ATAR Notes: Forum
Uni Stuff => Faculties => Health sciences => Topic started by: samad on December 19, 2011, 02:47:22 pm
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Still can't decide b/w Unimelb guaranteed pathway to MD and Monash MBBS. I know that Monash is a shorter degree and is best if you want to specialise at a younger age, but Melbourne gives you a larger knowledge base and greater research opportunities down the track, and it arguably has better clinical schools.
I know this thread really concerns a small demographic and apologize if it seems really exclusive, but any advice or insight before change of preference close on 21/12/11 would be really helpful!
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Hmm, after appraising all the options and pros and cons, I've decided on Monash.
Pros about Monash:
- Shorter degree (5-6 years)
- More exposure to clinical setting (3 clinical years, but at years 1 and 2 you have placements as well) => great opportunities for personal development too
- From samad's perspective, the scholarship is guaranteed to cover the costs of med school and pay your allowance of $6000 pa. Med school is expensive. Melb doesn't have this - scholarship covers only undergraduate.
- (this was the clincher for me) Family setting: You're with the same group of people for five years in an environment where competition is discouraged. You're learning together to become good doctors, rather than getting marks. You're helping each other, suffering with each other. At Melbourne with the undergrad degree: Science - different ppl do different subjects, fragmented cohort. Biomedicine - assuming most ppl want to do graduate entry medicine, competition may be cut-throat at worst.
Pros about Melbourne:
- Broader knowledge base, yes.
- Best medical school in southern hemisphere (but this is based on postgraduate stuff and research); Monash also has a brilliant reputation as a research university, and is rising up the ranks-fast. Only reason it is not up there with Melbourne is because Monash is a new university (only founded 50 years ago to melbourne's 150) and so it did not have much time to establish itself. (Hearsay) It is also ranked the best NEW university in Australia (or was it in Southern Hemisphere? I don't remember).
- Location!! Takes me 1 hour to get to Melbourne, 2 to Monash (I'd be moving house should I get into monash)
- Chance to do breadth, so study things you are interested in without worrying about grades.
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As far as I'm concerned it depends on whether you want to do a medical degree straight away or you're looking to experience a variety of pathways before starting medicine. Those are really the two key determinants. I dislike the undergraduate pathway of medicine on the grounds that it typically draws high school students into a career that they'll probably spend the rest of their lives in, with no experience of what it's like or whether they truly want it. Melbourne probably has better clinical schools but I don't think that's that big a deal. Melbourne is a better medical program than Monash, but again probably not that big a deal.
If you have a gut feeling about one, go with that one. If not, UoM will give you time to change your mind and enjoy yourself for 3 years, which is particularly valuable, trust me.
- (this was the clincher for me) Family setting: You're with the same group of people for five years in an environment where competition is discouraged. You're learning together to become good doctors, rather than getting marks. You're helping each other, suffering with each other. At Melbourne with the undergrad degree: Science - different ppl do different subjects, fragmented cohort. Biomedicine - assuming most ppl want to do graduate entry medicine, competition may be cut-throat at worst.
You'll get 7 years of a family environment in Biomed -> MD, I've never seen any of this cut throat competition in my last 3 years here. I have heard plenty of stories out of the monash MBBS of competition there though, I don't think it's the perfect environment you envision.
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I wouldn't know for sure but I don't think you can have a very 'family' environment in the last 3 years of med school where you'll be doing clinicals almost all the time (at different hospitals).
Also, if I got 99.90+ I would definitely go to melbourne.
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No cut-throat competition? That's good to hear. :D
You've heard about cut-throats at Monash? What have you heard?
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There are, however, a few new dimensions to the debate:
1:Clinical schools
Melbourne university:
- Clinical schools are great for specialization: Western Health (peadiatrics), Royal Children's, Austin, St Vincent's, The Women's, Royal Melbourne Hospital. You get that big hospital feel and big hospital experience, at very great locations vs Dandenong, Casey, Box Hill and Monash Med Centre at Monash
Monash University:
- The more "out there" hospitals really foster your independence. You face limitations of resources and less support as there are less people (apparently, after talking to my career's advisor), so you get more time developing your clinical skills. This can be compared with Inner city hospitals where there are so many students that you go on a roster even when on a full time clinical rotation. (less time with patients)
2: Quality of medical teaching
Melbourne:
-From what I've heard, some of the best anatomy professors in australia
-Course is not fragmented and is highly collaborative for the MD 4 year component, although it is quite fragmented and less "family-like" for bachelor years
Monash:
-Collaborative throughout: Build great friendships
- Not too sure about their professors, as I haven't heard too many testimonials (one guy I know said their lectures are boring?? That's only one guy)
3: Study/Work/life balance
Bachelors degree at UoM gives you more chance to tutor/ work part time/ pursue extra-curricular interests
At monash, I have heard of people who have attempted to do things like tutoring before, but it ends up being too much work alongside an intense med course
This might concern you Thushan if you are interested in tutoring
Does any of this make it any easier? Probably not, :o but these are just some of the things i was considering. Your thoughts would be much appreciated
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There are, however, a few new dimensions to the debate:
1:Clinical schools
You will have literally years of high pressure patient care in your PGYs, why so keen to jump in the deep end? But at the end of the day, your clinical schools aren't going to be a huge difference between unis.
