ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => Lifestyle and Entertainment => General Discussion Boards => Music => Topic started by: vexx on November 11, 2010, 01:01:49 am
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Hi,
I normally have taught myself by memorising the finger patterns of someone playing, since its too hard for me to read music - haven't really tried much though...
BUT i can't use my method for some of the quite advanced stuff that i want to learn, so i have tried to read music, but i find it so hard to do - like i try and figure out a note by using 'E G B D F' for example and then find it on the keyboard.. sometimes i can work out the next because its close to the other, but then i have to stop and make sure the right flat/sharp haha. So im super slow! especially having to do each hand seperately before memorising the notes/pattern and then working out how to play together ><
haven't done too much practice, but holidays coming up and want to sight reading!!! then be able to attempt anything i choose (that would be incredible)
yep, so how can i learn to do this? whats best and fastest way? teacher?program? etc? id prefer not a teacher, but if thats the best way??
my method only worked for pieces like clair de lune which is rather easy to do for some reason. but for others quite hard and gave up cos too slow :(
thank youuu VN musicians :smitten:
my dream would be to play ballade no.1 in gminor (arghh)! thinking i need to be able to read for that one ;) and it may take a long time LOL
Vexx!
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I'm working on the Ballade atm, I'll teach you :D (jk I hate teaching)
I don't really think a teacher can teach sight-reading. I think it's just a matter of practice... lots and lots of practice... I started learning piano when I was 4 and couldn't sight-read quickly until I was about 14... sorry to say :P
Get some easy pieces and work your way up the difficulty level. You just need to get your mind used to the process of reading new music. For me it's become an intuitive thing since I've done it so much. It's hard to explain how I sight-read. I guess it's sort of pattern recognition; since I've played piano for so many years most chord/note progressions are not new to me. So reading music is sort of like reading a picture...
Also I don't know if this will help you but whenever I need to learn a piece really quickly I listen to recordings of it over and over again so that I'm partially sight-reading and partially playing from memory.
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Agree with Ninwa. It's an acquired skill. If you take AMEB exams, they build you up your skills slowly with sight reading. It takes a lot of experience to be able to play a piece instantly or simply to hear a piece and then replay it by ear on the keyboard [only managed this semi-successfully by Grade 7 piano]. Years of practice, tears and sweat.
After years of piano, I decided to pick up guitar. Needless to say, after hours of practice [months actually], painful chord progression, peeling layers of skin off my finger, watching youtube videos etc. . . I finally performed a couple of songs in front of the school @assembly.
It was a great feeling, staring into the dark faces of the audience, and hearing the applause build up from the back rows - and the best motivation to continue!!
Good luck - and persevere.
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Yeah it's just comes with practise, when I was young I couldn't even read music and just memorised where the keys were, after several years (like around the same age as ninwa) I could sight read much faster and fluently.
However I think some people naturally sight-read well, like /0 is insane at sight-reading, give him any piece and a couple of tries and he could play it so you can hear the general melody lol
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The Ballade No 1 is really good! I fail at sight-reading as well, so I skipped from 6th grade to AMus (ie. no exams in between). :P
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Yeah it's just comes with practise, when I was young I couldn't even read music and just memorised where the keys were, after several years (like around the same age as ninwa) I could sight read much faster and fluently.
However I think some people naturally sight-read well, like /0 is insane at sight-reading, give him any piece and a couple of tries and he could play it so you can hear the general melody lol
You have 10 times more posts than me :)
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give him any piece and a couple of tries and he could play it so you can hear the general melody lol
That's definitely possible with a few years' solid practice
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^ thanks for the replies.
so basically i should just get easy music and try and play it...
is it basically what im doing with working out each note and then finding it on the keyboard with each hand separately? eek
whats some good pieces to learn sight-reading to? should i try new ones everyday or work with pieces im familar with until perfect? how long (estimate) should it take me to get quite good at sight reading given i do some practice each day?
