ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: Odette on December 19, 2007, 06:06:04 pm
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Ok I'm stuck, I'm not sure as to whether or not I should repeat year 12, any advice would be appreciated =)
Thanks in advance
I'm not sure if I'll get any uni offers because my ENTER is the fringe ENTER for most of the courses I've applied for... and they aren't really the courses I was hoping to get into either... :( :-[
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Don't. There are plenty of other pathways into getting the course you want in the end. I personally would not have the motivation to repeat. Besides, it seems like such a waste of a year when you could try considering different options.
Have you considered TAFE? Are there any courses that appeal to you?
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no one can advise you without even knowing what your enter is!! its highly unlike to even be that bad considering your scores from previous years, so im going to say no, but seriously what kind of advice do you expect when none of us have a clue what you got!
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fuck no. honestly, don't waste your time, i mean, what course do you want to do?
haven't you listened to those terrible open day seminars :D there's a million ways to get into the same course, "pathways"
it's probably only worth it if you got lower than 50, even then, i definitely wouldn't
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no one can advise you without even knowing what your enter is!! its highly unlike to even be that bad considering your scores from previous years, so im going to say no, but seriously what kind of advice do you expect when none of us have a clue what you got!
Im sorry to try and draw it out of you but i agree with mel. If we dont have a clue how you went our ability to help you through providing advice is hindered. If you wanted you could give us a range eg. 60-70 etc. No one here is gonna mock you if u did badly we all know someone who didnt get into their courses or wateva so we are aware its a reality that "shit happens"
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Alright the range is 65-75 ... does that help?
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Yes, it does. I would if I were you. It is an extra year, but if you've only got 65-75, you don't have much room to move in. I think you can do better, you just need more supportive parents and a better crack at it. I say go for it. :)
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Yes, it does. I would if I were you. It is an extra year, but if you've only got 65-75, you don't have much room to move in. I think you can do better, you just need more supportive parents and a better crack at it. I say go for it. :)
Yeah I know I can do better if I repeat year 12, especially somewhere else... My parents said I should wait and see if I get any offers first... but that might be too late :( so I don't know what to do...
My parents also mentioned that if I ended up repeating year 12 I would need to pay for it... so it'll mean that I'll need to work.. which should be alright I think :)
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Yeah, if you decide to repeat definately do it at another school. Maybe you should do a first year arts degree, try to excel in that and then apply to transfer? 65-75 will be enough to get you in to arts at monash i think.
a girl at my school this year repeated year 12 after getting 98.0 last year,because it wasnt enough for her to get into dentistry! i cant even describe how hard she worked. I found out today she got 97.4. What a waste of a year.
But I'm sure this wont be the case for you, good luck with whatever you do!
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Thanks but I just don't think I can get into anything that I'm interested in atm... I do want to do teaching but I just don't think I'll get into the right course... should I wait for uni offers or just apply to do year 12 again?
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definately wait! you may be able to get in second or third round. which uni do you want to go to and what was last years score to get in?
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But what if i get no offers? I wont be able to enrol at any school or institution...
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65 - 75 isn't that bad. It's definitely enough to do a degree like arts. To be honest I think VCAA made a mistake in calculating your ENTER, just from the study scores which I know you've already gotten and considering the worst case scenarios for your other subjects. But anyway.
In your position I wouldn't repeat year 12. There is no guarantee that you'll do better (although you probably would in all likelihood because you seem to be very intelligent and hard-working) and I think the year would be much more productively spent studying the 1st year of a uni course - which can then give you credit to transfer into the course you want in 2009.
However tbh I don't know much about how transferring between unis etc works - can someone else confirm?
Best of luck with whatever you choose to do :)
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Also:
But what if i get no offers? I wont be able to enrol at any school or institution...
Put in some courses which you know you would most likely get into with your ENTER. Change of preference doesn't close til the 24th :)
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definately wait! you may be able to get in second or third round.
exactly! there's still hope
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Thanks Nina =)
It's just the way I see it is that if I did year 12 again I know I'd get a higher ENTER... and if I did one year of some course I might be able to transfer.. however most likely I would end up starting from the beginning anyway... So I'll end up in the same position regardless of which path I decide to take :) ...I just want to know which would be better :)
Oh and I already changed my preferences lol to ones which I might get into and some which I can get into easily; however I'm not keen on getting into
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You won't be in the same position. Unless I'm mistaken, if you take the uni path, you'll end up with credits toward the course that you want to transfer into, which means that you might be able to complete your degree in a shorter time than specified.
