ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: Cthulhu on June 01, 2010, 02:50:10 pm
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(http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3amrjs5NI1qzusjlo1_400.jpg)
Yeah.
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instead of anti-israel i think its anti-zionist?
EDIT: also i really don't like that the term anti-semitic refers to being anti-jew as there are a lot of other languages that come from the semitic branch eg Aramaic, arabic, syriac so why does anti-semitic only refer to being anti-jew?
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Being anti-Israel does not automatically make one anti-semitic, that much is true.
However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
And about that ^ picture: I think everyone, Jewish or not, wants Israel to stop killing 'palestinians' (whatever the hell they are) but that can only happen when palestinian actions no longer pose a direct threat to the lives of Israeli citizens.
All the while there are terrorists out there with the stated aim of destroying Israel and everyone in it, as is to be found in the founding charter of Hamas, Israel will be forced into taking defensive action, as we saw yesterday, to stop that happening.
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FREE FREE PALESTINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A big mistake dealing with the Turks! Do not underestimate them!!
WE WILL TAKE THIS OT THE STREETS AND PROTEST IT!!!
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It's so cute watching Israel behave like a superpower ;]
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All the while there are terrorists out there with the stated aim of destroying Israel and everyone in it, as is to be found in the founding charter of Hamas, Israel will be forced into taking defensive action, as we saw yesterday, to stop that happening.
mate, there are terrorists on both sides...
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FREE FREE PALESTINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A big mistake dealing with the Turks! Do not underestimate them!!
WE WILL TAKE THIS OT THE STREETS AND PROTEST IT!!!
Free palestine from whom, for whom?
mate, there are terrorists on both sides...
I don't know of any Israeli suicide bombers...
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FREE FREE PALESTINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A big mistake dealing with the Turks! Do not underestimate them!!
WE WILL TAKE THIS OT THE STREETS AND PROTEST IT!!!
Free palestine from whom, for whom?
mate, there are terrorists on both sides...
I don't know of any Israeli suicide bombers...
Since when was the term 'terrorist' specifically defined as a suicide bomber
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mate, there are terrorists on both sides...
I don't know of any Israeli suicide bombers...
Since when was the term 'terrorist' specifically defined as a suicide bomber
I was using a specific example to demonstrate a wider point, which still stands
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FREE FREE PALESTINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A big mistake dealing with the Turks! Do not underestimate them!!
WE WILL TAKE THIS OT THE STREETS AND PROTEST IT!!!
[future university activist who everyone tries their best to avoid the gaze of, lest they be ambushed]
However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
I single China out for criticism of its censorship policies because I know the specifics of that country the best, does that make me anti-Chinese?
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
I single China out for criticism of its censorship policies because I know the specifics of that country the best, does that make me anti-Chinese?
Well... yes, to a point.
but I'm talking more about newspapers and governments and the UN in particular, all of whom know plenty about the specifics of every country, yet single out Israel for criticism. I can bring you dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of this, if you so wish.
On a (somewhat) related note: This man is my hero. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
"But mommy, he started it." Just because there are worse cases does not excuse anything.
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mate, there are terrorists on both sides...
I don't know of any Israeli suicide bombers...
Since when was the term 'terrorist' specifically defined as a suicide bomber
I was using a specific example to demonstrate a wider point, which still stands
Well the way you stated it, made it sound as if the only terrorists were the Palestinian suicide bombers.
I think you’re being a little prejudiced, particularly after writing this.
“However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.”
Slightly hypocritical don’t you think since all you’ve done thus far is single out the Palestinian extremists.
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i think people should watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06655i1Z-p0&has_verified=1
a little bit of perspective
sad on both sides...
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
"But mommy, he started it." Just because there are worse cases does not excuse anything.
I didn't say it does. You're putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it. All I said was, singling out Israel for criticism out of all possible countries who may be deserving of it, is a result of anti-semitism.
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
"But mommy, he started it." Just because there are worse cases does not excuse anything.
I didn't say it does. You're putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it. All I said was, singling out Israel for criticism out of all possible countries who may be deserving of it, is a result of anti-semitism.
As opposed to singling out Palestine which is acceptable...
You can point the finger all you want. I’m not going to do that. In summary, theres two different sides to the story and a deep history in this. Both sides have suffered casualties. If it were an ideal world the conflict would just stop, but its not and it won’t.
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
"But mommy, he started it." Just because there are worse cases does not excuse anything.
I didn't say it does. You're putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it. All I said was, singling out Israel for criticism out of all possible countries who may be deserving of it, is a result of anti-semitism.
As opposed to singling out Palestine which is acceptable...
You can point the finger all you want. I’m not going to do that. In summary, theres two different sides to the story and a deep history in this. Both sides have suffered casualties. If it were an ideal world the conflict would just stop, but its not and it won’t.
Firstly: There is no such state as 'Palestine'.
Secondly: When I say singling out, I mean in a wider context, ie singling out Israeli killing of civilians but ignoring the killing of civilians by other countries. (America killed a few this week, did you see any front-page headlines?)
And I don't single out 'palestine'. I admit that Israel has committed wrongs, albeit nowhere near as much. I also admit that every other country in the world has also done things they shouldn't have.
