ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Other General Discussion => Topic started by: Chavi on October 13, 2010, 08:45:11 pm
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Free laptops and terrorism? Are you aware of who funds HAI or what kinds of activities this NGo supports?
According to the website: (http://www.humanappeal.org.au/) Human Appeal International Australia is a non-governmental humanitarian organisation seeking funds from supporters to assist in providing services to thousands of poor and needy people through programs in Food relief and development projects in Health and Education.
BUT it's accountability and terror bankrolling activities are brought into questions with these:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2003/s951368.htm
The document, obtained by Lateline, outlines a close relationship between Human Appeal International and Hamas, as well as the US-based Palestinian charity the Holy Land Foundation For Relief and Development, which was raided and shut down three months after the September 11 attacks.
The FBI's findings echo a recently released 1996 CIA document, which alleges Human Appeal International "probably acts as a fundraiser for Hamas".
When you look at the documents from the FBI and if material that they have put together which indicates that Human Appeal International have, in the past, certainly been proselytising for funds to assist with not just humanitarian causes but the intifada and, indeed, in fighting against the Israelis, then you have some serious concerns that need to be answered..
Serious questions hang over its alleged relationship with Hamas and its accountability to donors.
At stake is not just concerns over money going to terrorists, but whether those genuinely in need receive all the money intended for them.
http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article.php?id=767
The arrest of convicted Hamas activist and alleged fundraiser Ahmad Saltana (a.k.a. Abu Asama) has focused attention on several organizations in Europe that allegedly pose as charities in order to bankroll terrorist activities. The organizations reportedly implicated in this illegal activity include the UK-based charities Human Appeal International and Interpal.
Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
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lol that's kinda unfair...if you're a high achiever of any other religion you get nothing but 4 digits and a decimal point :P
but it is a good way to encourage students to achieve :)
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
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lol that's kinda unfair...if you're a high achiever of any other religion you get nothing but 4 digits and a decimal point :P
indeed...
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
MATE, before you go on to speak blatently about HAI being in support of Hamas, get your facts right, coz clearly they're not :)
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
Would you answer that out of ignorance or sheer malice? For our sake, I'm hoping it's the former - and you simply don't understand what Hamas is and what it represents. On the other hand, maybe you've read their charter, and you post with premeditation - another worrying sign of radicalization amongst Muslim youth in Australia.
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
MATE, before you go on to speak blatently about HAI being in support of Hamas, get your facts right, coz clearly they're not :)
yeh what he said...
btw chavi... clearly ur just jealous
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
MATE, before you go on to speak blatently about HAI being in support of Hamas, get your facts right, coz clearly they're not :)
yeh what he said...
btw chavi... clearly ur just jealous
that must be it
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What if I just claim im a muslim?
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
Would you answer that out of ignorance or sheer malice? For our sake, I'm hoping it's the former - and you simply don't understand what Hamas is and what it represents. On the other hand, maybe you've read their charter, and you post with premeditation - another worrying sign of radicalization amongst Muslim youth in Australia.
really dude, you've got to stop, your previous comment wasn't funny in the least, it was some what racist and derogatory! -.-
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
MATE, before you go on to speak blatently about HAI being in support of Hamas, get your facts right, coz clearly they're not :)
Why clearly? The evidence is blatantly available.
CIA report on HAI terror connections: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/CIA_Report_on_NGOs_With_Terror_Links#HUMAN_APPEAL_INTERNATIONAL_.28HAI.29
NGO profile:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=human_appeal_international_1
And countless, countless more. ..
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
Would you answer that out of ignorance or sheer malice? For our sake, I'm hoping it's the former - and you simply don't understand what Hamas is and what it represents. On the other hand, maybe you've read their charter, and you post with premeditation - another worrying sign of radicalization amongst Muslim youth in Australia.
Oh please, deem whatever you want.
This is just going to open another can of worms and bring a lot of misunderstanding which is not needed now.
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
MATE, before you go on to speak blatently about HAI being in support of Hamas, get your facts right, coz clearly they're not :)
Why clearly? The evidence is blatantly available.
CIA report on HAI terror connections: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/CIA_Report_on_NGOs_With_Terror_Links#HUMAN_APPEAL_INTERNATIONAL_.28HAI.29
NGO profile:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=human_appeal_international_1
And countless, countless more. ..
* Sigh* congratulations, I applaud you on such good research skills.... did that make you somwhat happy? :P
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What if I just claim im a muslim?
Then you get a laptop :P
that must be it
Why clearly?
+1
I'm with Chavi lol, accepting a laptop from such an organisation is just wrong.
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Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
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Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
I agree, with this comment,
Many people unwittingly purchase things that are apparent as a result of slaves, terrorism and other things.
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Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
+1 :D
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Many people unwittingly purchase things that are apparent as a result of slaves, terrorism and other things.
I guess the key word is "unwittingly".
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Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
Really? Why didn't you say something earlier? That makes it all better then.
Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
I agree, with this comment,
Many people unwittingly purchase things that are apparent as a result of slaves, terrorism and other things.
Ah yes, unwittingly - but we know about this one. Would an organisation that would fund terrorism be giving away free laptops without some sort of ulterior motive? lol.
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Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
+1 :D
+++2
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Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
Really? Why didn't you say something earlier? That makes it all better then.
Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
I agree, with this comment,
Many people unwittingly purchase things that are apparent as a result of slaves, terrorism and other things.
Ah yes, unwittingly - but we know about this one. Would an organisation that would fund terrorism be giving away free laptops without some sort of ulterior motive? lol.
motives- to represent and be proud of students who excel in thier studies? is that too hard to show? -.-'
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Ah yes, unwittingly - but we know about this one. Would an organisation that would fund terrorism be giving away free laptops without some sort of ulterior motive? lol.
You make me laugh.
i needed that.
motives- to represent and be proud of students who excel in thier studies? is that too hard to show? -.-
I agree-i just can't understand why people love to turn things around when their initial intentions are good. I bet most people here hasn't seen what HAI do for people in real life, rather than just believing what the media feeds them with.
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Ah yes, unwittingly - but we know about this one. Would an organisation that would fund terrorism be giving away free laptops without some sort of ulterior motive? lol.
You make me laugh.
i needed that.
Silly me, I didn't realise you can fund killing and be a philanthropist.
Can't belive this, the allure of free stuff has people defending those who fund terrorism LOL.
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really dude, you've got to stop, your previous comment wasn't funny in the least, it was some what racist and derogatory! -.-
How so? Enlighten me.
Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
I agree, with this comment,
Many people unwittingly purchase things that are apparent as a result of slaves, terrorism and other things.
If you were to unwittingly purchase a shirt that has been created by slave labour, does this mean that you condone slave labour? no. It is an ignorant mistake.
However if you were to support or receive money from an organization with blood on it's hands that finances global terrorism - and isn't ashamed to hide the fact - are you guilty of supporting terrorism? yes.
Not only that, this shocking post explicitly demonstrates support for Hamas. No need to even hide behind the blanket of 'milk-n'-cookies humanitarian aid. You may as well be open and forthright with us where your priorities lie.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
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dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
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Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
Would you answer that out of ignorance or sheer malice? For our sake, I'm hoping it's the former - and you simply don't understand what Hamas is and what it represents. On the other hand, maybe you've read their charter, and you post with premeditation - another worrying sign of radicalization amongst Muslim youth in Australia.
Oh please, deem whatever you want.
This is just going to open another can of worms and bring a lot of misunderstanding which is not needed now.
What' so hard to understand? Anyone who subscribes to this program is receiving assistance from an organization that supports terrorism.
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dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
I remember when we used to bandy around the 'jealousy' argument in Grade 5 when we ran out of justifications for our actions. Grow up and address the accusations - rather than resorting to ad-hominem attacks.
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really dude, you've got to stop, your previous comment wasn't funny in the least, it was some what racist and derogatory! -.-
How so? Enlighten me.
Millions if not billions of people use products that have been made by slaves/slave-labor everyday. How is this any different?
I agree, with this comment,
Many people unwittingly purchase things that are apparent as a result of slaves, terrorism and other things.
If you were to unwittingly purchase a shirt that has been created by slave labour, does this mean that you condone slave labour? no. It is an ignorant mistake.
However if you were to support or receive money from an organization with blood on it's hands that finances global terrorism - and isn't ashamed to hide the fact - are you guilty of supporting terrorism? yes.
Not only that, this shocking post explicitly demonstrates support for Hamas. No need to even hide behind the balnket of 'milk-n'-cookies humanitarian aid. You may as well be open and forthright with us where your priorities lie.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
That is the worst rebuttal I've seen all day... mate get a grip, what are you scared? instead of being the delusional little bitch you are * wake up* LOL mutual feeling :)
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dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
Proof? Any evidence supporting this?
Noone's jealous, we're happy to pay a couple of thousand to a clean organisation such as JB Hi-Fi for a laptop :)
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I agree with Chavi on this,
@samiira
are you twelve?
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dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
I remember when we used to bandy around the 'jealousy' argument in Grade 5 when we ran out of justifications for our actions. Grow up and address the accusations - rather than resorting to ad-hominem attacks.
r u by any chance a jew.. coz den everything will make sense
..you are fucking retarded.
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That is the worst rebuttal I've seen all day... mate get a grip, what are you scared? instead of being the delusional little bitch you are * wake up* LOL mutual feeling :)
No, this is:
dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
I agree with Chavi on this,
@samiira
are you twelve?
+1
..you are fucking retarded.
+500
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dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
I remember when we used to bandy around the 'jealousy' argument in Grade 5 when we ran out of justifications for our actions. Grow up and address the accusations - rather than resorting to ad-hominem attacks.
r u by any chance a jew.. coz den everything will make sense
..you are fucking retarded.
yeh y is dat.. u can go on makin crap about muslim.. and wen i ask dat question den i bcum a retart..?? man its pointless arguin wiv racist ppl like u
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Chavi...... this post isn't to stir shit up yeah?
and secondly this post had nothing to do with you whatsoever, so I don't see how you can barge in with your flawed arguments and attempt to look like a hero! -.-'
Nevertheless, don't you reckon HAI has done more good then of 'bad' as you claim?
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and secondly this post had nothing to do with you whatsoever, so I don't see how you can barge in with your flawed arguments and attempt to look like a hero! -.-'
exactly!
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dude ur soo sad.. i understand ur jealous.. but this false accusarion is wrong
I remember when we used to bandy around the 'jealousy' argument in Grade 5 when we ran out of justifications for our actions. Grow up and address the accusations - rather than resorting to ad-hominem attacks.
r u by any chance a jew.. coz den everything will make sense
..you are fucking retarded.
yeh y is dat.. u can go on makin crap about muslim.. and wen i ask dat question den i bcum a retart..?? man its pointless arguin wiv racist ppl like u
okay I'm not going to even try read that.
p.s my closest friends are muslim. I have nothing against muslims. I have nothing against jews, I have jewish friends. please kill yourself.
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heres something for you to reflect on :)
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yeh y is dat.. u can go on makin crap about muslim.. and wen i ask dat question den i bcum a retart..?? man its pointless arguin wiv racist ppl like u
We are not making anything up? We actually have something to back us up.
Racist? That would be YOU with your jew comment.
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and secondly this post had nothing to do with you whatsoever, so I don't see how you can barge in with your flawed arguments and attempt to look like a hero! -.-'
exactly!
Well, if they are flawed please explain.
And please, you don't have to be Jewish to acknowledge and oppose terrorist organisations such as hamas.
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yeh y is dat.. u can go on makin crap about muslim.. and wen i ask dat question den i bcum a retart..?? man its pointless arguin wiv racist ppl like u
We are not making anything up? We actually have something to back us up.
Racist? That would be YOU with your jew comment.
obviously by his/her logic, if we don't support a terrorist organisation we're rascist, however his/her jew comment was totaly fine
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before this discussion goes overboard.. i suggest we end it here.. seriously.
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EVERYONE JUST CALM DOWN.......
Things are getting out of hand.... I do not approve of racism in any form or manner and I believe no one here does either!
rather than throwing racial vilifications at each other, It'd be best if everyone just kept quite, and for those like Bomb, Chavi and their supporters, you say HIA is a terrorsit organisation right? well let it be, and move on... something your gonna have to do in life! :)
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Why do people keep referring to race when talking about Islam and Judaism, aren't they religions?
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EVERYONE JUST CALM DOWN.......
Things are getting out of hand.... I do not approve of racism in any form or manner and I believe no one here does either!
rather than throwing racial vilifications at each other, It'd be best if everyone just kept quite, and for those like Bomb, Chavi and their supporters, you say HIA is a terrorsit organisation right? well let it be, and move on... something your gonna have to do in life! :)
Please tell me I read that wrong.
Why do people keep referring to race when talking about Islam and Judaism, aren't they religions?
Haha good point, well technically you're right but most people speak of Jews and Muslims as races, so meh.
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ahhh.. religious vilification?
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Guys, perhaps we should step back and reflect on what has occurred here. Some evidence has been displayed that proves that HAI is supporting terror. Rather than refuting/responding to these allegations, some members who use this site have demonstrated their tacit approval for HAMAS and terrorism placing them squarely out of line with the values that Australia supports and stands for (and indeed any democracy that values human rights and freedom from oppression).
Here are some of the vile, hypocritical attacks by these members:
That is the worst rebuttal I've seen all day... mate get a grip, what are you scared? instead of being the delusional little bitch you are * wake up* LOL mutual feeling :)
btw, the mutual feeling is not reciprocated, as I have nothing against you - unless you support HAI or similar organizations that support terrorism.
as well as these posts which speak for themselves
r u by any chance a jew.. coz den everything will make sense
yeh y is dat.. u can go on makin crap about muslim.. and wen i ask dat question den i bcum a retart..?? man its pointless arguin wiv racist ppl like u
Will the VN community tolerate this?
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Guys, perhaps we should step back and reflect on what has occurred here. Some evidence has been displayed that proves that HAI is supporting terror. Rather than refuting/responding to these allegations, some members who use this site have demonstrated their tacit approval for HAMAS and terrorism placing them squarely out of line with the values that Australia supports and stands for (and indeed any democracy that values human rights and freedom from oppression).
Here are some of the vile, hypocritical attacks by these members:
That is the worst rebuttal I've seen all day... mate get a grip, what are you scared? instead of being the delusional little bitch you are * wake up* LOL mutual feeling :)
btw, the mutual feeling is not reciprocated, as I have nothing against you - unless you support HAI or similar organizations that support terrorism.
as well as these posts which speak for themselves
r u by any chance a jew.. coz den everything will make sense
yeh y is dat.. u can go on makin crap about muslim.. and wen i ask dat question den i bcum a retart..?? man its pointless arguin wiv racist ppl like u
Will the VN community tolerate this?
mate, get over yourself, who do you think ou are? will the VN community tolerate this? HAHAHA you're quite the joker....
seriously enough. If you think you've proved your point good on ya!
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EVERYONE JUST CALM DOWN.......
Things are getting out of hand.... I do not approve of racism in any form or manner and I believe no one here does either!
rather than throwing racial vilifications at each other, It'd be best if everyone just kept quite, and for those like Bomb, Chavi and their supporters, you say HIA is a terrorsit organisation right? well let it be, and move on... something your gonna have to do in life! :)
Please tell me I read that wrong.
I'm scared too.
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honestly. there was no racism in this thread up until samiira's idiot logic.
people gave there opinion on an organisation, nobod based this on a race.
i don't see anything wrong with what chavi stated.
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Am I the only one who's realised there hasn't actually been a real counterargument to the whole Hamas thing - just denials and personal attacks?
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honestly. there was no racism in this thread up until samiira's idiot logic.
people gave there opinion on an organisation, nobod based this on a race.
i don't see anything wrong with what chavi stated.
I didn't make any racist comments I don't approve of racism... oh and I'm sorry whoever it was I called a delusional little bitch! I didn't mean to
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everyone please just let this go for the sake of it... this is a community about aid and supporting one another, not hurting one another!
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honestly. there was no racism in this thread up until samiira's idiot logic.
people gave there opinion on an organisation, nobod based this on a race.
i don't see anything wrong with what chavi stated.
I didn't make any racist comments I don't approve of racism... oh and I'm sorry whoever it was I called a delusional little bitch! I didn't mean to
you call him delusional while you're doing exactly the same thing
(Y)
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honestly. there was no racism in this thread up until samiira's idiot logic.
people gave there opinion on an organisation, nobod based this on a race.
i don't see anything wrong with what chavi stated.
I didn't make any racist comments I don't approve of racism... oh and I'm sorry whoever it was I called a delusional little bitch! I didn't mean to
you call him delusional while you're doing exactly the same thing
(Y)
seriously.. dont push it.. abdi is tryin to close the argument and ur going on
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Am I the only one who's realised there hasn't actually been a real counterargument to the whole Hamas thing - just denials and personal attacks?
Simpy because it is going to go out of hands. People are going to have the wrong impression, and start on twisting things around.
Already no real discussion about the 'hamas' thing and you can see how far it went. Already people started assuming things, claiming things which are based purely on their assumption and not by real consent. It deviated so much than it's original intention. In fact; this whole thread did, it was only meant to be a friendly reminder for the Muslim users on this forum.
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he won't be happy as a shit digger
Some questionable connections between the NGO running 'free laptops for YR 12 Muslim students' and terrorist organizations such as Hamas. Truly, a "charitable" organization. One moment you accept seemingly free laptops, the next you might end up sharing a cell with hicksy :2funny:
I don't think this is funny at all.
Regardless of what you believe, HAI is only doing this to encourage the Muslim Students to reach their best.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
MATE, before you go on to speak blatently about HAI being in support of Hamas, get your facts right, coz clearly they're not :)
Why clearly? The evidence is blatantly available.
CIA report on HAI terror connections: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/CIA_Report_on_NGOs_With_Terror_Links#HUMAN_APPEAL_INTERNATIONAL_.28HAI.29
NGO profile:
http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=human_appeal_international_1
And countless, countless more. ..
* Sigh* congratulations, I applaud you on such good research skills.... did that make you somwhat happy? :P
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Am I the only one who's realised there hasn't actually been a real counterargument to the whole Hamas thing - just denials and personal attacks?
Simpy because it is going to go out of hands. People are going to have the wrong impression, and start on twisting things around.
Already no real discussion about the 'hamas' thing and you can see how far it went. Already people started assuming things, claiming things which are based purely on their assumption and not by real consent. It deviated so much than it's original intention. In fact; this whole thread did, it was only meant to be a friendly reminder for the Muslim users on this forum.
There is absolutely no benefit in ceasing up, it make it seem like there is no defense. That even you who support this organisation cannot deny the links to terrorism.