Again I'm not really sure how it all works so you should probably call up the unis and ask ...
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pal how is it possible to get that kind of score with your previous years scores? didnt you get 45 for arabic, 42 for methods, potential another one i cant remember? and then 40 for bus man.. i dont get it! are you sure vcaa didnt make a mistake?
either way, you can definitely get into an arts degree with that, what about arts at deakin, that looks like a pretty reasonable course or arts at la trobe?
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Hey thats not a bad score. You are higher than the state avg which is like low 60s!!. My mate got 69 and hes off to uni next year doing some aviation degree i think. I dont know enough about transferring after a year of study at uni/tafe etc but i would look into that. I think thats your best go. Apparently something like 1 in 4 people drop out of their course they chose anyway so you might end up liking one you didnt originally opt for. Best of luck mate.
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Yeah I think they made a mistake >.< Anyways lol back on topic um yeah I might take a look at arts at deakin, since it's closer than la trobe :)
I just don't want to waste my time in a course I don't want to do :(
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i wonder if you were to repeat yr 11 or 12, would it disadvantage you in terms of university's giving you an offer or something like that?
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i wonder if you were to repeat yr 11 or 12, would it disadvantage you in terms of university's giving you an offer or something like that?
That's what I was thinking about too...
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well if you think vcaa made a mistake call them up!! NOW!! dont just let it slip, seriously i dont think its possible to get that score. i would be onto it straaaight away.
but if not, then yeh deakin genuinely looks good! give it a try!
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im sure it doesnt.
does anybody know wether or not repeat yr 11 or 12 would disadvantage you from getting a uni offer? you should def. contact the VCAA, it might have been a big mistake
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I know it's hard for people around here to believe, but 65-75 is a good score. I know people this year who have gotten ENTERs under 30, somebody even got an ENTER lower than 10. It's no reason to repeat.
Reassess your options and look through the VTAC guide for courses that may interest you which also have a realistic entry score (if it's a bit high, still apply - lots of people get into courses on the fringe). Think about the kinds of subjects you could do in the course. I agree that a Bachelor of Arts would be good, you'd quite easily get into Arts at Victoria Uni. Otherwise, you can apply for business courses at TAFE.
I have my VTAC guide open right now, and there are actually a heap of courses you can apply for! Try to imagine yourself in a certain degree program, see if you could get used to the idea, consider that it's likely that you'll do well in any uni course and be able to transfer into another. Uni life is also much better than how full on VCE is. Depending on your degree, you may only be at uni for 4 days a week. I would never ever ever go through the tedium of VCE again, but obviously it's your choice.
And I second that if they did make a mistake, you really need to do something about it ASAP. Mistakes happen and you can appeal (they just like you to think that you can't). All sorts of things go wrong. In the very least, it will give you peace of mind.
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I spoke to my vce coordinator about appealing and she said not to >.< ... they may look at it but they wont do anything about it... its weird though because I didn't think I would get that low :(
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as if you wouldnt appeal! odette i dont get it. are those scores i wrote above the right ones for what you got in 05 and 06? cos if so, howww is 65 - 75 possible.
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Have you tried entering your raw scores into Daniel's ENTER calculator, and seeing what comes up?
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Nope lol ... maybe i should try
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That way you could distinguish whether it was scaled incorrectly.
Obviously the calculator uses last years scaling report and not this year, so it won't be completely accurate. This way you can determine if VTAC made an error calculating your ENTER (unlikely).
What makes you think they made a mistake at all?
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pal how is it possible to get that kind of score with your previous years scores? didnt you get 45 for arabic, 42 for methods, potential another one i cant remember? and then 40 for bus man.. i dont get it! are you sure vcaa didnt make a mistake?
Indeed with methods 42, arabic 45, business 40, and english 20 (worst case scenario), Odette's aggregate would already be 145~, which is about 81 .. ?
/confused
appeal asap. I don't even understand how it would add up on the VTAC summary page.
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arabic 45
methods 42
bus man 40
eng 10
gives you about 75. so unless you got 10 in english and failed all your other subjects..