You're right, in an ideal world the conflict would stop. But in the words of Binyamin Netenyahu: ‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel’
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
I single China out for criticism of its censorship policies because I know the specifics of that country the best, does that make me anti-Chinese?
Well... yes, to a point.
but I'm talking more about newspapers and governments and the UN in particular, all of whom know plenty about the specifics of every country, yet single out Israel for criticism. I can bring you dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of this, if you so wish.
Plenty of criticism about China too, even though there's plenty of other countries with just as many human rights abuses. Does that make them wrong? No.
I love my country and I certainly do not hate my own race. But I'm not so blinded by rose goggles that I don't see the horrors the Chinese government is capable of perpetrating. And if disproportionate focus upon those abuses ends up changing their ways, then focus away.
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However, singling out Israel for criticism, while ignoring worse cases elsewhere, is absolutely 100% anti-semitism, and anyone who denies that is deluding themselves.
"But mommy, he started it." Just because there are worse cases does not excuse anything.
I didn't say it does. You're putting words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it. All I said was, singling out Israel for criticism out of all possible countries who may be deserving of it, is a result of anti-semitism.
As opposed to singling out Palestine which is acceptable...
You can point the finger all you want. I’m not going to do that. In summary, theres two different sides to the story and a deep history in this. Both sides have suffered casualties. If it were an ideal world the conflict would just stop, but its not and it won’t.
Firstly: There is no such state as 'Palestine'.
Secondly: When I say singling out, I mean in a wider context, ie singling out Israeli killing of civilians but ignoring the killing of civilians by other countries. (America killed a few this week, did you see any front-page headlines?)
And I don't single out 'palestine'. I admit that Israel has committed wrongs, albeit nowhere near as much. I also admit that every other country in the world has also done things they shouldn't have.
You're right, in an ideal world the conflict would stop. But in the words of Binyamin Netenyahu: ‘If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel’
Firstly, most of the countries of the world do actually recognise Palestine as a state. And how is this in anyway relevant to what we were talking about. I never mentioned anything about it, I'm stumped to the reason you'd bring that up (the only explanation I can come up with is that you're trying to degrade Palestine as much as you can and just thought that was another point to bring up)
Secondly, your view that Israel is the only nation being singled out... pfft. Thats a ridiculous view. Whenever a country does something controversial they are singled out. Are you kidding about America not being at the forefront of media or being 'singled out'? They have been blatantly blasted by many for there actions in Iraq and they've also been praised for there actions. Same goes for Israel bud, they have there supporters (you, obviously), but they will also get critisized. Same again with Palestine.
'Israel has committed wrongs' - correct, and so have Palestine
'Albeit nowhere near as much as Palestine' - Well thats your personal opinion, but in the past 5 years atleast the Palestinian casualties have exceeded those of Israel by over 1000%
Look there are two very different and complicated sides to the story. According to my understanding, after WW2, the Europeans promised and the UN voted for the partition of Palestine into two different states (one being the creation of a Jewish state: Israel). Obviously the arabs weren't very happy, many were pushed aside for Israel, but the Israeli's had definitely had there fair share of suffering during WW2. Thus all the civil wars, blah blah blah. But in summary that's why Palestine won't ever stop fighting. Imagine if the leaders of the world decided to take some land from Australia and allocate it to another nation, forcing Australians to relocate. We would no doubt fight for our land back, and it would be easier said then done saying something like "Yea Australia we've taken your land, we know you're upset but if you just stop fighting for it back then the violence will stop". Its not a very credible thing to say because we obviously won't stop fighting.
Believe me I'm not trying to pick sides. It may seem, by the way I've explained things here, that I've sided with Palestine but I am well and truly on the fence. I understand what they went through in WW2 was very horrific, perhaps the worst treatment of humans of all time, and that they too had there land stripped from them a few thousand years ago, but right now I'm just hoping, someday, a peace agreement will be somehow reached but like I said before, given the deep roots of this conflict I guess thats just not very likely.
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Your history is actually incorrect. In 1917, way before WW2, the British, who had a mandate over the entire area at the time, issued the Balfour Declaration, which was a promise to recreate a Jewish state in their homeland. In 1947, this was formalised by the UN, who offered a partition plan. It is worth noting that under the terms of that proposal, Israel would be far, far smaller than it ever was, and there would have been a palestinian state in much of the area now known as Israel. But despite this, the Arabs rejected the plan, and ever since, the majority of the Arab world has refused to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
Your analogy about Australia is also incorrect, as the palestinians never, ever, had sovereignty over any part of that land.
About the singling out issue: This week, Israel killed nine armed combatants, and it makes headlines and lead news around the world for three days running. Last week, America killed a family of civilians, and it just about made the news as a small reference in part of a larger story. I could bring you countless other examples.
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Your analogy about Australia is also incorrect, as the palestinians never, ever, had sovereignty over any part of that land.
Reasons?
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About the singling out issue: This week, Israel killed nine armed combatants, and it makes headlines and lead news around the world for three days running. Last week, America killed a family of civilians, and it just about made the news as a small reference in part of a larger story. I could bring you countless other examples.
doesn't change what Israel did
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Your analogy about Australia is also incorrect, as the palestinians never, ever, had sovereignty over any part of that land.
Reasons?
