Commerce (actuarial studies) question

[brendan]

I wouldn't say Methods is a good indication of one's ability to succeed in actuarial studies though.

It was more of a indicator of ability to get 38 or above in Spesh, which is the prereq for Actuarial Science program at UoM. You can dispute whether getting above 38 is good indicator of succeeding in subjects required for the Actuarial program, but the UoM math and econ departments certainly seem to think so.

[nickalaz]

id say thats a bit rough.

getting an A+ in the methods exams should be enough. a few silly mistakes on the exams and you can be down to a score of ~39-42... however you would still have a strong grasp of the concepts to be able to get a score like that.

I think it would take more than just silly mistakes to drop to 35 though.

i was referring to your '45ish raw' statement.

however i also disagree. With further maths last year, i knew all aspects of the course - and had no difficulty with any of the concepts, but silly mistakes in the exams brought me down to a 37.

[brendan]

With further maths last year, i knew all aspects of the course - and had no difficulty with any of the concepts, but silly mistakes in the exams brought me down to a 37.

Well I think the 37 tells a different story as to your knowledge of the content.

[dekoyl]

What is so challenging about what actuarial studies has to offer? (I'm not doubting the course, I'm just ignorant as I don't know what the course is. My knowledge of actuarial studies is very limited). Just interested =]

They pay off seems to be pretty good, though. ~$80-100k salary for this year.

[shinny]

your specialist study score isn't necessarily a good indicator either. the exam consists of several elaborate scenarios and accompanying questions. it can be difficult to complete it all satisfactorily in 2 hours. the calculus itself isn't particularly challenging and can be mastered without mastering the specialist exam.

Well of course there's no perfect indicator except the exam itself, but I'd still say Specialist would be the best indicator as it more accurately measures one's ability to comprehend higher level Maths, rather than just grind questions which can be handled by little kids in Asian countries which you see in Methods.

It was more of a indicator of ability to get 38 or above in Spesh, which is the prereq for Actuarial Science program at UoM. You can dispute whether getting above 38 is good indicator of succeeding in subjects required for the Actuarial program, but the UoM math and econ departments certainly seem to think so.

Well that's assuming that people will score approximately the same in either subject, which they clearly do not. Specialist and Methods require quite different skills in my opinion, and many people have quite big disparities between their Specialist and Methods scores, not only shown by my scores, but others as well (I'm not going to pull out a list of evidence but it definitely has happened to my friends too).

[nickalaz]

what im trying to say is there is a very very fine line between the reason for your score - and whether it is due to mistakes, or a lack of ability.

and my 37 was due primarily to being tricked by the exams. i had a strong grasp of how to actually do the maths, however i often mistook what exactly the question was asking me to do. I would apply the correct maths for what I thought I had to do, however this wasn't what was asked - and thus would lose me marks.

[brendan]

Well that's assuming that people will score approximately the same in either subject, which they clearly do not.

But it is a good assumption, because that's exactly how the VCE Math subjects were designed to scale.

Back to the original topic though. I don't think it would be such a good idea to do the Actuarial program at UoM given that:

- the candidate has a study score of 35 in methods, which in scaled subject score terms is much less than 38 raw in Specialist Mathematics.
- is not willing to take Specialist mathematics which may signal something about the candidate's ability in mathematics
- doing the Actuarial program at UoM without a 38 or above in Specialist Mathematics would mean ruling yourself out of CA/CPA accreditation for not being able to fit in BPA.

[shinny]

But like I said, they require quite different skills. Methods is more lower level knowledge, so people who just grind can often do quite well. This however does not work so well with Specialist and you actually need quite a good level of Mathematical comprehension. Since they require two quite different skills, this is just like saying the scaling system allows someone who took up French (yes exaggerated, but I lack a closer example) and Methods to do equally as well as they would if they took up Methods and Spesh. To me, they definitely seem like two quite distinct subjects. However, if you wish to disagree that's fine since there's really nothing supporting what I think; it's just my own experience with the subjects and how they felt when I undertook them, and obviously this will change between people.

[brendan]

But like I said, they require quite different skills. Methods is more lower level knowledge, so people who just grind can often do quite well. This however does not work so well with Specialist and you actually need quite a good level of Mathematical comprehension.

Yeah but scaling within the VCE Mathematics subjects specifically takes care of this:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24798081-5018535,00.html
Mathematics

VCE mathematics studies are designed to cater for students of differing abilities and interests.

Specialist Mathematics is the most difficult, followed by Mathematical Methods and then by Further Mathematics.

To ensure that students undertaking the more difficult mathematics studies are not disadvantaged, Mathematical Methods is compared with Further Mathematics and adjusted up if necessary.

Similarly Specialist Mathematics is compared to Mathematical Methods and adjusted up if necessary.

[shinny]

Yeah but scaling within the VCE Mathematics subjects specifically takes care of this:

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,24798081-5018535,00.html
Mathematics

VCE mathematics studies are designed to cater for students of differing abilities and interests.

Specialist Mathematics is the most difficult, followed by Mathematical Methods and then by Further Mathematics.

To ensure that students undertaking the more difficult mathematics studies are not disadvantaged, Mathematical Methods is compared with Further Mathematics and adjusted up if necessary.

Similarly Specialist Mathematics is compared to Mathematical Methods and adjusted up if necessary.

I'd respond to that but this thread's getting heavily derailed so I guess make up your own mind on whether you think you're capable. In trying to get back to the point, by no means am I saying go for actuary even if you didn't do too well in Methods; definitely don't underestimate the difficulty of actuarial studies - as Brendan someone said, it has a high drop out rate. I'm just saying that your Methods score is by no means an end all in deciding what you want to do.

[brendan]

I think someone else mentioned that it has a high drop out rate, I have no idea where the figure comes from, but I would not be surprised if it were high. Scaling within the VCE Mathematics subjects themselves is specifically designed so that you could compare scaled ENTER subject scores between the VCE Mathematics. This is different from how scaling works outside the VCE Mathematics subjects.

[vce08]

What exactly makes people say actuarial is so hard?

[costargh]

Hypothetically, what if someone got 50 in Methods but then decided not to do Specialist maths. What happens then?

[brendan]

they would have to do the program that squance's friend is doing which means your program will look exactly like this:
http://www.bcom.unimelb.edu.au/bachelor/actuarial_studies.html

but
Acc Math 1 is replaced with Calculus 1
Acc Math 2 is replaced with Calculus 2
Introduction to Actuarial Studies is replaced with Linear Algebra

Heres a first year program I prepared earlier than keeps all your options open:

http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,2628.0.html

[methodsboy]

ookkk. what are your opinions of actuarial studies at Monash?