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I wish to make this clear... saying "if you are a jew then it all makes sense" is an egregious form of discrimination - as if belonging to a particular religion renders your opinion null and void. That is not the type of post that will be condoned. Samiira, you are officially on notice. Abdi, you are also officially on notice for your disparaging remarks to Chavi.
Secondly, I see nothing wrong with Chavi's post. It is a legitimate question to ask and it must be noted that, comically, so many people are claiming that assumptions are being made and that none of it is true - and yet Chavi is the only person who has provided any proof.
It's not against the forum rules to be ignorant and abuse logic - but I can tell you right now that you do not help your cause by flailing your arms and crying foul when nothing foul has even slightly occurred.
This thread will be allowed to keep going as long as no further discriminatory comments are made... if it descends into a rabble, it will be closed immediately.
I really invite those users who support HAI to provide a substantive counter-argument which includes supporting evidence to rebut Chavi. That is the real way to defend your cause, with logic and truth.
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Am I the only one who's realised there hasn't actually been a real counterargument to the whole Hamas thing - just denials and personal attacks?
Simpy because it is going to go out of hands. People are going to have the wrong impression, and start on twisting things around.
Already no real discussion about the 'hamas' thing and you can see how far it went. Already people started assuming things, claiming things which are based purely on their assumption and not by real consent. It deviated so much than it's original intention. In fact; this whole thread did, it was only meant to be a friendly reminder for the Muslim users on this forum.
There is absolutely no benefit in ceasing up, it make it seem like there is no defense. That even you who support this organisation cannot deny the links to terrorism.
Well if it seemed like that, then now i'm saying it's not.
I know well enough not to speak on such issues. they're 'big issues' you know, and require a level of understanding, well beyond any of us.
Besides, i don't expect everyone to understand, coming from the vast backgrounds and perspectives that we all have, be it from the media or what not.
On the side note, there are many defenses, it is just that here and now is not the right place to discuss such things. I hope i made the case clear.
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there are many defenses, it is just that here and now is not the right place to discuss such things. I hope i made the case clear.
This is a clear bluff, and instead of making the case 'clear', you actually obfuscate it terribly by saying that there are 'many defenses'. If there are so many defenses, then why not air them? But you chase it with "now is not the right place"? Why is it not the right place? Is it because you are perhaps a bit out of your comfort zone and are afraid to have your views tested?
You have made nothing clear, in fact, all you have done is attempt to cloud the issue in uncertainty in order to deflect it. If there is a genuine defense to HAI's links to terrorism then air it - otherwise it appears as if you silently condone these terrorist links but do not wish to publically admit to it.
I hope I'm wrong, but I shudder to think that perhaps your "many defenses" involve the argument that the terrorist targets deserve it... I honestly hope I'm severely wrong.
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there are many defenses, it is just that here and now is not the right place to discuss such things. I hope i made the case clear.
This is a clear bluff, and instead of making the case 'clear', you actually obfuscate it terribly by saying that there are 'many defenses'. If there are so many defenses, then why not air them? But you chase it with "now is not the right place"? Why is it not the right place? Is it because you are perhaps a bit out of your comfort zone and are afraid to have your views tested?
Do you even know what my case was?
You have made nothing clear, in fact, all you have done is attempt to cloud the issue in uncertainty in order to deflect it. If there is a genuine defense to HAI's links to terrorism then air it - otherwise it appears as if you silently condone these terrorist links but do not wish to publically admit to it.
I hope I'm wrong, but I shudder to think that perhaps your "many defenses" involve the argument that the terrorist targets deserve it... I honestly hope I'm severely wrong.
I actually don't understand what you mean here.
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Human Appeal International (HAI) is a charitable, humanitarian, non-governmental organization (NGO) established in 1984 which works in the fields of charity, development - specializing in Social and Educational Development - Health Care and Emergency Relief. In addition to this, HAI holds consultative status (Category II) in the United Nations Social and Economic Council, maintains an observer capacity in IFAD (International Fund for Agriculture Development), and is a member of the International Council for Voluntary Associations (ICVA). HAI has also carried out joint ventures with the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for the Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA), the United Nations High Commission for Refugees (UNHCR) and has reached several memorandums of understanding with UNICEF and the AGFUND.
Human Appeal International has 12 offices worldwide serving more than 10 million people in countries including: Sudan, Senegal, Mauritania, Bosnia, Kashmir, Sri Lanka, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Kosovo, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Indonesia, Eritrea, Somalia and Palestine .
Of those individuals served, 80% are women and children. HAI has also sponsored over 46,000 orphans providing them with food, supplies, safe shelters, education and medical care through Complete Assistance Projects that ensured them secure and decent lives. In addition to the aforementioned relief and development work, HAI is credited with 20 years of humanitarian work and will continue to address humanitarian needs internationally.
Human Appeal International Australia has been established in Sydney since 1991, seeking funds from generous supporters to assist us in providing services to thousands of poor and needy people through our various programs.
http://www.humanappeal.org.au/page161730.aspx
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Did you honestly think they were going to say, on their own website, "we have links to Hamas" ?!
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Well if it seemed like that, then now i'm saying it's not.
I know well enough not to speak on such issues. they're 'big issues' you know, and require a level of understanding, well beyond any of us.
Besides, i don't expect everyone to understand, coming from the vast backgrounds and perspectives that we all have, be it from the media or what not.
On the side note, there are many defenses, it is just that here and now is not the right place to discuss such things. I hope i made the case clear.
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
Would you answer that out of ignorance or sheer malice? For our sake, I'm hoping it's the former - and you simply don't understand what Hamas is and what it represents. On the other hand, maybe you've read their charter, and you post with premeditation - another worrying sign of radicalization amongst Muslim youth in Australia.
- so you then admit that you support for HAMAS is valid from an 'ignorant' standpoint - that you seemingly don't have the "level of understanding" to comprehend the "big issues" perpetrated by Islamist terror organizations around the world. You know, big issues like suicide bombings, brainwashing poor innocent children into lives of terrorism, enslaving an entire population in Gaza under the tyranny of Sharia, holding Gilad Shalit captive, calling for the mass-murder of all Jews in their charter, links to Al-Quada and Hezzbolah, stealing international aid and running a bribe economy. Those kinds of "issues". . .
Besides, i don't expect everyone to understand,
We don't understand. What would drive a seemingly typical Aussie girl to support Hamas?
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there are many defenses, it is just that here and now is not the right place to discuss such things. I hope i made the case clear.
This is a clear bluff, and instead of making the case 'clear', you actually obfuscate it terribly by saying that there are 'many defenses'. If there are so many defenses, then why not air them? But you chase it with "now is not the right place"? Why is it not the right place? Is it because you are perhaps a bit out of your comfort zone and are afraid to have your views tested?
Do you even know what my case was?
You have made nothing clear, in fact, all you have done is attempt to cloud the issue in uncertainty in order to deflect it. If there is a genuine defense to HAI's links to terrorism then air it - otherwise it appears as if you silently condone these terrorist links but do not wish to publically admit to it.
I hope I'm wrong, but I shudder to think that perhaps your "many defenses" involve the argument that the terrorist targets deserve it... I honestly hope I'm severely wrong.
I actually don't understand what you mean here.
Yes your case was tantamount to sticking your head in the sand and hoping the problem would just go away...
In simple 1, 2, 3 the meaning of those few sentences were:
1) You were deliberately vague
2) You were deliberately flippant
3) You appear to be disguising a more sinister set of views than "now is not the right place"
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i am sorri if i have offended any1 with my previous comments..
but nywayz...if HAI was linked to terrorism.. why does it still exist in Australia..?? i am sure the experts have done much more reliable research
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I still don't get it, if they're proven to aid terrorism, why then can I walk down sydney road, walk into their office and support terrorism.
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It took 8 posts for this thread to go from free laptops to terrorism.
It seems like the post should be renamed "FREE LAPTOPS GIVEN TO MUSL-SUDDENLY HAMAS"
Topic now has nothing to do with the free laptops or VCE. So the topic should be renamed and moved to the offtopic area of the forum.
Unless hamas also pays VCAA to give Muslim students higher study scores?
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i am sorri if i have offended any1 with my previous comments..
but nywayz...if HAI was linked to terrorism.. why does it still exist in Australia..?? i am sure the experts have done much more reliable research
No need to apologise. Say what you believe in.
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Mod edit: split + moved offtopic thread
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- so you then admit that you support for HAMAS is valid from an 'ignorant' standpoint - that you seemingly don't have the "level of understanding" to comprehend the "big issues" perpetrated by Islamist terror organizations around the world. You know, big issues like suicide bombings, brainwashing poor innocent children into lives of terrorism, enslaving an entire population in Gaza under the tyranny of Sharia, holding Gilad Shalit captive, calling for the mass-murder of all Jews in their charter, links to Al-Quada and Hezzbolah, stealing international aid and running a bribe economy. Those kinds of "issues". . .
Besides, i don't expect everyone to understand,
We don't understand. What would drive a seemingly typical Aussie girl to support Hamas?
No no..that's not what i meant. I am capable of speaking of these issues but very reluctant to do so. * It's not because I don't like my views challenged.
I referred to 'level of understanding' to all of us. We cannot just believe what the media says and do, we have to be reasonable. I have been to the HAI office here in Melb, and you see nothing but numerous ways on how to help people. It's a like 'World -Vision'-serves same purpose. Nobody or nothing actually proves that what you're saying is true-the first link you provided, i read it and nothing through it said it was related to Hamas. Even if it was, it would have been shown by now ( especially at the time of the Gaza wars and the flotilla attacks)..Even the websights you brought were like in ...2003?
there is no point in quoting me half way, i said this because i understand the differences that we all have.
Yes your case was tantamount to sticking your head in the sand and hoping the problem would just go away...
i see, nice analogy.
In simple 1, 2, 3 the meaning of those few sentences were:
1) You were deliberately vague
2) You were deliberately flippant
3) You appear to be disguising a more sinister set of views than "now is not the right place"
My case was only to reply to Matty,
There is absolutely no benefit in ceasing up, it make it seem like there is no defense. That even you who support this organisation cannot deny the links to terrorism.
Who pointed out what it seemed as. I just wanted to clarify my point very briefly,-'that i cannot deny links..etc'. That was it. can't make it easier than that.
wow, it's quite amusing to see how you have interpreted my intentions ( perhaps others aswell) .i always bring wrong impressions.
I'm not trying to hide anything. The fact that i said ' now is not the right place' LOL is only because I'm aware of Exam periods now. I just know how i could get so caught up with such arguments, that i can't help myself. That's pretty much why, believe it or not.
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I still don't get it, if they're proven to aid terrorism, why then can I walk down sydney road, walk into their office and support terrorism.
Good question. Getting rid of scumbags like this is yet another example of why anti-terror laws need to be upgraded. I know that in the US at least that any 'charitable' organisation with links to terror groups are outlawed.
More fuel to the fire: http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/04/pro-hamas-conference-in-ireland-we-supported-the-jihad-and-we-will-do-so-until-allah-grants-us-victo.html
It appears that the funds raised from an event in which the speakers expressed their support for the Taliban and Hamas were given directly to HAI.
Speaking as someone who has had to sprint for bombshelters with 30-seconds notice on many occasions because of Hamas, this kind of stuff gets me extremely angry, and reinforces many of my thoughts about support for terrorism in the Islamic world.
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Do you believe ASIO would know if HAI funded terrorism?
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Do you believe ASIO would know if HAI funded terrorism?
Yes. But I'm not sure they'd care all that much, it's not like they're funding terror against Australians.
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Ok now that is a ridiculous thing to say.
But anyway, if they know and they're not taking action (as they're meant to and have taken action in the past even when there was no threat to Australia) then we can say they're supporting terrorism. At least more so than us (taking laptops)?
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Because ASIO never makes mistakes?
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Similar NGOs have been banned in Australia like Interpal and Muslim aid:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/charity-used-terror-group-in-gaza/story-e6frg6o6-1111116794944
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/charity-facing-ban-over-gaza-aid/story-e6frg6tx-1111116805187
and the Australian branch of HAI was banned by Israel:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/charity-banned-for-aiding-terror/story-e6frg6nf-1111117064706
Perhaps it's just a matter of time that the Aussie government sees through the "humanitarian" veneer and bans this group as well?
No no..that's not what i meant. I am capable of speaking of these issues but very reluctant to do so. * It's not because I don't like my views challenged.
I referred to 'level of understanding' to all of us. We cannot just believe what the media says and do, we have to be reasonable. I have been to the HAI office here in Melb, and you see nothing but numerous ways on how to help people. It's a like 'World -Vision'-serves same purpose. Nobody or nothing actually proves that what you're saying is true-the first link you provided, i read it and nothing through it said it was related to Hamas. Even if it was, it would have been shown by now ( especially at the time of the Gaza wars and the flotilla attacks)..Even the websights you brought were like in ...2003?
Right from the website:
http://www.humanappeal.org.au/GazaAppeal.aspx - this appeal with full knowledge that Hamas is in charge of aid distribution.
It's no small wonder that Hamas has been accused of stealing aid and running a bribe economy in Gaza.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5661823.ece
(btw, in an epic irony, you can clearly see hebrew writing from the Israeli aid delivered to the residents of Gaza)
I'm not trying to hide anything. The fact that i said ' now is not the right place' LOL is only because I'm aware of Exam periods now. I just know how i could get so caught up with such arguments, that i can't help myself. That's pretty much why, believe it or not.
We're all in exam period. It doesn't magically lessen our obligation to remain steadfast and upright. In reality, there's just 1 argument: whether or not Muslim VCE students will still continue to support HAI despite the fact that they now have proof that HAI supports terrorism.
I believe in your case, referring to one of your first posts, the argument has been settled.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXXqlWD3LI
LOL....!! a must see
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We're all in exam period. It doesn't magically lessen our obligation to remain steadfast and upright. In reality, there's just 1 argument: whether or not Muslim VCE will still continue to support HAI despite the fact that they now have proof that HAI supports terrorism.
I believe in your case, referring to one of your first posts, the argument has been settled.
"Muslim VCE"?
Please do not lump every Muslim student into the same group based on the opinions of very few. It's comments like that that encourage the "us and them" mentality with regards to the Muslim community.
I have dear Muslim friends who would never support such a thing.
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Agreed with ninwa, Chavi, please do not demonise the Muslim communities. There are 3 people who have posted in this thread whom you believe to be misguided, address them please.
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Similar NGOs have been banned in Australia like Interpal and Muslim aid:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/charity-used-terror-group-in-gaza/story-e6frg6o6-1111116794944
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/charity-facing-ban-over-gaza-aid/story-e6frg6tx-1111116805187
and the Australian branch of HAI was banned by Israel:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/charity-banned-for-aiding-terror/story-e6frg6nf-1111117064706
Perhaps it's just a matter of time that the Aussie government sees through the "humanitarian" veneer and bans this group as well?
No no..that's not what i meant. I am capable of speaking of these issues but very reluctant to do so. * It's not because I don't like my views challenged.
I referred to 'level of understanding' to all of us. We cannot just believe what the media says and do, we have to be reasonable. I have been to the HAI office here in Melb, and you see nothing but numerous ways on how to help people. It's a like 'World -Vision'-serves same purpose. Nobody or nothing actually proves that what you're saying is true-the first link you provided, i read it and nothing through it said it was related to Hamas. Even if it was, it would have been shown by now ( especially at the time of the Gaza wars and the flotilla attacks)..Even the websights you brought were like in ...2003?
Right from the website:
http://www.humanappeal.org.au/GazaAppeal.aspx - this appeal with full knowledge that Hamas is in charge of aid distribution.
It's no small wonder that Hamas has been accused of stealing aid and running a bribe economy in Gaza.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/06/gaza-un-aid-hamas
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5661823.ece
(btw, in an epic irony, you can clearly see hebrew writing from the Israeli aid delivered to the residents of Gaza)
I'm not trying to hide anything. The fact that i said ' now is not the right place' LOL is only because I'm aware of Exam periods now. I just know how i could get so caught up with such arguments, that i can't help myself. That's pretty much why, believe it or not.
We're all in exam period. It doesn't magically lessen our obligation to remain steadfast and upright.
Of course not. That is why I tried to point my stance on this. *very briefly, But i guess it didn't turn out how i thought it would be.
I will look at those sites later, when i have my own time. I only looked at the HAI site and I don't know how you came to infer of them having "full knowledge".
I still stand with my original belief, you may wish me to be misguided, only because I happen to be on the side of the case. I believe if a Jewish community was to do something like this, the responses would be very different. Positive, if not more.
But when it came to a "Muslim" organisation, suddenly all these politics came in which, I believe, was too controversial and not needed. If you have asked any of those those achievers, You would come to know that such a topic was far from their minds.
What you have provided is not solid proof. To just claim HAI has direct links, you need a lot more than that. Not just articles in websites.
TC.
Souljette
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What you have provided is not solid proof. To just claim HAI has direct links, you need a lot more than that. Not just articles in websites.
So what would be "solid proof"? Having HAI list Hamas as an affiliate on their website? If you're ignoring the evidence presented on the basis that it's prejudiced against a muslim community, then you're being unreasonable and unrealistic.
I have no particular interest in the HAMAS/palestine etc. debate so I came into this thread without having researched/known about the details (just the general situation) and it seems to me that HAI is a lot more than they claim to be. Sure they might be doing a good thing by fostering education in australia, but I would be having reservations about what exactly it is they're doing on an international level.
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What you have provided is not solid proof. To just claim HAI has direct links, you need a lot more than that. Not just articles in websites.
So what would be "solid proof"? Having HAI list Hamas as an affiliate on their website? If you're ignoring the evidence presented on the basis that it's prejudiced against a muslim community, then you're being unreasonable and unrealistic.
Russ, there are so many websites/news articles that go against all these things and some are not true, Don't expect me to believe everything i read. So far, whatever i have look at didn't provide any clear evidence other that it being a "suspect" or whatever, which all the cases against the Muslims just always seem to be, and i am yet to find any clear -solid- proofs.
if you have ever been in work with HAI, or giving to donations to whomever, they always provided accompanying photos to prove where your money has went too. This is what happened with us when we donated to build wells for the unfortunate overseas.
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So far, whatever i have look at didn't provide any clear evidence other that it being a "suspect" or whatever, which all the cases against the Muslims just always seem to be, and i am yet to find any clear -solid- proofs.
I am absolutely disgusted that you could have the audacity to say that. 15,000 deadly terror attacks perpetrated by Muslims in the last decade proves very well that the claims are not all 'suspect without any proof'. Pretending that there is no problem does not make it go away, it only makes it worse.
