ATAR Notes: Forum
National Education => Admissions tests => UMAT => Topic started by: nacho on December 17, 2010, 12:40:05 pm
-
Hi AN,
Well, I purchased the medentry package, and have been through around 8-10 drills (the majority of which are in section 1)
I've noticed that I don't find Section 2 so difficult, and am usually able to finish within the timeframe and score 12-13/15, i've only done 3 drills though.
Section 3, I did my first drill a few days back, went approximately 25 minutes overboard and got 11/15, 10/15 so not as good as section 2 - I'm not too worried about section 3 as i've been told this is the section people improve most on.
Section 1 is the tricky one.
I've done 6/7 drills, with practically all of them 40 minutes overboard (i try to do them VERY carefully, but often make sloppy mistakes) and yet at beast i score 13/20, averaging 10/20.
I'm really worried about section 1 - but so far, i've picked up on some tips to improve on such as drawing out rows and collumns and having a check-box for the type of questions which ask "If the accountant knows the doctor..what is Jame's occupation"
Could anyone offer further advice for section 1? I've been told to increase my reading speed - but a part from that nothing much can improve, should I then just focus on section 2 and 3?
Thanks (I hope to get into med)
-
Read the questions carefully, extract important information and write them all out. Umm, I didnt do well in the UMAT so I dont want to give any more of my advice LOL
-
Getting overtime in section one is not at all uncommon.
If this helps i got 68 for my score for section 1, and i used to take 40 minutes to do those 20 minute drills
Section 2 in Medentry can be quite different to section 2 in the real UMAT - just beware
Section three - 10/15 is a good score, that should be 95 percentile in the real UMAT as section 3 in medentry is generally harder.
-
Getting overtime in section one is not at all uncommon.
If this helps i got 68 for my score for section 1, and i used to take 40 minutes to do those 20 minute drills
Section 2 in Medentry can be quite different to section 2 in the real UMAT - just beware
Section three - 10/15 is a good score, that should be 95 percentile in the real UMAT as section 3 in medentry is generally harder.
Don't mean to blow my own trumpet but medentry is piss easy for section 3? I've lost one mark out of like 30 questions so far...
Does this mean I theoretically should do well on UMAT section 3?
-
By the way, as someone who has actually done UMAT, would you say that there is a large degree of luck as to who attains the high scores?
-
By the way, as someone who has actually done UMAT, would you say that there is a large degree of luck as to who attains the high scores?
definitely, it's mostly luck.
-
By the way, as someone who has actually done UMAT, would you say that there is a large degree of luck as to who attains the high scores?
definitely, it's mostly luck.
I hear that often.
However, from my friend's school, 5-6 guys I know took the test. The one who I thought was the smartest smashed the other ones...
However, in general, I think with this kind of test there is going to be a large degree of luck involved, I personally would think that 5 days throughout the year of UMAT testing whereby your average is forwarded to the University would be a much fairer system as it eradicates chance. Whether such a system is monetarily possible or not though....
-
By the way, as someone who has actually done UMAT, would you say that there is a large degree of luck as to who attains the high scores?
definitely, it's mostly luck.
I hear that often.
However, from my friend's school, 5-6 guys I know took the test. The one who I thought was the smartest smashed the other ones...
However, in general, I think with this kind of test there is going to be a large degree of luck involved, I personally would think that 5 days throughout the year of UMAT testing whereby your average is forwarded to the University would be a much fairer system as it eradicates chance. Whether such a system is monetarily possible or not though....
yeah ive heard that idea before, its definitely fairer since atm there is a huge 'on the day' factor involved. i know of quite a few high 99s scorers who didnt do that well in the UMAT, despite doing well in some practice ones.
-
I find this disturbing to see how many people who believe that 'luck' is a leading factor in determining the future doctors. this is most certainly not true!
The reason that people get the impression that luck plays a role in the UMAT is that not all "smart" kids or 'nerds" may necessarily kill the UMAT. the UMAT is a different, logical, visual mathematical and emtional IQ test. In no way will luck help you in the UMAT.
Some people are generally better than others in the UMAT, some are naturally talented at it, people with 99.95 before have struggled with the UMAT. That does not mean that 'luck' will help you.
Hard work sometimes will not see an improvement - unlike with normal studies, u can put in tonnes of effort and not see an ounce of improvement, or you can do 4 Sections 3 drills and see a MASSIVE improvement. The UMAT is not predictable - but the people who do well in the UMAT are without a doubt fairly clever in their own respects. It may not mean that he/she will get an epic ATAR, but people who do well in the UMAT are credible.
