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October 04, 2023, 03:56:24 am

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The Cat In The Hat

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2021, 04:52:01 pm »
+6
https://gbdeclaration.org/
^quotes from the website

This declaration was signed by people who are very qualified. Why wasn't it considered?
From the FAQ: https://gbdeclaration.org/frequently-asked-questions/
Just want to mention that a few of those quotes are utterly whacko when seeing the statistics for the Delta variant. It targets the younger people.
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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2021, 12:37:22 pm »
+11
It's still a huge shame that we spent that much time in lockdown last year when there was this solution on board...

Also: https://fee.org/articles/harvard-epidemiologist-says-the-case-for-covid-vaccine-passports-was-just-demolished/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/06/04/why-i-spoke-out-against-lockdowns/ by Dr Martin Kulldorff

This theory is why countries like Sweden have had well over 1 million cases and will reach 15,000 deaths. It's dehumanising of you to just dismiss that number with claims like this:
Quote
“The natural immune protection that develops after a SARS-CoV-2 infection offers considerably more of a shield against the Delta variant of the pandemic coronavirus than two doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, according to a large Israeli study that some scientists wish came with a ‘Don’t try this at home’ label,” the Scientific American reported Thursday. “The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.”
Of course a person who has already contracted the virus will have natural immunity!! That's how our bodies work. The point of vaccines is to approximate this, and create a barrier without contracting the virus at all. A virus, mind you, that creates long-term adverse health affects previously unknown to us last year. We've known the science behind vaccines for over 200 years. We use them for all sorts of diseases. COVID is no different - same as the flu, polio, smallpox, or tetanus, the vaccine is a preventative measure that will mitigate the effects of the virus if ever contracted - and provide you with a higher chance of never contracting it at all.

Also, lockdowns in Australia began last year in March. The website you're quoting was developed mid-October 2020, and even then our top epidemiologists and sociologists would have likely considered this. GB Declaration also claims to have thousands of signatures from health professionals, but includes naturopaths and names that support other theories such as population cleansing - which is a conspiracy theory with roots in racism and xenophobia.

It's amazing that this discussion has gone from using biased Australian media sources to biased international sources in an effort to criticise. Lockdown is flawed for sure - and you can hate the way Australia has handled it - but it's better to have a look at real statistics and independent studies than opinion pieces.
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james.358

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2021, 01:22:16 pm »
+6
Just adding to this, the "solution" proposed by the GB Declaration isn't a solution for us, its a solution for businesses. For one, it is a statement issued by the American Institute for Economic Research (a libertarian think tank). I think that tells you all you need to know about their motives. It is something mainly touted by politicians (including Trump), not health experts and has been thoroughly debunked before even the existence of the Delta variant.

Quote from: From Wikipedia:
It was roundly condemned by many public health experts. Anthony Fauci, the infectious disease expert appointed by the White House, called the declaration "total nonsense" and unscientific. Tyler Cowen, a libertarian economist at George Mason University, wrote that while he sympathizes with a libertarian approach to deal with the pandemic, the declaration was dangerous and misguided.
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The Cat In The Hat

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2021, 03:43:44 pm »
+1
It's still a huge shame that we spent that much time in lockdown last year when there was this solution on board...

Also: https://fee.org/articles/harvard-epidemiologist-says-the-case-for-covid-vaccine-passports-was-just-demolished/
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/06/04/why-i-spoke-out-against-lockdowns/ by Dr Martin Kulldorff
Yes, that might be a good solution if everyone was to survive. Some will not survive contact with the virus. Some will be permanently damaged by it. It's true they are less likely to get it again, but that's sorry comfort for those who won't get anything at all ever again, and their grieving families.
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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2021, 10:28:25 am »
+17
https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD015017.pub2/full?cookiesEnabled
Quote
Based on the current very low‐ to low‐certainty evidence, we are uncertain about the efficacy and safety of ivermectin used to treat or prevent COVID‐19. The completed studies are small and few are considered high quality. Several studies are underway that may produce clearer answers in review updates. Overall, the reliable evidence available does not support the use of ivermectin for treatment or prevention of COVID‐19 outside of well‐designed randomized trials.

https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/why-you-should-not-use-ivermectin-treat-or-prevent-covid-19
Quote
However, the FDA has received multiple reports of patients who have required medical attention, including hospitalization, after self-medicating with ivermectin intended for livestock.