I find this refusal to see the truth regarding this organisation extremely telling.
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Russ, there are so many websites/news articles that go against all these things and some are not true, Don't expect me to believe everything i read
Of course you shouldn't. But if you don't then you should be able to provide a reason beyond "it's not true", which is something that has been completely lacking in this thread so far.
So i repeat, why isn't this "solid" proof?
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And the winner is...Chavi! :D
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I believe if a Jewish community was to do something like this, the responses would be very different. Positive, if not more.
1) Please don't turn this into a Jewish vs. Muslim debate.
2) Are you friggin kidding me? Were you living underground when the outrage around the flotilla attack happened?!
You demand "solid" proof yet none of you have provided anything beyond childish ad hominem attacks and empty denials. Are you actually aware of what a hypocrite you're being?
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I believe if a Jewish community was to do something like this, the responses would be very different. Positive, if not more.
1) Please don't turn this into a Jewish vs. Muslim debate.
2) Are you friggin kidding me? Were you living underground when the outrage around the flotilla attack happened?!
You demand "solid" proof yet none of you have provided anything beyond childish ad hominem attacks and empty denials. Are you actually aware of what a hypocrite you're being?
like i said previously.. if HAI was really linked to terrorism and all dat crap.. why does it even exist in Australia.. Why hasn't the government acted against it..?? i am sure the experts have done much more reliable research.. like souljette said.. u cant believe everything the newspapers proclaims.... we are not saying we suport terrorism or any of that sort.. certainly its wrong.. we have nothing to do with.... Btw wat is ur point anyway..?? that we shouldnt accept the laptops coz they are linked to terrorism or wat..?? seriously u ppl need a life.. go mind ur own business... Ur statements.. are all based on wat da media says ... ur misunderstandings about islam and all.. If ur not hundred percent certain of anything dont just blabber it out.. plus the media is definately not a gud source to find out reality... Any one can make up bullshit ..
and i believe this discussion should end here..
its realli not getting anywhere.. and i suggest that u should just keep ur thoughts and beliefs to urself.. were not interested.. !
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lol
we are not saying we suport terrorism or any of that sort..
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
I was actually on your side until I realised you don't even have any half-decent defence
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like i said previously.. if HAI was really linked to terrorism and all dat crap.. why does it even exist in Australia..
de facto argument is the equivalent of saying "it's not because it's not"
I don't really care if you take the laptops or not, I just think that your attitude is pretty atrocious and deliberately ignorant
If ur not hundred percent certain of anything dont just blabber it out..
Congratulations, you just eliminated the majority of all knowledge
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plus the media is definately not a gud source to find out reality... Any one can make up bullshit ..
Would you rather I infiltrate the Hamas ranks and find out for myself?
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STOP BULLYING EACH OTHER!
That is all.
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They should just build another holy land.
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like i said previously.. if HAI was really linked to terrorism and all dat crap.. why does it even exist in Australia..
de facto argument is the equivalent of saying "it's not because it's not"
I don't really care if you take the laptops or not, I just think that your attitude is pretty atrocious and deliberately ignorant
If ur not hundred percent certain of anything dont just blabber it out..
Congratulations, you just eliminated the majority of all knowledge
wat the..??? wat attitude..??? you's are da one dat started da shit.. doesnt da message get thru ur thick head
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STOP BULLYING EACH OTHER!
That is all.
yes it shall end at this.. full stop.
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wat the..??? wat attitude..??? you's are da one dat started da shit.. doesnt da message get thru ur thick head
Don't think anything more needs to be said
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Why are you so concerned with halting debate? I for one think ninwa and enwiabe's comments are helping to move the thread into proper debate and am very interested to hear someone attempt logical opposition to Chavi's points.
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Fret not Russ. I have studied others like him before and I am fairly certain I can communicate effectively in his language
hello.. do u understand me..? i come from planet earth.. i am sory if my speaking is not as gud as urs.. i believe u and ur friend are in a state of denial.. on planet earth, you need evidnce to bak ur claims.. contest the evidence not the source (unless if the source is shiity, but the news links here are largely trustworthy) thank you.. Can we frend???
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plus the media is definately not a gud source to find out reality... Any one can make up bullshit ..
And what IS a "gud source to find out reality"? Ask HAI if they fund terrorism? Yes, let's do that.
Why are you so concerned with halting debate? I for one think ninwa and enwiabe's comments are helping to move the thread into proper debate and am very interested to hear someone attempt logical opposition to Chavi's points.
There is no debate it seems, it's just one side putting up an argument and the other acting childish and ignorant. Logical opposition would be appreciated here.
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Ah yes, unwittingly - but we know about this one. Would an organisation that would fund terrorism be giving away free laptops without some sort of ulterior motive? lol.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_04/b3968074.htm
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/saipan/SaipanLeaflet.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Foxconn_suicides
http://www.nosweat.org.uk/story/2009/03/31/un-attempts-force-sweatshop-production-haiti
Now you know of many :D
Anyway, devil advocate time. The dude with the atrocious spelling does raise an interesting point. If the links were that obvious, why are they still operating? I see Interpal has already been investigated thoroughly. The way I see it, the intentions of HiA are pure. However, due to the ascendancy of the Hamas over provisions in and out of Palestine, the HiA are forced into some sort of compromise. Hand over the goods or get blown to hell.
and the Australian branch of HAI was banned by Israel:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/charity-banned-for-aiding-terror/story-e6frg6nf-1111117064706
(btw, in an epic irony, you can clearly see hebrew writing from the Israeli aid delivered to the residents of Gaza)
1) Makes sense. After all, they were the state which placed a blockade banning humanitarian aid
2) Only under international obligations, sweetie.
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Ah yes, unwittingly - but we know about this one. Would an organisation that would fund terrorism be giving away free laptops without some sort of ulterior motive? lol.
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_04/b3968074.htm
http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/saipan/SaipanLeaflet.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Foxconn_suicides
http://www.nosweat.org.uk/story/2009/03/31/un-attempts-force-sweatshop-production-haiti
That's why I drink pepsi.
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Pepsi: The ethically sound drink
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Anyway, devil advocate time. The dude with the atrocious spelling does raise an interesting point. If the links were that obvious, why are they still operating? I see Interpal has already been investigated thoroughly. The way I see it, the intentions of HiA are pure. However, due to the ascendancy of the Hamas over provisions in and out of Palestine, the HiA are forced into some sort of compromise. Hand over the goods or get blown to hell.
Oh, that's right. HAI are "forced" into "handing over" the money because they're afraid of being "blown to hell".
and the Australian branch of HAI was banned by Israel:
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/charity-banned-for-aiding-terror/story-e6frg6nf-1111117064706
(btw, in an epic irony, you can clearly see hebrew writing from the Israeli aid delivered to the residents of Gaza)
1) Makes sense. After all, they were the state which placed a blockade banning humanitarian aid
2) Only under international obligations, sweetie.
Notwithstanding the fact that this isn't a debate about the merits of the Gaza blockade, you have to ask yourself:
1) Why is Gaza's border with Egypt also under blockade - and why is there a blockade in the first place?
2) What are Israel's "international obligations", if it withdrew to '67 border with Gaza in 2005?
Anyhow, to answer some of your other concerns.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6403
The U.S. Senate Committee on Finance is currently investigating HAI for suspected ties to international Islamic terrorism. According to the FBI, Hamas operations in Jordan are carried out through HAI. As early as 1996, a CIA document linked HAI to the now-defunct Saudi-based charity Muwafaq, which the U.S. identified as an al Qaeda front organization. That document further named HAI as a fundraiser for Hamas.
That's right, turns out that they have links to the mother of all terror organizations, Al Quaeda
http://europenews.dk/en/node/12586
Human Appeal International (HAI), a UAE government-run "charitable" organization, whose board includes the UAE president,77 continues to fund Hamas and other Palestinian organizations, .martyrs,. and Palestinian terrorists in Israeli prisons and their families. The HAI modus operandi includes transferring funds to the Palestinian Red Crescent, whose West Bank and Gaza branches Hamas runs. Hamas, in turn, distributes the money to Hamas “charities.”
So, why hasn't HAI been banned yet in Australia? Like was mentioned previously, it's only a matter of time - that's why their offices may still be open - but one should note, that there are legislators pushing for NGOs such as HAI to be criminalized in Australia.
Additionally, HAI along with a slew of other NGOs are appealing against Australia's anti-terror laws and legislation (conflict of interest much?)
http://www.crimeprevention.gov.au/www/agd/rwpattach.nsf/VAP/%28966BB47E522E848021A38A20280E2386%29~SLB+-+Submission+on+National+Security+Legislation+Amendment+Bill+2009+-+AMCRAN+October+2009.txt/
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXXqlWD3LI
LOL....!! a must see
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People there's a more important issue that this website clearly tries to address and that is the VCE. Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate because that'll make you no better than all them double faced sh** headed politicians out there. Go and give your 2cents about this topic somewhere else. And so what if some high achievers are getting a laptop and you're not. The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
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Do you believe ASIO would know if HAI funded terrorism?
Yes. And they have conclusive evidence that HAI funds HAMAS. The only problem is that Australian government makes a distinction between the military wing of Hamas and the non-military wing - although in reality they are two fingers of the same hand. Once the all wings of the HAMAS terrorist organization are officially recognized by Australia (like they are in the US, EU and many other countries), "Human Appeal Australia's" role in funding the global terror machine can be more closely investigated.
Only one question remains: Whether or not you will continue to advocate and support HAI with all the conclusive evidence that proves that it finances global terror.
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People there's a more important issue that this website clearly tries to address and that is the VCE. Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate because that'll make you no better than all them double faced sh** headed politicians out there. Go and give your 2cents about this topic somewhere else. And so what if some high achievers are getting a laptop and you're not. The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
couldn't have said it better myself! :D
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People there's a more important issue that this website clearly tries to address and that is the VCE. Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate because that'll make you no better than all them double faced sh** headed politicians out there. Go and give your 2cents about this topic somewhere else. And so what if some high achievers are getting a laptop and you're not. The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
:) i like wat u said...i think we shud end it here..
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People there's a more important issue that this website clearly tries to address and that is the VCE. Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate because that'll make you no better than all them double faced sh** headed politicians out there. Go and give your 2cents about this topic somewhere else. And so what if some high achievers are getting a laptop and you're not. The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
This isn't a race debate. It's a pertinent issue that affects a particular demographic of VCE students - who stand to receive 'blood laptops'. Any sane, morally upright person will denounce Human Appeal International. We now extend this 'appeal' to some of the users of this site.
To quote from Robert Bolt's historical drama, A man for all seasons: In a world where "so much wickedness purchases so much worldy prospering, we must stand fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes."
So do you condemn HAI?
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People there's a more important issue that this website clearly tries to address and that is the VCE. Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate because that'll make you no better than all them double faced sh** headed politicians out there. Go and give your 2cents about this topic somewhere else. And so what if some high achievers are getting a laptop and you're not. The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
This isn't a race debate. It's a pertinent issue that affects a particular demographic of VCE students - who stand to receive 'blood laptops'. Any sane, morally upright person will denounce Human Appeal International. We now extend this 'appeal' to some of the users of this site.
To quote from Robert Bolt's historical drama, A man for all seasons: In a world where "so much wickedness purchases so much worldy prospering, we must stand fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes."
So do you condemn HAI?
quit it chavi ..no one cares anymore :S
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
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This isn't a race debate. It's a pertinent issue that affects a particular demographic of VCE students - who stand to receive 'blood laptops'. Any sane, morally upright person will denounce Human Appeal International. We now extend this 'appeal' to some of the users of this site.
To quote from Robert Bolt's historical drama, A man for all seasons: In a world where "so much wickedness purchases so much worldy prospering, we must stand fast a little, even at the risk of being heroes."
So do you condemn HAI?
quit it chavi ..no one cares anymore :S
It is only you who are bitterly clutching at the hope that you had that, in the face of challenging evidence, wish to run away from this debate.
EDIT: Superflya, do you know anything about hamas? and its style of government? ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Political_violence_and_terrorism
Hamas uses both political activities and violence in pursuit of its goals. For example, while politically engaged in the 2006 Palestinian Territories parliamentary election campaign, Hamas stated in its election manifesto that it was prepared to use "armed resistance to end the occupation".[239]
From 2000 to 2004, Hamas was responsible for killing nearly 400 Israelis and wounding more than 2,000 in 425 attacks, according to the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. From 2001 through May 2008, Hamas launched more than 3,000 Qassam rockets and 2,500 mortar attacks into Israel.[240]
Also, disturbingly:
Israel has accused Hamas of using children as human shields.
...
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and no im not taking part in this debate. Were all a bunch of kids behind our computer screens acting it tough. The internet is made full of bs, i mean you can probably link me to Hamas aswell .. we both have the letters m and a ? that would probably be enough evidence true?
Quit yappin about insignificant information, let the real people deal with it. What we say here isn't going to change anything. VCE is the real terrorist, the real hamas. =="
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People there's a more important issue that this website clearly tries to address and that is the VCE. Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate because that'll make you no better than all them double faced sh** headed politicians out there. Go and give your 2cents about this topic somewhere else. And so what if some high achievers are getting a laptop and you're not. The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
1) This topic is in general discussion, that's why (I guess) this forum was made- for general discussion.
2) Who turned this into a race/religious debate? And when?
3) The fact that you're linking an organisation that supports achievement to one that supports terrorism just shows the kind of person you are. Quit opressin
What "kind of person" have we become by opposing terrorism? We haven't linked them, they linked themselves.
and no im not taking part in this debate. Were all a bunch of kids behind our computer screens acting it tough. The internet is made full of bs, i mean you can probably link me to Hamas aswell .. we both have the letters m and a ? that would probably be enough evidence true?
Quit yappin about insignificant information, let the real people deal with it. What we say here isn't going to change anything. VCE is the real terrorist, the real hamas. =="
.... Insignificant information?
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I condemn any sort of violence or terrorism, no doubt about that. But "Blood Laptops"? Are you for real?
There's a whole heap of business's linked with large organisations that fund operations of bloodshed and massacre, why do i not hear you investigate upon them? with hard evidence?
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quick reply with a quick question? do you have something against muslims? :S
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Pepsi: The ethically sound drink
It tastes like morals :P
I condemn any sort of violence or terrorism, no doubt about that. But "Blood Laptops"? Are you for real?
There's a whole heap of business's linked with large organisations that fund operations of bloodshed and massacre, why do i not hear you investigate upon them? with hard evidence?
So we're not allowed to debate this one until we investigate each and every other organisation out? Alright, BRB 10 years.
quick reply with a quick question? do you have something against muslims? :S
No, I've got quite a few muslim friends, but I've got a HUGE thing against terrorism and those who support it.
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and no im not taking part in this debate. Were all a bunch of kids behind our computer screens acting it tough. The internet is made full of bs, i mean you can probably link me to Hamas aswell .. we both have the letters m and a ? that would probably be enough evidence true?
Quit yappin about insignificant information, let the real people deal with it. What we say here isn't going to change anything. VCE is the real terrorist, the real hamas. =="
Whilst I readily agree that VCE is a painful, painful experience, it's interesting to note how you trivialize oppression and terrorism by comparing HAMAS to an examination assessment authority.
Stand up to the accusations rather than diverting the attention away in all manners possible.
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
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and no im not taking part in this debate. Were all a bunch of kids behind our computer screens acting it tough. The internet is made full of bs, i mean you can probably link me to Hamas aswell .. we both have the letters m and a ? that would probably be enough evidence true?
Quit yappin about insignificant information, let the real people deal with it. What we say here isn't going to change anything. VCE is the real terrorist, the real hamas. =="
Whilst I readily agree that VCE is a painful, painful experience, it's interesting to note how you trivialize oppression and terrorism by comparing HAMAS to an examination assessment authority.
Stand up to the accusations rather than diverting the attention away in all manners possible.
Stand up to the accusations? Can you explain what exactly you meant by that?
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When was this ever about race or religion?
The only posts resorting to religion or race to back claims are yours:
Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate
quick reply with a quick question? do you have something against muslims? :S
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and no im not taking part in this debate. Were all a bunch of kids behind our computer screens acting it tough. The internet is made full of bs, i mean you can probably link me to Hamas aswell .. we both have the letters m and a ? that would probably be enough evidence true?
Quit yappin about insignificant information, let the real people deal with it. What we say here isn't going to change anything. VCE is the real terrorist, the real hamas. =="
Whilst I readily agree that VCE is a painful, painful experience, it's interesting to note how you trivialize oppression and terrorism by comparing HAMAS to an examination assessment authority.
Stand up to the accusations rather than diverting the attention away in all manners possible.
Can you please just lighten up? Geez it was a fucking joke.
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
So despite the evidence, you will continue to support HAI?
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
So despite the evidence, you will continue to support HAI?
despite the false evidence? yes I glady would! ;)
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
LOL Chavi is the one acting like a child? Have you even read this discussion?
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
So despite the evidence, you will continue to support HAI?
despite the false evidence? yes I glady would! ;)
Care to share how you know so very definitively that it's all false? And also why you would still support them when there is even the slightest shadow of doubt as to their supposedly pure actions, which clearly there is?
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When was this ever about race or religion?
The only posts resorting to religion or race to back are claims are yours:
Do not turn this into a race.v.race or religion.v.religion debate
quick reply with a quick question? do you have something against muslims? :S
Hey chavi it was just a question? What exactly are you trying to prove or get out of this?
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I still don't understand how people are claiming this evidence is false. Based on WHAT?
They're giving away free laptops so they must be good? VS Actual evidence.
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
So despite the evidence, you will continue to support HAI?
despite the false evidence? yes I glady would! ;)
Care to share how you know so very definitively that it's all false? And also why you would still support them when there is even the slightest shadow of doubt as to their supposedly pure actions, which clearly there is?
understand that not EVERYTHING on the internet is all truth...
you may make it look like you're sourcing evidence and claims of HIA being a terrorist organisation when really it is either false of exaggerated! Nevertheless, If it were to be, Australia would have done something about it a long time ago, After all, they've established anti-terrorism laws haven't they?
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calm down guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34HgvQlWoA0
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
merely a bully-like tactic employed by Isreal who simply can't deal with the fact that Hamas was rightfully voted in by the people.
overflowing wahhh..
http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
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understand that not EVERYTHING on the internet is all truth...
you may make it look like you're sourcing evidence and claims of HIA being a terrorist organisation when really it is either false of exaggerated! Nevertheless, If it were to be, Australia would have done something about it a long time ago, After all, they've established anti-terrorism laws haven't they?