Practice papers are not always reflective of the UMAT's true nature and hence people who do well in practice papers will not necessarily get a score indicative of performances in medentry exams or ACER practice papers
-
I think luck is definitely a factor but it's not a huge one. It's probably a few percentile points either way - a "lucky" student won't get 99 just because they were lucky, they'd have to have had a "base" level that was still quite high.
-
I find this disturbing to see how many people who believe that 'luck' is a leading factor in determining the future doctors. this is most certainly not true!
The reason that people get the impression that luck plays a role in the UMAT is that not all "smart" kids or 'nerds" may necessarily kill the UMAT. the UMAT is a different, logical, visual mathematical and emtional IQ test. In no way will luck help you in the UMAT.
Some people are generally better than others in the UMAT, some are naturally talented at it, people with 99.95 before have struggled with the UMAT. That does not mean that 'luck' will help you.
Hard work sometimes will not see an improvement - unlike with normal studies, u can put in tonnes of effort and not see an ounce of improvement, or you can do 4 Sections 3 drills and see a MASSIVE improvement. The UMAT is not predictable - but the people who do well in the UMAT are without a doubt fairly clever in their own respects. It may not mean that he/she will get an epic ATAR, but people who do well in the UMAT are credible.
Practice papers are not always reflective of the UMAT's true nature and hence people who do well in practice papers will not necessarily get a score indicative of performances in medentry exams or ACER practice papers
Out of curiosity what is your ~IQ?
-
By the way, as someone who has actually done UMAT, would you say that there is a large degree of luck as to who attains the high scores?
definitely, it's mostly luck.
I hear that often.
+1. Its funny that most of the senior surgeons/health professionals (in the area for 20+ years) can't do very well in the UMAT yet are highly successful and respected.
Its really not a good test, a bit like the GAT in a way.
-
Its funny that most of the senior surgeons/health professionals (in the area for 20+ years) can't do very well in the UMAT yet are highly successful and respected.
Just wondering if there's actually any evidence for this other than anecdotal. The discussion on whether the UMAT is a suitable entry exam has been had multiple times and the consensus is generally that it's got flaws but they're not particularly significant when you consider the strengths.
-
By the way, as someone who has actually done UMAT, would you say that there is a large degree of luck as to who attains the high scores?
definitely, it's mostly luck.
I hear that often.
+1. Its funny that most of the senior surgeons/health professionals (in the area for 20+ years) can't do very well in the UMAT yet are highly successful and respected.
Its really not a good test, a bit like the GAT in a way.
But who is to say that these surgeons are the best that Victoria has to offer? Perhaps, has the UMAT been implemented ~20 years ago, we would have even better surgeons today. Rendering the UMAT effective and a necessary part of our health professionals workforce.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
^Fair point, but when will a surgeon need to match shapes in a pattern? I agree with the emotive parts of the test (can see the practical applications), but knowledge of huge vocabs and expert pattern recognising doesn't really match any of the occupations. Plus, if luck plays a huge role, do we want surgeons who got there through pure merit, or through a fair bit of luck? Wouldn't that make the system a bit worse, if luck plays such a huge role (it already plays role in VCE subjects like english, etc.)?
-
Because a surgeon never has to use any spatial reasoning when a patient's appendix is in the "wrong position" (retroileal rather than retrocaecal)...
The UMAT is testing underlying skills, which is part of the reason it's a good test as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't have to have practical applications, what you learn in your MBBS is going to have practical applications
-
Well pi,
It is easy to find flaws in most systems, can you think up a better one?
I can tell you honestly, the people who get 99+ are not necessarily going to be the best doctors that we have to offer. So another form of non-subjective selection criteria is needed.I can't personally think of a better way to gauge who would be an apt doctor. Keep in mind, they are looking for intelligent, hard-working people who can communicate well and are empathetic.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
^Fair point, but when will a surgeon need to match shapes in a pattern? I agree with the emotive parts of the test (can see the practical applications), but knowledge of huge vocabs and expert pattern recognising doesn't really match any of the occupations. Plus, if luck plays a huge role, do we want surgeons who got there through pure merit, or through a fair bit of luck? Wouldn't that make the system a bit worse, if luck plays such a huge role (it already plays role in VCE subjects like english, etc.)?