I don't understand, reasons for what? What I said is true, never in history has there ever been a state for palestinians, in the Middle East or anywhere else. That's because the palestinian nation is a brand new creation, born in the 1950s out of hate for Israel. If you don't believe that coming from me, perhaps you'll believe it coming from Zahir Muhsein, a senior member of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation:
The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct “Palestinian people” to oppose Zionism.
‘For tactical reasons, Jordan, which is a sovereign state with defined borders, cannot raise claims to Haifa and Jaffa, while as a Palestinian, I can undoubtedly demand Haifa, Jaffa, Beer-Sheva and Jerusalem. However, the moment we reclaim our right to all of Palestine, we will not wait even a minute to unite Palestine and Jordan.
About the singling out issue: This week, Israel killed nine armed combatants, and it makes headlines and lead news around the world for three days running. Last week, America killed a family of civilians, and it just about made the news as a small reference in part of a larger story. I could bring you countless other examples.
doesn't change what Israel did
You're right, but I see no problem with the killing of armed combatants, with links to terrorist organisations, who instigated a combat situation against a military force, such as this was.
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these articles are interesting
How Sharon and the Likud Party nurtured the rise of Hamas and benefit from its terrorism
http://www.mediamonitors.net/hanania46.html
America's Hidden Role in Hamas's Rise to Power
http://www.alternet.org/world/116855/america's_hidden_role_in_hamas's_rise_to_power/?page=entire
Israel and Palestine: A Brief History
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm
i hope this thread doesn't turn into something like this thread
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,9385.0.html
Opinion from both a palestinian and israeli
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2n8bFMUeUc&feature=PlayList&p=C551BED4AC1707A6&playnext_from=PL
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to be honest i find a discussion on this topic pointless because no matter what the other side says it's not going to change your original opinion, obviously jews are gonna believe that this is their land and palestine doesn't exist likewise arabs are gonna believe that this is their land and the jews stole it, so what exactly is the point to this whole conversation it's not going to come to and end just like i personally believe the war between the arabs and jews will never end.
just my 2 cents :D
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this article is interesting
How Sharon and the Likud Party nurtured the rise of Hamas and benefit from its terrorism
http://www.mediamonitors.net/hanania46.html
That article may be interesting, but it's also utter nonsense
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to be honest i find a discussion on this topic pointless because no matter what the other side says it's not going to change your original opinion, obviously jews are gonna believe that this is their land and palestine doesn't exist likewise arabs are gonna believe that this is their land and the jews stole it, so what exactly is the point to this whole conversation it's not going to come to and end just like i personally believe the war between the arabs and jews will never end.
just my 2 cents :D
It's important to stand up for the truth and that which is right, regardless of the outcome.
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>.<
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I believe Goliath was a Palestinian king back in "bible" times was he not? and then the cruel Israelite king David slaughtered him mercilessly.
Edit: Just trollin. I know Goliath was really the first true king of Israel.
Edit2: Just so I can contribute. Have a serious business link
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to be honest i find a discussion on this topic pointless because no matter what the other side says it's not going to change your original opinion, obviously jews are gonna believe that this is their land and palestine doesn't exist likewise arabs are gonna believe that this is their land and the jews stole it, so what exactly is the point to this whole conversation it's not going to come to and end just like i personally believe the war between the arabs and jews will never end.
just my 2 cents :D
It's important to stand up for the truth and that which is right, regardless of the outcome.
well if anyone asked me i would express my personal opinions and beliefs but why should i waste my time trying to change people who will never change?
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19 year old killed in flotilla raid definitely seems like a terrorist if you ask me. 19 years old? Fresh out of high school? definitely a terrorist.that was meant to be sarcasm in case you didn't realise it
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19 year old killed in flotilla raid definitely seems like a terrorist if you ask me. 19 years old? Fresh out of high school? definitely a terrorist.that was meant to be sarcasm in case you didn't realise it
Firstly, why on earth can't a 19 year old be a terrorist? I wasn't aware there was a minimum age limit, thanks so much for enlightening me! that was also sarcasm, douchebag
Secondly, I never said that all the people on the ship were terrorists. (Although some certainly were: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/137859). What I said was, the flotilla was linked to a terrorist organisation, which is undeniable as the organisers, the IHH, has been proven to have links to terror and terrorist organisations.
As the ship was engaging in military action by attempting to breach a naval blockade in spite of warnings, it took on the status of a combat vessel, and the people on board certainly engaged in deliberate and pre-meditated violence, and as such they became perfectly legitimate and legal targets.
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i think they just need a good conqueror to invade both areas and settle this shit without their opinions.
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19 year old killed in flotilla raid definitely seems like a terrorist if you ask me. 19 years old? Fresh out of high school? definitely a terrorist.that was meant to be sarcasm in case you didn't realise it
19 year old Israeli soldiers endangered their lives on the "peace flotilla" on the naive assumption that these people were just lefties, anarchists and other useful idiots.
Indeed, a few were seriously injured with gunshot wounds, heads wounds and stab wounds. If one of them had died, would you too be mourning the loss of such young IDF soldiers defending their homeland. I doubt it, because you seem to only see humanity on one side of the conflict.
This was their intent:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/i-want-to-be-a-shahid-flotilla-activist-hoped-for-martyrdom-1.293953?localLinksEnabled=false
Age does not mitigate the severity of the crime. A terrorist is a terrorist, and if a radical 19 year old Islamist wants to embark on a misguided mission to arm Hamas, then his ending befits his crime.
