ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: stonecold on November 29, 2011, 05:54:45 pm
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A THESIS could replace exams in some VCE subjects under a state government plan to make year 12 more relevant to the skills required for the workforce.
A senior secondary qualification called the Victorian Baccalaureate, which would offer a broader education than VCE, could also be introduced.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/year-12-exams-may-be-cut-back-20111128-1o3d0.html#ixzz1f4gcaBNa
Thoughts?
I personally think it is soft. People whinge enough about exams, and sure enough, they cave and get rid of them.
Assessment of a thesis in VCE is going to be riddled with cheating. The same thing happens in IB.
The current system of exams has a lot of integrity, which is one of my one and only things I like about the current system.
It wouldn't surprise me to see future med/law/dent hopefuls enrolling in something like philosophy and paying a tutor to get them a 50...
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I personally think it is soft.
+1, my thought exactly when I came across this today, unnecessary.
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The Victorian Baccalaureate could require students to study a second language, participate in group work and write theses that demonstrated in-depth research and deeper thinking - all skills Mr Dixon said were needed in the workforce.
I agree with this part of the article whole heartedly, it's part of the reason I chose to do the IB in the first place.
But based on reading the rest of the article, I have to agree with you.
Writing theses instead of exams? Say what? The only thing similar to that in the IB is the Extended Essay, which basically gives you a chance to explore and research one of the subject areas you're doing in further depth. You would do it in addition to your exams, it's a compulsory component of the IB course. It does not replace exams.
I really don't like how they're proposing to do it.
The way they've written it in that article, the VB (??) would be terrible. It doesn't seem like they've done any research at all, they sound like they're just taking aspects of the IB and shoving it in the VCE. I don't think they've taken into account any of the measures that are undertaken in the IB to make sure that the program works successfully in the first place.
Assessment of a thesis in VCE is going to be riddled with cheating. The same thing happens in IB.
Just wanted to clear this up though, it's pretty hard to cheat on the EE. They all get sent off overseas to be marked by external assessors, then they get checked a second time by a moderator appointed by the IBO to make sure the grade's fair. In addition, they run numerous anti-plagiarism checks etc .
Besides, I honestly don't know why anyone would be stupid enough to try and cheat on the EE. It's one of the IB's core components, meaning that if you don't pass it, you fail the entire IB diploma and basically don't graduate from high school. Why risk it?
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Nah, I don't agree on VB!!Objection on writng a 4000-5000words would test a student's ability..crazy as this is even worse than exams, agree?
I still prefer on doing VCE..+it's a cool name!
IB is alright too and recognised around the world but
definitely not VB!~ :P
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definitely not VB!~ :P
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-4QWxsjn0nU/SuJ1fz4PScI/AAAAAAAABXg/aKGckuaKZBI/s400/Victoria+Bitter+Beer.jpg)
why not?
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Just wanted to clear this up though, it's pretty hard to cheat on the EE. They all get sent off overseas to be marked by external assessors, then they get checked a second time by a moderator appointed by the IBO to make sure the grade's fair. In addition, they run numerous anti-plagiarism checks etc .
There's a huge difference between plagiarising something already written, which is incredibly easy to detect, and having somebody write it for you. I had a friend do the IB and I gave her some advice for her EE - if I'd written the whole damn thing, I can't see how it'd be detected if she was smart enough to be involved in the process and not just submit it at the end.
I do like the idea of the VB (lol at the acronym), it just needs to be adjusted to make it more appropriate. The idea of having students learn a LOTE and write a research essay is a very good one, just needs to be finessed into the current system better.
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There's a huge difference between plagiarising something already written, which is incredibly easy to detect, and having somebody write it for you. I had a friend do the IB and I gave her some advice for her EE - if I'd written the whole damn thing, I can't see how it'd be detected if she was smart enough to be involved in the process and not just submit it at the end.
Well, there's still the fact that you have a mentor who you meet up with on a regular basis for progress reports. You have to outline what you've done, submit your first draft, working outline, refine your research question and topic areas with them, and then at the end you both sign a document saying that it's your own work (as far as they know, anyways.)
Perhaps it could just be how it's done at my school, because the system wouldn't be infallible but I think it's pretty good how it is. (... alternatively, my EE mentor is my English teacher, so if I tried to pull anything like that, she'd know straight away. >.>)
I do like the idea of the VB (lol at the acronym), it just needs to be adjusted to make it more appropriate. The idea of having students learn a LOTE and write a research essay is a very good one, just needs to be finessed into the current system better.
Mm, same. I quite like the concept, but I'm also really curious as to what's going to differentiate it from the IB. Right now, the only thing I can really see is that it's not as well thought out/planned... >.>
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We already have VCAL for the applied learners... and 160 hours community service just to pass high-school? High-school is meant to be about education. Community service is the sort of thing you do outside of school, not in school.
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We already have VCAL for the applied learners... and 160 hours community service just to pass high-school? High-school is meant to be about education. Community service is the sort of thing you do outside of school, not in school.
Not really. A lot of the stuff you learn in high school is not even used in university--ie only methods/english are usually required as prereqs. Everything else is retaught or not used. High school can be seen as more of a preparation for life in the real society I guess (if not just preparation for uni).