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NO. Do NOT repeat Year 12, it's a fatal mistake a few undertake. Go into a course you have interest in, rape it and transfer. I have a friend who got around 48 for their ENTER, went into a TAFE course and the year after transferred into Commerce/Law at Melbourne University.
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According to Daniels ENTER Calc I'd get about 88 :S
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then go and appeal. what was your aggregate? fuck if your enters wrong you really need to do something about it. is your aggregate added up correctly? and then just a wrong enter, or is your aggregate wrong?
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Aggregate is also wrong >.<
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Aggregate is also wrong >.<
PM me your individual subject Raw scores.
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gar well what are you dooinnggg, APPEAL!! if they've made a mistake, they're not going to NOT fix it! that would just be fucked
what were your study scores? do you think they're correct or not? are your sac marks totally off? or pm someone who will work it out, cos this just sounds screwed up
when you saw your careers counsellor did you show them your individual study scores and aggregate, or did you just go in saying, i got a worse enter than i wanted, what are my options
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Aggregate is also wrong >.<
PM me your individual subject Raw scores.
Um nah it's ok ...
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Odette you need to ring them ASAP. That is bizarre.
My friend got a 30 for history and got A+'s in SACs all year. They recorded her exam mark as C.
She was blown away by how ridiculous it seemed so she rang them up and sure enough- she had achieved A+ on the exam and they had entered the result incorrectly. Her study score went from 30 to 45.8.. misakes do happen Odette :) Please ring them.
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Add up the Aggregate calculation column at VTAC ENTER, and compare it with Your 2007 aggregate is:.
Are they different? If yes, appeal. If not, you aren't telling us everything.
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gar well what are you dooinnggg, APPEAL!! if they've made a mistake, they're not going to NOT fix it! that would just be fucked
what were your study scores? do you think they're correct or not? are your sac marks totally off? or pm someone who will work it out, cos this just sounds screwed up
when you saw your careers counsellor did you show them your individual study scores and aggregate, or did you just go in saying, i got a worse enter than i wanted, what are my options
Lol nah I gave her a copy of my results and she was like :S what the...
It seems weird because the scores on the paper were correct but the enter and aggregate were wrong :(
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Add up the Aggregate calculation column at VTAC ENTER, and compare it with Your 2007 aggregate is:.
Are they different? If yes, appeal. If not, you aren't telling us everything.
The link it wrong i think :S lol
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I used Daniels Enter Calc and I even used the scaling report for 2007 and calculated it manually... I got about ~88... which is way different to something around the 70 mark ... :S
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Aggregate is also wrong >.<
PM me your individual subject Raw scores.
Um nah it's ok ...
If you're going to ask for help on these forums, i think we at least have the right to know your marks before giving you advice..
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I used Daniels Enter Calc and I even used the scaling report for 2007 and calculated it manually... I got about ~88... which is way different to something around the 70 mark ... :S
Well, I would contact VTAC.
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we're not going to judge you based on whatever results you received, no one is here to laugh or mock you or whatever.
We are just trying to help.
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they screwed up my methods mark last year, but not because of the weighting thing. i examined the script and they didn't give me full marks for a question that i did completely right. i got an extra two marks and went from 43 to 44. those vcaa bastards do make mistakes, as we saw last year.
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I don't want to disclose my scores, I'll just ring them up tomorrow and talk to them about it :) hope all goes well
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we're not going to judge you based on whatever results you received, no one is here to laugh or mock you or whatever.
We are just trying to help.
Exactly.
And rustic_metal, if that's the reason you signed up, you are really screwed up in the head. And stay the fuck out of it if you're going to come and abuse me when I'm just trying to offer help.
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Thanks for the help everyone, I know you're trying to help Akira and I appreciate it, I just don't want everyone to know my scores :)
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Thanks for the help everyone, I know you're trying to help Akira and I appreciate it, I just don't want everyone to know my scores :)
Fair enough. I hope you heed my warning and you know the dire consequences of repeating Year 12 - you could end up with a lower score than the one you have received. But in any case, talk to your career adviser and the choice you make is yours alone. Don't let your parents or whoever influence what you want to do.
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I don't want to disclose my scores, I'll just ring them up tomorrow and talk to them about it :) hope all goes well
^ yeh no worries! definitely ring them =)
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Good luck for tomorrow Odette! I hope everything works out for you.. You so deserve it....more than most in fact. :)
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Yep I'll keep that in mind and hopefully if all goes well, I wont need to anyway :)
Thanks Nick :)
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Yep I'll keep that in mind and hopefully if all goes well, I wont need to anyway :)
Thanks Nick :)
I don't know if you've done this, but did you re-calculate your aggregate and did it equate correctly to your ENTER?