No sympathy here.
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But how do you know he was a terrorist?
And those people had every right to defend themselves from the attackers.
Also one man says he wants to become an extremist and that represents everyone on the boat? What kind of bullshit is that?
Did any of the soldiers actually die? Were any soldiers actually shot? Show me something that says that soldiers were injured or killed and maybe I'll have some sympathy for them. But they went on the boat and from the looks of it after meeting with some resistance just opened fire and randomly shot whoever they could point their gun at.
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SHZAM. Have another link
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But how do you know he was a terrorist?
And those people had every right to defend themselves from the attackers.
Also one man says he wants to become an extremist and that represents everyone on the boat? What kind of bullshit is that?
Did any of the soldiers actually die? Were any soldiers actually shot? Show me something that says that soldiers were injured or killed and maybe I'll have some sympathy for them. But they went on the boat and from the looks of it after meeting with some resistance just opened fire and randomly shot whoever they could point their gun at.
A video of the live fire from the "activists" on board - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFGuwUGaI9o
Here is an article from Jpost describing the ordeal, the intense lethal violence (including live fire) the Israeli sea men faced from the "humanitarians", and their links to Global Jihad- http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177445
Here is the Israeli PM mentioning that he visited the soldiers wounded from gunfire http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUG12kU8-jE&feature=popt00il07
More soldiers testimonies - http://www.youtube.com/user/idfnadesk#p/u/1/C9p5QT91QYs
The documented video evidence here is undeniable. You pro-Palestinian Hamas apologists come armed with slogans and hearsay. Israel comes armed with facts.
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BTW, re the second link is absurd. Surely you wouldn't steep as low to compare Holocaust survivors returning to their final place of refuge, their historical homeland - Israel in 1948 -
to radical Turkish Islamists and their bleeding heart anti-Western supporters, trying to initiate a confrontation with the Jewish state, for the sake of media coverage?
These are the people you are supporting by the way: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&feature=player_embedded
Antisemitic much?
It was hard to ignore the fact that those supposedly wishing to quickly provide aid to the "besieged" Gazans were delayed in Cyprus in order to grant media interviews. The members of these “concerned organizations” could have transferred their goods in numerous ways (some of them via the IDF, directly, via Egypt, via the Red Cross, like the 10000 tonnes of aid that reaches Gaza EVERY DAY) yet they preferred to harm Israel’s image. Who cares about food for the besieged when one can produce a solid provocation?
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What's not mentioned is that the same operation was carried out on 5 other ships.
Ship 1:
IDF rappels down, checks for weapons and other illegal crap, commandeers ship, goes back to shore, deports people from boats. Nobody dies.
Ship 2:
IDF rappels down, checks for weapons and other illegal crap, commandeers ship, goes back to shore, deports people from boats. Nobody dies.
Ship 3:
IDF rappels down, checks for weapons and other illegal crap, commandeers ship, goes back to shore, deports people from boats. Nobody dies.
Ship 4:
IDF rappels down, checks for weapons and other illegal crap, commandeers ship, goes back to shore, deports people from boats. Nobody dies.
Ship 5:
IDF rappels down, checks for weapons and other illegal crap, commandeers ship, goes back to shore, deports people from boats. Nobody dies.
Ship 6:
IDF rappels down, gets attacked by people wielding knives, guns and other crap and gets into a bloody firefight that ends in dead people.
Why only this ship that has the problem? Because all of the thugs and jihadists and real bloodthirsty anti-semites were on that boat. The other 5 boats were filled with the useful idiots. Don't think the Turkish gov't is, in any way, not guilty of this. It's shit like this that's stopping them from becoming members of the EU. When they deliberately do things like this to please their pals and keep the oil money flowing. This was a calculated attempt to make use of brainwashed, disaffected youths in order to achieve a political agenda. Utterly disgusting.
And Cthulhu, you are seriously misguided if you think 19 year olds cannot be terrorists. I feel your confidence in your position makes you seem most ignorant when that which you so decidedly argue is so easily disproven:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
"Since the beginning of violence in the Al-Aqsa Intifada in 2000, 29 suicide attacks have been carried out by youth under the age of 18.
Since May 2001, 22 shootings attacks and attacks using explosive devices were carried out by youth under the age of 18.
Since the beginning of 2001, more than 40 youths under the age of 18 were involved in attempted suicide bombings that were thwarted (of them, three during 2004)."
I guess in your lingo, SHZAM? But I derive no satisfaction from being correct on this issue. It's actually really, really upsetting. People need to stop fucking pointing the finger and start saying "Israel and Palestine have both done nasty shit to each other... let's try and stop this nasty shit from continuing"
A real positive way that could have happen is for the spasticated organisers of the flotilla to agree to have Israel deliver the aid. If they don't deliver it, guess what's an even bigger media shitstorm? But oh, right, I guess they can't count on that because Israel would have delivered it, along with the thousands of tonnes it sends into Gaza each day... Instead, it's them trying to play chicken in a desperate attempt for some good old fashioned hate-mongering media attention. Blargh.
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History Lesson:
What is the Jew's claim to the region know today as Israel, and where does Palestine fit into it?