2: Quality of medical teaching
Melbourne:
-From what I've heard, some of the best anatomy professors in australia
-Course is not fragmented and is highly collaborative for the MD 4 year component, although it is quite fragmented and less "family-like" for bachelor years
Monash:
-Collaborative throughout: Build great friendships
- Not too sure about their professors, as I haven't heard too many testimonials (one guy I know said their lectures are boring?? That's only one guy)
Lectures at Melbourne are boring as well (making bilirubin interesting is probably impossible). Also, there's definitely a great familial vibe at Melbourne (in biomed at least). It's actually one of the strengths of the biomed program, it was the focus of our presentation today.
Agree very strongly on three, the undergrad years to enjoy yourself and understand yourself are very valuable
No cut-throat competition? That's good to hear. :D
You've heard about cut-throats at Monash? What have you heard?
Talk to shinny, not me on this one.
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Don't you have to maintain H2A averages in the Undergraduate degree in order to get the guaranteed entry into MD?
If so, even if I had 99.95/99.90, which I don't, I still wouldn't really go with the Melbourne option because I have no biology experience and really don't know if I'll be able to crack H2A averages in a subject I've really never done before, I'd probably be more confident in Maths/Computer Science but not Biology/Chemistry subjects
I've also heard there's no competition at Monash because the first two years are Pass/Fail only, you don't get the whole H1, H2A...etc. thing so there's less competition between students which I think is good, also there's the Med Bubble, so like all of you guys are close and you get MEDCAMP IN FEB! I'M LIKE EXCITED FOR THIS ALREADY EVEN THOUGH I'M NOT IN YET! HELL YEAHH!
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Don't you have to maintain H2A averages in the Undergraduate degree in order to get the guaranteed entry into MD?
If so, even if I had 99.95/99.90, which I don't, I still wouldn't really go with the Melbourne option because I have no biology experience and really don't know if I'll be able to crack H2A averages in a subject I've really never done before, I'd probably be more confident in Maths/Computer Science but not Biology/Chemistry subjects
No you don't / I did it and it was fine.
Med camp is awesome though, I'm going to ours in Feb
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^ yeah about the clinical schools, no matter how 'bad' or 'not as good as other hospitals' you think one is, it is still going to be plenty good enough for the likes of a med student who hasn't even graduated. That's just how I feel though.
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You'll get 7 years of a family environment in Biomed -> MD, I've never seen any of this cut throat competition in my last 3 years here. I have heard plenty of stories out of the monash MBBS of competition there though, I don't think it's the perfect environment you envision.
That's strange, I hear (and have experienced on my side) the reverse. Our year level has a Facebook group set up where people have posted all their notes and such online. One guy has posted about 10 self-written lectures on basically every topic we had to learn this year, with each topic spanning about 300 Powerpoint slides. There's also a sense of community between the levels, with every year level now immediately doing exam write-ups immediately after every exam we have, so that future year levels have past-exams to work with (since the faculty stopped providing these to us). With this year's exam, within 2 days, we managed to remember and write down 99 out of 100 of the MCQs that were on our exam and that file has now been uploaded to the Med Society's past-exam database.
I wouldn't know for sure but I don't think you can have a very 'family' environment in the last 3 years of med school where you'll be doing clinicals almost all the time (at different hospitals).
Sure you can. After spending two years with the same people every day for many hours, they end up pretty much becoming your closest friends. So my group from 1st and 2nd year still catch up very regularly - at least once a fortnight if not more. The people from within your hospital end up becoming very close too. I initially was dreading my hospital placement this year since I didn't really know anyone, but we eventually grew really close and towards the end of the year and we even had nights where the entire group of us from the hospital would just head out and have a drink together.
There are, however, a few new dimensions to the debate:
1:Clinical schools
Melbourne university:
- Clinical schools are great for specialization: Western Health (peadiatrics), Royal Children's, Austin, St Vincent's, The Women's, Royal Melbourne Hospital. You get that big hospital feel and big hospital experience, at very great locations vs Dandenong, Casey, Box Hill and Monash Med Centre at Monash
Monash University:
- The more "out there" hospitals really foster your independence. You face limitations of resources and less support as there are less people (apparently, after talking to my career's advisor), so you get more time developing your clinical skills. This can be compared with Inner city hospitals where there are so many students that you go on a roster even when on a full time clinical rotation. (less time with patients)
My experience is that smaller hospitals/clinics are MUCH better for learning. I was at Box Hill and Maroondah Hospital this year and frankly Box Hill wasn't very good. Everyone was just too busy to bother letting you do anything and I'm sure this effect will get multiplied many times over in the inner city hospitals. This experience was mirrored by my friends at The Alfred. On the other hand, Maroondah was brilliant. I could pretty much walk on any ward, just ask the nurse in charge for a good patient to talk to and I'd just jump right in. Procedures were easy to get as well since the doctors had time to supervise you and were happy to do so - especially since they were less stressed. Having experienced this, next year I've even purposely chosen to go to a small GP clinic instead of those massive super clinics since I've realised it's actually a far better learning environment. Apparently for the last few years, the top performing students in 3rd year have been from Casey Hospital which is absolutely tiny. But yes, inner city hospitals are better for establishing connections for specialising and such. While this can be done while still in Med school, you've still got time during your internship and residency years so it's not the end of the world if you don't go. The connections you have at any hospital are still valuable regardless as well.
