue in 1 of 3 ways... Fines, Crashes, or Burial fees.

But seriously, is 10 kmh more such a danger?
____________________________________________________

@Vox... I referenced Germany not because of the infrastructure or speed limit similarities (which are non-existent), but for the great example they provide in driver training. Before you can even look at driving a car you must know how to control it in any situation that may arise.
So @Lear, that is what I am arguing for. We won't get legislation passed to increase speed limits if we don't already have safer drivers. By making the license harder to get, you encourage safer, confident drivers, while simultaneously decreasing the carbon emissions because there are all those bad drivers that can't get their license and are using public transport.

@Turin...
I do agree. I have had some close calls, but only when nature stepped in with torrential rain. I like your idea... Make way for other's mistakes.

Speed differentials is the major issue, and has been somewhat recurring throughout this thread. But in the larger picture, is an extra 1.6 metres per second really gonna impact you when most things are already happening at 30m\s?
Agreed, at lower speeds this is more critical, and there is a cool TAC add showing the difference between 60kmh and 65kmh in an emergency braking situation, but this difference negates itself at higher speeds. The ratio of 60-70 is marginally higher than the ratio of 110-120, and this continues as you go to higher speeds.

Your point number three is actually very interesting. From what I have heard, 80kmh is actually the most fuel efficient speed, but it would be unthinkable to travel long distances at such a stupidly slow speed.

Now I'm thinking they should have tests if someone wants to be a supervisor driver or at least a psychic evaluation. Since I don't blame you (since you are still a very inexperienced learner driver) as much as I would the supervisor driver who is making you think it's ok to do this sort of things.

Idk why you keep on bringing up texting whilst driving just because someone else does something wrong doesn't make the thing you doing ok. You shouldn't be doing either one of those things.




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Re: Are speeding limits necessary?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2018, 02:27:22 pm »
+7
Quote
I am arguing solely from the point of an experienced learner driver. I still believe that it is safe to travel within a 10km\h band of the speed limit.

Experienced full driver >>> experienced learner driver. That's a few years of difference, and probably well over 1,000 hours. They're the ones making the rules -- they're the learned ones.

Quote
About the M8... Being in control all the time. Can you expand why that is not so?
I'm... not really understanding this. You said it's a fact that you can speed all the way there and that the road can remain safe. Maybe the road can, but not the people. There are still other people on the roads. I'd think the fact that any accident has occured there as a result of speeding would show otherwise.

Quote
I agree that it is a bad habit, but I don't think that it's worth stopping? I can't really explain it. That's probably why I am so vocal on this topic. I actually do want to be safe, but I really don't see the point in driving slower. As said earlier... I consider it safe to drive within a 10km\h speed band.
That sounds a bit contradictory. If you don't think it's worth stopping, then it's not a bad habit.

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Yes, I do want speed, and no, speedway is not an actual realistic answer (for me). I agree that it is selfish to put everyone else in the car at risk, but when I actually wind it out (like 160+) I always go for a drive for that specific purpose. There is a road that is hardly travelled, incredibly straight, and  I always let the supervisor know what I am doing. Is this selfish, to make a public but unused road my free speedway for a few minutes?
Why is speedway not a realistic answer? You need to accomodate your interests, you can't expect the world to do it for you. The alternative is to just not speed. And yes, it is selfish of you, and it is selfish of your supervisory (lol) driver. I really don't think I can express myself any other way.

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And yeah, that kinda was an excuse. I will deign to accept that excessive speeding is also an issue, but I think that the greater risk for the public should influence the greater action towards public safety. Hence, someone travelling at 110 while texting is just as dangerous as someone weaving in and out of traffic at 150. Someone sitting mainly in one lane, with cruise set at 119 I would consider safer than both.
I'm rreeaalllllyyy not getting you here. Public safety can be aimed at all types of silly behaviour. We don't have to pick one to focus on for public safety at the expensve of another.

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Why is it so low? I am not a conspiracy theorist, but the idea that the government make money off it is not that far fetched. Shitty restrictions to take the test, bad roads, frustratingly low speed limits. You get drivers that should not be on the road combined with hoons, and it's a bad mix that is gonna provide revenue in 1 of 3 ways... Fines, Crashes, or Burial fees.

But seriously, is 10 kmh more such a danger?
I don't think it's overly far-fetched. However, given those three factors, there is only one that is in our IMMEDIATE control, and that is the actual speeding. Even if you think your driving skill is top-notch and won't cause an accident, the shitty restrictions to take the test and the bad roads still affect the other drivers around you, who could be a danger to yourself -- a danger that you're only exacerbating.

I'll leave that last point to secretly_a_poet, she made a good post about it.

Re highways, in some Countries there are fast and slow lanes, so some lanes are already dedicated “speed ways”. That would mean they designed for it and it sn’t selfish, the system allows for it.

We are not one of those countries. It is selfish here.
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