Between 5300 and 3200 years ago, a large portion of the middle east was called Canaan. It was a region encompassing modern-day Israel, Lebanon, the Palestinian Territories, plus adjoining costal lands and parts of Jordan, Syria and northeastern Egypt.
Around the time 1400 BC Jews began arriving in Canaan. Famine in the Land of Canaan forced inhabitants to find food. Josef, the son of Jacob, had been sold by his brothers and ended up in Egypt, where, through a series of spectacular events, he becoming second in command to Pharoah. When his brothers came from Canaan for food, Joseph instructed them to bring their father and settle in Egypt. Jacob and his family moved to Egypt and their help was soon requested in building two cities for Pharoah, Pitom and Ramsees. Initially, they were paid for their services, but with the death of all of the 12 sons of Jacob the employment relationship slowly shifted into one of servitude. While the actual implementation of the slavery may have been gradual, the biblical record indicates that a new Pharaoh came to the throne who 'knew not Joseph' (or didn't want to know) and so enslaved the Israelites. After the Israelites escaped the slavery in Egypt they wandered the desert for 40 years. At the conclusion of this time, the Israelites (as described in the Bible) possessed Canaan by conquering the cities one by one. Two regions, Israel and Judah emerged from this victory. The Israelites remained in control of the northern region Israel until it was conquered by Assyria around the 8th century BC. The southern kingdom, Judah, fell to the Babylonians in the year 586 BCE, when the first Jewish Temple was destroyed. In 520 BCE Cyrus the Great allowed Jews to return to Judah and rebuild the Temple. The second temple was completed in 515 BCE. In 64 BCE, Jerusalem was conquered by the Roman general Pompey and the Jewish kingdom was made a client of Rome. In 70 AD the Second Temple was destroyed. In 73 AD the Roman Empire conquered Masada and ended the first Jewish-Roman War. In 132 AD, Emperor Hadrian changed the name of the province Judah to Syria Palaestina in order to break ties to the Jewish people. This is where the name Palestine originates.
The Jew's claim to Israel is what is called Zionism. Many people view it as a straight forward belief in the state of Israel as a Jewish homeland as delivered into their hands by God. It is anything but straight forward, and is defined differently for many Jews and non-Jews alike. It is NOT every Jew's opinion that Israel is the only homeland for the Jewish people and must be protected through whatever means necessary. Even in Melbourne today, there are Jewish communities (Skiff is one of them) that do not believe in Zionism but instead draw their national backgrounds from European Jewry.
The term "Palestinian People" was invented post 1948 when the Jewish people declared independence over Israel. It is a term used to describe the Arab population that lived in Israel. Yes, it is true that Israel used to be known as Palestine, but the label “Palestinian people” did not exist, just like there was no label for people that lived in Jordan or Syria or Egypt, or any of the other Islam governed countries in the Middle East.
If I haven't already made it clear, then here it is. It is not as black and white as
jews are gonna believe that this is their land and palestine doesn't exist likewise arabs are gonna believe that this is their land and the jews stole it
Not to belittle you, but that statement comes across as ignorant and insulting.
Just as there are diverse groups in all countries and religions, there are as well in Judaism, Islam, Israel and Palestine. There are a large portion of Jews that want to give land to the "Palestinian people", and likewise there are Palestinians that are happy with what they have and simply want the fighting and brutality to end.
Unfortunately a small group of Islamic extremists otherwise known as the terrorist organization Hamas do not believe in a peaceful ending to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They have seized control of the free region Gaza (which was handed back to the Palestinian people in 2005 in the hopes that they would take control of their own land and straighten their situation out) and use it to launch missiles at Israel on a daily basis. I personally can testify to this, as I have spent time in areas close to the border between Gaza and Israel and have had to take shelter in bomb shelters. The terrorist organization Hamas maximize on the media. No matter the event, and how insignificant it is, it will be sure to come up in the news as headlines in the effort to give Israel a bad name. Despite all this, Hamas give a bad name to the vastly large population of Muslim people that live in Gaza, of which want peace and nothing else.
Just as the Palestinian people get a bad name due to Hamas, Israel gets a bad name due to the small events that are taken out of context and blown up in the media. No, I am not saying that everything Israel does is 100% correct. Israel make their own mistakes just like every other country in the world. But Israel do pay far more for it through bad publicity in the media.
A perfect example is the recent Flotilla incident. I encourage you to do your own research on the situation, but a good site to start is http://flotillafacts.com/
Israel knew that there were six ships sailing to Gaza with the intent of delivering humanitarian aid. Because of the terrorist organization Hamas, Israel cannot allow unchecked aid into Gaza for fear of weapons and materials entering that can put the lives of both Israelis and Palestinians in danger. Before the six ships were anywhere near the blockade, they were contacted and Israel gave the ships the opportunity to dock in the civilian port of Ashdod (a city just north of Gaza) where under the supervision of the aid workers the supplies would be checked and then delivered to Gaza. Five of the six ships agreed to dock in Ashdod. One of the ships refused and expressed intent to break through the blockade on Gaza. The remaining ship was warned that Israeli officials would board the ship. The IDF (Israeli Defence Force) was deployed to peacefully board the remaining flotilla and direct it to Ashdod. The soldiers went armed with paintball guns, and only had pistols with them in case of violence. As the IDF soldiers dropped down onto the deck, they were immediately met with intense brutality from some of the passengers. There are videos showing large groups of passengers closing in on single Israeli soldiers and brutalizing them with metal rods. This was done without provocation . There are videos showing passengers throwing Israeli soldiers overboard. No, not every passenger was fighting. In fact a large number stayed within the ship as they did not want to take part in the fighting and were true to their word when they called themselves "Peaceful aid workers". Suffice to say, the passengers that took part in any and all brutality were clearly not "Peaceful aid workers" and meant harm towards the IDF soldiers regardless of the honest peaceful-intent of the soldiers themselves.