There are, however, a few new dimensions to the debate:
1:Clinical schools
Melbourne university:
- Clinical schools are great for specialization: Western Health (peadiatrics), Royal Children's, Austin, St Vincent's, The Women's, Royal Melbourne Hospital. You get that big hospital feel and big hospital experience, at very great locations vs Dandenong, Casey, Box Hill and Monash Med Centre at Monash
Monash University:
- The more "out there" hospitals really foster your independence. You face limitations of resources and less support as there are less people (apparently, after talking to my career's advisor), so you get more time developing your clinical skills. This can be compared with Inner city hospitals where there are so many students that you go on a roster even when on a full time clinical rotation. (less time with patients)
2: Quality of medical teaching
Melbourne:
-From what I've heard, some of the best anatomy professors in australia
-Course is not fragmented and is highly collaborative for the MD 4 year component, although it is quite fragmented and less "family-like" for bachelor years
Monash:
-Collaborative throughout: Build great friendships
- Not too sure about their professors, as I haven't heard too many testimonials (one guy I know said their lectures are boring?? That's only one guy)
The majority of Medicine is self-taught, so I wouldn't stress about the quality of lectures too much.
^ yeah about the clinical schools, no matter how 'bad' or 'not as good as other hospitals' you think one is, it is still going to be plenty good enough for the likes of a med student who hasn't even graduated. That's just how I feel though.
Yeh, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter too much where you go. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's just up to you to compensate for them. Big hospitals tend to organise heaps of lectures from their big shot doctors, but don't offer much in the way of actual clinical engagement. Small hospitals are the reverse - you're pretty much just thrown in the deep end and it's up to you to roam the wards and do whatever you wish. You won't get as many lectures, but the free time allows you to learn in a more clinical manner.
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^ If you put it that way, the same can be said about 'family environment' with any degree, even science. You can also get close to people in different subjects. I think the original point was that in monash or melbourne biomed, you can stay together for longer. Not saying anything about maintaining close ties with friends, because that happens all the time everywhere.
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Id seriously go for melbourne.. my brother and his friend, who are both 5th year MBBS at melbourne continuously complain that the monash kids dont know what theyre talking about. you can obviously expect some prejudice from them, but melbourne is no. 1 for a reason...
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^ If you put it that way, the same can be said about 'family environment' with any degree, even science. You can also get close to people in different subjects. I think the original point was that in monash or melbourne biomed, you can stay together for longer. Not saying anything about maintaining close ties with friends, because that happens all the time everywhere.
Ah right, that's what you meant. Well if you meant as a whole cohort collective, then definitely it exists still. Lecture-wide mexican waves were a common feature of 1st and 2nd year, together with large gatherings of us waiting on the Central lawns for lectures and such. Just overall I think the undergrad experience is definitely a benefit socially. 1st and 2nd year were great fun overall. My brother does graduate Medicine at UQ and he says the people there are really quite anti-social (not sure if due to graduate or due to UQ >_>).
Id seriously go for melbourne.. my brother and his friend, who are both 5th year MBBS at melbourne continuously complain that the monash kids dont know what theyre talking about. you can obviously expect some prejudice from them, but melbourne is no. 1 for a reason...
If you ask us about anything science-related, sure, we probably won't know what we're on about. Monash is meant to be a clinical course, not a science-based one. If you're referring to the clinical side of things and those Monash kids still don't know what they're talking about, then it's their fault really - not the uni's. Clinical medicine is meant to be largely self-taught.
Ultimately, I think the decision lies in your priorities. Melbourne is better for establishing connections, research and academic things (and location I guess). On the other hand, Monash will be a faster course, clinically-focused and I can guarantee will have a far more enjoyable social component to it.
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You can't guarantee that :foldsarms:
That's strange, I hear (and have experienced on my side) the reverse.
Yeah it could just be rumour from both sides, tbf. I shouldn't have corrected the ones about Melbourne and then gone with the ones about Monash since I haven't been there.
not sure if due to graduate or due to UQ >_>
Almost certainly due to UQ, their selection process gets criticized a fair bit.
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Remember me Samad? I saw you this morning at Melbourne MMI's.
This is EXACTLY the dilemma I'm facing.
At the moment, I'm leaning ever so slightly towards Melbourne (but that could change at any moment). Only one day left to decide...
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We posted a lot of stuff in this thread, but I think this is very relevant:
If you have a gut feeling about one, go with that one. If not, UoM will give you time to change your mind and enjoy yourself for 3 years, which is particularly valuable, trust me.