ps, ninwa i got excited when i first read you'll teach me it.. :( how are you finding it..? i am going to struggle so bad lawlss
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It's not too bad but that's cos I've been working at it on and off since I was like 15 :P
Some good pieces to start off with might be like those books of popular music transcribed for piano - they're generally not too hard, and the melodies are well-known
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I used to do a shit load of theory work. Helped me alot
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I used to do a shit load of theory work. Helped me alot
a million karma points to you for citing the best blog ever
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Hahahaha. Np <3
Allie is the most adorable and hilarious thing ever
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I'm not sure if this will help, as I've been told what I do is not normal, but when I see music, I hear it, as it should sound, in my head. (obviously there are limits to that but yeah.)
Then, when I actually play it, I roughly know what it sounds like, and then the rest is down to sight-reading... and faking :P
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I'm not sure if this will help, as I've been told what I do is not normal, but when I see music, I hear it, as it should sound, in my head. (obviously there are limits to that but yeah.)
Then, when I actually play it, I roughly know what it sounds like, and then the rest is down to sight-reading... and faking :P
two 3/4 in year 10, but only one 3/4 in year 11. . . how unique
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That's called perfect pitch
Y'know what's weird? When I get to the higher octaves, C and G, and E and B begin sounding the same to me.
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I'm not sure if this will help, as I've been told what I do is not normal, but when I see music, I hear it, as it should sound, in my head. (obviously there are limits to that but yeah.)
Then, when I actually play it, I roughly know what it sounds like, and then the rest is down to sight-reading... and faking :P
two 3/4 in year 10, but only one 3/4 in year 11. . . how unique
^^" We're only allowed one 3/4 in Year 11, unless the second is methods.... but I'm auditing uni maths next year :)
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Sight reading LH was always a bit tedious for me. I just imagined the LH stave the 'transposed right hand'. I guess, like all things, it takes practice to memorise which note is which.
There are many techniques with which you can attempt to approach sight reading.
1. Do the left hand until bar 4-5, then do the right hand to the same spot and later put it together. It is integral to be able to master this technique before attempting both hands.
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That's called perfect pitch
Y'know what's weird? When I get to the higher octaves, C and G, and E and B begin sounding the same to me.
Yes, I know. It can be a pain sometimes.
Really? How high in the higher octaves?
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That's called perfect pitch
Y'know what's weird? When I get to the higher octaves, C and G, and E and B begin sounding the same to me.
Yes, I know. It can be a pain sometimes.
What does music look in your mind? For me, each is associated with a colour and that's how I identify notes.
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That's called perfect pitch
Y'know what's weird? When I get to the higher octaves, C and G, and E and B begin sounding the same to me.
Yes, I know. It can be a pain sometimes.
What does music look in your mind? For me, each is associated with a colour and that's how I identify notes.
It doesn't look like anything, I just hear it. :/ I just .. identify it by its pitch.
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That's called perfect pitch
Y'know what's weird? When I get to the higher octaves, C and G, and E and B begin sounding the same to me.
Yes, I know. It can be a pain sometimes.
What does music look in your mind? For me, each is associated with a colour and that's how I identify notes.
I never thought of it in that way. I guess that's a good approach too. I'm more of a pitch person, myself.
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That's called perfect pitch
Y'know what's weird? When I get to the higher octaves, C and G, and E and B begin sounding the same to me.
Yes, I know. It can be a pain sometimes.
What does music look in your mind? For me, each is associated with a colour and that's how I identify notes.
I'm curious as how it would work, since my mind doesn't work that way.
Is it something that you've acquired over time, or have you always done that? I do recall at some point last year or the year before, I was flicking through a music magazine and I recall reading about someone who also saw notes as colours, and different pitchings of a note would be a different shade or something like that. It was an odd form of perfect pitch.
Anyway, I think he was born being able to do that.
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Solfege. A 'C' note would sound like 'Do' to me. That's why I can sometimes confuse it with G (So). Likewise with E (Me) and B (Ti). So really, if I listen to a piece, it sounds like a conversation to me.