Yes, it is a tragedy that nine people died.
Yes, Israel could have handled the situation differently, and with the potential for no loss of life.
And yes, Israel had every right to board the flotilla and use whatever means necessary to secure it.
Here are a few points of Law to give you some background (it’s all taken from “The Commander’s Handbook on the Law Of Naval Operations” (US Department of Defense, 1 Jul 2007).
BLOCKADES ARE LEGAL
“The belligerent right of blockade is intended to prevent vessels and aircraft, regardless of their cargo, from crossing an established and publicized cordon separating the enemy from international waters and/or airspace.” (Section 7.7.1.)
ISRAEL CAN ENFORCE THE BLOCKADE IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS
“Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade, and for vessels exiting the blockaded area, continues until the voyage is completed.” (Section 7.7.4.)
IT DOESN’T MATTER THAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE “HUMANITARIAN AID”
“Neutral vessels and aircraft engaged in the carriage of qualifying relief supplies for the civilian population and the sick and wounded should be authorized to pass through the blockade cordon, subject to the right of the blockading force to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which passage is permitted.” (Section 7.7.3.)
ISRAEL HAS EVERY RIGHT TO BOARD AND EVEN CAPTURE THE BLOCKADE RUNNERS
“Neutral merchant vessels and civil aircraft are liable to capture by belligerent warships and military aircraft if engaged in any of the following activities:
- Resisting visit and search
- Carrying contraband
- Breaching or attempting to breach blockade
- Violating regulations established by a belligerent within the immediate area of naval operations…
Neutral vessels or aircraft attempting to resist proper capture lay themselves open to forcible measures by belligerent warships and military aircraft and assume all risk of resulting damage.” (Section 7.10)
You can now clearly see that although Israel was legally allowed to board the flotilla, and although every event that transpired leading up to the flotilla tragedy was done by the book, Israel still managed to get the large majority of bad press due to incorrect media coverage.
In summary, the main message that I am trying to convey is that this recent event, and every other event in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is never black and white. Large sweeping generalizing statements do no good for logical progressive discussion. I hope that next time the posters in this forum will do a little bit of research before making rash comments.
Criticize away...
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Looking back at what I have posted, I do realize that I haven't provided enough of a basis for the legitimacy of a state for the Palestinian people. I do apologize for that. I would contribute more, but I feel that I don't know enough about it to provide an accurate and factual representation of the events that transpired in the 20th century in relation to this conflict.
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a little history of Hamas
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamashistory.htm
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whats with everyone and being so worked up about being anti-isreal or anti-simetic(unless this term means something that is derogatory)?? like gee everyone hates certain countries get over it just cause they hate ur country doesnt make them anti-holocoust or whatever fuck im sure i know people who hate iraq i dont call them anti-iraq-war or whatever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GET OVER IT !!!!!!!! AND PALESTINE are like this, they start trouble when theyre full and they scream for help when theyre hungry!
P.S I can HATE any country i like without needing people saying your anti this or that just stfu
LOL
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Chavi, Why do you assume that I am pro-Palestinian and that I just dislike the way Israel handles the situation? and IDF soldiers were injured fair enough I saw the footage shortly after posting that post. (The IDF has never heard of tear gas?) Although to be honest that video didn't really show me anything just an Israeli soldier shouting about "real" weapons which didn't really convince me.
Enwiabe, I meant to imply that it seemed unlikely that that particular 19 year old was a terrorist not that every 19 year old couldn't be a terrorist.
trinon, Good argument it's probably the best one in this thread. I have nothing to criticise. Except maybe your "The blockade is legal" argument. The legality of the blockade has been questioned: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html but take from that what you will.
Anyway I've obviously lost this argument and I'm man enough to admit that.
I would like to add that I'm not pro-Palestine nor am I anti-Israel. I'm anti-Middle East. The place just bugs me. They all claim to be loving religious people but they'll go bat shit crazy if you draw their prophet. In fact I sort of sympathies with Israel because they're right in the middle of this place surrounded by people who want them wiped off the face of the earth. I can understand that Israel is trying to protect itself from terrorists but I think they're going about it the wrong way and they're disadvantaging the innocent people in Gaza who just want to mind their own business and go about their lives in peace.
Everyone is taking a book written over 1000 years ago too seriously.
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I can understand that Israel is trying to protect itself from terrorists but I think they're going about it the wrong way and they're disadvantaging the innocent people in Gaza who just want to mind their own business and go about their lives in peace.