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Remember me Samad? I saw you this morning at Melbourne MMI's.
This is EXACTLY the dilemma I'm facing.
At the moment, I'm leaning ever so slightly towards Melbourne (but that could change at any moment). Only one day left to decide...
About time you joined ATARnotes ;P
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Id seriously go for melbourne.. my brother and his friend, who are both 5th year MBBS at melbourne continuously complain that the monash kids dont know what theyre talking about. you can obviously expect some prejudice from them, but melbourne is no. 1 for a reason...
Someone doesn't like Monash... :P
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Personally I would choose Chancellors, so you should go to Monash so a place opens up for those below 99.90 ;)
But seriously, if you know you 100% want to do Medicine, I think Monash would be the way to go. A shorter course, with the opportunity for an extra year of research (*BMedSci -ty shinny) if you want, and clinical, hands on learning from 3rd year is amazing. If you aren't quite sure about practicing Medicine for the rest of your life, perhaps Melbourne is better, because after three years of undergraduate biomed you may find you are interested in a different post-grad course. It would be terrible to get three years into your Monash course and realise you didn't really like Medicine, and have to start all over again.
At the end of the day, 5 years after you have finished your Uni degree it won't matter which course you did.
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I'd pick Monash, if you're looking at specialising your total medical training may be up to 15 years by the time you're done. Cutting off 2 of those years is seriously appealing to me.
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with the opportunity for an extra year of research (BBioMed)
It's a Bachelor of Medical Science (BMedSci), not a full Biomedicine degree :P Would be unfair for those who take 3 years to do it if you could just get it in one year of research.
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Remember me Samad? I saw you this morning at Melbourne MMI's.
This is EXACTLY the dilemma I'm facing.
At the moment, I'm leaning ever so slightly towards Melbourne (but that could change at any moment). Only one day left to decide...
Hi Mchli :)
Yeah, I'm in exactly the same boat as you are. spoken to some of the doctors i met at work experience and they havn't really swayed me in one particular direction, but this is what i've found so far...
-length of degree- the faster u specialise, the better, since extended time can lead to frustration ("when am i going to get out of this?" as said by one doctor), and you can absorb more things as well as push yourself when you are younger (apparently u get only 4 hrs of sleep a night at times in physician training, which is hard when you're old) so that goes to maonash (5 yrs)
-chance to learn more in-depth medical science- melbourne, due to biomed degree+ more academia and research oriented MD
-Research: Melbourne and monash are actually quite similar since Monash is rising in the rankings, although Melbourne has slightly better facilities/ big hospital connections. ultimately however, most of the major research happens after you graduate, to better prepare urself for physician training. don't forget that Melbourne's been around for 150 yrs at the heart of the city and his next
door to facilities such as WEHI, Howard Florey, bio21 etc, whilst Monash has only been around for 50 yrs.
-location: this is really a personal thing, depending on where you live, however the clincal schools at Melbourne are more central as compared to Monash. spending a full clinical year at Frankston or Casey (clinical schools at monash) hospital maybe quite demanding in terms of relocation or traveling time
- Clinical Schools: apparently these don't matter that much according to some of the med students that have posted here. However, talking to doctors in the midst of physician training, the more "reputable" (effectively larger) clinical schools (eg. royalmelb, RCH, women's, Austin at UoM and the Alfred and MMC at Monash) provide higher quality teaching from very experienced doctors, the only drawback being that there is a larger number of med students on placement alongside you which means less time per person with patients. according to these graduated doctors, the teaching at the smaller clinical schools is simply "not very good- don't go there" from what i've heard (this could be biased), otherwise Melbourne gets the tick.
-cohort: received a number of varying opinions here, but Monash definitely supports a more friendly and collaborative environment b/c everyone is training to be a doc together.
- Cash- Monash is tuition paid for full 5 years and $6000/ year bursary (effectively gives you $75 000), whilst Melbourne is only 3 years paid and $5000 for undergrad only. this goes to Monash.
such decisions can never be fully objective so each criterion cannot really be weighted equally. still can't decide... :o your thoughts??
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So:
- Length: Monash :D
- Medical Science: Melbourne. Although I would interject here that with the Monash BMedSci you get an opportunity to study a particular area of medical science in depth in conjunction with doing research - there is some coursework there.
- Research: Similar. Monash has the Baker IDI Institute and the MIMR too.
- Location: Personal.
- Clinical Schools: Depends on what you want really...
- Cohort: Monash, for sure. This is what clinched me.
- Cash: Monash, goes without saying :D
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- Location: Personal.
Yeah, true. So I hear you are moving Thushan, is that permanently? Don't know if that is a good option for me, makes Monash double the time to get there vs UoM
- Clinical Schools: Depends on what you want really...
Don't know, you may want to go to frankston everyday for 6 months vs going to Austin everyday for 6 months especially if you are closer to Frankston. But remember, some people reckon places like Casey or Frankston would be a "bad" idea. Again, it probably is good or bad for you, as there are pros and cons depending on your personal preferences. So you are probably right with the clinical schools there.