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We already have VCAL for the applied learners... and 160 hours community service just to pass high-school? High-school is meant to be about education. Community service is the sort of thing you do outside of school, not in school.
One could argue community service is a part of education in the original sense of the term - that is, drawing out what is within the individual, in this case, a sense of social responsibility and moral integrity.
I'm all for an update to the VCE system as well, ESPECIALLY in relation to the second language requirement. It's time for our educational system to get more serious, so that it's not just about learning for the exam, but learning to be 'well-rounded'. It's a joke how little real research is done by high school students nowadays as well, and encouraging students to write a research essay is a brilliant idea.
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Just wanted to point out quickly that they got it wrong in the article.
It's not 160 hours of community service, it's 160 hours of CAS, or Creative, Action, Service. (Creative being things like the school musical or being part of a band, action being any sport and service being community service.) In other words, your total extracurricular activities have add up to 160 hours, not just community service. It's a lot like Duke of Ed.
Minor point, but thought I'd clear that up so that people aren't getting the wrong idea.
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Just wanted to clear this up though, it's pretty hard to cheat on the EE. They all get sent off overseas to be marked by external assessors, then they get checked a second time by a moderator appointed by the IBO to make sure the grade's fair. In addition, they run numerous anti-plagiarism checks etc .
There's a huge difference between plagiarising something already written, which is incredibly easy to detect, and having somebody write it for you. I had a friend do the IB and I gave her some advice for her EE - if I'd written the whole damn thing, I can't see how it'd be detected if she was smart enough to be involved in the process and not just submit it at the end.
I do like the idea of the VB (lol at the acronym), it just needs to be adjusted to make it more appropriate. The idea of having students learn a LOTE and write a research essay is a very good one, just needs to be finessed into the current system better.
Agree with pretty much all of this.
I've been told that people get help with their TOK essays, and also that in some cases people are getting their 160 hours signed off on by the authorized person/s when they haven't even done some or most of it.
As many people said in the comments of the article, the two main problems with the whole thesis thing are that firstly, the majority of VCE students (possibly even teachers...) wouldn't have a clue how to write a thesis, and secondly, putting a large chunk of the assessment down to something which students could easily get someone else to do for them is ridiculous and has close to no integrity. This type of assessment will do nothing more than further extend the gap between private and government schools in terms of equality and fairness.
The only fair way to assess students purely on their own ability is to make them sit exams. To replace exams with a thesis is ludicrous. A lot of undergrad arts subjects at uni still have exams anyway, so it is not like it is preparing these students for uni at all.
I don't disagree with the Minister's ideas, but if the government doesn't execute this properly it will be a disaster. I spoke to him a few weeks ago, and he seemed like a decent bloke so I will reserve my judgement.
The main thing which I don't see the point in however is why we need a whole new VB? The IB is far superior. Why waste money, time and effort on something when it already exists?
These proposed changes could easily be incorporated into the current VCE system with some minor tweaking. For example, in the VCE humanities subjects, why not replace the SAC component with a couple of 25% extended research essays or theses or whatever they want to name them?
As for everyone ranting on about VCE not being well rounded...it certainly could be. All that merely has to happen here is selectional restrictions need to be placed on subject choices. I would think something along the lines of 1 x English, Maths and LOTE as a minimum. Similarly, it would not be hard to introduce a community service requirement into the program.
But the bottom line of my argument is that exams have to stay for at least half of the assessment in virtually all subjects. It is the only way to keep the system at least somewhat fair...which students deserve in a year where the stakes are high and students dreams and careers are on the line. Exams don't have to be written. I'd love for a greater emphasis on oral and/or practical exams, but that costs money and will probably never happen.
I am pretty old school, and personally would love nothing more than to do away with SACs and have VCE assessment based entirely on exams, but in this day and age I know that is unreasonable and not going to happen. But honestly, exams are the ultimate test. If you can cope with exam pressure, then there won't be much else that you can't do. Also, exams are a fantastic way to ensure students learn all of the content. Assignments, essays etc. on the other hand only require knowledge of what is being tested and hence students get away with learning certain aspects of the course. Of course, the humanities based subjects need the freedom for research so people can write about their own ideas, which is why a balance between exams and take home essays needs to be found. But if the exam component of subjects is removed, the system will become grossly unfair and be left open to rorting on a scale which has never been seen before.
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Are they trying yo replace IB by VB?
Thanks.
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Are they trying yo replace IB by VB?
Thanks.
Nope, IB is out of Australian jurisdiction. VB is a proposal to replace the current VCE system in Victoria.
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Oh so VCE is replaced by VB?
well, if that's it, then i don't really like VB
which test you on writing for a 4000-5000, can't
really test your skills though..
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Do you feel as though VCE is a true reflection of skill as it is?
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Yeah, reckon better just ended up writing a piece essay..
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Hellz nah I picked VCE because I was too lazy for the hectic IB system (from personal experience, the IB kids work so much harder for little gain). Also, I have seen just how easy it is to make up CAS hours and submit a not-entirely-your-own-work TOK presentation/essay and EE. One kid at my school even packed up and left to the US because she'd been accused of hiring someone to write her EE.
Anyway, if VCAA attempted to model the VB off of the IB, it would fail horribly.
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does anyone know when this is planned to take place... and if it is compulsory or the school's choice?
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^ It's not going to happen any time soon, so don't worry too much about it.