Everyone is taking a book written over 1000 years ago too seriously.
the cycle just goes on...
everytime israel kills a palestinian ... hamas gains more support ... more people join
everytime a palestinian kills an israeli... the israelis pose more sanctions, never budge from their position, and bomb or target palestinians
so the cycle continues... and it doesn't help anyone
and unless something changes nothing will happen... and it doesn't help that america gives over 3 billion dollars to Israel either... it would be better if they sorted it out themselves
watch that video i posted on page 1 called Death in Gaza and
Paradise Now is another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gkvj30aNiE
and Encounter Point is very good but theres no video on youtube but they have a 7 minute trailer and videos on the left hand side of the page
http://www.justvision.org/en/encounterpoint/watch
this child got it spot on 0:34-0:44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySJaH7OXzOA
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Chavi, Why do you assume that I am pro-Palestinian and that I just dislike the way Israel handles the situation? and IDF soldiers were injured fair enough I saw the footage shortly after posting that post. (The IDF has never heard of tear gas?) Although to be honest that video didn't really show me anything just an Israeli soldier shouting about "real" weapons which didn't really convince me.
Enwiabe, I meant to imply that it seemed unlikely that that particular 19 year old was a terrorist not that every 19 year old couldn't be a terrorist.
trinon, Good argument it's probably the best one in this thread. I have nothing to criticise. Except maybe your "The blockade is legal" argument. The legality of the blockade has been questioned: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html but take from that what you will.
Anyway I've obviously lost this argument and I'm man enough to admit that.
I would like to add that I'm not pro-Palestine nor am I anti-Israel. I'm anti-Middle East. The place just bugs me. They all claim to be loving religious people but they'll go bat shit crazy if you draw their prophet. In fact I sort of sympathies with Israel because they're right in the middle of this place surrounded by people who want them wiped off the face of the earth. I can understand that Israel is trying to protect itself from terrorists but I think they're going about it the wrong way and they're disadvantaging the innocent people in Gaza who just want to mind their own business and go about their lives in peace.
Everyone is taking a book written over 1000 years ago too seriously.
The question of tear gas and other disabling weapons have been raised. Frankly, if tear gas or some other disabling weapon was used, then more than likely there would have been no deaths. On the other hand, if Israel had of boarded the flotilla with the intent of disabling the passengers through force, then Israel would definitely be in the wrong. Israel went in with the intention to take control of the boat without harm, as peacefully as possible. In hindsight, maybe Israel should have used a disabling weapon. But in hindsight, had Israel of used a disabling weapon, they would be in a far worse situation because although there would be fewer or even no casualties, the passengers on board would no doubt have argued that they were peaceful and meant no harm towards the IDF, which we now know to be a false statement. When you get down to it, it was the passengers choices to take up arms against the IDF soldiers, and that resulted in their own deaths.
As for Israel going about it the wrong way: All I can do or say is I recommend you to do some serious research into the factual historic data over the passed 120 years, from the first Zionist Congress up to today. I have faith that you will find that Israel has bent over backwards for the Palestinian people only to receive hatred and brutality back.
I'm interested to know how Israel is disadvantaging the innocent people of Gaza, knowing that Gaza is not an occupied region, but instead an independent state who's government denies the legitimacy of Israel as a state and has sworn death to every single Jewish person within the world. If you ask me, it's Gaza that is disadvantaging the innocent people of Gaza, and Israel is their scapegoat.
Which book are you referring to? The Torah? The Quran? Neither say that you should take up arms against the opposing religion. It's the extremist fundamentalists that interpret their respective bibles in unique and widely discredited ways. On top of that, both the Torah and the Quran have some pretty amazing ideals and wonderful ways to live your life in a honest, positive way.
As for the drawing of the Islamic prophet, I completely understand where they are coming from. It is one of the biggest sins within Islam to depict Mohamed in any way, shape or form. It's like someone comes into your house, drags you outside, burns down your house, all the while as they urinate all over you. I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off. Don't forget, we're only humans, and although the respective bibles preach absolute peace, it's extremely hard to resist the urge to defend ones complete belief system when it comes under scrutiny
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"Israel and Palestine have both done nasty shit to each other... let's try and stop this nasty shit from continuing"
This.
If it will shut them up, we should just give one Alice Springs...
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essay
mini-essay
summary for the time-challenged: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html
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Chavi, Why do you assume that I am pro-Palestinian and that I just dislike the way Israel handles the situation? and IDF soldiers were injured fair enough I saw the footage shortly after posting that post. (The IDF has never heard of tear gas?) Although to be honest that video didn't really show me anything just an Israeli soldier shouting about "real" weapons which didn't really convince me.
Enwiabe, I meant to imply that it seemed unlikely that that particular 19 year old was a terrorist not that every 19 year old couldn't be a terrorist.
trinon, Good argument it's probably the best one in this thread. I have nothing to criticise. Except maybe your "The blockade is legal" argument. The legality of the blockade has been questioned: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,539363,00.html but take from that what you will.
Anyway I've obviously lost this argument and I'm man enough to admit that.
I would like to add that I'm not pro-Palestine nor am I anti-Israel. I'm anti-Middle East. The place just bugs me. They all claim to be loving religious people but they'll go bat shit crazy if you draw their prophet. In fact I sort of sympathies with Israel because they're right in the middle of this place surrounded by people who want them wiped off the face of the earth. I can understand that Israel is trying to protect itself from terrorists but I think they're going about it the wrong way and they're disadvantaging the innocent people in Gaza who just want to mind their own business and go about their lives in peace.
Everyone is taking a book written over 1000 years ago too seriously.