The FDA has not authorized or approved ivermectin for use in preventing or treating COVID-19 in humans or animals. Ivermectin is approved for human use to treat infections caused by some parasitic worms and head lice and skin conditions like rosacea.

There’s a lot of misinformation around, and you may have heard that it’s okay to take large doses of ivermectin. It is not okay.

Even the levels of ivermectin for approved human uses can interact with other medications, like blood-thinners. You can also overdose on ivermectin, which can cause nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, hypotension (low blood pressure), allergic reactions (itching and hives), dizziness, ataxia (problems with balance), seizures, coma and even death.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/the-shaky-science-behind-ivermectin-as-a-covid-19-cure

Quote
Around the same time, a controversial paper which had not yet been peer reviewed and was later retracted entirely, claimed large reduction in mortality among COVID-19 patients given ivermectin. Although the study didn’t make the cut for publication in a scientific journal, it helped popularize ivermectin in Latin America.

As the efficacy and safety of ivermectin continued to be tested in clinical trials across the world, the results of a November 2020 publication led by Egyptian researcher Ahmed Elgazzar renewed interest in the drug’s potential. The preprint study claimed substantial recovery among COVID-19 patients given ivermectin in the early stages of infection and a reduction in mortality exceeding 90 percent. But ethical concerns led to the paper’s withdrawal in July this year.

I have no medical knowledge but I don't think we should be promoting the use of an animal de-wormer to treat COVID.
It doesn't make sense to me why people would be drawn to taking treatments like Ivermectin with virtually no proven benefits attached to them in the context of treating COVID instead of the vaccines that have been tested rigourously. If you are skeptical of the vaccine that has been developed using decades worth of research, wouldn't you apply some of that skepticism to this random medication that just appeared in the conversation of treating COVID?

 I appreciate that Snow Leopard is aiming to provide different resources of information from medical professionals in the industry– however I and I think many other people on here would prefer to listen to the medical advice of our local government and hospitals than from a random doctor on YouTube who makes bogus claims about vitamins directly preventing COVID whose comment sections are filled with right-wing COVID deniers or anti-vaccine believers.
I understand that this is a platform for debate, and please, adjust or delete my posts if I'm wrong, but I think it's irresponsible to spread misinformation or potentially harmful theories that could influence someone to seek this kind of treatment, which could put them in serious medical danger.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 02:46:48 pm by blueycan »

Geoo

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2021, 02:47:17 pm »
+17
Yes.... Because why take a free, tested vaccine when I can take horse deworming medication that's expensive, not well tested for covid, and putting people in the hospital:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/gunshot-oklahoma-hospitals-ivermectin-overdose-b1914322.html

It's just the new hydroxychloroquine..... there's nothing wrong with trying to find new treatments or preventatives for covid, but they should be tested, actually work and come from recommended sources of information like our TGA or FDA from the USA.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2021, 02:52:04 pm by Geoo »
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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2021, 04:32:45 pm »
+19
What has changed in our approach to COVID? Doesn't seem like much to me.
- We're still counting COVID cases,
SARS-COV-2 isn't the only infectious organism we count cases for? Every year the number of flu infections gets counted (amongst plenty other infections) and for certain viruses/bacteria which spread quickly and can be fatal we do the same contact tracing approach to limit spread just on a smaller scale.

still rush into lockdowns as our first and only solution
Not the only solution and neither the first, we have vaccination/social distancing/getting tested when sick. Even when we aren't in lockdown people are continuously getting tested (even when there are 0 cases in a state) and social distancing.

still see vaccines as our main way out of this pandemic (it seems like we're gonna need multiple booster shots for even this to be attained in the long run if we look at Israel)
Again not something new, SARS-COV-2 isn't the only thing we get vaccinated for and yes may need boosters.