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Solfege. A 'C' note would sound like 'Do' to me. That's why I can sometimes confuse it with G (So). Likewise with E (Me) and B (Ti). So really, if I listen to a piece, it sounds like a conversation to me.
Ahh I see. I think I kind of do the same, but only because that was how I was taught the notes when I first started learning. To me, there is a clear distinction between all the notes.
Do you ever use movable do solfege? Or just the fixed do?
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Fixed. Then I put random accents to signify the pitch or some shit. I think that's why I can't sing to save my life
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Solfege. A 'C' note would sound like 'Do' to me. That's why I can sometimes confuse it with G (So). Likewise with E (Me) and B (Ti). So really, if I listen to a piece, it sounds like a conversation to me.
That do, re, mi never worked for me! Just because I thought I would be smart and say to myself "well do can be 'D' since it is just a syllable". Well, that did not really help me.
But I have my standard or 'zero' at middle 'C' and then go from there.
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Fixed. Then I put random accents to signify the pitch or some shit. I think that's why I can't sing to save my life
haha okay :) You probably sing better than you think you can ;)
Ever tried using the movable do solfege? My choir teacher uses it all the time to teach people to sing awkward interval jumps (which are not so awkward if you think of it in another key)
Solfege. A 'C' note would sound like 'Do' to me. That's why I can sometimes confuse it with G (So). Likewise with E (Me) and B (Ti). So really, if I listen to a piece, it sounds like a conversation to me.
That do, re, mi never worked for me! Just because I thought I would be smart and say to myself "well do can be 'D' since it is just a syllable". Well, that did not really help me.
But I have my standard or 'zero' at middle 'C' and then go from there.
hmmm. So if you were say, singing something, would you sing a C and then work out the starting note from there, or something?
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Yeah, perfect pitch makes melodic aural easy for me, but I tend to get owned by the rhythmic dictation.
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I'm curious as how it would work, since my mind doesn't work that way.
Is it something that you've acquired over time, or have you always done that? I do recall at some point last year or the year before, I was flicking through a music magazine and I recall reading about someone who also saw notes as colours, and different pitchings of a note would be a different shade or something like that. It was an odd form of perfect pitch.
Anyway, I think he was born being able to do that.
Oh... I honestly thought all perfect pitch was something like that.
It's always been like that for me, though interestingly, the colours for each note have changed subtly over time.
When I did VCE music melodic dictation was just a matter of transcribing colours into notes. I also have different colours for different chords. I suppose it also relates to feelings. A diminished triad is a threatening sort of red, for example, because I guess it sounds very ominous. Different inversions are different shades of the same colour.
Yeah like all perfect pitch, you're born with it.
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Fixed. Then I put random accents to signify the pitch or some shit. I think that's why I can't sing to save my life
haha okay :) You probably sing better than you think you can ;)
Ever tried using the movable do solfege? My choir teacher uses it all the time to teach people to sing awkward interval jumps (which are not so awkward if you think of it in another key)
Solfege. A 'C' note would sound like 'Do' to me. That's why I can sometimes confuse it with G (So). Likewise with E (Me) and B (Ti). So really, if I listen to a piece, it sounds like a conversation to me.
That do, re, mi never worked for me! Just because I thought I would be smart and say to myself "well do can be 'D' since it is just a syllable". Well, that did not really help me.
But I have my standard or 'zero' at middle 'C' and then go from there.
hmmm. So if you were say, singing something, would you sing a C and then work out the starting note from there, or something?
Initially, yes - when I started out. Then I remembered different notes after practice. I wasn't really born with music ability, it's just perseverence.
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I'm curious as how it would work, since my mind doesn't work that way.
Is it something that you've acquired over time, or have you always done that? I do recall at some point last year or the year before, I was flicking through a music magazine and I recall reading about someone who also saw notes as colours, and different pitchings of a note would be a different shade or something like that. It was an odd form of perfect pitch.