The question of tear gas and other disabling weapons have been raised. Frankly, if tear gas or some other disabling weapon was used, then more than likely there would have been no deaths. On the other hand, if Israel had of boarded the flotilla with the intent of disabling the passengers through force, then Israel would definitely be in the wrong. Israel went in with the intention to take control of the boat without harm, as peacefully as possible. In hindsight, maybe Israel should have used a disabling weapon. But in hindsight, had Israel of used a disabling weapon, they would be in a far worse situation because although there would be fewer or even no casualties, the passengers on board would no doubt have argued that they were peaceful and meant no harm towards the IDF, which we now know to be a false statement. When you get down to it, it was the passengers choices to take up arms against the IDF soldiers, and that resulted in their own deaths.
Surely if the boat had failed to stop at the dock like the other 5 had then it obviously had sinister intentions and the IDF would have boarded the boat with intent to disable it thus having the need for disabling weapons? and why weren't they used shortly after the attacks began then?
As for Israel going about it the wrong way: All I can do or say is I recommend you to do some serious research into the factual historic data over the passed 120 years, from the first Zionist Congress up to today. I have faith that you will find that Israel has bent over backwards for the Palestinian people only to receive hatred and brutality back.
Yes I do need to do more research on this.
Which book are you referring to? The Torah? The Quran? Neither say that you should take up arms against the opposing religion. It's the extremist fundamentalists that interpret their respective bibles in unique and widely discredited ways. On top of that, both the Torah and the Quran have some pretty amazing ideals and wonderful ways to live your life in a honest, positive way.
This is what I meant. The extremists and anti-other-religion persons not everyone.
As for the drawing of the Islamic prophet, I completely understand where they are coming from. It is one of the biggest sins within Islam to depict Mohamed in any way, shape or form. It's like someone comes into your house, drags you outside, burns down your house, all the while as they urinate all over you. I imagine you'd be pretty pissed off. Don't forget, we're only humans, and although the respective bibles preach absolute peace, it's extremely hard to resist the urge to defend ones complete belief system when it comes under scrutiny
I give you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Visual_depictions
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Surely if the boat had failed to stop at the dock like the other 5 had then it obviously had sinister intentions and the IDF would have boarded the boat with intent to disable it thus having the need for disabling weapons?
Yeah, I agree, but unfortunately the rest of the world doesn't. Problem is that when a delicate situation such as this happens, most people accuse first and ask questions later.
and why weren't they used shortly after the attacks began then?
Like I said, it could have been done better.
I give you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depictions_of_Muhammad#Visual_depictions
Yeah, don't ask me. I don't claim to believe Islam :P
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This music video sums up the situation perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
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what a crap video
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LOL
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This music video sums up the situation perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
I have to agree with TrueLight. It is pretty awful. I had to laugh when I saw the ship captain though.
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This music video sums up the situation perfectly:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
I have to agree with TrueLight. It is pretty awful. I had to laugh when I saw the ship captain though.
It is a silly video, but it's very true.
Something I found amazing, and I'm surprised no one else picked up on, is in the clips of the 'activists' returning to Turkey, they're flashing victory signs, and celebrating in general. Now why would they be celebrating, if on the face of it their mission was such a failure? After all, 9 of their colleagues were killed, and the aid has still not been delivered. Yet they're still celebrating a victory. Why is that?
The obvious answer, is that they did have a victory, because their mission was never to get aid to Gaza. Their mission was to spark a fight with the IDF, hopefully suffer casualties, make martyrs of themselves (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/02/flotilla-raid-turkish-jihadis-troops-israel-claims) get TV footage out of more Israeli 'atrocities' and in general paint Israel in the worst light possible. In that, they certainly had a victory.
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'Gaza stand-off over' declares Netanyahu as Rachel Corrie crew co-operate
ISRAELI Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hailed the peaceful ending to a stand-off between the navy and Gaza-bound foreign aid ship the Rachel Corrie, which concluded without violence.
"We saw today the difference between a ship of peace activists, with whom we don't agree but respect their right to a different opinion from ours, and between a ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists," the premier's office cited him as saying.
A spokeswoman for the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) confirmed the Navy boarded the boat and took control without meeting "any resistance" from the crew or the passengers.
"Everything took place without violence," she added.
Seems somebody's taken the VCE course in emotive language
But the takeover prompted a furious response from the Dublin-based Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign.
"For the second time in less than a week, Israeli forces stormed and hijacked an unarmed aid ship, kidnapping its passengers and forcing the ship toward Ashdod port," it said.
The Irish government, which had urged Israel to allow the ship to reach Gaza, was kept informed of developments as the situation unfolded
In a statement, the Israeli Defence Forces defended their actions under international law.
"The rules of warfare allow the capturing of naval vessels prior to their actual violation of a naval blockade," it said.
"This is dependent on the vessels being on their way to a blockaded area, being outside the territorial waters of neutral states and when there is a substantial likelihood (based on credible evidence) that the vessels intend to violate the blockade.
"Declarations by the flotilla’s organisers and their reactions to the messages that were transmitted to them during their approach clearly show that they had intended to break the naval blockade, thus allowing for the steps taken by IDF forces."
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In response to all those who say that the flotilla was motivated simply by antizionism:
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=177566
and the audio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ
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http://vimeo.com/12429821
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IHH scumbags got what they deserved.