Also, what's all this talk about connections and specialisation? So you need like connections with directors and top doctors in the hospitals you want to specialise in or something along those lines? Can anyone expand on what is meant by "its good to have connections", "all the top directors and physicians work in the UoM clinical schools" and therefore it is better to go to UoM if you are really serious about specialising in things like Cardiology, Gastroenterology, Cardiac/Thoracic surgery etc.?
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Connections can be made in internship and residency.
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Thushan, did you check the locaiton quote above? :)
With connections, yeah, I don't think thats too important at this stage.
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Why is everyone saying that UoM doesn't have a good cohort? That's literally a selling point of the degree...
Also, what's all this talk about connections and specialisation? So you need like connections with directors and top doctors in the hospitals you want to specialise in or something along those lines? Can anyone expand on what is meant by "its good to have connections", "all the top directors and physicians work in the UoM clinical schools" and therefore it is better to go to UoM if you are really serious about specialising in things like Cardiology, Gastroenterology, Cardiac/Thoracic surgery etc.?
It's not necessary to have connections, it's just easier. When you apply for fellowships and stuff, there are criteria lists (publication histories and whatnot) so it's not like you can be passed over for no reason but...in the real world, nepotism/plutocracy are alive and well.
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Connections can be made in internship and residency.
Yeh, exactly. It'll be far easier to get them then anyway. Most consultants couldn't really care less about medical students unless you really stand out. One of my peers this year got offered a job offer by a consultant after he outsmarted an entire medical team. Then the consultant found out he was a third year student, so he just said to give him a call in 3 years time and he'll give him a job. Other than that, yeh, it's pretty difficult.
- Clinical Schools: Depends on what you want really...
Don't know, you may want to go to frankston everyday for 6 months vs going to Austin everyday for 6 months especially if you are closer to Frankston. But remember, some people reckon places like Casey or Frankston would be a "bad" idea. Again, it probably is good or bad for you, as there are pros and cons depending on your personal preferences. So you are probably right with the clinical schools there.
Yeh, the travel associated with Monash is pretty ridiculous for many. The hospitals are very spread out, so my interstate friends are constantly moving houses every year. It's pretty stressful on their part having to find a house and then move within a week or two at the end of every year. For those living locally and wishing to stay home, you'll need a car, so let that be a warning to those who haven't got your P's yet.
Also, what's all this talk about connections and specialisation? So you need like connections with directors and top doctors in the hospitals you want to specialise in or something along those lines? Can anyone expand on what is meant by "its good to have connections", "all the top directors and physicians work in the UoM clinical schools" and therefore it is better to go to UoM if you are really serious about specialising in things like Cardiology, Gastroenterology, Cardiac/Thoracic surgery etc.?
Yeh, connections are important for specialising. Specialising isn't just about passing exams - you also need to more or less get a job at a hospital to train under that speciality. So you can imagine that when it comes to job interviews, connections are everything.
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Why is everyone saying that UoM doesn't have a good cohort? That's literally a selling point of the degree...
This. I have met some of the Monash med students and I have to say they weren't exactly my type of people.
If you want social, then Melbourne wins. It is so close to Lygon Street and the CBD, giving you plenty of stuff to do and places to hang out.
Did I mention bars? ;)
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@ Stonecold
So... U look like you might be wanting to do MD down the track. How would kids who already have MD confirmed fit into a cohort that is effectively kind of competing for MD via GAMSAT/GPA/Interview?
Also, with those scores, you were probably unlucky to miss out on Monash MBBS, so were you going for it? Just thought I might ask. :)
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It's not three years of people trying to sabotage everyone else to get a place in the MD, you having a guaranteed place will be the subject of some jealousy, sure, but it's not going to be anything serious.
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Pick MBBS ffs.
Guaranteed Med degree, no ifs or buts. You're straight in medicine, studying what you intend to study.
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By the way, is it really guaranteed? I thought there was an interview pending for medicine...
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Once u get in that undergraduate, ur set on getting
that degree (as long as u don't fail ur subjects).
If not, a biomed undergraduate in Melb. still needs
to pass GAMSAT to be able to do graduate med.
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Sorry guys, that info is slightly inaccurate. This thread focusses on Chancellor's scholar's program , so you pass the interview after yr 12 and your guarenteed MD after biomed (no GPA or GAMSAT required). :)
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By the way, is it really guaranteed? I thought there was an interview pending for medicine...
I thikn they have offered people to take the interview in yr 12, but I'm not sure.
Even so, yes I would say it IS very guaranteed. The interview is merely a check to make sure sounds will actually come out of your mouth. My friend went up to the coordinator of medicine to ask what 'adequate communication skills' really means, since that's the criteria for the guaranteed entry, and the coordinator responded by saying that he thinks my friend easily had adequate comm skills just because he went up to him and asked!
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@ Stonecold
So... U look like you might be wanting to do MD down the track. How would kids who already have MD confirmed fit into a cohort that is effectively kind of competing for MD via GAMSAT/GPA/Interview?