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Yep I'll keep that in mind and hopefully if all goes well, I wont need to anyway :)
Thanks Nick :)
I don't know if you've done this, but did you re-calculate your aggregate and did it equate correctly to your ENTER?
What do you mean?
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Yep I'll keep that in mind and hopefully if all goes well, I wont need to anyway :)
Thanks Nick :)
I don't know if you've done this, but did you re-calculate your aggregate and did it equate correctly to your ENTER?
What do you mean?
Well...adding up your scaled subject scores, then you get your aggregate, then looking at the 2007 scaling report to see your enter
I don't know if you've done this, but did you re-calculate your aggregate and did it equate correctly to your ENTER?
Admin edit: fixed quote box
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vcaa probably get quite the shitload of people calling about incorrect enters and study scores but this sounds like it is definately wrong! call up! i cant help but think they screwed up my media study score. i didnt lose a mark on sacs all year, and walked out of the exam really confident. even went through the exam with my teacher afterwardsand he assured me what i had written was enough to get my 45+. i got 36, and while i know thats not terrible, i cant help but think i had a bastard examiner or they just screwed it up. anyway enough of my life story im sure a few people are in the same situation maybe i was just crap and didnt know it haha
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Yep I'll keep that in mind and hopefully if all goes well, I wont need to anyway :)
Thanks Nick :)
I don't know if you've done this, but did you re-calculate your aggregate and did it equate correctly to your ENTER?
What do you mean?
Well...adding up your scaled subject scores, then you get your aggregate, then looking at the 2007 scaling report to see your enter
I don't know if you've done this, but did you re-calculate your aggregate and did it equate correctly to your ENTER?
Yes and Ahmad is checking it once again... definitely something wrong >.<
Admin edit: fixed quote box
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Odette, if you aren't going to appeal, at least tell us your student number so that we can.
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If you suspect that something's wrong with your scores, appeal no matter what! There's a chance of a better outcome!
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I calculated her ENTER, and she DEFINITELY did not get in the 65-75 range. I think VCAA did not count one of her subject scores as part of her aggregate (that's missing out on an entire subject!). She should get roughly 88 tomorrow. :)
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I calculated her ENTER, and she DEFINITELY did not get in the 65-75 range. I think VCAA did not count one of her subject scores as part of her aggregate (that's missing out on an entire subject!). She should get roughly 88 tomorrow. :)
Fantastic news!
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Hopefully Odette can breathe a sigh of relief tomorrow...
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Hopefully Odette can breathe a sigh of relief tomorrow...
Without a doubt she will be, i just calculated her aggregate and it equates to just over 88 :)
I'm furious at VCAA for such a major screwup, causing angst and grief. They apologized so profusely last year over the screwup in Methods and Specialist and that only altered the ENTER by a mere fraction, but in this case we're talking about a WHOLE subject being excluded, and that can mean in excess of 25 ENTER points being miscalculated. Disgraceful.
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Hope so lol... even though I was hoping for more, but it's a lot better than what they put down as my enter lol ... Oh and I also found this course I liked :)
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Wow, first appeal of a FSNer :)
I know the VTAC fkd over Odette. Simply not fair, I couldn't comprehend the fact that plenty of 40s and some 30s could yield a 65-75 range :o
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Hope so lol... even though I was hoping for more, but it's a lot better than what they put down as my enter lol ... Oh and I also found this course I liked :)
88 is a good score, it opens up many opportunities in universities
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Hope so lol... even though I was hoping for more, but it's a lot better than what they put down as my enter lol ... Oh and I also found this course I liked :)
88 is a good score, it opens up many opportunities in universities
Yeah I guess so :) and hopefully I'll get into Secondary Teaching (Arts) at Deakin
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Maybe we should start protesting against the VCE. That mistake is absolutely despicable. It also calls into question the validity of all results.
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Maybe we should start protesting against the VCE. That mistake is absolutely despicable. It also calls into question the validity of all results.
No, even though the mistake is despicable, VCAA does maintain and produce results to over 45,000 students, they are bound to make errors, no matter how extreme, and there's nothing we can really do about it.