I don't think you see the point of those other sections. Diagnosis is largely a game of pattern recognition. Things in Medicine are rarely straight forward and present themselves as complete textbook definitions, so a large degree of pattern recognition is needed in the process. Section 1 follows a similar thing. The ability to make logical deductions from a large amount of information is vital. Even in my clinical exams, we're bombarded with a heap of irrelevant information from the patient's history which we have to sort through in our heads while talking to them, and make connections between the relevant information. The time constraints of the UMAT reflect the type of pressure and time constraints with which you have to operate under on a regular basis as a medical student and as a doctor in your thought processes.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
IMO the UMAT is the fairest it can get.
-
^^Got me there Russ and shinny, thats true, and I understand the point now.
But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.
My idea for a replacement would be to eliminate the multiple choice factor, reduce the number of questions (whilst still maintaining time constraints) and make it all short answer (or mostly, as some patterns would be hard to draw I guess). Harder to guess, less luck, better/more deserved people getting their course and the underlying skills (that Russ and shinny mentioned) are still all there. More fair and better for the future.
-
IMO the UMAT is the fairest it can get.
Agree with this with the exemption that in theory the 'rich' kids should be able to get prep material that helps them. Luckily we have a way of getting that material free...
-
Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.
But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.
Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.
But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.
Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.
Could you elaborate on that first point? No disputing your point, just curious. You mean that socio-economics could be an issue for someone wanting to become a surgeon even though they are accepted in to Surgery college?
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.
But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.
Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.
Could you elaborate on that first point? No disputing your point, just curious. You mean that socio-economics could be an issue for someone wanting to become a surgeon even though they are accepted in to Surgery college?
Of course, for example if someone was accepted into a prestigious university but could not afford the tuition fees etc? And I would think that there may be slight discrimination based on socio-economic factors? Correct me if I'm wrong :P
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
...
so, how's section 1 coming a long for you guys? :D
Is section 2 medentry really all that different (in terms of question stlye) from the actual one? Or do you just mean it's a lot harder/easier?
This makes me sad..
-
Socio economic factors will literally always be part of your career. The surgeon/pediatrician/etc. who gets a fellowship but can't afford to provide his own rooms or secretary etc. You can't really point at the fact that wealthy students have an advantage as a reason for the UMAT being unfair.
But still, so much luck to determine a person who is operating on someone else (although there would be some who got there purely/mostly on merit though)... It seems a bit risky, with so much luck involved for most applicants. Surely there is a better way to test the underlying skills, that involves less luck.
Just how much luck do you think is involved. Guessing MCQs successfully is partially negated by the marking system and I don't think that luck is a factor other than the standard "had a bad day", which isn't really that big a deal.
Could you elaborate on that first point? No disputing your point, just curious. You mean that socio-economics could be an issue for someone wanting to become a surgeon even though they are accepted in to Surgery college?
Of course, for example if someone was accepted into a prestigious university but could not afford the tuition fees etc? And I would think that there may be slight discrimination based on socio-economic factors? Correct me if I'm wrong :P
He means post-university. After you finish your medical degree and go into surgeons college or paediatrics college...
Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
-
Hey Russ,
How hard is it to become a surgeon once your in a medical degree?
Would it require a perfect GPA or what selection criteria do they use?
-
Specialties are done after you've graduated and worked in the health system for several years. Your uni grades won't matter, what will matter is how good your clinical skills are, your experience, any extra degrees you have, your connections etc.
-
Specialties are done after you've graduated and worked in the health system for several years. Your uni grades won't matter, what will matter is how good your clinical skills are, your experience, any extra degrees you have, your connections etc.
Yeah it's all about references+reputation getting in to the specialty training.
-
Worth starting prep for UMAT during Year 11?
-
Worth starting prep for UMAT during Year 11?
How many resources do you have to last 1.5 years?
-
You could easily reuse them but there's no reason to start in year 11. I think that the UMAT effort/reward graph is very exponential and a relatively small amount of preparation is best
-
Specialties are done after you've graduated and worked in the health system for several years. Your uni grades won't matter, what will matter is how good your clinical skills are, your experience, any extra degrees you have, your connections etc.
Sweet, so if I get into Monash med, it's bludging for 5 years...
-
Victoria doesn't use a ballot for internships as far as I know, I wouldn't advise that haha
-
Specialties are done after you've graduated and worked in the health system for several years. Your uni grades won't matter, what will matter is how good your clinical skills are, your experience, any extra degrees you have, your connections etc.
Sweet, so if I get into Monash med, it's bludging for 5 years...
Med is definitely no bludge ha, it's still quite a lot of work even to pass. Besides, internship places are selected by academic grades currently in Victoria. And since the number of med graduates is going to increase in the next few years, it's going to become a little more competitive for internships.