Also, with those scores, you were probably unlucky to miss out on Monash MBBS, so were you going for it? Just thought I might ask. :)
Hey mate.
The people who are on guaranteed entry seriously haven't got a worry in the world. They all seem so chilled and relaxed. And you will be even better off than them, because they still have to pass the interview, whereas you have already done it. The guaranteed entry is truly unconditional. The only way you could lose it is if you fail the undergrad degree, which is never going to happen. You mention the travel time it will take you to get to Monash. This is something to consider. Then again, so is the scholarship they will give you. It is like the most generous thing I have ever seen.
As for me, my UMAT was very bad (55 overall, 73rd percentile), so I had no hope. Really annoyed to miss out on the guaranteed entry though. I missed 99.90 by 0.04 aggregate points. :/
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As for me, my UMAT was very bad (55 overall, 73rd percentile), so I had no hope. Really annoyed to miss out on the guaranteed entry though. I missed 99.90 by 0.04 aggregate points. :/
Man, ouch. that must have felt like nothing was going for you. However, given your capabilities (clearly reflected in your study scores) I'm sure you'll get through the GAMSAT fine. after that, the interview is at least not as competitive as the monash mbbs interview, so you can make it.
Thanks for the advice- in your personal opinion, then, is it better to opt for the guaranteed entry at melb?
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As for me, my UMAT was very bad (55 overall, 73rd percentile), so I had no hope. Really annoyed to miss out on the guaranteed entry though. I missed 99.90 by 0.04 aggregate points. :/
Man, ouch. that must have felt like nothing was going for you. However, given your capabilities (clearly reflected in your study scores) I'm sure you'll get through the GAMSAT fine. after that, the interview is at least not as competitive as the monash mbbs interview, so you can make it.
Thanks for the advice- in your personal opinion, then, is it better to opt for the guaranteed entry at melb?
Haha, yeah. Nothing really went right last year. Things are looking better with the GAMSAT pathway though.
Umm, it is a really tough one, because if I was in your position this time last year, I would have gone with Monash. But now after a year at Melbourne, I have to say I am quite happy and I guess things do happen for a reason. There are many factors for you to consider.
Monash - The two main pros are 1). that awesome scholarship. It would be amazing to walk away from uni with a med degree, no debt and 30k in the bank. 2). The fact that you finish 2 years earlier is also a big win. The negative is that Monash is a really big pain to get to unless you live in the area which I guess you don't.
Melb - The major pros here are that you will be able to kick back and relax a fair bit in your undergrad degree...enjoy uni life. Also, the travel time to Melb will be much less for you. The Melb degree/resources/clinical schools are also arguably better. Melb is also probably more well recognised internationally if you ever want to practice overseas, although each country has their requirments. The big cons are that the Melbourne scholarship sucks compared to the Monash one, and the Melb route will take another 2 years. 7 years at uni is a long time.
Not sure if this will be important, but the degrees themselves are also worth thinking about. Monash seems to swear by MBBS, which is a level 7 undergrad degree, even if taken at post grad level, wheareas the MD is a level 9 masters degree. I doubt that they are much different, but it seems that unis are trending towards the MD. UoM and UWA have already done it. UQ looks set to do the same. (http://www2.som.uq.edu.au/som/OurSchool/Pages/mdprogram.aspx). Hard to say, but one day it might be better to have an MD over an MBBS. All hypothetical stuff though.
At the end of the day, from a financial perspective, Monash is definitely the winner. In 7 years time you will have gotten 30k from your scholarship plus earned well over 100k as an intern and be debt free, whereas at UniMelb you will just be finishing your degree and still have around 25k of HECS debt remaining if you use your 15k from undergrad to pay it off. Just typing this makes me realize why no one who gets 99.95 wants to go to Melbourne. Sure they have the rep and a nice campus etc., but Monash's offer blows them out of the water. It really shouldn't be about money, but what Monash are offering is too good to refuse so I would take it mate. You've obviously worked hard, and you should take full advantage of it.
Is where your brother is choosing to go going to affect your decision?
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Just typing this makes me realize why no one who gets 99.95 wants to go to Melbourne.
Over 50% of them nominated biomedicine at Melbourne. Just saying :P
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This time, speaking to the others...think that majority are MBBSing it :D :P Just saying.
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Hi Stonecold :)
and the Melb route will take another 2 years. 7 years at uni is a long time.
at 5 years, monash is ultimately as short as they get, which makes it unique. however, most universities throughout Australia provide a 6 year course, so 7 years, in the scheme of things, is not too much longer, is it? if you consider those students from universities such as Adelaide and UNSW doing honours, making their degree 7 years, it's no different to a large (correct me if i'm overestimating) proportion of medical students Australia-wide.