Anyway, I think he was born being able to do that.
Oh... I honestly thought all perfect pitch was something like that.
It's always been like that for me, though interestingly, the colours for each note have changed subtly over time.
When I did VCE music melodic dictation was just a matter of transcribing colours into notes. I also have different colours for different chords. I suppose it also relates to feelings. A diminished triad is a threatening sort of red, for example, because I guess it sounds very ominous. Different inversions are different shades of the same colour.
Yeah like all perfect pitch, you're born with it.
Oh? Why do you think that is?
Yeah, that makes sense. For me, I listen to the notes and transcribe it. With chords, I have to listen to all the notes and write it out. What's VCE Music like?
Wow.
Fixed. Then I put random accents to signify the pitch or some shit. I think that's why I can't sing to save my life
haha okay :) You probably sing better than you think you can ;)
Ever tried using the movable do solfege? My choir teacher uses it all the time to teach people to sing awkward interval jumps (which are not so awkward if you think of it in another key)
Solfege. A 'C' note would sound like 'Do' to me. That's why I can sometimes confuse it with G (So). Likewise with E (Me) and B (Ti). So really, if I listen to a piece, it sounds like a conversation to me.
That do, re, mi never worked for me! Just because I thought I would be smart and say to myself "well do can be 'D' since it is just a syllable". Well, that did not really help me.
But I have my standard or 'zero' at middle 'C' and then go from there.
hmmm. So if you were say, singing something, would you sing a C and then work out the starting note from there, or something?
Initially, yes - when I started out. Then I remembered different notes after practice. I wasn't really born with music ability, it's just perseverence.
Ahh yes, of course :)
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Thanks for replies peoplesssssssss.
I bought Chopin Sheet Music for Piano as well as the Beethoven one, they have about 40 pieces each ranging from easy to advanced, i guess i'll just work through that..
Should i perfect the easy ones first? Or can i jump around to target some of the 'funner' pieces if i chose?
Is perfect pitch really helpful for sight-reading? How so..?
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Thanks for replies peoplesssssssss.
I bought Chopin Sheet Music for Piano as well as the Beethoven one, they have about 40 pieces each ranging from easy to advanced, i guess i'll just work through that..
Should i perfect the easy ones first? Or can i jump around to target some of the 'funner' pieces if i chose?
Is perfect pitch really helpful for sight-reading? How so..?
I would probably just do whatever you want to do. If you make yourself do stuff you don't want to do, you'll lose interest. I certainly did when I was actually learning under a teacher. It's been nearly 2 years since I stopped learning (piano anyway), and I never thought I would come back to it, but I have and it's great (and I get to do whatever the hell I want to do ;))
Well, perfect-pitch is something you're either born with, or you're not. (although, you can probably acquire something close to it through many many years of practice). I personally find it helpful when I'm starting to learn something new, because I can hear what I'm going to play in my head, before I play it, so I have a general idea of what the piece sounds. However, I do realise that most people don't actually have this luxury, and in that case, you just gotta knuckle down and do the hard work, the more sight-reading you do, the better you get at it :)
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@smileygirl, why do I think what is? If you mean thinking all pp was like that, I haven't actually met many people with it and the ones I do know, it's not generally a topic of conversation :P
If you mean changing colours, well, it's associated with emotions so I guess maturing and having a great teacher who taught me to "feel" the music better did that.
@vexx do the fun pieces duh!! :P
PP can help me mostly cos I know what the notes should sound like off the paper so I know immediately when something is wrong. But other than that, you're not particularly disadvantaged :)
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@smileygirl, why do I think what is? If you mean thinking all pp was like that, I haven't actually met many people with it and the ones I do know, it's not generally a topic of conversation :P
If you mean changing colours, well, it's associated with emotions so I guess maturing and having a great teacher who taught me to "feel" the music better did that.
