ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => VCE Mathematics/Science/Technology => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE Science => Topic started by: appianway on March 13, 2010, 09:57:02 pm
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Just a thread for all those preparing for the NQEs or alumini of the programs.
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Just a thread for all those preparing for the NQEs or alumini of the programs.
LOL good on you (we can't keep impeding on the Maths Comps thread :D)
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olympics but for science?
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olympics but for science?
Info at http://www.asi.edu.au/olympiads/
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Exactly! This is how the program works, if you don't want to try and scroll through the website:
Stage 1: Students are selected by their schools to sit the NQEs (National Qualifying Examinations) in physics, chemistry and biology
Students are generally in year 11, but it's certainly possible to sit it in year 10. Most schools heavily restrict the number of students taking the examinations - they're pitched at a level so that only the top 2 or so in an average sized cohort really have a chance at answering more than a handful of questions.
Stage 2: The NQE
These are in around August, and test the concepts underpinning the sciences. A large amount of preparation is recommended for chemistry though - the whole multiple choice section tests knowledge, not reasoning skills. It's also recommended to try and do a few practice problems beforehand to get into the right zone of thinking - the thought processes required differ dramatically from VCE - there's a lot of first principles.
Certificates of High Distinction, Distinction, Credit and Participation are awarded after the NQE. The top 24 or so students across Australia in each science are then invited to participate in the summer school.
Stage 3: The Summer School
2.5 weeks at Monash in January, with around 13 hours of science a day. Students cover approximately the first year university course of their chosen discipline (with many programs extending beyond this), participating in labs and sitting examinations. Students then have about 6 weeks before the Final Selection Exam (FSE), which is used to select the national teams.
Trust me. It's hard.
Stage 4: The teams
The teams then attend another training program at Monash in April, before heading off across the globe to compete in the international biology olympiad (IBO), the international chemistry olympiad (IChO) and the international physics olympiad (IPhO). Physics usually participates in the Asian Pacific Physics Olympiad too.
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Oh so do you have your FSE soon appianway?
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Or some schools don't even enter students at all unless the students pester their teachers heaps (*cough cough*)
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I had my FSE. Exactly one week ago.
They're probably marking them as I type. The tutors converge today and tomorrow in Sydney to mark the papers...
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Hence what I wrote earlier:
("Fear not," says I, for mighty dread had seized appianway's troubled mind
"Glad tidings of great joy it'll (the phone call) bring
To you and all man-kind")
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by the way .. for those sample NQE exams ...
do they have answers?
they look fun ~~~
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A large amount of preparation is recommended for chemistry though - the whole multiple choice section tests knowledge, not reasoning skills. It's also recommended to try and do a few practice problems beforehand to get into the right zone of thinking - the thought processes required differ dramatically from VCE - there's a lot of first principles.
How much prep would you need?
My school randomly entered me in along with 10 or so others students. I did no prep whatsoever, as I was only concerned about learning the 1/2 course, and I found I couldn't answer most of the questions. The questions I did answer, I had to rely heavily on first-principles and making connections on the spot, but otherwise, I had no idea about how functional groups were meant to react and how "protective functional groups" were meant to work. LOL I didn't even know what redox reactions were back then, so I got totally raped. Somehow got Distinction >.<.
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you're a true genius~~
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I see they've changed the website and only have 2007-9 papers.
Here's some more for anyone interested :)
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And some more :)
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And more :)
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That's all for physics, I've got the same years of Chemistry, please email me if you want them :)
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A large amount of preparation is recommended for chemistry though - the whole multiple choice section tests knowledge, not reasoning skills. It's also recommended to try and do a few practice problems beforehand to get into the right zone of thinking - the thought processes required differ dramatically from VCE - there's a lot of first principles.
How much prep would you need?
My school randomly entered me in along with 10 or so others students. I did no prep whatsoever, as I was only concerned about learning the 1/2 course, and I found I couldn't answer most of the questions. The questions I did answer, I had to rely heavily on first-principles and making connections on the spot, but otherwise, I had no idea about how functional groups were meant to react and how "protective functional groups" were meant to work. LOL I didn't even know what redox reactions were back then, so I got totally raped. Somehow got Distinction >.<.