In 7 years time you will have gotten 30k from your scholarship plus earned well over 100k as an intern and be debt free, whereas at UniMelb you will just be finishing your degree and still have around 25k of HECS debt remaining if you use your 15k from undergrad to pay it off
The scholarship at Melb definitely pales in comparison to Monash. However, the Melb MD is $9080/ year for 4 years, so ~$36 000 debt if you don't pay any of it off in uni. That isn't exactly a financial crisis, since you can take it out of your salary eventually. there might also be a scholarship available for the MD, but i am unsure. Anyone have info in regards to this?
Is where your brother is choosing to go going to affect your decision?
Yeah, it will. Going to different Unis and clinical schools might have inconveniences (eg. different Prescribed texts, etc.), so it guess it is easier if we go the same. in that regard, my bro has a umat of 92nd percentile, which means he is still largely in doubt for monash.
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Hi Stonecold :)
and the Melb route will take another 2 years. 7 years at uni is a long time.
at 5 years, monash is ultimately as short as they get, which makes it unique. however, most universities throughout Australia provide a 6 year course, so 7 years, in the scheme of things, is not too much longer, is it? if you consider those students from universities such as Adelaide and UNSW doing honours, making their degree 7 years, it's no different to a large (correct me if i'm overestimating) proportion of medical students Australia-wide.
In 7 years time you will have gotten 30k from your scholarship plus earned well over 100k as an intern and be debt free, whereas at UniMelb you will just be finishing your degree and still have around 25k of HECS debt remaining if you use your 15k from undergrad to pay it off
The scholarship at Melb definitely pales in comparison to Monash. However, the Melb MD is $9080/ year for 4 years, so ~$36 000 debt if you don't pay any of it off in uni. That isn't exactly a financial crisis, since you can take it out of your salary eventually. there might also be a scholarship available for the MD, but i am unsure. Anyone have info in regards to this?
Is where your brother is choosing to go going to affect your decision?
Yeah, it will. Going to different Unis and clinical schools might have inconveniences (eg. different Prescribed texts, etc.), so it guess it is easier if we go the same. in that regard, my bro has a umat of 92nd percentile, which means he is still largely in doubt for monash.
Monash's course is only 5 years because the research year (the BMedSci) is optional. With this in mind, graduating with a MBBS/BMedSci from Monash takes 6 years, the same as for Melbourne's undergrad med degree (which is actually an MBBS/BMedSc).
Melb MD is $9080 now. In a few years time it'll be more due to inflation. Moot point though, really.
Your brother has a 99.95 ATAR! For reference, dude who went to my school got 99.95 and 55th percentile and got into med last year.
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The government did just slash the subsidy for medical fees, but that will affect you anywhere. I'd expect a CSP for the MD to run 50k by the time you're done. Scholarships for postgrad are way harder to get than undergrad, where they'll throw money at you for prestige.
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Your brother has a 99.95 ATAR! For reference, dude who went to my school got 99.95 and 55th percentile and got into med last year.
Hey thushan, was this guy who got in Bonded or CSP open?
I'm leaning right towards Monash right now because I definitely want to be a Doc, better cohort, faster into work (less time), more incentive, less HECS debt, lifelong friends and learning exactly what you set out to learn (med material) at least two and a half years ago.
But, don't know if I should go
1: CSP open monash 2: UoM BBioMed and MD 3: CSP Bonded at Monash or
1: CSP open monash 2: CSP Bonded at Monash 3: UoM BBioMed and MD
On preferences.
Anyone's help will be much appreciated. :)
Got into UoM already BTW (guarenteed MD) :)
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He was CSP unbonded - open.
With your bonded thingy I would go Open monash/MD/Bonded Monash coz I'm very wary about being forced to work in specific areas, which could mess with your life a bit. Sure, you can do that, but I'd prefer to do it with the choice rather than by contract.
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Thanks man.
So with 92/99.95 I got more chance for unbonded than I thought...
But, If i can't pull the unbonded, then I will get the UoM. Considering my brother is 99.95/97, he has higher chance for open, so we might end up going different unis as I will put UoM on second preference. Don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but I reckon it is mostly bad (more to do with fragmentation and dislocation until clinical years)
So... Bit of a dillemma?
Any thoughts?
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1: CSP open monash 2: UoM BBioMed and MD 3: CSP Bonded at Monash or
1: CSP open monash 2: CSP Bonded at Monash 3: UoM BBioMed and MD
I would probably avoid bonded if you could, but just so you know in case this affects the decision, you can actually pay your way out of bonded. It makes bonded effectively equivalent to a full-fee place if you do. You also only need to pay off these years pretty much after you specialise (since you can only finish off your bond once you're specialised anyway). Still, I don't think tying yourself down with a contract (or paying the equivalent of full-fee) is worth going to Monash for.
Thanks man.
So with 92/99.95 I got more chance for unbonded than I thought...
But, If i can't pull the unbonded, then I will get the UoM. Considering my brother is 99.95/97, he has higher chance for open, so we might end up going different unis as I will put UoM on second preference. Don't know if this is a good or bad thing, but I reckon it is mostly bad (more to do with fragmentation and dislocation until clinical years)
So... Bit of a dillemma?
Any thoughts?