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Well that's true, but seriously i went through hell these couple of days... especially what my parents did to me ...
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Odette, if your aggregate is wrong, then you definitely have grounds to fix your ENTER score. If it goes up to the high 80s range, that is a great score. 65-75, like Eriny said, isn't bad, but yes, for someone like you, you deserved more.
Your parents are in the wrong, and I have no respect for them in the way they have treated you. In times like these, you have to pull yourself up, and realise that you are serving for your interests, and ignore your parents for the time-being.
If your ENTER changes never come to fruition, I would advise against repeating VCE. Pathways through university are a much more refreshing route, and will relieve you of the nightmares that you have faced this year.
Good luck for tomorrow Odette! I hope everything works out for you.. You so deserve it....more than most in fact. :)
I would resent this because I believe a lot of people deserve their scores.
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Thanks Coblin I'll keep that in mind :)
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Ok... so can someone explain to me how VTAC stuffed up Odette's score?
I think I was the first one to question her score a few days back. It just didn't add up.
Odette... couldn't you see something was wrong?
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Ok... so can someone explain to me how VTAC stuffed up Odette's score?
I think I was the first one to question her score a few days back. It just didn't add up.
Odette... couldn't you see something was wrong?
They didn't take one of her scores into account. So only 3 subjects or something like that were calculated into her aggregate.
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But how couldn't Odette see that on her VTAC statement?
Can you give me an example using values like x,y,z as her scores?
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That is really messed up. I think given the distress you've been under for the past few days, this isn't some easily rectified mistake either.
Hopefully all goes well tomorrow. I envy the wave of relief you'll get when they re-calculate your ENTER... would be a great feeling. Not going to make up for all the disgraceful rubbish that came from your parents (that showed their true colours, didn't it? appalling), but at least you'll know you did perform very well. Good luck with it.
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I would milk out as much out of them as you could to repay for the hurt they caused you lol.
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Odette you need to ring them ASAP. That is bizarre.
My friend got a 30 for history and got A+'s in SACs all year. They recorded her exam mark as C.
She was blown away by how ridiculous it seemed so she rang them up and sure enough- she had achieved A+ on the exam and they had entered the result incorrectly. Her study score went from 30 to 45.8.. misakes do happen Odette :) Please ring them.
I'm in a similar situation with Economics. I achieved A+ in my SACS and I was ranked highly in my class. I got a B+ for the exam which may well be true, but I'm surpised that my GA1 and GA2 grades were B+ and B respectively. Is that enough doubt to appeal, or were my SAC scores heavily moderated by my exam result? I was so sure that I would get a study score in the mid 30s..
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Oh i did see that they added it up wrong... it's just when i spoke to our vce coordinator/career advisor they told me not to do anything about it >.< which really bothered me
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Oh i did see that they added it up wrong... it's just when i spoke to our vce coordinator/career advisor they told me not to do anything about it >.< which really bothered me
That's ridiculous on behalf of your advisor. Please do keep us updated when you ring them. (Btw, when will you be ringing them?)
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Lol tried to ring them this morning but there was an hour wait... so i'll try again later :)
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VTAC fucked up bad. Really bad.
Wst, your SACs were moderated down pretty hard. I don't think there's grounds to complain because of the moderation process. Have a talk to your VCE co-ordinator. With A+ SACs, I'd have expected them to drop to about a low A grade given your exam.
The same works in reverse. I got average A+ SACs in Chinese and they dropped to an A because of my exam. Similarly, my C average SACs in English rose to A when my exam was factored in. So its quite large moderation.
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
We've had this discussion Odette, don't repeat >.<
Tis crazy idea, crazy!! You're crazy! :P *runs around in circles*
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I finally got in contact with someone at vtac, they took a look at the enter and noticed that they forgot to add in one of my subjects :P ... they kept apologising to me though >.< (this conversation went on for about an hour) anyways yeah so they're going to fix up my enter YAY!! lol ...
In conclusion I wont be repeating year 12 !! ;D :D :)
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Oh and I'd like to thank you all for your advice and support, I probably would have never been able to bring myself to call vtac... so for that I am thankful :) :) You're really a great bunch of people, the best of luck to you all in the future ;D
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I knew they had missed an entire subject. I'm glad you're glad Odette. :)
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Good to see this had a happy ending!