Classic argument from fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
You're argument:
- HAI hasn't been banned in Australia
but other terror organization have been
therefore, HAI has no links to terrorism
seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
merely a bully-like tactic employed by Isreal who simply can't deal with the fact that Hamas was rightfully voted in by the people.
overflowing wahhh..
http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
Why are you changing the topic? Rather than defended HAI, you've resorted to attacking Israel. Perhaps there is nothing to defend?
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The matter of fact here Chavi, is that you've gone too far and it would be in the best interest of a mojority that you quit acting like a child and grow up. To be quite frank, you're really not doing anything by providing evidence even if you think you are.
okay you've provided evidence and all, what more do you want? you can call HIA a terrorist organisation and what not, but really thats your decision and you've made it clear to everyone here you don't support them in any way whatsoever. Now that you've done that let it go, cause you're not changing our minds about it! :)
So despite the evidence, you will continue to support HAI?
despite the false evidence? yes I glady would! ;)
Care to share how you know so very definitively that it's all false? And also why you would still support them when there is even the slightest shadow of doubt as to their supposedly pure actions, which clearly there is?
understand that not EVERYTHING on the internet is all truth...
That's correct. But nor is it all false.
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i believe you, chavi, brought up the blockade :P
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understand that not EVERYTHING on the internet is all truth...
you may make it look like you're sourcing evidence and claims of HIA being a terrorist organisation when really it is either false of exaggerated! Nevertheless, If it were to be, Australia would have done something about it a long time ago, After all, they've established anti-terrorism laws haven't they?
Classic argument from fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
You're argument:
- IHAI hasn't been banned in Australia
but other terror organization have been
therefore, HAI has no links to terrorism
seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
merely a bully-like tactic employed by Isreal who simply can't deal with the fact that Hamas was rightfully voted in by the people.
overflowing wahhh..
http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
Why are you changing the topic? Rather than defended HAI, you've resorted to attacking Israel. Perhaps there is nothing to defend?
Fallacious arguments can arrive at true conclusions!
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
merely a bully-like tactic employed by Isreal who simply can't deal with the fact that Hamas was rightfully voted in by the people.
overflowing wahhh..
http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
The fact that the people of Gaza voted in a terrorist organisation is all the more reason for the entire place to be blockaded...
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understand that not EVERYTHING on the internet is all truth...
you may make it look like you're sourcing evidence and claims of HIA being a terrorist organisation when really it is either false of exaggerated! Nevertheless, If it were to be, Australia would have done something about it a long time ago, After all, they've established anti-terrorism laws haven't they?
Classic argument from fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
You're argument:
- IHAI hasn't been banned in Australia
but other terror organization have been
therefore, HAI has no links to terrorism
seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
merely a bully-like tactic employed by Isreal who simply can't deal with the fact that Hamas was rightfully voted in by the people.
overflowing wahhh..
http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
Why are you changing the topic? Rather than defended HAI, you've resorted to attacking Israel. Perhaps there is nothing to defend?
Fallacious arguments can arrive at true conclusions!
... just not in this case.
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understand that not EVERYTHING on the internet is all truth...
you may make it look like you're sourcing evidence and claims of HIA being a terrorist organisation when really it is either false of exaggerated! Nevertheless, If it were to be, Australia would have done something about it a long time ago, After all, they've established anti-terrorism laws haven't they?
Classic argument from fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
You're argument:
- IHAI hasn't been banned in Australia
but other terror organization have been
therefore, HAI has no links to terrorism
seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
The merits of the perfectly legal, justified and humane blockade are that the civilian residents of southern Israel are not bombarded by advanced foreign-made missiles on a daily basis. As it is, due to the blockade, Hamas is only able to rain down thousands of crude home-made rockets. Were it for not for the blockade, I shudder to think what the region would be like.
And even if that means that a few Gazans who voted Hamas into power out of their own choosing have to go hungry, then I'm still all for it. Having said that, no Gazans are starving, the warehouses and markets are literally overflowing with food, lots of it provided by Israel despite it being an enemy entity which Israel has completely withdrawn from.
merely a bully-like tactic employed by Isreal who simply can't deal with the fact that Hamas was rightfully voted in by the people.
overflowing wahhh..
http://www.juancole.com/2010/01/world-health-agencies-condemn-israeli.html
Why are you changing the topic? Rather than defended HAI, you've resorted to attacking Israel. Perhaps there is nothing to defend?
Fallacious arguments can arrive at true conclusions!
You've completely ignored the evidence. You're conclusions have no substance, and you haven't based them on anything other than a fallacy.
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
punished for expressing their right to elect who ever the hell they want to lead them?
this is where the problem lies, to the people of palestine, hamas are not a genocidal terror group.
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Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Period
It is only given the defenition of a terrorist organisation according to the US which is influenced by pro-Zionist and Israeli Lobbies taking advantaged of what was announced by President Bush as “War on Terror”
Hope this lightens up this rant!
http://www.articlesbase.com/negotiation-articles/hamas-is-not-a-terrorist-organization-period-841491.html
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definition*
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
punished for expressing their right to elect who ever the hell they want to lead them?
this is where the problem lies, to the people of palestine, hamas are not a genocidal terror group.
Then the people of non-existent 'palestine' are wrong. The following is a direct quote from Hamas' charter:
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
All reasons aside, everything aside. "'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." I cannot believe anyone could say that and be supported so strongly. Utterly disgusting and inhumane. My heart goes out to all those being oppressed in Palestine and the rest of the world. Everyone should know terrorism isn't just by "Islamic" terrorists, there are such things as "Christian" terrorists, "Jewish" terrorists and other " insert " terrorists. It's just not publicised as much in the media for obvious reasons. All acts of terror should be halted. nuff said
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
punished for expressing their right to elect who ever the hell they want to lead them?
this is where the problem lies, to the people of palestine, hamas are not a genocidal terror group.
Then the people of non-existent 'palestine' are wrong. The following is a direct quote from Hamas' charter:
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.
dude, who are u to pass such judgements as to whether they are right or wrong.
*sighhh* adios.
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Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Period
It is only given the defenition of a terrorist organisation according to the US which is influenced by pro-Zionist and Israeli Lobbies taking advantaged of what was announced by President Bush as “War on Terror”
Hope this lightens up this rant!
http://www.articlesbase.com/negotiation-articles/hamas-is-not-a-terrorist-organization-period-841491.html
I knew this would come, the inevitable legitmisation of Hamas. I personally have witnessed Hamas' rocket fire at civilian communities. Believe me, if you'd ever found yourself crouching under a table praying that the incoming rocket that has been expressly targeted at civilians is not going to hit you like I have, you'd agree that Hamas is every bit a terrorist organisation.
I don't want to descend to personal attacks, but your statement makes my blood boil. Anyone who claims Hamas is not a terrorist group is a complete scumbag.
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
All reasons aside, everything aside. "'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." I cannot believe anyone could say that and be supported so strongly. Utterly disgusting and inhumane. My heart goes out to all those being oppressed in Palestine and the rest of the world. Everyone should know terrorism isn't just by "Islamic" terrorists, there are such things as "Christian" terrorists, "Jewish" terrorists and other " insert " terrorists. It's just not publicised as much in the media for obvious reasons. All acts of terror should be halted. nuff said
Name ONE incident, in the last 10 years, in which a Christian or Jew has killed someone out of purely religious motivation.
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Hey yo yitzi, do you account the flotilla attacks as an act of terror? just asking ..
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this thread is going to turn into something like this thread and many other israel/hamas/palestine/terrorism thread out there
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,26170.0.html
from the thread above
'this child got it spot on 0:34-0:44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySJaH7OXzOA'
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
All reasons aside, everything aside. "'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." I cannot believe anyone could say that and be supported so strongly. Utterly disgusting and inhumane. My heart goes out to all those being oppressed in Palestine and the rest of the world. Everyone should know terrorism isn't just by "Islamic" terrorists, there are such things as "Christian" terrorists, "Jewish" terrorists and other " insert " terrorists. It's just not publicised as much in the media for obvious reasons. All acts of terror should be halted. nuff said
Name ONE incident, in the last 10 years, in which a Christian or Jew has killed someone out of purely religious motivation.
MATE, I thought this topic wasn't at ALL about religious indifference? well according to you and Chavi it wasn't, yet now you go on to saying "Name ONE incident, in the last 10 years, in which a Christian or Jew has killed someone out of purely religious motivation."
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seriously, merits to the inhumane blockade?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
wow thats very very low...
Why exactly? Do you not agree that those who would vote to be led by a genocidal terror group deserve to be punished?
All reasons aside, everything aside. "'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger." I cannot believe anyone could say that and be supported so strongly. Utterly disgusting and inhumane. My heart goes out to all those being oppressed in Palestine and the rest of the world. Everyone should know terrorism isn't just by "Islamic" terrorists, there are such things as "Christian" terrorists, "Jewish" terrorists and other " insert " terrorists. It's just not publicised as much in the media for obvious reasons. All acts of terror should be halted. nuff said
Name ONE incident, in the last 10 years, in which a Christian or Jew has killed someone out of purely religious motivation.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chu_viol8.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tomek34d.htm
Judaism:
Jewish terrorist actions are performed on a much smaller scale, and are limited to the Near East. (The Jews comprise only 0.2% of the world population.) However, the sentiment behind those actions appears to be similar to the sentiment governing the Islamist attacks:
Karen Armstrong notes that in 1980 Rabbi Israel Hess published an article entitled "Genocide: A Commandment of the Torah" in the official magazine of the Bar-Ilan University. In it he argued that:
"the Palestinians were to the Jews what darkness was to light, and that they deserved the same fate as the Amalekites". 3
And just what fate is that? According to 1 Samuel 15:3 the Hebrews were told:
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Among the best known cases of Jewish terrorism is the 1994 machine-gunning of Moslem worshippers at a mosque in the town of Hebron. A single terrorist killed 29 people and wounded about 150 before being killed himself. The killer, Baruch Goldstein, was an American medical doctor and a devoted follower of Rabbi Meier Kahane. He became a hero to the extremists, and the marble plaque on his grave reads: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah, and the Nation of Israel".
Among the cases involving less loss of life are:
-Unsuccessful attempts to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aksqa Mosque in Jerusalem, combined with the killing of Muslim worshipers at the site,
-The killing of three and wounding of 33 students during a noon-time assault of Israeli terrorists on an Islamic college in Hebron in 1985. In the latter case, the terrorists had rabbinic dispensation.
-The killing of the Israel’s Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin by a Jewish religious fanatic Yigal Amir was motivated by the Israeli-Palestinian accords. Extremist rabbis had reportedly ruled that the Prime Minister deserved to die because of his role in these accords.
as u requested :)
EDIT: crap, forgot that u asked for just the ONE example.
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It was quite clear I said
" Everyone should know terrorism isn't just by "Islamic" terrorists, there are such things as "Christian" terrorists, "Jewish" terrorists and other " insert " terrorists.
You have presumed wrongly, as I have meant that acts of terror are carried out by humans regardless of the religion. My intent was to show that the use of the word "terrorists" should not automatically cause people to think a Muslim is involved.
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Good try superflya, but I asked for one example in the last 10 years. You're on zero so far.
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Just to put it out there - I do not have anything against jews or christians or muslims alike. I have many friends of every race/religion and what not and i love them to bits. We are all human, but only through our actions can we be judged.
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you think they are not significant? >.<
im sure there was a thread where i discussed what the rise of terrorism was driven by ...
it was in this thread
http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,28867.0.html
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Good try superflya, but I asked for one example in the last 10 years. You're on zero so far.
haha, you're incredible.
so yitzi,
the following is just yea...
The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.
however this is completely justified right??
Karen Armstrong notes that in 1980 Rabbi Israel Hess published an article entitled "Genocide: A Commandment of the Torah" in the official magazine of the Bar-Ilan University. In it he argued that:
"the Palestinians were to the Jews what darkness was to light, and that they deserved the same fate as the Amalekites". 3
And just what fate is that? According to 1 Samuel 15:3 the Hebrews were told:
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
oh and are you sure Dr Tiller wasnt murdered last year? http://www.kansas.com/2009/06/01/834444/suspect-in-shooting-death-of-abortion.html
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How the hell can the blockade be justified?
My heart goes out to all the Palestinians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGl12wbU-o
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I'm confused.
If you are so adamant that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation, then why are you reacting so negatively to the suggestion that HAI is linked to Hamas? Why get so uppity and call people ignorant/bitch/stupid etc. if they are merely suggesting that HAI is linked to a supposedly innocent group?
In fact, why not just prove that Hamas is not a terrorist group - that would have been the best defence to these accusations.
But no, you continue to post nothing more than empty denials, immature insults, and feeble attempts to stifle debate.
Lukman, in case you haven't noticed, I moved this debate to "General Discussion". Which is for... wait for it... GENERAL DISCUSSIONS. Is that alright with you or would you like VN to implement some sort of censorship policy in regards to sensitive topics? Perhaps you would like to work for the government on their internet policy.
The only childish, insulting, and sometimes even ban-worthy (see the "oh you must be a Jew" post), comments have been from the people in support of HAI.
EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXXqlWD3LI
LOL....!! a must see
why make a new account and then quote yourself on that account? =\
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In fact, why not just prove that Hamas is not a terrorist group - that would have been the best defence to these accusations.
I found the defence employed to be quite novel - "our arguments are wrong but our conclusion is still the correct one"
Fallacious arguments can arrive at true conclusions!
I mean...seriously?
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I believe if a Jewish community was to do something like this, the responses would be very different. Positive, if not more.
1) Please don't turn this into a Jewish vs. Muslim debate.
2) Are you friggin kidding me? Were you living underground when the outrage around the flotilla attack happened?!
You demand "solid" proof yet none of you have provided anything beyond childish ad hominem attacks and empty denials. Are you actually aware of what a hypocrite you're being?
Just saw your message.
1)I wasn't trying too nor do i want to. I was only trying to make a point.
2)Do you even know what i was referring too? i meant, if the jewish community was to give out laptops Then the responses would be different. Dont know where Flotilla came from.
So let's end it there with the Jewish-Muslim thing.
So i am not aware of how i'm being a 'hypocrite'. I never said i am going to prove that Hamas is not a terrorist group or whatever and that i only demand others to go provide 'proof'. And if you have read my other posts you would know that i was pretty reluctant too, i didn't want to turn this a "Israel-Palestine-Hamas' debate. I am only challenging the authenticity of these claims.
Hence maybe that's why i haven't shown anything yet. I don't know how you can use the word 'hypocrite' so easily.
If HAI is so linked with Hamas, Why don't we know of this? Why isn't any of the Muslim community aware? Why isn't there any aid explicitly for Hamas people?
What i call is solid proof ( this is not the only way ) is that if you can get any of the HAI Bored members to claim so.If HAI believes that supporting them is the right thing then they wouldn't need to hide it. I don't want some websites that only say it's a "suspect"
How the hell can the blockade be justified?
My heart goes out to all the Palestinians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGl12wbU-o
me too :'(
TC
Souljette
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How the hell can the blockade be justified?
My heart goes out to all the Palestinians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGl12wbU-o
I'm sure I've already explained this, very clearly. Were it not for the blockade, Hamas would be able to bombard the one million people living in Israel's south with advanced Syrian and Iranian made missiles, causing widespread death and destruction in civilian communities. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent such weapons from getting in.
Now are you telling me that you think Hamas should be able to fire rockets at civilian communities in Israel, or do you think appropriate action should be taken to prevent this from happening?
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What i call is solid proof ( this is not the only way ) is that if you can get any of the HAI Bored members to claim so.If HAI believes that supporting them is the right thing then they wouldn't need to hide it. I don't want some websites that only say it's a "suspect".
You really expect members of the board to openly admit to dealing with an organisation widely considered to endorse and propagate terrorism? It doesn't matter what HAI believes about hamas, it would be detrimental to their image to publicise anything pro hamas; so there is no chance you will get an admission from a board member...
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ur yet to reply to my question yitzi?
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Souljette,
Which of the following do you believe?
1) Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.
In that case, why are you so upset that people are accusing HAI of being linked to it?
2) Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
In that case, why would you still accept something from HAI even if it could be conclusively proven that they were linked to Hamas?
Would you be willing to receive help from an organization that has links to Hamas?
Yes.
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guys, guys...
It only took a couple of pages for this to turn into a hate-thread. No one should be hating anyone. It's just not nice. Why is it that any thread with 'muslim' in the title always finishes with people arguing about hamas and the taliban? No matter what religion you come from (including those of no religion) you would know for a fact that it has never been perfect, and that those of all religions and cultures do bad things. Does it matter if the 'HAI' (and admit it, you hadn't even heard of them before this thread started) favours one religion over another? The equilibrium of life will allow everything to fall into place.
So smoke some weed, have a nap and get on with life.
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Souljette,
Which of the following do you believe?
1) Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.
In that case, why are you so upset that people are accusing HAI of being linked to it?
As a Muslim, do you really believe i will turn against people of my faith who are trying to bring justice to their people, to a nation that fights against us/(my faith)? * Now lets not turn this to an Israel-Palestine debate
My only reason is I don't understand why people believe in claims that are just being considered as 'suspect' and not something so definite. Or they ready to take it to be so definite when it truly isn't, and only generating hate for no reason. And also because It is going to give the wrong impression to an organisation which they don't deserve.
And for Matty;
You really expect members of the board to openly admit to dealing with an organisation widely considered to endorse and propagate terrorism? It doesn't matter what HAI believes about hamas, it would be detrimental to their image to publicise anything pro hamas; so there is no chance you will get an admission from a board member...
Yeah I do. I understand what you mean, but i still can't get my head around that tiny office in Sydney road can have links to big political groups outside.
I guess at the end of the day, it comes down to what we label who the 'terrorists' are and how we perceive them. Each person has their own reasons.
One thing that really stood out in this whole argument to me is the amount of people who are actually against them. Never really knew that people had their cases against them- In fact, I thought people actually appreciated the humanitarian work they do.
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As a Muslim, do you really believe i will turn against people of my faith who are trying to bring justice to their people, to a nation that fights against us/(my faith)? * Now lets not turn this to an Israel-Palestine debate
No, but as a human you should be against the murder of the innocent.
I guess at the end of the day, it comes down to what we label who the 'terrorists' are and how we perceive them. Each person has their own reasons.
No it doesn't - terrorists are terrorists, there's no alternative definition. How we percieve them? Any half-decent human being should see terrorists as a bunch of scumbags hurting the innocent for their own benefit. Each person as their own reasons for what exactly?
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1) Why is Gaza's border with Egypt also under blockade - and why is there a blockade in the first place?