For Chemistry, I didn't prep too much - I had a bit of a look at redox reactions beforehand, including galvanic cells. I also had a quick skim through the concept of equilibrium which can be related to lots of things. I ended up doing most things on the spot too - my best mark was actually on the redox question, according to the chemistry program director. That said, I think that preparation for the chemistry NQE can really make a difference - seeing as you only need about 40% to qualify, if you gun the multiple choice and can get most of the "easy" questions in the extended response correct, you're almost in. I had a high enough score to attend the summer school in chemistry, but I did much better in physics, so if anyone wants some more information about chemistry, I might get evildoctorcow to post.
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Oh, and if anyone wants any help with past physics NQEs, I generally got above 90% on the ones I did for practise, so I might be able to help a bit.
== I'm so stupid. I just opened the 2009 NQE to have a look out of curiousity and started thinking about how easy it seemed because it was so familiar.
I then realised that it was the paper that I actually sat.
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Oh, and if anyone wants any help with past physics NQEs, I generally got above 90% on the ones I did for practise, so I might be able to help a bit.
== I'm so stupid. I just opened the 2009 NQE to have a look out of curiousity and started thinking about how easy it seemed because it was so familiar.
I then realised that it was the paper that I actually sat.
LOLOLOL probs would have been easy for you anyway ;D
Oh, I'm relying on you to get me through this :)
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Parts of the physics NQE were easy, parts weren't. Didn't like the differential equations question, probably because I didn't know what they were. It was a fun paper overall though.
I did think I'd failed chemistry though.
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I'm pleased to say that three girls are on the APhO physics team.
Including two from Mac.Rob. ;D
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@AzureBlue, I qualified for the olympiad school in physics and chemistry (although I didn't know about chemistry until the camp), and I just found out a few days ago that I made the team for physcis... well, at least for the Asian Olympiad (the IPhO team's selected from the APhO team after the competition... there are 8 people on the APhO team and 5 go on to IPhO). So yes, in short - I made the summer school and the team.
The current biology papers are apparently quite different to the old ones - they might not be a useful guide.
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I see they've changed the website and only have 2007-9 papers.
Here's some more for anyone interested :)
2007-2009? I believe that I can only view the 2009 papers on: http://www.aso.edu.au/nqe/pastpapers.php
Can you please put up the 2007 and 2008 papers if you have them? Many thanks :)
Sorry, just 2007 :)
I got chem if anyone wants them too
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Nah only 2000-7 physics and chem (the ones i'm doing this year)
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LOL AzureBlue, I don't know if I'll be going to IPhO as I said- it's more probable than not, but I'm definitely going to APhO in about 6 weeks! APhO's the Asian Physics Olympiad, and Australia sends a team of 8 from which the IPhO group of 5 comes.
I think the style of 2009, and possibly 2008 was different to the earlier years in biology, so you might not find ones before that too useful. The earlier ones seemed to have a larger emphasis on knowledge than reasoning; now it's the opposite.
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Nah only 2000-7 physics and chem (the ones i'm doing this year)
Ahh, okay don't worry then - just wondering, where did you get the 2007 papers for physics and chem, I thought they previously only had 2000-2006 on the ASO website.
Nah they had up to 07 :)
Also, do you have to have done 3/4 to do well in the science olympiads and is it similar to maths olympiads where VCE maths is almost irrelevant - more problem solving?
Definitely not, completely unrelated i think, the only thing that is important is the NQE :)
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APhO is very, very different from APMO. APhO's almost as selective as IPhO - the teams are the same (think of physics as having two olympiads that the team members participate in), just slightly larger, and some members opt not to continue onto IPhO due to the immense time commitment.
It's probably better to think of APhO as IPhO, but restricted to the Asia Pacific region - to tell the truth, this probably makes it more competitive! The selection process for APhO is identical to that for IPhO if teams don't enter APhO (which happened last year due to the security situation), so getting in's roughly as difficult as making it into the IPhO team if it were chosen directly after the summer school (people tended to work harder once they knew APhO was going ahead because they thought they had more of a chance!). The exact IPhO team will be confirmed after APhO, but the APhO team's still the team anyway - most of the competitors will go on to IPhO (it's impossible to go to IPhO without doing APhO), and besides, the preparation for APhO and the competition itself are pretty much the same as IPhO.