@vexx do the fun pieces duh!! :P
PP can help me mostly cos I know what the notes should sound like off the paper so I know immediately when something is wrong. But other than that, you're not particularly disadvantaged :)
The colours changing I mean :)
Off-topic (sorry), but I'm curious to see, does anyone here (with perfect pitch) play another (transposing) instrument? If you do, how do you find that?
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okkkk thanks peoples.
i will stick to easier pieces that are fun, i tried op.69 no.1 last night (a chopin waltz) and i did the first half of page one of right hand pretty slowly but wasn't too bad (never heard this piece before). i think i'll stick around grade 7 pieces then, and do nocturne in g minor as one of them soon.. i'll wait a little long before i try the ballade ;)
good to know im not too disadvantaged then, i have an okay 'pitch' (no where near perfect), but i can identify probably half of the notes since i remember keys like from the start of fur elise, clair de lune and such, so i can mentally play them to remember the keys.. im hoping to improve as i learn more pieces, though i may never be perfect pitch, just curious of this being anyway helpful.
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Off-topic (sorry), but I'm curious to see, does anyone here (with perfect pitch) play another (transposing) instrument? If you do, how do you find that?
I had to read the viola part in high school a few times because it seems nobody plays viola... couldn't do it and had to write it out again in treble clef. Screws with my mind too much! Have you?
okkkk thanks peoples.
i will stick to easier pieces that are fun, i tried op.69 no.1 last night (a chopin waltz) and i did the first half of page one of right hand pretty slowly but wasn't too bad (never heard this piece before). i think i'll stick around grade 7 pieces then, and do nocturne in g minor as one of them soon.. i'll wait a little long before i try the ballade ;)
good to know im not too disadvantaged then, i have an okay 'pitch' (no where near perfect), but i can identify probably half of the notes since i remember keys like from the start of fur elise, clair de lune and such, so i can mentally play them to remember the keys.. im hoping to improve as i learn more pieces, though i may never be perfect pitch, just curious of this being anyway helpful.
Why do you like the Ballade so much btw? :P
Yeah a very good relative pitch can be developed though I don't think you can teach yourself perfect pitch. I know someone who will always be able to identify a Bb and will work out the note from there, so it's pretty much like perfect pitch, just with a bit more work.
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Off-topic (sorry), but I'm curious to see, does anyone here (with perfect pitch) play another (transposing) instrument? If you do, how do you find that?
I had to read the viola part in high school a few times because it seems nobody plays viola... couldn't do it and had to write it out again in treble clef. Screws with my mind too much! Have you?
haha yes, the viola is a rather uncommon instrument. But it uses a completely different clef, I think you'd be fine if you got used to reading it.
But yeah, I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who feels that way :P (about it screwing with your mind)
Clarinet is my main instrument since I stopped learning piano. It's okay because I started in about Year 5 and I got used to thinking in B flat. Generally, when I read music written for clarinet, I hear it as it would sound in concert pitch -- but then for some pieces, in orchestra, or for exams and such (particularly AMus and LMus, you have to use an A clarinet for some pieces), I have to play on the A clarinet and it messed with my mind coz what I was playing didn't sound like what I was hearing in my head! Then I'd try and transpose it in my head so that it would sound right (in my head), but then I'd end up playing the wrong notes etc.
Trippy. ;)
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Off-topic (sorry), but I'm curious to see, does anyone here (with perfect pitch) play another (transposing) instrument? If you do, how do you find that?
I had to read the viola part in high school a few times because it seems nobody plays viola... couldn't do it and had to write it out again in treble clef. Screws with my mind too much! Have you?
okkkk thanks peoples.
i will stick to easier pieces that are fun, i tried op.69 no.1 last night (a chopin waltz) and i did the first half of page one of right hand pretty slowly but wasn't too bad (never heard this piece before). i think i'll stick around grade 7 pieces then, and do nocturne in g minor as one of them soon.. i'll wait a little long before i try the ballade ;)
good to know im not too disadvantaged then, i have an okay 'pitch' (no where near perfect), but i can identify probably half of the notes since i remember keys like from the start of fur elise, clair de lune and such, so i can mentally play them to remember the keys.. im hoping to improve as i learn more pieces, though i may never be perfect pitch, just curious of this being anyway helpful.