Not a blockade. They just won't allow Palestinians to cross borders. Firstly, they are seen to be an independent figure in mediating peace talks between Israel and Palestine. Can't be seen sheltering one side of the party. Secondly, they are reluctant in taking refugees for the same reason Australia does not want 'boat people'. It needs money to maintain and the immigrants are not gonna be paying for themselves in a while.
2) What are Israel's "international obligations", if it withdrew to '67 border with Gaza in 2005?
Oh yeah! The borders. How's that working out for you?
(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49266000/gif/_49266031_west_bank_464.gif)
Pro-tip: The blue dots are not wi-fi hotspots
Take your pick
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_605
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_672
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_799
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_904
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1435
Or if you feel like a lucky dip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_resolutions_concerning_Israel
Anyhow, to answer some of your other concerns.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6403
The U.S. Senate Committee on Finance is currently investigating HAI for suspected ties to international Islamic terrorism. According to the FBI, Hamas operations in Jordan are carried out through HAI. As early as 1996, a CIA document linked HAI to the now-defunct Saudi-based charity Muwafaq, which the U.S. identified as an al Qaeda front organization. That document further named HAI as a fundraiser for Hamas.
That's right, turns out that they have links to the mother of all terror organizations, Al Quaeda
The US backing Israel? Why I never! I'll concede this point though
http://europenews.dk/en/node/12586
Human Appeal International (HAI), a UAE government-run "charitable" organization, whose board includes the UAE president,77 continues to fund Hamas and other Palestinian organizations, .martyrs,. and Palestinian terrorists in Israeli prisons and their families. The HAI modus operandi includes transferring funds to the Palestinian Red Crescent, whose West Bank and Gaza branches Hamas runs. Hamas, in turn, distributes the money to Hamas “charities.”
q
Well, then surely the problem would be with Palestinian Red Crescent (which are supported by the Hamas) then with HAI themselves.
So, why hasn't HAI been banned yet in Australia? Like was mentioned previously, it's only a matter of time - that's why their offices may still be open - but one should note, that there are legislators pushing for NGOs such as HAI to be criminalized in Australia.
Additionally, HAI along with a slew of other NGOs are appealing against Australia's anti-terror laws and legislation (conflict of interest much?)
http://www.crimeprevention.gov.au/www/agd/rwpattach.nsf/VAP/%28966BB47E522E848021A38A20280E2386%29~SLB+-+Submission+on+National+Security+Legislation+Amendment+Bill+2009+-+AMCRAN+October+2009.txt/
Oh noes. They don't agree with some of our legislation must mean they are terrorist sympathises. Anyway, which part of the document don't you like?
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So despite the evidence, you will continue to support HAI?
despite the false evidence? yes I glady would! ;)
Hamas is not a terrorist organization. Period
It is only given the defenition of a terrorist organisation according to the US which is influenced by pro-Zionist and Israeli Lobbies taking advantaged of what was announced by President Bush as “War on Terror”
If you ignore the evidence that proves HAI is supporting terror, if you continue to support HAI despite it's links to Hamas, if you see no problem with Hamas or it's totalitarian Islamist ideology, and if you claim that Hamas is not a terror organization - but instead that fault lies with some "global Jewish conspiracy" - then you are at odds with Australia, with democracy and the liberty that we hold dear in the Western world (as well as proving that you have been radicalized by antisemitic propaganda). By extent, if we reason that you agree with Hamas ideology, then your views are dangerous and stand in antithesis to our own, thus putting Australia's existence as a democracy in danger. If you subscribe to ideas of Jihad, that Jews somehow control the world, and that all non-Muslims should be forcibly converted or placed under second-class dhimmi status - then you are unwelcome in this country - you endager our existence, and much like the homegrown Muslim terrorists who carried out the London bombings, you wish to see us dead or our liberty forcibly taken away from us. It's quite sad that it has come to this, but if you subscribe to these views, then you will never assimilate into Australian society and you stand as a fifth column, undermining our existence.
You clearly have no use for VCE, because secular education matters little in this warped ideology. Btw, whilst your peers have tried to hide behind the 'humanitarian veneer' and defend HAI as a humanitarian organization, it's interesting how you and others on this board, have openly displayed that you care little for humanitarianism, or helping others. It's just a ploy to assert credibility in the Western world. (otherwise you would be condemn Hamas for it's treatment of Gaza, you would condemn Iran for oppressing it's citizens, you would condemn Hezzbollah, you would condemn the Muslim mujaheddin currently perpetrating the Darfur massacre, and every other instance of Muslim terror.
Australia was built on the ideas of freedom, tolerance and equality. We've gold and soil and wealth for toil, our home is girt by sea. We're not going to give up as easily as Europe.
For all those reading, you should note that these posts encapsulate how the toxic ideology of Islamism is starting to radicalize and affect Muslim Australian youth.
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How the hell can the blockade be justified?
My heart goes out to all the Palestinians. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXGl12wbU-o
I'm sure I've already explained this, very clearly. Were it not for the blockade, Hamas would be able to bombard the one million people living in Israel's south with advanced Syrian and Iranian made missiles, causing widespread death and destruction in civilian communities. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent such weapons from getting in.
Now are you telling me that you think Hamas should be able to fire rockets at civilian communities in Israel, or do you think appropriate action should be taken to prevent this from happening?
Yes, the blockade does stop weapons from going into Palestine, among other reasons. It exists to purely to weaken the Palestine state and resistance pushing it up against the wall. It also allows them to illegally claim more land, hence why half a million israelis are settled illegally under international law. I mean, you don't seem to have a problem with Israel committing atrocities to civilians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre#Israeli_role_in_the_massacre
Or even more recently, Israel's dropping of white phosphorus into Gaza and use of depleted uranium in their ammo
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Btw, for those trying to turn this into an Israel vs Arab world debate, we can clearly see that you're desperate to change topics to one where you feel more comfortable.
Additionally, those criticizing Israel on humanitarian grounds whilst simultaneously supporting Hamas or Muslim terror are hypocrites. If you do so unwittingly, then be aware that those whom you defend (Hamas/Fatah) see themselves as exempt from the burden of human rights and purity of arms. They care nothing for human life, and you are running a misguided campaign.
This purpose of this topic is to discuss Muslim VCE students receiving laptops from HAI - an organization that supports Hamas (a fact that hasn't yet been dis proven despite 12 pages of blabber by the other side). Stop trying to change the topic and answer the allegations.
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I find it ironic how you still give no evidence and try to blame this on the jews.
There have been more jew comments, "is this because you're jew" "if a jewish organisation did this" etc and yet we're the rascists
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who are you to unwelcome me or anyone for that matter into this country? you're starting to sound like you own Australia, which clearly you don't! -.-'
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/chu_viol8.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tomek34d.htm
Judaism:
Jewish terrorist actions are performed on a much smaller scale, and are limited to the Near East. (The Jews comprise only 0.2% of the world population.) However, the sentiment behind those actions appears to be similar to the sentiment governing the Islamist attacks:
Karen Armstrong notes that in 1980 Rabbi Israel Hess published an article entitled "Genocide: A Commandment of the Torah" in the official magazine of the Bar-Ilan University. In it he argued that:
"the Palestinians were to the Jews what darkness was to light, and that they deserved the same fate as the Amalekites". 3
And just what fate is that? According to 1 Samuel 15:3 the Hebrews were told:
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Among the best known cases of Jewish terrorism is the 1994 machine-gunning of Moslem worshippers at a mosque in the town of Hebron. A single terrorist killed 29 people and wounded about 150 before being killed himself. The killer, Baruch Goldstein, was an American medical doctor and a devoted follower of Rabbi Meier Kahane. He became a hero to the extremists, and the marble plaque on his grave reads: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah, and the Nation of Israel".
Among the cases involving less loss of life are:
-Unsuccessful attempts to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aksqa Mosque in Jerusalem, combined with the killing of Muslim worshipers at the site,
-The killing of three and wounding of 33 students during a noon-time assault of Israeli terrorists on an Islamic college in Hebron in 1985. In the latter case, the terrorists had rabbinic dispensation.
-The killing of the Israel’s Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin by a Jewish religious fanatic Yigal Amir was motivated by the Israeli-Palestinian accords. Extremist rabbis had reportedly ruled that the Prime Minister deserved to die because of his role in these accords.
as u requested :)
EDIT: crap, forgot that u asked for just the ONE example.
Suprflya, do you know what the major differences are between some isolated terror acts perpetrated by members of other faiths and Muslim terror?
1) non-Muslim terror is almost always universally condemned by muslims/non-mulsims alike - compare this to Muslim terror, which is almost never condemned by the Muslim world - even when the victims are Muslims.
2) the sheer frequency and fatalities of Islamist terror, far, far, outweighs terrorism committed on religious grounds from all other religions put together.
3) No other religion utilizes ancient texts to justify contemporary religious violence - other than Islam.
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Btw, for those trying to turn this into an Israel vs Arab world debate, we can clearly see that you're desperate to change topics to one where you feel more comfortable.
Additionally, those criticizing Israel on humanitarian grounds whilst simultaneously supporting Hamas or Muslim terror are hypocrites. If you do so unwittingly, then be aware that those whom you defend (Hamas/Fatah) see themselves as exempt to the burden of human rights and purity of arms. They care nothing for human life, and you are running a misguided campaign.
This purpose of this topic is to discuss Muslim VCE students receiving laptops from HAI - an organization that supports Hamas (a fact that hasn't yet been dis proven despite 12 pages of blabber by the other side). Stop trying to change the topic and answer the allegations.
you're wrong, the purpose of this topic [originally] was just a query about whether HIA was giving laptops to high achieving year 12 muslim students this year!
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who are you to unwelcome me or anyone for that matter into this country? you're starting to sound like you own Australia, which clearly you don't! -.-'
No, I don't own Australia. Australia is held together by an idea: The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
Some people just want to see the world burn. Some people want to see freedom confined to the history books. Some people want to see Australia converted into an 8th century Wahhabistan. Now ask yourself - as a person who subscribes to these views - do you belong in our country?
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It is a stupid idea to give laptops to high achieving year 12 muslims anyway. They aren't being oppressed
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It is a stupid idea to give laptops to high achieving year 12 muslims anyway. They aren't being oppressed
The issue isn't about giving away laptops to high achieving Muslims. The issue is, and always has been, that the organization that funds these laptops also bankrolls global terrorism.
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http://www.religioustolerance.org/chu_viol8.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/tomek34d.htm
Judaism:
Jewish terrorist actions are performed on a much smaller scale, and are limited to the Near East. (The Jews comprise only 0.2% of the world population.) However, the sentiment behind those actions appears to be similar to the sentiment governing the Islamist attacks:
Karen Armstrong notes that in 1980 Rabbi Israel Hess published an article entitled "Genocide: A Commandment of the Torah" in the official magazine of the Bar-Ilan University. In it he argued that:
"the Palestinians were to the Jews what darkness was to light, and that they deserved the same fate as the Amalekites". 3
And just what fate is that? According to 1 Samuel 15:3 the Hebrews were told:
"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass."
Among the best known cases of Jewish terrorism is the 1994 machine-gunning of Moslem worshippers at a mosque in the town of Hebron. A single terrorist killed 29 people and wounded about 150 before being killed himself. The killer, Baruch Goldstein, was an American medical doctor and a devoted follower of Rabbi Meier Kahane. He became a hero to the extremists, and the marble plaque on his grave reads: "To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah, and the Nation of Israel".
Among the cases involving less loss of life are:
-Unsuccessful attempts to destroy the Dome of the Rock and the al-Aksqa Mosque in Jerusalem, combined with the killing of Muslim worshipers at the site,
-The killing of three and wounding of 33 students during a noon-time assault of Israeli terrorists on an Islamic college in Hebron in 1985. In the latter case, the terrorists had rabbinic dispensation.
-The killing of the Israel’s Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin by a Jewish religious fanatic Yigal Amir was motivated by the Israeli-Palestinian accords. Extremist rabbis had reportedly ruled that the Prime Minister deserved to die because of his role in these accords.
as u requested :)
EDIT: crap, forgot that u asked for just the ONE example.
Suprflya, do you know what the major differences are between some isolated terror acts perpetrated by members of other faiths and Muslim terror?
1) non-Muslim terror is almost always universally condemned by muslims/non-mulsims alike - compare this to Muslim terror, which is almost never condemned by the Muslim world - even when the victims are Muslims.
2) the sheer frequency and fatalities of Islamist terror, far, far, outweighs terrorism committed on religious grounds from all other religions put together.
3) No other religion utilizes ancient texts to justify contemporary religious violence - other than Islam.
No other religion utilizes ancient texts to justify contemporary religious violence - other than Islam? don't you think that's cause its set as opposed to the changing of your books per year- "revised edition of the bible" and so on.....
Islamic text do not need to be changed bacause they fit into any situation at any time- which explians why it doesn't change!
and secondly I thought you said let's not change the subject- why are you still speaking of religious indifference? wasn't this thread just about laptops?
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It is a stupid idea to give laptops to high achieving year 12 muslims anyway. They aren't being oppressed
The issue about giving away laptops to high achieving Muslims. The issue is, and always has been, that the organization that funds this laptops also bankrolls global terrorism.
Goddamit! I can't get rid of the Allahu Ackbar screensaver to replace it with T-Pain's 'Buy You A Drank'.
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who are you to unwelcome me or anyone for that matter into this country? you're starting to sound like you own Australia, which clearly you don't! -.-'
No, I don't own Australia. Australia is held together by an idea: The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
Some people just want to see the world burn. Some people want to see freedom confined to the history books. Some people want to see Australia converted into an 8th century Wahhabistan. Now asks yourself - as a person who subscribes to these views - do you belong in our country?
why would you assume I subscribe to wahhabisim? and yes I belong in this country as I am entitled to the right to propagate my religion just like HIA by way of showing appreciation to its muslim youth by rewarding them after having achieved success!
You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
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What i call is solid proof ( this is not the only way ) is that if you can get any of the HAI Bored members to claim so.If HAI believes that supporting them is the right thing then they wouldn't need to hide it. I don't want some websites that only say it's a "suspect"
Yeah I do. I understand what you mean, but i still can't get my head around that tiny office in Sydney road can have links to big political groups outside.
You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
Christ, at this point I'm just going to agree with Chavi and say that I don't want anyone who posts this sort of stuff to ever have a major role in Australian society
On a topic that may actually get an intelligent response:
I'm sure I've already explained this, very clearly. Were it not for the blockade, Hamas would be able to bombard the one million people living in Israel's south with advanced Syrian and Iranian made missiles, causing widespread death and destruction in civilian communities. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent such weapons from getting in.
Without condoning the terrorism of HAMAS etc., Israel isn't exactly innocent. There are plenty of reasons why a blockade is going to solve nothing and to be honest, I think that the only way to resolve the Palestine/Israel situation is for both states to start being realistic about what they can expect to get out. Neither of them are giving up a claim to the land, they really do need to start compromising and being more reasonable if they want to solve something.
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What i call is solid proof ( this is not the only way ) is that if you can get any of the HAI Bored members to claim so.If HAI believes that supporting them is the right thing then they wouldn't need to hide it. I don't want some websites that only say it's a "suspect"
Yeah I do. I understand what you mean, but i still can't get my head around that tiny office in Sydney road can have links to big political groups outside.
You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
Christ, at this point I'm just going to agree with Chavi and say that I don't want anyone who posts this sort of stuff to ever have a major role in Australian society
On a topic that may actually get an intelligent response:
I'm sure I've already explained this, very clearly. Were it not for the blockade, Hamas would be able to bombard the one million people living in Israel's south with advanced Syrian and Iranian made missiles, causing widespread death and destruction in civilian communities. The purpose of the blockade is to prevent such weapons from getting in.
Without condoning the terrorism of HAMAS etc., Israel isn't exactly innocent. There are plenty of reasons why a blockade is going to solve nothing and to be honest, I think that the only way to resolve the Palestine/Israel situation is for both states to start being realistic about what they can expect to get out. Neither of them are giving up a claim to the land, they really do need to start compromising and being more reasonable if they want to solve something.
+1
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You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
You have got to be one of the slimiest human beings that I've ever met. You support Hamas. You defend HAI. You accuse Jews of controlling the government. You constantly change topic to deflect your arguments. You refuse to back your claims with evidence.
Provide me with evidence that other Australian NGOs support terror, and then we'll have a starting point. Until then, I must ask, why are you skirting the issue? Why do you refuse to address the allegations when the evidence is blatantly staring you in the face? If you accept these blood laptops you are condoning the organization that provides those laptops. This is the conclusion any sane person would derive from the evidence that has been presented.
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You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
I somewhat agree with this.
It seems evident that Chavi did some research after sighting this post, just to create this debate.
I don't think that Chavi would have known that HAI had (alleged) links to Hamas prior to this.
Then again, you have been very ignorant. Please educate yourself on the facts, or stop hiding from them.
In the western sense, Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and no support should be given to those affiliated with such organisations, no matter what the circumstance.
All you are doing is perpetuating a (false) stereotype that all Muslims condone terrorism.
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You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
You have got to be one of the slimiest human beings that I've ever met. You support Hamas. You defend HAI. You accuse Jews of controlling the government. You constantly change topic to deflect your arguments. You refuse to back your claims with evidence.
Provide me with evidence that other Australian NGOs support terror, and then we'll have a starting point. Until then, I must ask, why are you skirting the issue? Why do you refuse to address the allegations when the evidence is blatantly staring you in the face? If you accept these blood laptops you are condoning the organization that provides those laptops. This is the conclusion any sane person would derive from the evidence that has been presented.
my acceptance of 'any' gift does not and will not concern you in the slightest way whatsoever...
"You have got to be one of the slimiest human beings that I've ever met." says the guy who claims he owns Australia, mate its a multicultural country whereby everyone's religion, freedom and rights are obligated, and that is something you can't 'attempt' to immobilise, regardless how much of a rant you create on a site!
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first and foremost, let me get this clear......
I never said I support terrorism of any sort, you only assume that I do! Secondly, I subscribing to Jihadist/wahhabi idealogies? WTF are you insane? all you're doing is making yourself look good by deriving at such stupid assumptions, and furthermore getting info that really doesn't correlate to the thruth!
You have very limited knowledge in history from your replies, you're too dependant on web-based research that you think is true, which rather hinder your arguments that are flawed and contradictive!
Thirdly, relax on the streotypes, and allow me to pose this question? Do you think HIA is a terrorist organisation? becuase they throw missiles and what not at Isreal? have you ever thought of what they do in retalliation? throw millions more?
