Second Generation Australians doing LOTE

[xXNovaxX]

Sucks to be me though, I am the son of German migrants and I didn't get tought German, they wanted to integrate into society so they scrapped their heritage and completely immersed themselves.

Not meaning to start a new debate here, but that's really unfortunate. We live in a multi-cultural society and EMBRACE other cultures. Although you said "integrate" it seems more like ASSIMILATE.

Integrate means preserving your culture but also adopting some of the culture of here.

German culture is absolutely amazing, and would have been good if you had kept it, the language and so forth.

But yeah not my place ><

[brightsky]

Sucks to be me though, I am the son of German migrants and I didn't get tought German, they wanted to integrate into society so they scrapped their heritage and completely immersed themselves.

Isnt it ironic that you chose to study French too. xD


Brightsky - Your points arent wrong, they too are unfair, but at the same time they arent relevant. The person in my hypothetical, and the people I am highlighting, are the people who speak English and German/x each as good as the other.
Also its "hence" or "why" never both. Call me petulant but I see this mistake too often, when teachers say it I shit bricks, and I wont stand by and watch it spread.

TrueTears - its good to have both sides of the argument...
Its easy to say its unfair and that life is unfair but that doesnt make it acceptable.

Lolol, I see what you mean. But I believe I'm making a perfectly pertinent and parallel example in the field of maths/science. Language is knowledge, and so is maths/science. The person in question knows two languages just because he has another language background. He is exposed to it more often. Others can be like that too, we just don't have the environment readily made for us, but rather need to seek it. There are people that have lived 40 years without knowing a single word of Chinese, but decide to settle in a Chinese speaking environment to learn that language, and after a few years he/she is perfectly fluent in the language. The streams of languages are divided into SL, (SLA), and FL for that reason, and people who fit into the related categories have a set standard of exposure to the language. I understand that for some, trying to expose yourself to the language is hard, but that doesn't entirely justify a whole new category. If that should happen, it would only be fair if they made another such category in English as well. If VCAA were to take all this into account, there would be like 10 categories (probably more) for each subject (streaming students that have been exposed to the language for say 3 months, then streaming students who have been exposed for 6 months, etc. etc. to a few years, or their whole life, just to make it "fair" which is entirely impossible taking into account the current count for numbers in each LOTE. I know I probably sound a bit rash, but you must take yourself into the shoes of someone who are in a position like that. They are good at both languages because they are genuinely exposed to them day and night, and also because they put in the effort to learn the language. You must realise that learning a language doesn't just mean listening to the language 24/7. I know many that are fluent in LOTEs because of related backgrounds, but cannot read or write in them.

Hope I make at least some sense.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

^ I see what you mean, but the vast majority of people cannot catch up to the level of a background speaker (particularly with the current LOTE teaching system). In the interest of encouraging more students to pick up a LOTE currently dominated by background speakers (as scaling incentive alone doesn't seem to be enough), I think having a heritage stream would be beneficial, as is done with Monash Uni Japanese Extension program.

[kyzoo]

About white guys doing Chinese - a white guy (not even half or 0.00001% Asian) got 38 for Chinese SL at my school and he beat everyone else including background speakers save for one who attained 45. On the other hand there was a background speaker who attained 27.

Also, I'm a second generation Australian doing LOTE and it's really not that big of an advantage as some of you guys seem to make it. It still requires a large amount of work and preacquired ability to get 40+, and my English is so much better than my Chinese that I'm speculating that it'll be my 7th subject despite its mark up and my apparant background advantage.

[EvangelionZeta]

^ I see what you mean, but the vast majority of people cannot catch up to the level of a background speaker (particularly with the current LOTE teaching system). In the interest of encouraging more students to pick up a LOTE currently dominated by background speakers (as scaling incentive alone doesn't seem to be enough), I think having a heritage stream would be beneficial, as is done with Monash Uni Japanese Extension program.

I think with the exception of Chinese (which is only as it is because hardly anyone non-Chinese does the subject) and a handful of others (which aren't popular at all state-wide except at language schools), the VCE curriculum is "limited" enough for people to catch up to background speakers.  If you look at results for French, German, Japanese and so on, the 45+ scores aren't dominated at all by background speakers; there is a larger percentage of them, perhaps, but it's not "frightening" to the extent where another streaming system is necessitated for them. 

Also, as kyzoo alluded to, background/heritage speakers aren't always going to do well.  Furthermore, what about people who border in on being "heritage", but have no advantage whatsoever to speak of? 

[brightsky]

^ I see what you mean, but the vast majority of people cannot catch up to the level of a background speaker (particularly with the current LOTE teaching system). In the interest of encouraging more students to pick up a LOTE currently dominated by background speakers (as scaling incentive alone doesn't seem to be enough), I think having a heritage stream would be beneficial, as is done with Monash Uni Japanese Extension program.