Why do you like the Ballade so much btw? :P
Yeah a very good relative pitch can be developed though I don't think you can teach yourself perfect pitch. I know someone who will always be able to identify a Bb and will work out the note from there, so it's pretty much like perfect pitch, just with a bit more work.
Ballads are soft on the ears. Then again my all time favourite has to be the Fantasie Impromtu performed by Yundi Li.
I listened to that non-stop between my exams. I still do.
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ninwa- i'm not sure, but i've been obsessed for years with that ballade, i find it so beautiful and moving.. and i literally squirm at the brilliant last 2 minutes - its just incredible!
caroyln- oh my, fantasie is one of my favourites as well (i adore chopin ahah), im obsessed with Valentina Igoshina's performance of it, as well as everything else she plays.. (not to mention she is very attractive :p )
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haha yes, the viola is a rather uncommon instrument. But it uses a completely different clef, I think you'd be fine if you got used to reading it.
But yeah, I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one who feels that way :P (about it screwing with your mind)
Clarinet is my main instrument since I stopped learning piano. It's okay because I started in about Year 5 and I got used to thinking in B flat. Generally, when I read music written for clarinet, I hear it as it would sound in concert pitch -- but then for some pieces, in orchestra, or for exams and such (particularly AMus and LMus, you have to use an A clarinet for some pieces), I have to play on the A clarinet and it messed with my mind coz what I was playing didn't sound like what I was hearing in my head! Then I'd try and transpose it in my head so that it would sound right (in my head), but then I'd end up playing the wrong notes etc.
Trippy. ;)
Bahaha. I used to play oboe and try to play the clarinet parts in band and used to think "I bet none of them are afflicted with perfect pitch" :P so, wow, I'm impressed.
Ballads are soft on the ears. Then again my all time favourite has to be the Fantasie Impromtu performed by Yundi Li.
I listened to that non-stop between my exams. I still do.
Hmm, soft on the ears... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F63MSrdYx5w listen from about 8:00 :P
Yundi Li is amazing.
ninwa- i'm not sure, but i've been obsessed for years with that ballade, i find it so beautiful and moving.. and i literally squirm at the brilliant last 2 minutes - its just incredible!
caroyln- oh my, fantasie is one of my favourites as well (i adore chopin ahah), im obsessed with Valentina Igoshina's performance of it, as well as everything else she plays.. (not to mention she is very attractive :p )
Oh I totally agree. I just wish my hands were bigger... they hurt like hell every time after that last bit.
Valentina Lisitsa is also quite attractive (and absolutely amazing). :P
Have any of you heard of Nobuyuki Tsujii? Blind from birth. Won the 2009 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition at the age of 20. Look him up on Wikipedia/Youtube. Watching him play makes me teary every time.
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wooooowwwwwww Nobuyuki Tsujii is incredible! im watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDtT5sSu5VQ now. that's so inspiring that he hasn't been affected by his blindness :)
haha that last bit seems impossible for me right now, i highly doubt i'll get to that speed for a long time. i can imagine how sore your hands would get though heh.
oh and for my self-learning as i came across a book called "The elements of piano technique" by Ernest Hutcheson which is available online free http://www.archive.org/details/elementsofpianot00hutcuoft from early 1900s.
would this be good to go through at present? or unneeded?
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Have any of you heard of Nobuyuki Tsujii? Blind from birth. Won the 2009 Van Cliburn International Piano Competition at the age of 20. Look him up on Wikipedia/Youtube. Watching him play makes me teary every time.
Wow. Just wow. He is simply amazing!
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ninwa- i'm not sure, but i've been obsessed for years with that ballade, i find it so beautiful and moving.. and i literally squirm at the brilliant last 2 minutes - its just incredible!
Agreed :) And I love the Barcarolle too!