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who are you to unwelcome me or anyone for that matter into this country? you're starting to sound like you own Australia, which clearly you don't! -.-'
No, I don't own Australia. Australia is held together by an idea: The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
Some people just want to see the world burn. Some people want to see freedom confined to the history books. Some people want to see Australia converted into an 8th century Wahhabistan. Now asks yourself - as a person who subscribes to these views - do you belong in our country?
my acceptance of 'any' gift does not and will not concern you in the slightest way whatsoever...
"You have got to be one of the slimiest human beings that I've ever met." says the guy who claims he owns Australia, mate its a multicultural country whereby everyone's religion, freedom and rights are obligated, and that is something you can't 'attempt' to immobilise, regardless how much of a rant you create on a site!
stupidity
You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
I somewhat agree with this.
It seems evident that Chavi did some research after sighting this post, just to create this debate.
I don't think that Chavi would have known that HAI had (alleged) links to Hamas prior to this.
Then again, you have been very ignorant. Please educate yourself on the facts, or stop hiding from them.
In the western sense, Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and no support should be given to those affiliated with such organisations, no matter what the circumstance.
All you are doing is perpetuating a (false) stereotype that all Muslims condone terrorism.
I don't think this topic required 13 pages of insults, racist antisemitic stereotypes, or a debate on middle-east politics. It just required members to provide objective support for their claims, or to renounce and condemn HAI - by refusing to accept the laptops.
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The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
just to point out; Australian's don't have freedom of speech per se
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who are you to unwelcome me or anyone for that matter into this country? you're starting to sound like you own Australia, which clearly you don't! -.-'
No, I don't own Australia. Australia is held together by an idea: The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
Some people just want to see the world burn. Some people want to see freedom confined to the history books. Some people want to see Australia converted into an 8th century Wahhabistan. Now asks yourself - as a person who subscribes to these views - do you belong in our country?
my acceptance of 'any' gift does not and will not concern you in the slightest way whatsoever...
"You have got to be one of the slimiest human beings that I've ever met." says the guy who claims he owns Australia, mate its a multicultural country whereby everyone's religion, freedom and rights are obligated, and that is something you can't 'attempt' to immobilise, regardless how much of a rant you create on a site!
stupidity
You wouldn't have said all this if your religious community was giving out free stuff too okay, go and ask your jewish religious leaders to innovate and come up with something to reward those that do good!
I somewhat agree with this.
It seems evident that Chavi did some research after sighting this post, just to create this debate.
I don't think that Chavi would have known that HAI had (alleged) links to Hamas prior to this.
Then again, you have been very ignorant. Please educate yourself on the facts, or stop hiding from them.
In the western sense, Hamas is a terrorist organisation, and no support should be given to those affiliated with such organisations, no matter what the circumstance.
All you are doing is perpetuating a (false) stereotype that all Muslims condone terrorism.
I don't think this topic required 13 pages of insults, racist antisemitic stereotypes, or a debate on middle-east politics. It just required members to provide objective support for their claims, or to renounce and condemn HAI - by refusing to accept the laptops.
you're not even getting the Laptop, why are you carrying on like a moron?
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The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
just to point out; Australian's don't have freedom of speech per se
I'm free to stand in front of Parliament house and publicly denounce government policies without any fear of retaliation or retribution. I can write in to any newspaper, or create my own - without government censorship. I can run for office, or post a billboard in front of my house airing my political views. How is that not freedom of speech?
Compare this to Gaza where dissidents are murdered by Hamas for airing opposing views, or Iran (and the rest of the Muslim world) where writing against the government or in support of Israel will land you in Jail or worse!
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He's being semantic and going with the argument that we don't have a formal protection of freedom of speech
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The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
just to point out; Australian's don't have freedom of speech per se
I'm free to stand in front of Parliament house and publicly denounce government policies without any fear of retaliation or retribution. I can write in to any newspaper, or create my own - without government censorship. I can run for office, or post a billboard in front of my house airing my political views. How is that not freedom of speech?
Compare this to Gaza where dissidents are murdered by Hamas for airing opposing views, or Iran (and the rest of the Muslim world) where writing against the government or in support of Israel will land you in Jail or worse!
Thats all the right to freedom of political speech, not speech in itself... learn your legal and history :P
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Islamic text do not need to be changed bacause they fit into any situation at any time
actually it does nneed to be changed. many of the fucked up things inside it dont fit in todays day and age.
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Islamic text do not need to be changed bacause they fit into any situation at any time
actually it does nneed to be changed. many of the fucked up things inside it dont fit in todays day and age.
mind having some respect? geez....
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Islamic text do not need to be changed bacause they fit into any situation at any time
actually it does nneed to be changed. many of the fucked up things inside it dont fit in todays day and age.
mind having some respect? geez....
Oh god, this can only end well
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you can say whatever you want about political matters, that is constitutionally protected. but freedom of speech in the same sense as the USA, South Africa and other countries is not constitutionally protected. (note, creating a strawman argument was not my intention)
but I do support your points chavi, particularly because the other side is still failing to counteract your arguments, and if anything their aim seems to be to oppress your viewpoint and nothing more. To the other side: note that Chavi is not picking on the religion he is picking on the supposed (which more than justifies Chavi's right to argue) HAI link to supporting terrorism.
whether or not Chavi's religion was giving out free laptop's in which case he wouldn't complain is irrelevant unless Chavi has a religion that supports terrorists.
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I'm free to stand in front of Parliament house and publicly denounce government policies without any fear of retaliation or retribution. I can write in to any newspaper, or create my own - without government censorship. I can run for office, or post a billboard in front of my house airing my political views. How is that not freedom of speech?
Compare this to Gaza where dissidents are murdered by Hamas for airing opposing views, or Iran (and the rest of the Muslim world) where writing against the government or in support of Israel will land you in Jail or worse!
Thats all the right to freedom of political speech, not speech in itself... learn your legal and history :P
[grammar]
Islamic text do not need to be changed bacause they fit into any situation at any time
actually it does nneed to be changed. many of the fucked up things inside it dont fit in todays day and age.
mind having some respect? geez....
LOL. This post wins the IRONY award. Given some of your hateful and vindictive comments on this thread, I'm sure you know all about respect. You probably know all about honour as well. Perhaps you might even kill to protect that honour and the honour of Islamic NGOs in Australia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing
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Chavi, your ego is getting to your head. Its best if you just shut up, you may think you know oh so much when really you don't!
and you don't seem to really know what fuels muslim 'radicals'; its the idea of occupation!
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Do you think HIA is a terrorist organisation? becuase they throw missiles and what not at Isreal? have you ever thought of what they do in retalliation? throw millions more?
Thank you for opening my eyes. Whereas previously I had convinced myself that noone in Australia would support terrorism I am now dreadfully concerned about Islamic extremism in Australia. You just inferred that the terrorism of Hamas is justified (I think, please work on your grammar and sentance structure.)
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Chavi, your ego is getting to your head. Its best if you just shut up, you may think you know oh so much when really you don't!
and you don't seem to really know what fuels muslim 'radicals'; its the idea of occupation!
if he doesn't know, which you claim he doesn't, you should explain what he should know (with evidence) relevant to this topic. right now you're just screaming that everyone's ignorant and doesn't understand
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so you guys are trying to steer away from the fact that you've introduced religion into by commenting on my grammer and sentence structure?
You've lost the argument, you couldn't maintain logic and became biased. Although you're trying to appeal to our Australian and western identity, you guys are tragically failing!
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*facepalm* don't say chavi and everyone else arguing rationally has lost. please, wade through your posts and explain what evidence you have given to substantiate... whatever it is you're saying (by the way... what the hell WAS your argument? that we should all stop making these claims?)
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so you guys are trying to steer away from the fact that you've introduced religion into by commenting on my grammer and sentence structure?
You've lost the argument, you couldn't maintain logic and became biased. Although you're trying to appeal to our Australian and western identity, you guys are tragically failing!
It's true, I also usually lose arguments that involve me and a brick wall. So hard to convince that wall of anything...
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At this point I'm just reading this thread for the hilarity value inherent in the posts of half the people here.
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so you guys are trying to steer away from the fact that you've introduced religion into by commenting on my grammer and sentence structure?
get rid of 'into'
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On another note, seeing Abdi refuses to listen to logic, what is everyone's opinions on the free laptops offer (disregarding it being run by HIA.) I'm concerned that it adds to segregation. Surely the way forward is to treat everyone equally and to avoid conditional charity?
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The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
just to point out; Australian's don't have freedom of speech per se
Ooh. Look at me, I do legal studies. Bitches don't know about my common law
On another note, seeing Abdi refuses to listen to logic, what is everyone's opinions on the free laptops offer (disregarding it being run by HIA.) I'm concerned that it adds to segregation. Surely the way forward is to treat everyone equally and to avoid conditional charity?
Segregation is a bit much. I highly doubt anyone is that much of an idiot to care what some Muslim kids who got good marks got rewarded with. It reminded me of a time when a army dude handed out laptops to some other dudes at my school for being good army dudes. I 'laughed out loud' and went to sleep. Mind you, with my give-a-fuck ometer still somewhere in the red
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The idea that everyone should be entitled to freedom of speech, freedom from persecution and tolerance.
just to point out; Australian's don't have freedom of speech per se
Ooh. Look at me, I do legal studies. Bitches don't know about my common law
haha... I suppose
I don't understand why they're giving out the laptop, does it help them in their studies?
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Doesn't help them in VCE, I guess it's an incentive to do well. It'd help for tertiary education.
But I don't really think that having them awarded is divisive or based on segregation. A large amount of Australian muslims are recent immigrants (I work with a lot of them) and their education level is invariably lower than an nth generation Australian of the same age. So the idea is good imo
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the act of encouraging education by rewarding students is a good act in its own right.
if a murderer gave a lot of money in charity does it nullify his charity? I think the charity itself is fine, the same regardless of who gives it.
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If you're trying to set up some sort of straw man, I'll point out that the murderer's donations to charity aren't conceivably going to aid future murders.
But otherwise yes, the charity itself is perfectly respectable.
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the act of encouraging education by rewarding students is a good act in its own right.
if a murderer gave a lot of money in charity does it nullify his charity? I think the charity itself is fine, the same regardless of who gives it.
But he's still a murderer and would still get convicted in a court for murder (are you comparing HAI to a murderer now?)
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As a Muslim, do you really believe i will turn against people of my faith who are trying to bring justice to their people, to a nation that fights against us/(my faith)?
So you admit that you blindly support Islamic terror, because you wish to remain "loyal" to you people? Or are the reasons based on fear - if you universally condemn terror (including that of Hamas) your family will have you stoned to death? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-507020/Teenager-honour-killing-girl-dramatic-plea-help-died.html
It's funny how you criticize Jews - and yet there is so much healthy internal debate within the Jewish community on issues such as religion, Zionism, education.
But surely, if you condemn HAI, then your community may construe your actions as 'opposition' - and the consequences may be dire. Right? Is that your reason for supporting Hamas? Are you afraid to speak out? If so, then I pity that you haven't tasted freedom despite living in a free country.
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the act of encouraging education by rewarding students is a good act in its own right.
Of course I agree but don't you think it adds to the 'us' and 'them' culture?
if a murderer gave a lot of money in charity does it nullify his charity? I think the charity itself is fine, the same regardless of who gives it.
Hamas aren't funding HIA, HIA are funding Hamas, right?
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On the topic of charity, did you know, every time someone commits an act of altruism, the part of the brain commonly associated with sexual gratification lights up?
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Except when you're having sex it usually doesn't cost you much, whilst donating $100 to charity to build a well in Tanzania is going to cost you that $100.
So you can't really equate altruism to trying to feel good, since the loss of whatever you've donated counteracts the pleasure.
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if a murderer gave a lot of money in charity does it nullify his charity? I think the charity itself is fine, the same regardless of who gives it.
I would find the murderer's motives for donating a large sum of money to a charity suspicious
But he's still a murderer and would still get convicted in a court for murder (are you comparing HAI to a murderer now?)
it's an analogy in which the meaning of the statement was clear, trying to extract intrinsic meaning that wasn't intended will just rejuvenate the previous argument
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Except when you're having sex it usually doesn't cost you much
prostitutes could cost substantially more than $100...
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the act of encouraging education by rewarding students is a good act in its own right.
Surely HAI wouldn't have any ulterior motives in providing free laptops to Muslim youth?
if a murderer gave a lot of money in charity does it nullify his charity? I think the charity itself is fine, the same regardless of who gives it.
So you do conceive of the possibility that HAI is funding murder?
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Except when you're having sex it usually doesn't cost you much
prostitutes could cost substantially more than $100...
The cost I was referring to wasn't a literal one, more of an opportunity cost etc. So the cost of buying drinks, going out, watching She's The Man with your girlfriend etc.
The $100 is also a completely arbitrary figure, for example Gates donates millions
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Except when you're having sex it usually doesn't cost you much
prostitutes could cost substantially more than $100...
Not in Thailand
According to the exchange rate right now, $100 Australian dollars equate to about 3000 Thai Baht. Now, from my trips to Thailand, the money required to get a woman (or a drag queen on a bad day) a bottle of beer would cost about 30-60 baht. So, technically, a 'woman' there really costs about a 100 bottles of cheap beer.
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don't bag She's the Man
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I write about what I know, what can I say ;)
So, technically, a 'woman' there really costs about a 100 bottles of cheap beer.
That's it, the rest of this thread is about how to buy women in foreign countries with cheap beer.
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I think it's a complete disgrace that the arguments of those supporting HAI only amount to a feeble, piddling "they do good elsewhere".
I'm going to go and give $1000 each to 99 people and then kill the 100th in cold blood. By your logic, I'm a fucking champion.
Most of the people supporting HAI now not only acknowledge their links to terrorism but support them in those acts. For youth in Australia of only 16-18 years of age to so blindly promulgate the cause of terrorism is horrifying.
Whilst it has been pleasing that all of the neutral people who posted in this thread share my disdain at this complete abdication of moral responsibility, I still cannot get over the sick feeling in my stomach at the comments I have witnessed. I am actually disturbed.
It is extremely interesting that those who so blindly support Hamas are the ones who are unable to string together a coherent argument in this thread. It ultimately reflects a complete lack of a critical thought process, which I would posit has been sadly eroded by many years of disgraceful brainwashing.
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just interested to know what does everyone define 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' as?
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Systematic use of violence and/or intimidation to instil terror.
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and you think only hamas does this?
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and you think only hamas does this?
Two wrongs always make a right!!
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and you think only hamas does this?
Hmm? Of course not
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The JDL's intended goal has been to strike fear into the hearts of Jew-haters and demonstrate that Jewish blood is no longer cheap. Is this not terrorism?
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Jewish_Defense_League
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two wrongs don't make a right
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and you think only hamas does this?
Hmm? Of course not
ok good
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this forum is quite disgraceful.
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this forum is quite disgraceful.
how so?
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the way in which the jewish have attacked islam, they have just shown me how low they are and their ignorance, surely any decent and smart person would not believe everything they are exposed to.
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the way in which the jewish have attacked islam, they have just shown me how low they are and their ignorance, surely any decent and smart person would not believe everything they are exposed to.
You're almost as smart as the other guys. Who's actually Jewish here?
Even if they were Jewish, they'd still be in the right, simply because they have some sort of logical argument.
Edit: You're taking every attack against terrorism and ignorance as an attack against Islam. You're not doing Islam any favours by doing so. Lol.
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the way in which the jewish have attacked islam, they have just shown me how low they are and their ignorance, surely any decent and smart person would not believe everything they are exposed to.
I'm sorry, what makes either Judaism and Islam so holy that they cannot be criticized? There have been many threads criticizing the Jewish community (Yitki_z would tell you all about that, he's been quite active in the defending-the-jews arena), and this is a thread of similar nature.
Surely any decent and smart person would assess things they see and not automatically reject what they don't like. And if what they choose is something out of the social norm, surely they'll be decent enough to accept the criticisms in good faith.
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the way in which the jewish have attacked islam, they have just shown me how low they are and their ignorance, surely any decent and smart person would not believe everything they are exposed to.
I-- hmm. Well-- Wow, you've really got me stumped here. I know what you mean but I can't quite put it into words. Hence, I would sum up your points with a picture.
(http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/254/a/1/derp_mander_by_zeurel-d2yj4eg.gif)
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the way in which the jewish have attacked islam, they have just shown me how low they are and their ignorance, surely any decent and smart person would not believe everything they are exposed to.
You're almost as smart as the other guys. Who's actually Jewish here?
Even if they were Jewish, they'd still be in the right, simply because they have some sort of logical argument.
Edit: You're taking every attack against terrorism and ignorance as an attack against Islam. You're not doing Islam any favours by doing so. Lol.
Actually, their argument isn't logical which annoys me. Muslims are not terrorists, yes there are those few that take it to the extreme but that is an extreme minority that has been shown to be a majority.
the way in which the jewish have attacked islam, they have just shown me how low they are and their ignorance, surely any decent and smart person would not believe everything they are exposed to.
I'm sorry, what makes either Judaism and Islam so holy that they cannot be criticized? There have been many threads criticizing the Jewish community (Yitki_z would tell you all about that, he's been quite active in the defending-the-jews arena), and this is a thread of similar nature.
Surely any decent and smart person would assess things they see and not automatically reject what they don't like. And if what they choose is something out of the social norm, surely they'll be decent enough to accept the criticisms in good faith.
Futhermore, its not a matter of acceptance or rejection rather knowing whats right from wrong and not relying on everything you hear/see on media publications, yes this includes the internet!
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Nobody said Muslims were all terrorists.
*sigh*
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Futhermore, its not a matter of acceptance or rejection rather knowing whats right from wrong and not relying on everything you hear/see on media publications, yes this includes the internet!
[/quote]
You have quite a point there, It really isn't a matter of rejection or accepting other's views rather knowing whats right from wrong!
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I put to you that if a charity that funded orphanages and KKK were to come under the media spotlight, would I be wrong in defending this charity?
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I put to you that if a charity that funded orphanages and KKK were to come under the media spotlight, would I be wrong in defending this charity?
no simply becuase they are a charity!
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Nobody said Muslims were all terrorists.
*sigh*
Well the generalization is evident in this forum which is annoyinggggggg. Hamas is not a terrorist organisation neither is HIA. Though Hamas has been involved in some events that may be deemed a work of terrorism, you cant deny that it was in the act of defense or retaliation from earlier events so how are they terrorist? and whats the reasoning for HIA, they are just encouraging those from an Islamic background push themselves to achieve greater success.