APMO's very different as well - APMO requires competitors to be in the top 30-40 maths students in the country, whereas APhO is much, much more selective. The training for APhO's identical to the training for IPhO if Australia doesn't send a team to APhO - the team goes to the Easter Training Camp, does a lot of extra work and goes away. We're going to Taipei this year, so that should be fun! APhO runs identically to IPhO - the structure of the programs are the same. The APhO website's here (http://www.phy.ntnu.edu.tw/apho2010/) if you want to have a look at how it works. I know that the APhO team also receive Australian team shirts (all of the I*O teams do too), and I heard from one of the tutors that we also get the Australian blazers, but I can't confirm that.
As for VCE and science olympiads? That's a bit more complicated. To give you a bit of an idea, there were something like 17 Victorians at the Summer School this year across all three sciences, and to my knowledge, 5 of us scored raws of 50s in year 11. So far, the biology and physics teams have been announced, and out of the 4 Victorians chosen, 3 had 50s in year 11. One had quite a bit lower. Even though I 50ed physics in year 11, I don't think it helped me for olympiad - it's a completely different style (as in, it actually entails thought), and the knowledge that we covered in the 3/4 course was miniscule in comparison to what we did at olympiad camp.
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is there an Asian Chemistry Olympiad?
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No. Asia's more intense about physics :P
That said, both IChO and IBO are in Asia this year (in Japan and Korea respectively).
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How many people actually compete in these competitions (in Australia)? Is it only more academically gifted schools? I went to a rural school and never heard of anything other than IMO and IMO I found out because of Derrick Ha mentioning Terry Tao.
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A few thousand students sit each NQE each year. However, these students are usually in the top 2% or so intellectually - most schools are very selective about who they allow to take the paper (they're notoriously difficult), and often really smart students encourage their schools to participate. The vast majority of the very brightest students (not always the top scorers in VCE) sit the papers - all of the very best selective and private schools from around the country enter, and most often the top NQE performers are attracted to schools like this because they "fit in" better/are offered scholarships. Most students who have the potential to be top scorers also hear about the competitions from friends - people who are likely to do well often win other prizes and do other programs, and hence meet other participants. The academic world in Australia is quite small...
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Chemistry and Biology always have the highest number of year 10s participating in the program. You could give it a shot - you never know! Not sure if either of the year 11s in the chemistry program this year will make the team; one from biology did.
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Ok thanks for the info :) I will give the biology olympiad a shot this year (I'm year 10 doing 1/2) just for fun, because since it's only one week after the AMOC Senior Contest, AIMO and AMC, I will probably be preparing hard for those and not the biology. Ok, do you think the chem is worth a shot if I'm only doing year 10 chem (school doesn't offer 1/2 in yr 10)?
May as well try, if you get in, then you can do it during Yr 11 rather than spending valuable Yr 12 time :)
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Yeah, olympiad's going to slaughter my VCE. I'd have loved to have done it last year... would've liked to have done two different sciences! And it's definitely possible to go and do well in year 11 - you learn most of the material there anyway.
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Yeah, olympiad's going to slaughter my VCE. I'd have loved to have done it last year... would've liked to have done two different sciences! And it's definitely possible to go and do well in year 11 - you learn most of the material there anyway.
I haven't asked you yet, any yr 11s at summer school?
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Quite a few. There were none in Physics, a few in biology and two in chemistry. One of the biology students made it onto the team.
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Are year 12s not allowed to sit the papers?
It's only yr 11 or younger :P
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So most people who are sitting the olympiads are only doing maximum unit 1/2 in the subject?
Yeah most, but some are doing 3/4 (eg. appianway last year :P)
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So most people who are sitting the olympiads are only doing maximum unit 1/2 in the subject?
Yeah most, but some are doing 3/4 (eg. appianway last year :P)
Ok, but aren't the olympiads a bit hard for people doing year 10 or 1/2? I'm not sure if I'll do chem olympiad - I'll c how I find it after I do year 10 chem.
Yeah thats what I thought, but appianway says there's hardly any hard topics and not much unit 3 up.
So if you do some extra prep, like I'm starting now, you should be fine in yr 11
Probs not a good idea to do it in yr 10, but if you're confident then go for it! :D
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Most people who sit the olympiads are only doing 1/2 in their subject, with the possible exception of biology. That said, almost everyone from NSW and WA doesn't accelerate their subjects, and even if they did, the NSW curricula for chemistry and physics are ridiculously bad.