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Yeah ^_^ lol ...
I don't think I'll be telling my parents though, after what they put me through they don't deserve to know ..
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Are you gonna tell us how you went now? :D
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Haha :P You all know now ^_^
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congrats on the good news.
That's pretty damn messed up though, by VCAA.
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congrats on the good news.
That's pretty damn messed up though, by VCAA.
Thanks =)
VTAC not VCAA :P ;)
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Are you gonna tell us how you went now? :D
I don't :)
lol
Yeh really happy that you've got it all fixed up now. When you first said how bad you had gone I couldn't believe it because I know from your posts and your prior results that you were really intelligent. So glad things worked out =)
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Oh well it's ~88 =)
Not exactly what i had hoped for but its better than the other one lol ... =)
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Yeah, I'd be quite wary of your parents after that outburst.
Let's see your results now ;)
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CONGRATS ODETTE!
STUPID VCAA
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I don't get the animosity toward VCAA.
VTAC buggered up, not VCAA.
There's a difference.
To you Odette, good job. I hope your new ENTER allows you entry into the course you want to get into.
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Lol ATTN everyone!
VTAC is responsible for the calculation of ENTER's. The VCAA gives VTAC your study scores for calculation. If your study score is buggered its VCAA's fault. If the calculation of your ENTER is buggered it is VTAC's fault.
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oops, my bad
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okay.
good VCAA
bad VTAC
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i wish i could get 88. *sigh*
seems very far away.
oh wells, another year to go
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Thanks everyone but i wont reveal my individual subject scores :P sorry
Anyways does anyone know whether deakin uni is good for teaching? coz i love one of their double degrees lol
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i wish i could get 88. *sigh*
seems very far away.
oh wells, another year to go
It's not hard, trust me :)
If only I didn't stuff up in english >.<
This girl I know aced english ... she got 49 ...ended up with an enter of 99.9+ lol (she goes to Penleigh and Essendon Grammar)
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Oh i did see that they added it up wrong... it's just when i spoke to our vce coordinator/career advisor they told me not to do anything about it >.< which really bothered me
um. wow. you really should do something about that. your career advisor, that is. i know your school is new and everything, but still, that's just not on. you're one of their top students and there was clearly a mistake with your ENTER, and it's their responsibility to ensure that that mistake was rectified. which they didn't do. i don't know, i just think that you (or your parents) should phone up your school and make a formal complaint. it won't take back these last few days for you, but at the very least it should ensure that such a thing doesn't happen to future students at your school, because it really does sound like your advisor wasn't doing their job at all well.
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Yeah I will do that :) asap
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wow odette you are soooo unlucky that this happened
but lucky that you realised it was a mistake and it's all fixed now :)
you can complain to the board of education about your school advisor, i think you probably should
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Nah i wont complain to the board of ed, thats just taking things too far I'll just pay her a friendly visit :D;D
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Lol, I'm so happy for you Odette! Now you're sure to get in! ^_^
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Lol, I'm so happy for you Odette! Now you're sure to get in! ^_^
Lol thanks Jess =)
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Wow Odette that's great news! What a relief for you :)
Have you told your parents yet or are you gonna let them stew? lol
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Not telling them ^_^ lol
Don't want to tell them, after what they put me through
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Fair enough! What they did was disgusting. I hope you feel better now, you deserve to :)
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Thanks ! =)
I'm beginning to wonder if my parents should pull my sister out of my old school... don't think going to our school will help her... but i don't know
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heyyy, thats great news!!!
but that means u wont be coming to VU... :(
LOL! joking, really happy 4 u
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heyyy, thats great news!!!
but that means u wont be coming to VU... :(
LOL! joking, really happy 4 u
Lol aww dw I'll pay you a visit one day :P
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hehe, that means FSN dont have any known failures =P lol that's awesome!
and daniel should feel proud at having beaten yet another person, lool
re: double degree @ deakin, i have a couple friends who are studying there, both on double degree commerce/law and they said the classes over there are awesome, even tho deakin dont have the best reputation, the classes are small and u can get a lot of help without too much hassle, good student & teaching support, and they're recommending anyone to go there =P i'd say it's a good choice, not posh, but good xD
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Lol Alright thanks :)
I asked my uncle who used to be a lecturer there and he said it's alright ... seriously i'm not looking for reputation i'm looking at the course itself and the atmosphere :)