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can someone also tell me
should aid be given to gaza?
who should give aid to gaza?
how will they prevent hamas from getting these funds?
if aid is somehow given how will they end up giving it?
does the Israeli government check HAI aid before it is given to gaza?
is the current aid given sufficient?
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you cant deny that it was in the act of defense or retaliation from earlier events so how are they terrorist?
Systematic use of violence and/or intimidation to instil terror.
because they use systemic use of violence or intimidation to instill terror
but it has been established that hamas is not the only one who does this
i imagine there might be others...
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Nobody said Muslims were all terrorists.
*sigh*
Well the generalization is evident in this forum which is annoyinggggggg.
this thread was not a religious debate, it wasn't until the people who appear to be pro-Hamas brought up the religious arguments that religion became a part of it
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you cant deny that it was in the act of defense or retaliation from earlier events so how are they terrorist?
Systematic use of violence and/or intimidation to instil terror.
because they use systemic use of violence or intimidation to instill terror
but it has been established that hamas is not the only one who does this
i imagine there might be others...
I heard of this Israel group. Don't know if you heard of them, but I heard they do bad things too.
can someone also tell me
should aid be given to gaza?
who should give aid to gaza?
how will they prevent hamas from getting these funds?
if aid is somehow given how will they end up giving it?
does the Israeli government check HAI aid before it is given to gaza?
is the current aid given sufficient?
1. YES
2. Everyone
3. Pretty hard.
4. Apparently Hamas is in charge of aid distribution (I think this is Chavi's argument as to how HAI support Hamas)
5. Hope not.
6. Will never be sufficient.
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i was under the impression (i may be wrong) that on point 5. all aid must go through israeli ports (ie. flotilla incident)... so if it does i would imagine they approve of the aid.
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you cant deny that it was in the act of defense or retaliation from earlier events so how are they terrorist?
Systematic use of violence and/or intimidation to instil terror.
because they use systemic use of violence or intimidation to instill terror
but it has been established that hamas is not the only one who does this
i imagine there might be others...
I heard of this Israel group. Don't know if you heard of them, but I heard they do bad things too.
oh wat? r u serious... why no...no they wouldn't do that... why would they want to instill fear into hamas (+collateral damage)? got to be joking...that would mean by that definition they would be practising terrorism...no way!
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i was under the impression (i may be wrong) that on point 5. all aid must go through israeli ports (ie. flotilla incident)... so if it does i would imagine they approve of the aid.
Yea didn't think of that, I just hoped they wouldn't because that would be kinda stupid.
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i was under the impression (i may be wrong) that on point 5. all aid must go through israeli ports (ie. flotilla incident)... so if it does i would imagine they approve of the aid.
Yea didn't think of that, I just hoped they wouldn't because that would be kinda stupid.
stupid what you mean? its not palestinian land... its definitely israeli land for majority jews who must settle... therefore there is no right for gaza to receive aid freely.. there must be no commerce everything must be controlled and checked by israeli government/military... remember it will probably end up in the hands of the freely elected hamas...and they cannot be allowed to distribute aid to the people living there...everything must be rationed! their living standards cannot be allowed to go too high...
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i was under the impression (i may be wrong) that on point 5. all aid must go through israeli ports (ie. flotilla incident)... so if it does i would imagine they approve of the aid.
Yea didn't think of that, I just hoped they wouldn't because that would be kinda stupid.
stupid what you mean? its not palestinian land... its definitely israeli land for majority jews who must settle... therefore there is no right for gaza to receive aid freely.. there must be no commerce everything must be controlled and checked by israeli government/military... remember it will probably end up in the hands of the freely elected hamas...and they cannot be allowed to distribute aid to the people living there...everything must be rationed! their living standards cannot be allowed to go too high...
Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't think of all that.
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DUH you see how logical that is now!
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Is there a reason for this thread to go on after this?
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Is there a reason for this thread to go on after this?
Mostly to watch the pro-HAMAS brigade defend them on the grounds that they have occasionally done good for somebody, somewhere.
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My thoughts on the subject:
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/9185/bananaz.jpg)
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I think if this topic has taught us but one thing, it's that the vast majority of Muslims believe that blowing up buses filled with children is an act to be condoned. After all, how else to explain the fact that every single one of the Muslims in this debate have admitted that they have no problem at all with Hamas, an organisation which has done such a thing countless times? That's a 100% success rate in Muslims supporting terrorism.
While I am not in the least bit surprised by this revelation, I do find it exceedingly disturbing.
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what do you define 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' as?
can someone also tell me
should aid be given to gaza?
who should give aid to gaza?
how will they prevent hamas from getting these funds?
if aid is somehow given how will they end up giving it?
does the Israeli government check HAI aid before it is given to gaza?
is the current aid given sufficient?
yitzi can you answer these questions
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I think if this topic has taught us but one thing, it's that the vast majority of Muslims believe that blowing up buses filled with children is an act to be condoned.
Cough outrageous generalisation.
The thread has taught us nothing of the sort.
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I think if this topic has taught us but one thing, it's that the vast majority of Muslims believe that blowing up buses filled with children is an act to be condoned. After all, how else to explain the fact that every single one of the Muslims in this debate have admitted that they have no problem at all with Hamas, an organisation which has done such a thing countless times? That's a 100% success rate in Muslims supporting terrorism.
While I am not in the least bit surprised by this revelation, I do find it exceedingly disturbing.
Not "vast majority", more like an alarming number.
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they have no problem at all with Hamas,
While I am not in the least bit surprised by this revelation, I do find it exceedingly disturbing.
it doesn't matter whether they are supported or not, the palestinian people elected them in 2006, it is who they supported
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what do you define 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' as?
can someone also tell me
should aid be given to gaza?
who should give aid to gaza?
how will they prevent hamas from getting these funds?
if aid is somehow given how will they end up giving it?
does the Israeli government check HAI aid before it is given to gaza?
is the current aid given sufficient?
yitzi can you answer these questions
1. Not while the people of Gaza choose Hamas to govern them
2. Nobody with a conscience, given that Hamas is in charge
3. By not giving any while Hamas are in charge
4. Through the Israeli military
5. I bloody well hope so
6. The current aid is too much, seeing as the Gazan markets are full to capacity, and the people of Gaza deserve nothing at all until they remove Hamas
I think if this topic has taught us but one thing, it's that the vast majority of Muslims believe that blowing up buses filled with children is an act to be condoned.
Cough outrageous generalisation.
The thread has taught us nothing of the sort.
Are you sure? Because from what I've read here, not one single member of our Muslim brethren has condemned Hamas in any way shape or form. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that appears to be support for Hamas' actions from 100% of the Muslims who have participated in the debate.
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And that has zero correlation to "the vast majority of muslims" in the world.
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Well it may be a very small sample size, but 100% is still significant.
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man yitzi you are the cruelest guy... yes let just let them rot.... you would be perfect when go (maybe) to the israeli army
why not just chuck a nuclear bomb on gaza and start again? that would be great right? it would solve everything.... hamas is gone... people who supported hamas are gone...what more can you ask for... >.<
gazan life obviously means nothing to you
thats what they teach you in your religion right? >.<
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I think if this topic has taught us but one thing, it's that the vast majority of Muslims believe that blowing up buses filled with children is an act to be condoned. After all, how else to explain the fact that every single one of the Muslims in this debate have admitted that they have no problem at all with Hamas, an organisation which has done such a thing countless times? That's a 100% success rate in Muslims supporting terrorism.
While I am not in the least bit surprised by this revelation, I do find it exceedingly disturbing.
How many Muslims have actually posted in this thread? Less than 10. How many Muslims in the world? About 1.27 billion.
You condemn people for making comments like "you must be a Jew"? You are just as bad as they are.
I don't give a damn how salient your point was, people like you are the reason the Muslim community is so ostracised, often for no reason at all.
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Only insomuch as you want to draw a conclusion about them. You can't generalize upwards that far, it's completely unrealistic to expect half a dozen students to represent the global Muslim population.
I would also take issue with your ideas of aid but that can waittill tomorrow when my pc is working again
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I'm a Muslim, and I don't remember ever saying children should be killed nor did I say Hamas are right in what they do.
However I did say that Israel are definitely not handling the situation any better.
man yitzi you are the cruelest guy... yes let just let them rot.... you would be perfect when go (maybe) to the israeli army
why not just chuck a nuclear bomb on gaza and start again? that would be great right? it would solve everything.... hamas is gone... people who supported hamas are gone...what more can you ask for... >.<
gazan life obviously means nothing to you
thats what they teach you in your religion right? >.<
I can't believe he has no feelings towards them. Israeli blood is worth more than Palestinian blood to him.
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6. The current aid is too much, seeing as the Gazan markets are full to capacity, and the people of Gaza deserve nothing at all until they remove Hamas
Except for white phosphorus bombs. amirite?
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what do you define 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' as?
yitzi can you answer this as well
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What I find interesting is that those in this thread that have admitted to supporting terrorism, and there are a few, are by all accounts intelligent people growing up in a liberal, democratic western society. Now normally, we're told that the 'tiny minority' of Muslims that condone terror are all ignorant people living in theocracies being spread propaganda by fundamentalist Imams all day. Clearly, we find that not to be the case.
You condemn people for making comments like "you must be a Jew"? You are just as bad as they are.
I didn't actually. You can check back if you don't believe me.
I don't give a damn how salient your point was, people like you are the reason the Muslim community is so ostracised, often for no reason at all.
Yet again, you and I will have to agree to disagree on this one.
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6. The current aid is too much, seeing as the Gazan markets are full to capacity, and the people of Gaza deserve nothing at all until they remove Hamas
Except for white phosphorus bombs. amirite?
Are you right? No.
what do you define 'terrorism' or 'terrorist' as?
yitzi can you answer this as well
Why thank you. I define terrorism as the deliberate targeting of civilians in order to sow terror.
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haha thanks you prove my point
your so ridiculous
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they have no problem at all with Hamas,
While I am not in the least bit surprised by this revelation, I do find it exceedingly disturbing.
it doesn't matter whether they are supported or not, the palestinian people elected them in 2006, it is who they supported
Hitler was democratically elected - that doesn't enhance his credibility in any way shape or form. Democracy isn't about being voted in - it's about what you do whilst you're in control. Democracy is about standing for re-election - something that neither Hitler nor Hamas have done.
Hamas believes in none of this, and just used a democratic framework to get into power. There is nothing democratic about that - and there is nothing democratic about Hamas. Hence, your vendetta to legitimize Hamas on democractic grounds is misguided, and you're not contributing anything to this debate. It also sets a dangerous precedent, as by extent, you legitimize terrorism against innocent civilians (and dare I say, Australians as well). Let's not forget the Bali bombings perpetrated by Jemaah Islamiyah (meaning Islamic congregation) that killed upwards of 80 Australians. Jemaah Islamiyah and Hamas are no different ideologically.
If you support HAI, you support Hamas, and by extent you support Jemah Islamiyah, and you condone the deaths of innocent Australians.
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Why has this suddenly turned into an Israel vs Arab world debate?
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Wait, you seriously think that there is a good justification for ostracizing the Muslim community, or did I misinterpret what you said?
And Israel is by no means innocent in the entire middle eastern mess
E, because there was no intelligent discussion on HAI, so now we just make do with other (irrelevant) content
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haha thanks you prove my point
your so ridiculous
And which point is that, exactly?
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Wait, you seriously think that there is a good justification for ostracizing the Muslim community, or did I misinterpret what you said?
I think that the general refusal by the wider Muslim community to condemn acts of terrorism is grounds for ostracism, yes. Of course, this does not mean that every Muslim should be ostracised, as there are those who do condemn terrorism (just not in this topic unfortunately) but in general, it is very rare to find major Islamic organisations condemning every case of terrorism, something which I believe seriously undermines their claim not to support it.
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
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to chavi
so we're going to now start talking about how hitler or hamas rose to power and were elected...was hitler democratically elected?hmm
its not up to me whether they choose to elect hamas
im not legitamizing noone ... im just trying to get your blind brain to see how hypocritical you are
and you havent answered the two questions that yitzi answered too and it would be good if you do to so people know the reasoning behind your whole "you support terrorism" blabla
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I can't believe he has no feelings towards them. Israeli blood is worth more than Palestinian blood to him.
Blakhitman, do you have any feelings towards the Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism?
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haha thanks you prove my point
your so ridiculous
And which point is that, exactly?
read through all my posts i made in this thread and you will see a common link mixed with sarcasm
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
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man yitzi you are the cruelest guy... yes let just let them rot.... you would be perfect when go (maybe) to the israeli army
why not just chuck a nuclear bomb on gaza and start again? that would be great right? it would solve everything.... hamas is gone... people who supported hamas are gone...what more can you ask for... >.<
gazan life obviously means nothing to you
thats what they teach you in your religion right? >.<
These highlighted points work so well when describing HAMAS supporters and the VCE students who are willing to accept the laptops from HAI. Summarized and executed nicely. Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)
to chavi
so we're going to now start talking about how hitler or hamas rose to power and were elected...was hitler democratically elected?hmm
its not up to me whether they choose to elect hamas
im not legitamizing noone ... im just trying to get your blind brain to see how hypocritical you are
and you havent answered the two questions that yitzi answered too and it would be good if you do to so people know the reasoning behind your whole "you support terrorism" blabla
As we saw earlier, emotionally unstable people who support terrorism start reverting to personal attacks when they run out of arguments and evidence to support their claims. Nice to see that you've joined this group
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I can't believe he has no feelings towards them. Israeli blood is worth more than Palestinian blood to him.
Blakhitman, do you have any feelings towards the Israeli victims of Palestinian terrorism?
I have feelings towards any civilian that is killed, Arab or non-Arab, Black or White.
Did you wish I'd say no so that you can justify your heartlessness?
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
IRA, KKK, Crusades, gunpowder plot, Christian Romans used to persecute protestants, etc. Religious violence is not restricted to Islam in the past or present.
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Wait, you seriously think that there is a good justification for ostracizing the Muslim community, or did I misinterpret what you said?
I think that the general refusal by the wider Muslim community to condemn acts of terrorism is grounds for ostracism, yes. Of course, this does not mean that every Muslim should be ostracised, as there are those who do condemn terrorism (just not in this topic unfortunately) but in general, it is very rare to find major Islamic organisations condemning every case of terrorism, something which I believe seriously undermines their claim not to support it.
As much as I'd like to disagree with Yitzi and say it's just a small proportion of Muslims (who I've met) who don't wholeheartedly object terrorism, the fact is that it's not too difficult to find a Muslim that sympathises to an extent with extemists.
I'm not going to say its 100% of Muslims, or even 10%, but I'm almost certain its over the 0.01% you would expect.
Also take into account that the Muslim community here who have shown support for Hamas are anonymous..would they show such support IRL where they aren't anonymous? I doubt it.
That being said, the harsh generalisations he has made are BS. And it should be expected that people are going to support their religion if they are effectively persuaded to do so. And there may be just as many Jews, Christians etc. which condone the death of other relgions/races.
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
Sons of Freedom, Iron Guard, LANC, Hutaree, RNU, Kateb Party, Lord's Resistance Army, JDL, Kach and Kahane Chai
Quick question, by terrorism, you mean support for Hamas?
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man yitzi you are the cruelest guy... yes let just let them rot.... you would be perfect when go (maybe) to the israeli army
why not just chuck a nuclear bomb on gaza and start again? that would be great right? it would solve everything.... hamas is gone... people who supported hamas are gone...what more can you ask for... >.<
gazan life obviously means nothing to you
thats what they teach you in your religion right? >.<
These highlighted points work so well when describing HAMAS supporters and the VCE students who are willing to accept the laptops from HAI. Summarized and executed nicely. Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)
to chavi
so we're going to now start talking about how hitler or hamas rose to power and were elected...was hitler democratically elected?hmm
its not up to me whether they choose to elect hamas
im not legitamizing noone ... im just trying to get your blind brain to see how hypocritical you are
and you havent answered the two questions that yitzi answered too and it would be good if you do to so people know the reasoning behind your whole "you support terrorism" blabla
As we saw earlier, emotionally unstable people who support terrorism start reverting to personal attacks when they run out of arguments and evidence to support their claims. Nice to see that you've joined this group
omg this proves that im talking to a brick walk
just like any disagreements i have with yitzi on foreign policy ... btw page 4 of that thread gives a nice summary of what the word terrorism means
the discussion ends NOWHERE
seriously you are so one sided
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
IRA, KKK, Crusades, gunpowder plot, Christian Romans used to persecute protestants, etc. Religious violence is not restricted to Islam in the past or present.
But how many of these extremist groups are confined to the past? Can we get the HAMAS sympathizers to name some contemporary (non Muslim) terrorist groups that operate on a global scale, have a worldwide support base, and have killed in excess of thousands of innocent civilians? I can think of many, but all of them utilize Islam to justify their crimes.
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
Sons of Freedom, Iron Guard, LANC, Hutaree, RNU, Kateb Party, Lord's Resistance Army, JDL, Kach and Kahane Chai
Quick question, by terrorism, you mean support for Hamas?
Your naming of terrorist groups does not answer my question, which was for an (approximate) percentage of people who support such groups. I'm guessing the percentage of people who support those groups numbers 0.00001% of the population, probably significantly less. Now if only that case with Muslims regarding Islamic terrorism, the world would be a better place.
and btw, if you're in for a game of naming terror groups of respective religions, I'm pretty sure I'd win.
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to chavi
so we're going to now start talking about how hitler or hamas rose to power and were elected...was hitler democratically elected?hmm
its not up to me whether they choose to elect hamas
im not legitamizing noone ... im just trying to get your blind brain to see how hypocritical you are
and you havent answered the two questions that yitzi answered too and it would be good if you do to so people know the reasoning behind your whole "you support terrorism" blabla
But it is up to you whether you choose to support terrorism.
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so what was your definition of terrorism again?
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do u really wish to see the real terrorists.. heres u go..
Israeli military continues to torture Palestinian children
On the United Nations International Day in Support of Victims of Torture, DCI/PS releases further evidence that Israeli military forces in the occupied Palestinian territories (oPt) continue to abuse, threaten and torture Palestinian children.
Today, DCI/PS is releasing two case studies to draw attention to the continuing plight of Palestinian children, in particular, the 700 Palestinian children who are arrested, interrogated and often abused by the Israeli military and police each year.
In one case, Israeli interrogators beat 15-year-old Ibrahim S. over the course of several hours. Ibrahim was then threatened with sexual assault for the purpose of extracting his confession. The accusation, which Ibrahim kept denying, was that he had thrown stones at the Israeli army when it invaded his village the day before. A Military Court accepted Ibrahim’s confession and he was imprisoned in Israel for five months.