Yes.... Because why take a free, tested vaccine when I can take horse deworming medication that's expensive, not well tested for covid, and putting people in the hospital:

It's just the new hydroxychloroquine..... there's nothing wrong with trying to find new treatments or preventatives for covid, but they should be tested, actually work and come from recommended sources of information like our TGA or FDA from the USA.
Also when something is on the TGA it is listed for specific indications (so just being on the TGA isn't enough to say it will work for a specific disease such as COVID-19) so if you look up Ivermectin you will see the topical form indicated for a certain type of skin inflammation and the oral form for some parasites.




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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2021, 08:37:13 pm »
+17
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
- Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein never said this, which sets the scene for the rest of your post.

I am not going to engage with most of the rest of your post, because you hadn't engaged with what anyone else has written, rather only continuing with your tirades. I will make two points with regards to ivermectin:

1) The reason it is not used is quite clear: there is no robust evidence that it works. There isn't some conspiracy by big pharma to stop you accessing it. We simply don't know that it works, and instead in the US people who have used animal preparations for it have ended up hospitalised. We have plenty of evidence vaccines work.

2) The admins of this board should probably consider the implications of having this misinformation published here.

The Cat In The Hat

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2021, 10:24:34 am »
0
2) The admins of this board should probably consider the implications of having this misinformation published here.
Well, at least this last post has been hidden because too many people have disliked it.
Ivermectin has had some Israeli testing from what I've heard which has had positive results. Not enough to give any clue as to dosage, though, which renders it all but useless for the general population. And there are to the best of my knowledge now better drugs that are more effective anyway. I could be wrong though.
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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2021, 02:19:19 pm »
0
From what I heard Pfizer is working on COVID tablets (not sure if they gave up yet either), so I don't think that they would be considering anything new unless they can get a lot of purchases from it (and not a few people on YouTube who claim it works).

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2021, 11:04:10 pm »
0
Our response to Coronavirus is indeed disproportionate.

Constructing and reconstructing narratives. Secret arrangements.

Same old shit.

Liberty vs. Equality.

Aristocracy vs. Meritocracy.

Society is flawed.

Proportionate responses are virtually impossible.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 11:08:14 pm by Unwonted »
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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2021, 07:59:28 pm »
+20
While mainstream media may not be fully reliable, neither is a few selected sources from Twitter.

People are entitled to individual opinions but that does not represent what their profession or what the majority of people may think.

I work in the healthcare sector. We are preparing for our system to be placed under real pressure and for it to be very strained in having to deal with the combination of COVID + regular hospital admissions. We are being asked to upskill so we can provide vaccinations to try and prevent this. We are being redeployed to areas we do not usually work in so that we can keep the healthcare system running and not buckle.

This is not a disease we can allow to run wild - we have seen what has happened overseas when this happens, and the serious consequences in regards to mortality as well as ongoing health concerns for those who do survive COVID.

All choices come with consequences (both positive and negative). Don't expect to make a choice and experience absolutely no consequences.

tiredandstressed

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2021, 10:34:55 pm »
+9
The very fact that you sourced a tweet from a member of the Liberal Council demonstrates your lack of understanding of peer-reviewed research and evidence. You have already been criticised by numerous users who have exposed the flaws in your argument, but it is very clear you come from a place of entitlement.
As many users have demonstrated COVID-19 has had significant implications for society, our healthcare system cannot keep up with the demand, resources are being exhausted and our poor healthcare works are overworked and exhausted, but despite the relentless protests that obnoxiously comes from a place of ignorance, still, healthcare works continue to do their work, out of their sheer passion for helping others and health, and to me that's admirable.