The most important thing to remember is that the NQEs ultimately test reasoning ability. You can honestly get into any of the subjects with a limited knowledge of the field - if you know the basics, you'll be fine. As the cut off for chemistry is generally about 35-40% on the NQE, if you can get the multiple choice and simple questions that require knowledge you can get in, but you can still make it if you're still brilliant... it's just harder. Just remember that the work at the summer school and the FSEs are MUCH, MUCH more difficult than the NQE, so if you get into the summer school for chemistry based solely on knowledge you might not do amazingly later in the program. The physics paper didn't require much knowledge - if students knew conservation of momentum and how forces act, it was doable.
Oh, and guys, keep in mind that the olympiads are hard, irrespective of how old you are. They're designed to identify the top handful of students in the country. Not your class, not your school, your suburb or Melbourne or Victoria - but Australia.
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Yeah thats what I thought, but appianway says there's hardly any hard topics and not much unit 3 up.
So if you do some extra prep, like I'm starting now, you should be fine in yr 11
Probs not a good idea to do it in yr 10, but if you're confident then go for it! :D
Okay, then I'll do Biology this year and leave chem for next year! I think it's best to mainly just stick to the maths olympiads like AMO, Senior Contest, AIMO etc... because it's kinda hard to work hard for a gazillion olympiads at once which are a week apart :)
Yeah ... just a bit ;)
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Teams have now been officially announced!
Science:
http://www.asi.edu.au/newsroom/mediareleases/
Maths:
http://www.amt.canberra.edu.au/olteams2010.html
For physics, there's a team of 8 - all of the listed team members went to the APhO in April, and 5 of the 8 are continuing (as usual) to IPhO in July.
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Blazers was a LOT of fun. Although you do get really tired of doing the cheesy grin thing over and over...
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Congratz appianway, wish you all the best!
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Thanks :)
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IPhO's in late July, but we have training beforehand at USyd.
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I'll be missing about 3 weeks of school. Add that to the 2 weeks missed for APhO and you've got my VCE in ruins...
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I'll be missing about 3 weeks of school. Add that to the 2 weeks missed for APhO and you've got my VCE in ruins...
Haha you'll be fine!
Congrats again! :D
Tell me about Canberra on sat :P
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I'm doing 4 VCE + UMEP Physics. The physics olympiad program seems to take up way more time than the others because of the dual olympiad thing..
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APhO's actually an ISO - it's not like APMO which isn't considered one (the whole APhO team is hailed as the physics team, for instance). It goes for almost as long as IPhO and it's overseas as well - we just didn't have training beforehand. We'll have a few days at USyd before Croatia though, and also a few days in Croatia :)
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Well, the Australian government only recognises IMO, IPhO, IChO, IOI and IBO.
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lol also there's International Computational Linguistics Olympiad
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I was told 20 mins before doing the physics thing that I was doing it. I got out of english so didn't care (though english would have been more fun) - everyone in the room just stared at each other.
Bit bullshit considering the non-MP questions were largely just maths with lots and lots of letters.
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I went to the chem one without knowing redox... :(
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@ schnappy, yeah, the physics NQE last year had quite a bit of maths (more than in my year), but question 1 was partially stolen from part of a section of question A from the Asian Physics Olympiad (APhO question 1....)... and there was also a lab based question and the Coriolis question. I'd still argue that it's a far better measure of physics ability than any of the other non invitational events (ICAS, IYPT, random science competitions, VCE even).
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The 2010 Chem NQE was much easier than 2009, although it was bloody long...
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The 2010 Chem NQE was much easier than 2009, although it was bloody long...
Especially if you didn't know any yr 12 chem, or even yr 11 gas laws and redox... :(
Wish I attempted physics...
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The 2010 Chem NQE was much easier than 2009, although it was bloody long...
Wish I attempted physics...
I wish I knew about Olympiads prior to this year...
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LOL now that's just insane >.> Personally, I wish I'd been allowed/begged to be able to sit earlier, and actually studied for the NQEs and hence gone to physics and chemistry camp. But it is what it is. Had a great time in the physics program ^_^
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I hope I will survive the torture of the FSE...