In the second case, 14-year-old Mohammad E. was standing with a group of friends near the Wall which passes close to his village near Ramallah. Mohammad was suddenly grabbed by four men in plain clothes who proceeded to hit him about the head with the butts of their guns whilst spraying his face with tear gas. Bleeding from wounds sustained during his arrest Mohammad was coerced into signing papers written in Hebrew in which he confessed to throwing stones at the Wall. An Israeli Military Court accepted this confession and sentenced Mohammad to four and-a-half months’ imprisonment.
“Palestinian children like Mohammad and Ibrahim are routinely exposed to physical and psychological abuse, amounting to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment, and sometimes torture during arrest, interrogation and imprisonment,” said George Abu Al Zulof, DCI/PS General Director. “Unfortunately, these cases are not isolated incidents as Palestinian children are systematically subjected to such abuses by the Israeli military authorities”, he said.
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http://info-wars.org/2010/01/10/charges-of-palestinian-child-torture-in-israeli-prisons/
Charges of Palestinian Child torture in Israeli prisons
January 10, 2010 by Infowars Ireland
Palestine, January 9, 2010 (Pal Telegraph) – Defence for Children International/Palestine Section (DCI/PS) on Wednesday submitted 13 cases to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture for investigation.
http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2010/09/israeli-forces-torture-16-year-old.html
This Blog Linked From Here
This Blog
Linked From Here
.
Wednesday, September 1, 2010
Israeli forces torture 16-year-old Palestinian; victim to be tried in military court; supporters ask for international help
Addameer - On 6 February 2010 Mohammad Halabiyeh, a 16 year-old Palestinian boy was arrested by the Israeli Border Police, in his hometown of Abu Dis.
During the arrest operation, Mohammad broke his left leg, just above the ankle. Nonetheless, the soldiers beat him all over his body and intentionally kicked his injured leg. Torture and ill-treatment continued for five consecutive days following his arrest and reached its peak at the Hadassah hospital, where the Israeli soldiers pushed syringes into the boy’s hand and leg multiple times, covered his mouth with adhesive tape, punched Mohammad in the face, hit him in the abdomen with a stick and deprived him of sleep in an attempt to deter the boy from reporting the ill-treatment to the Israeli police.
MATE I CAN GO ON IF U WANT ME TO
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can someone also tell me
should aid be given to gaza?
who should give aid to gaza?
how will they prevent hamas from getting these funds?
if aid is somehow given how will they end up giving it?
does the Israeli government check HAI aid before it is given to gaza?
is the current aid given sufficient?
1. YES
2. Everyone
3. Pretty hard.
4. Apparently Hamas is in charge of aid distribution (I think this is Chavi's argument as to how HAI support Hamas)
5. Hope not.
6. Will never be sufficient.
Historians widely agree that the Arab world were largely responsible and complicit for the situation that the Palestinians find themselves in (i.e. as the perennial refugees, never to be resettled, always waiting on that order to swamp Israel). By inferring that Palestinians will require foreign aid indefintely you are showing everyone:
1) that you care nothing for Palestinians, you just wish to see them wallow in an endless supply of foreign aid. This simply perpetuates the feelings of victim-hood that prevents Palestinians from getting on with their lives or establishing a state. (after all, if I am guaranteed an endless supply of aid from UNRWA, why should I bother doing anything myself?)
2) You divert attention from actual catastrophes and tragedies. Focusing exclusively on Palestinians doesn't make you a humanitarian. The people who need aid now are those starving in Niger and Zimbabwe, the genocide victims (of terrorism) in Darfur, those persecuted by Al-Shabab (terrorists? touche) in Sudan, and of course the oppressed dissidents in Iran. Palestinians enjoy longer life-expectancies than most of the Arab world, and turkey. Where is the so-called humanitarian crisis?
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do u really wish to see the real terrorists.. heres u go..
WTF do you mean by that? You saying HAMAS are not terrorists?
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to chavi and da rest of the haters!!!
Ive seriously had enough of ur shit.. honestly you've pushed things too far..its pointless arguing with u stubborn ppl with biased views.. i know u hate muslims.. but guess wat we dnt give damn.. ur radical notions about islam and muslims mean shit to us.. so i suggest u should go get a life!
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do u really wish to see the real terrorists..
Are you implying that Hamas are not real terrorists? Need I remind you that Hamas claimed responsibility for the fatal shooting of four unarmed civilians, including a pregnant mother, last month?
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do u really wish to see the real terrorists.. heres u go..
WTF do you mean by that? You saying HAMAS are not terrorists?
i havent even mentioned hamas at all.. y do u cum to irrelevant conclusions..
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And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
IRA, KKK, Crusades, gunpowder plot, Christian Romans used to persecute protestants, etc. Religious violence is not restricted to Islam in the past or present.
But how many of these extremist groups are confined to the past? Can we get the HAMAS sympathizers to name some contemporary (non Muslim) terrorist groups that operate on a global scale, have a worldwide support base, and have killed in excess of thousands of innocent civilians? I can think of many, but all of them utilize Islam to justify their crimes.
IDF
And this is restricted only to the Muslim community?
Well, what percentage of Catholics/Protestants/Hindus/Mormons/Buddhists/Jews/Ba'Hais/Atheists support terrorism?
Sons of Freedom, Iron Guard, LANC, Hutaree, RNU, Kateb Party, Lord's Resistance Army, JDL, Kach and Kahane Chai
Quick question, by terrorism, you mean support for Hamas?
Your naming of terrorist groups does not answer my question, which was for an (approximate) percentage of people who support such groups. I'm guessing the percentage of people who support those groups numbers 0.00001% of the population, probably significantly less. Now if only that case with Muslims regarding Islamic terrorism, the world would be a better place.
and btw, if you're in for a game of naming terror groups of respective religions, I'm pretty sure I'd win.
The Christian movement in Uganda is easily in the double digits, somewhere about 80-90%. A lot of people in the Middle East are more nationalistic than anything. A study was done there and most of the dissent amongst the people were rooted in anti-US policy. The fact that Israel is backed by the US with military aid and is using it to oppress and murder the Palestinian people, adds fuel to the fire. Islam is just a front. Quite an effective one in garnering support as well.
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
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also go through this http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
ull realize that israel gives way more shit to palestians than the palestians ever did give to israel.. go on justify ur beloved nation now
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Moot point considering you are doing the same thing
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to chavi and da rest of the haters!!!
Ive seriously had enough of ur shit.. honestly you've pushed things too far..its pointless arguing with u stubborn ppl with biased views.. i know u hate muslims.. but guess wat we dnt give damn.. ur radical notions about islam and muslims mean shit to us.. so i suggest u should go get a life!
Just because we are against terrorism we hate muslims?
do u really wish to see the real terrorists.. heres u go..
WTF do you mean by that? You saying HAMAS are not terrorists?
i havent even mentioned hamas at all.. y do u cum to irrelevant conclusions..
You don't need to mention Hamas. What you implied was pretty clear.
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seriously read this
the word 'terrorism' has been thrown around here to bash the people who are blinded by one road with two walls around their head
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/02/19/terrorism/index.html
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to chavi and da rest of the haters!!!
Ive seriously had enough of ur shit.. honestly you've pushed things too far..its pointless arguing with u stubborn ppl with biased views.. i know u hate muslims.. but guess wat we dnt give damn.. ur radical notions about islam and muslims mean shit to us.. so i suggest u should go get a life!
Hate, is an emotion that takes quite a lot to stir. I think throughout this discussion, you have been missing the point completely. By equating a simple query on the links of HAI to HAMAS, you seem to construe an attack on Islam. This is not the case, and you're not doing yourself a favour.
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
First of all u were the one that started all this shittalking with terrorism and hamas.. u shud honestly just shut up and screw ur self.. and if u realized this discussion was meant to end many times.. not just by us.. but also by a few other ppl from VN.. but you's ignored and went on with ur bullshitting and kept changing the topic from one thing to another.. i am more than happy to finish this useless argument here if ur willing to stop
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All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
go freakin be a neocon in the american congress
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samiira and True Light, take a step back. If you really want to do damage to him, formulate points against him. Ad hominem attacks take you nowhere
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
First of all u were the one that started all this shittalking with terrorism and hamas.. u shud honestly just shut up and screw ur self.. and if u realized this discussion was meant to end many times.. not just by us.. but also by a few other ppl from VN.. but you's ignored and went on with ur bullshitting and kept changing the topic from one thing to another.. i am more than happy to finish this useless argument here if ur willing to stop
I think this post speaks for itself.
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to chavi and da rest of the haters!!!
Ive seriously had enough of ur shit.. honestly you've pushed things too far..its pointless arguing with u stubborn ppl with biased views.. i know u hate muslims.. but guess wat we dnt give damn.. ur radical notions about islam and muslims mean shit to us.. so i suggest u should go get a life!
Hate, is an emotion that takes quite a lot to stir. I think throughout this discussion, you have been missing the point completely. By equating a simple query on the links of HAI to HAMAS, you seem to construe an attack on Islam. This is not the case, and you're not doing yourself a favour.
I think if this topic has taught us but one thing, it's that the vast majority of Muslims believe that blowing up buses filled with children is an act to be condoned. After all, how else to explain the fact that every single one of the Muslims in this debate have admitted that they have no problem at all with Hamas, an organisation which has done such a thing countless times? That's a 100% success rate in Muslims supporting terrorism.
While I am not in the least bit surprised by this revelation, I do find it exceedingly disturbing.
well if this is not hatred then i am not sure wat is
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
First of all u were the one that started all this shittalking with terrorism and hamas.. u shud honestly just shut up and screw ur self.. and if u realized this discussion was meant to end many times.. not just by us.. but also by a few other ppl from VN.. but you's ignored and went on with ur bullshitting and kept changing the topic from one thing to another.. i am more than happy to finish this useless argument here if ur willing to stop
LOL so calling Hamas terrorists is 'shittalking'? I'd LOVE to hear your description of what I would call them :D
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All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
go freakin be a neocon in the american congress
Thank you for damaging your own credibility - I glad I didn't have to do it for you.
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samiira and True Light, take a step back. If you really want to do damage to him, formulate points against him. Ad hominem attacks take you nowhere
Ah well, they're having a lot of trouble there, aren't they? Could it be because they have no valid points with which to argue?
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i did except you obviously can't comprehend the points im trying to make
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
First of all u were the one that started all this shittalking with terrorism and hamas.. u shud honestly just shut up and screw ur self.. and if u realized this discussion was meant to end many times.. not just by us.. but also by a few other ppl from VN.. but you's ignored and went on with ur bullshitting and kept changing the topic from one thing to another.. i am more than happy to finish this useless argument here if ur willing to stop
LOL so calling Hamas terrorists is 'shittalking'? I'd LOVE to hear your description of what I would call them :D
out of curiousity, what would u call them?
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to chavi and da rest of the haters!!!
Ive seriously had enough of ur shit.. honestly you've pushed things too far..its pointless arguing with u stubborn ppl with biased views.. i know u hate muslims.. but guess wat we dnt give damn.. ur radical notions about islam and muslims mean shit to us.. so i suggest u should go get a life!
Just because we are against terrorism we hate muslims?
do u really wish to see the real terrorists.. heres u go..
WTF do you mean by that? You saying HAMAS are not terrorists?
i havent even mentioned hamas at all.. y do u cum to irrelevant conclusions..
You don't need to mention Hamas. What you implied was pretty clear.
yeh an this is how misunderstandings arise.. by u ppl cuming up with conclusions like that and causing more arguments.. can u plz concentrate on teh more important things that are in the article.. you go on about muslims being terrorists when ur own ppl are torturing innnocent kids.. and yet u choose to ignore that fact
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All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
go freakin be a neocon in the american congress
Thank you for damaging your own credibility - I glad I didn't have to do it for you.
??? yeah sure... those are the pathetic arguments necons make...they would like to see ME dead ... yeah sure
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can someone also tell me
should aid be given to gaza?
who should give aid to gaza?
how will they prevent hamas from getting these funds?
if aid is somehow given how will they end up giving it?
does the Israeli government check HAI aid before it is given to gaza?
is the current aid given sufficient?
1. YES
2. Everyone
3. Pretty hard.
4. Apparently Hamas is in charge of aid distribution (I think this is Chavi's argument as to how HAI support Hamas)
5. Hope not.
6. Will never be sufficient.
Historians widely agree that the Arab world were largely responsible and complicit for the situation that the Palestinians find themselves in (i.e. as the perennial refugees, never to be resettled, always waiting on that order to swamp Israel). By inferring that Palestinians will require foreign aid indefintely you are showing everyone:
1) that you care nothing for Palestinians, you just wish to see them wallow in an endless supply of foreign aid. This simply perpetuates the feelings of victim-hood that prevents Palestinians from getting on with their lives or establishing a state. (after all, if I am guaranteed an endless supply of aid from UNRWA, why should I bother doing anything myself?)
2) You divert attention from actual catastrophes and tragedies. Focusing exclusively on Palestinians doesn't make you a humanitarian. The people who need aid now are those starving in Niger and Zimbabwe, the genocide victims (of terrorism) in Darfur, those persecuted by Al-Shabab (terrorists? touche) in Sudan, and of course the oppressed dissidents in Iran. Palestinians enjoy longer life-expectancies than most of the Arab world, and turkey. Where is the so-called humanitarian crisis?
1) After all the suffering they've been through, they deserve to be made kings in my eyes, and I wish no one ever stops giving them, even if there is no need.
2) YOU are the one diverting attention from the topic on hand (that is off-topic? :S ) which is the fact that you don't give a damn about Palestinians dying, whether they be children, women or whatever and you don't wish for them to be given aid (seriously?). BTW HAI is extremely active in aiding all those humanitarian Crises, I know because I've seen what they do first hand. But now you're gonna say "you support HAI", NO I support aid reaching those in need, including Palestinians.
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
First of all u were the one that started all this shittalking with terrorism and hamas.. u shud honestly just shut up and screw ur self.. and if u realized this discussion was meant to end many times.. not just by us.. but also by a few other ppl from VN.. but you's ignored and went on with ur bullshitting and kept changing the topic from one thing to another.. i am more than happy to finish this useless argument here if ur willing to stop
LOL so calling Hamas terrorists is 'shittalking'? I'd LOVE to hear your description of what I would call them :D
far out man.. c again ur cuming up with stupid conclusions.. the message of teh paragraph was that chavi started the shittalking in regards to all the terrorism crap out of no where
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to chavi and da rest of the haters!!!
Ive seriously had enough of ur shit.. honestly you've pushed things too far..its pointless arguing with u stubborn ppl with biased views.. i know u hate muslims.. but guess wat we dnt give damn.. ur radical notions about islam and muslims mean shit to us.. so i suggest u should go get a life!
Just because we are against terrorism we hate muslims?
do u really wish to see the real terrorists.. heres u go..
WTF do you mean by that? You saying HAMAS are not terrorists?
i havent even mentioned hamas at all.. y do u cum to irrelevant conclusions..
You don't need to mention Hamas. What you implied was pretty clear.
yeh an this is how misunderstandings arise.. by u ppl cuming up with conclusions like that and causing more arguments.. can u plz concentrate on teh more important things that are in the article.. you go on about muslims being terrorists when ur own ppl are torturing innnocent kids.. and yet u choose to ignore that fact
they obviously don't see how they are hypocrites ...
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i did except you obviously can't comprehend the points im trying to make
u were right .. it is like were communicating with brick wall.. u tell them something and all they would do is pick out an irrelevant part and make a fuss about it.. they ignore the main content of what we say
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well if this is not hatred then i am not sure wat is
*sigh* should I point it out to you?
That is the worst rebuttal I've seen all day... mate get a grip, what are you scared? instead of being the delusional little bitch you are * wake up* LOL mutual feeling :)
r u by any chance a jew.. coz den everything will make sense
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VXXqlWD3LI
LOL....!! a must see
seriously u ppl need a life.. go mind ur own business... Ur statements.. are all based on wat da media says ... ur misunderstandings about islam and all.. If ur not hundred percent certain of anything dont just blabber it out.. plus the media is definately not a gud source to find out reality... Any one can make up bullshit ..
and no im not taking part in this debate. Were all a bunch of kids behind our computer screens acting it tough. The internet is made full of bs, i mean you can probably link me to Hamas aswell .. we both have the letters m and a ? that would probably be enough evidence true?
Quit yappin about insignificant information, let the real people deal with it. What we say here isn't going to change anything. VCE is the real terrorist, the real hamas. =="
And this is just the first few pages. Need I go on, or will you take a long hard look in the mirror?
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All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
So if I am against the Israel regime and their treatment of Palestinian civilians I am a terrorist sympathizer? Fascinating.
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For some reason I had an inkling that this discussion on Muslim VCE students accepting laptops from an NGO with links to Hamas would end up not only legitimizing the said NGO (HAI), but legitimizing HAMAS and terrorism as well.
All this, and without an inkling of evidence or a properly strung argument. It just seems inevitable that terrorist sympathizers try to escape the blame by riding the bandwagon of anti-Israel vitriol.
All those non-Muslims who are going along with their arguments - you are unwittingly supporting and legitimizing those who would like to see you dead.
First of all u were the one that started all this shittalking with terrorism and hamas.. u shud honestly just shut up and screw ur self.. and if u realized this discussion was meant to end many times.. not just by us.. but also by a few other ppl from VN.. but you's ignored and went on with ur bullshitting and kept changing the topic from one thing to another.. i am more than happy to finish this useless argument here if ur willing to stop
LOL so calling Hamas terrorists is 'shittalking'? I'd LOVE to hear your description of what I would call them :D
far out man.. c again ur cuming up with stupid conclusions.. the message of teh paragraph was that chavi started the shittalking in regards to all the terrorism crap out of no where
No offence, but when everyone is making "stupid conclusions" from what you type, its more often than not your fault for not knowing how to convey the message. Noones making "stupid conclusions", they are just drawing from what you are saying.
I'd suggest investing some time in learning to communicate.
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Enough.
Start a new thread once you have learned to sustain a proper debate without resorting to immature, irrelevant insults and racist, bigoted rants.
I can't believe that this vitriol has come from supposedly intelligent, soon-to-be legal adults.
Locked.
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Thank you ninwa.
This thread has ran its course, and is now in a stage of constant strawman and ad hominem. Part of me thinks the moderation team need to have less tolerance towards bigotry in the future.
Also, everyone who have posted in this thread, please take note:
http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/
(sarcasm intended)
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Update:
Measures have been taken to ensure this does not happen again. Ban-hammer has been wielded for this rare occasion, I feel it is necessary to report that offenders from both sides have been given temp-bans.