Take some time to read some journal articles and see how that enlightens your ignorance because your vendetta on here is tasteless and abhorrent. The actions of the protests prose a health risk and all in all, achieve nothing. I don't want to bash you since I think you come from a place of ignorance but you should take the time to re-read some of the comments on this thread, of people who have taken the time to read your remarks with the hope to educate you for the better.

Lockdowns and the vaccine aren't perfect, no one is claiming that it is. But right now, in this current climate, vaccinations have been proved by again peer-reviewed literature (not a tweet, not a biased article written by ruthless conservatives) that being vaccinated leads to reduced transmission and improved patient outcomes. Lockdowns aim to minimize the spread of infection, reduced contact means reduced infection. The reason you can speak so bluntly about the numbers is probably since you haven't had anyone close to you suffer from COVID or die from it, but the reality is in Australia alone, thousands of families have had to see a member of the family pass away due to COVID, and yet you should no compassion to them. Yet, if the roles were reversed you would frown against anyone who downplayed the virus if you directly saw the consequences COVID can have.

Overall, take some time to get educated and not be brainwashed by politically biased articles written by ill-hearted and uninformed journalists spreading hysteria, when during these times we need to support each other to see the light under the tunnel. I hope for your sake, you try to do better and learn more. Since this 'debate' of yours has been unproductive and it is clear you are not willing to acknowledge the other side.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 05:13:28 pm by tiredandstressed »
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tiredandstressed

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2021, 11:56:18 pm »
+7

You seem to be ignorant of the mental health issues these lockdowns are triggering. Which are also straining the health care system


Don't you find it funny, that the tweets you pulled out had nothing to do about mental health, your argument is sloppy, you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Spreading misinformation can only lead to disaster, so maybe think twice about the sources you are believing in.
As for mental health, yes I agree the lockdowns have had significant consequences to Victorian's mental health but so has COVID, could there have been a better response from the government, most likely.
Although this debate has raised some fair and 'questionable' points, ultimately actions against the government are not going to achieve much, there should be greater interventions in place to protect Victorian's mental health, and I do hope the government does indeed consider their approach of ending lockdown.
Nonetheless, promoting therapeutics and articles that are not backed up by peer-review literature is not helpful.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2021, 05:17:18 pm by tiredandstressed »
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turinturambar

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Re: Australia's response to Coronavirus is disproportionate
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2021, 12:48:31 am »
+10
You can stay home if you want, just don't expect the majority to after nearly 2 years.

This is exactly the problem with treating a community problem as an individual problem.  This is a common line in some parts of the US, and I know people in the US who were as careful as they could be, who restricted their movement far more than I did in lower-Covid Australia, and still caught it - some with serious consequences.  Why?  Because of greater community transmission rates within the US, some of it caused by people resisting the most basic of precautions due to partisan politics.

Greater community transmission increases the risk to just about every individual in that community, and there are limits to how much individual precautions can reduce that risk.  Greater case numbers also increases the burden on the healthcare system, which will affect everyone requiring hospitalisation, not just those hospitalised due to Covid.

(Oh, and it's not just the healthcare system - a large percentage of the population voluntarily reducing their activity and staying home because of fear of an infectious disease doesn't do wonders for the economy either...)

Quote
We are just avoiding the inevitable at this stage.

We are in the middle of a vaccination program, now going at speeds that rival the fastest anywhere in the world, with the aim of significantly reducing the risk of Covid-19 to individuals and society as a whole.  There is nothing "inevitable" about the result - different choices could well mean very different numbers of unvaccinated people infected and thus very different risk profiles for individuals, for the healthcare system, and for society as a whole.

I don't like lockdown.  I suspect you would find a majority on this thread don't like lockdown.  But given the significant progress that has been made and is being made with vaccination, it seems like the wrong time to give up now.

Finally, you seem to be presenting a false dichotomy where either every action of the government is 100% correct or we should just get rid of lockdowns and free everybody.  We don't have to agree with every single government decision to think that the general approach is wise in response to the current situation.
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