I think with the exception of Chinese (which is only as it is because hardly anyone non-Chinese does the subject) and a handful of others (which aren't popular at all state-wide except at language schools), the VCE curriculum is "limited" enough for people to catch up to background speakers.  If you look at results for French, German, Japanese and so on, the 45+ scores aren't dominated at all by background speakers; there is a larger percentage of them, perhaps, but it's not "frightening" to the extent where another streaming system is necessitated for them.  

Also, as kyzoo alluded to, background/heritage speakers aren't always going to do well.  Furthermore, what about people who border in on being "heritage", but have no advantage whatsoever to speak of?  

Great points again! The VCE Chinese exam is hardly equivalent to Year 3 or 4 Chinese in China. Writing 200 - 250 words in Chinese in not hard provided that you know your vocab, grammar and structure. It gives you very limited space to excel in your writing, and this is especially so in the translation and short answer sections where there is only a right or wrong answer.

But this is different in SACs and oral though, it's really hard to espouse a precise Chinese oratory if you're background isn't Chinese.

[Lighties]

About white guys doing Chinese - a white guy (not even half or 0.00001% Asian) got 38 for Chinese SL at my school and he beat everyone else including background speakers save for one who attained 45. On the other hand there was a background speaker who attained 27.

Also, I'm a second generation Australian doing LOTE and it's really not that big of an advantage as some of you guys seem to make it. It still requires a large amount of work and preacquired ability to get 40+, and my English is so much better than my Chinese that I'm speculating that it'll be my 7th subject despite its mark up and my apparant background advantage.

The reason why it's not such a big advantage in Chinese SL is because it's flooded with second generation Australians. Practically everyone already has a Chinese/Asian background, so to get 40+ you'd have to be somewhat insane. There even a big gap in SLA since some barely don't qualify to be in SL, while others speak Chinese better than they speak English.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Perhaps for the mainstream languages where the number of background speakers is not significant compared to non background speakers (how many Japanese people do you know?) it isn't necessary for a separate stream. But for Chinese in particular, I do think a separate stream would encourage many more non background speakers to take the subject.

Currently, being of Chinese background doing Chinese SL doesn't give you an advantage over the rest of the cohort - because practically all the students are of Chinese background anyway. A non-background speaker breaking into a cohort such as this is quite a daunting task, and would put most students off studying it at VCE level.

There are always going to be exceptions for everything though, but my main point is on bringing in more average, non-background students into studying a LOTE, particularly a language like Chinese, where the cohort is basically consisted of background students.

[IntoTheNewWorld]

Great points again! The VCE Chinese exam is hardly equivalent to Year 3 or 4 Chinese in China. Writing 200 - 250 words in Chinese in not hard provided that you know your vocab, grammar and structure. It gives you very limited space to excel in your writing, and this is especially so in the translation and short answer sections where there is only a right or wrong answer.

But this is different in SACs and oral though, it's really hard to espouse a precise Chinese oratory if you're background isn't Chinese.

It's all relative; when everyone is Chinese and you're not, it will be much harder for you to be higher in the cohort. LOTE can be pushed further than the syllabus; most apparent during the Oral Examination and the essay.

[*ryan777*]

im sorry, but i still have to agree with smrandmazn about the heritage stream
while it is possible for anyone to do well in a LOTE subject regardless of background the amount of effort it takes for person A to get 40 and person B to get 40 is worlds apart
i know of white people who have done asian LOTEs and done well, but they had to do SO MUCH work compared to others with bachground in the language that its just crazy
but this is just my opnion and i do realise that its not always the case

[crayolé]

Not sure if you guys already know but in HSC. If you speak the LOTE at home thats another subject. They still have first and second language LOTE's with that added.

i think there is also a stream for if u havent studied it proir to year 11 or something

Yeah, I came from NSW last year and was devastated when I couldnt pick up Japanese for year 11 because we only studied LOTE in year 7/8.
In the HSC, you can pick either Beginners or Continuers course.
I'm pretty sure you could pick Beginners no matter how good your language was which probably meant a free 100%

[*ryan777*]

Not sure if you guys already know but in HSC. If you speak the LOTE at home thats another subject. They still have first and second language LOTE's with that added.

i think there is also a stream for if u havent studied it proir to year 11 or something

Yeah, I came from NSW last year and was devastated when I couldnt pick up Japanese for year 11 because we only studied LOTE in year 7/8.
In the HSC, you can pick either Beginners or Continuers course.
I'm pretty sure you could pick Beginners no matter how good your language was which probably meant a free 100%

do they check into your education background before doing begginers? it would seem its full of "good" students just going after an easy A+

[kyzoo]

^ Your parents don't affect your English at all.

[*ryan777*]

^ Your parents don't affect your English at all.

how so?

[minilunchbox]

^ Your parents don't affect your English at all.

how so?

My parents are migrants and are still unable to hold a conversation using basic English yet I've managed to excel in it. If you're born here, you're going to be exposed to English from a really young age anyway. Having parents who aren't able to communicate with you in English only allows you to simultaneously learn 2 (or more) languages.