Go to different unis so we can use you two as a study on whether Monash or UoM makes a better doctor :P
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Go to different unis so we can use you two as a study on whether Monash or UoM makes a better doctor :P
LOL. But, 7 years vs 5 , twin v twin is a bit too competitive :P
On a more serious note, do you think it is a good enough gamble to but bonded no. 2 to go to same uni as bro?
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My personal opinion is that you'd be better off taking UoM Chancellor's with guaranteed entrance to CSP MD over a bonded place at Monash - there's zero room to back out of a bonded place, it's a huge commitment to be making. Just doing it to go to the same uni as your brother is a bad idea too: you'd only be on campus together for the first two years anyway.
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On a more serious note, do you think it is a good enough gamble to but bonded no. 2 to go to same uni as bro?
Despite my love for Monash, I'd say go to UoM. It's not worth the contract or payment to break it just to go there in my opinion. And as funkyducky said, you'll only be together for the first 2 years. After that it's very likely you'll be split.
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Putting BMP over CSP is pretty much the definition of a bad idea.
If you definitely want to be a doctor, then I will shelve my dislike of undergraduate medicine and say go to Monash. You can always do postgrad study later if you change your mind. If you're interested in medicine and like the idea of working as a doctor, go to Melbourne and spend some time finding out.
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(I wish I could quote everything that's been said so far)
After spending countless hours weighing up all the factors, considering all future pathways, I'm considering UoM as first pref.
This was a really tough decision but in the end, what got me was a combination of these factors:
Quality of the degree, Emphasis on research, Better opportunity for higher study overseas, Greater opportunity for postgraduate research, Stronger academic focus (+ other really minor things: location/breath/travel time etc.)
Personally, my end goal is to do a mixture of clinical work and research, something that aligns more closely with Melbourne than Monash.
(If I was in fact set on doing pure clinical work and was searching for an emphasis on the practical, then it would have been Monash without a doubt...)
At the end of the day, from a financial perspective, Monash is definitely the winner. In 7 years time you will have gotten 30k from your scholarship plus earned well over 100k as an intern and be debt free, whereas at UniMelb you will just be finishing your degree and still have around 25k of HECS debt remaining if you use your 15k from undergrad to pay it off.
However, in the long term/distant future, the deficit perhaps corresponds to 1 or 2 years of work (?). Also, there is a chance that Melbourne will have more graduate scholarships available in the future...
Samad/Istafa, I don't want this to affect your decisions - at the end of the day, the decision should be based on your personal situation, motivations and future aspiration.
Go to different unis so we can use you two as a study on whether Monash or UoM makes a better doctor :P
;D
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Putting BMP over CSP is pretty much the definition of a bad idea.
Don't put BMP over CSP, like Russ says, it's a bad idea, firstly because if you get CSP, you'll still end up with a BMP, either way, it limits you to BMP or nothing
Istafa, I'd personally recommend Monash. I think 5 years is a great advantage, if you're already deadset on being a doctor then go for it, it's a more integrated course and there's more of a family environment throughout the clinical years.
Personally, even if I had a 99.90/95 I'd still strongly prefer Monash because it's really close to where I live (10 minute drive), it's a shorter course, which means less HECS debt, faster to get on with life...etc.
Medicine is long enough, especially when you factor in post-graduate (fellowship) training as well, it's basically 10-12 years already, adding on another 2 years might not be much, but when you're 32, it's probably a little different and knowing myself, if I were to take the Melbourne option, I'd probably be kicking myself when I'm 32-33 because I want to settle down and have a family and work already, not spend 2 more years in fellowship training
But either way, I think you'll be fine :) - there's no real advantages/disadvantages per se, just nifty things that tip it in favour of one option or the other
Bonded surely does tip the scales, but hey, look at it this way, you're doing a service to Australia by taking on a bonded medical place, that's how I think of it anyway, I'll be happy to work for 5 years in an area of shortage cause I know that I'm making a difference and contributing, btw, the areas aren't that bad, there are some which are around 50km or so from Melbourne :)
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Yeah. we both went UoM 1st pref. in the end, due to the added certainty and many of the reasons that mcchli has outlined.
@paulsterio.
you're right- the pros and cons of each are fairly balanced and ultimately we would have had a blast either way.
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Yeh I've gone UoM 1st pref as well.
mchli - "Better opportunity for higher study overseas, Greater opportunity for postgraduate research"
^^This is what tipped me in the end. It was a tough decision...and I spent hours discussing it with my careers department, but in the end, UoM came on top (that and the fact that I haven't been offered a Monash place yet). However, I'm reassured by the fact that I would have been happy going to either university.
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Fair enough! :D Good luck there hehe.
A fair number of ppl went Melbourne out of the Chancellors dudes.
I went Monash despite mchli's outlined reasons because I think that whilst Melbourne has better opportunity for higher study overseas, Monash is not far behind. As for postgrad research, I plan to do that with Melb uni once I finished my med degree - assuming I get into Monash! I also like how at Monash you have the option of the BMedSci at Year 3, so you can learn the biomedical sciences at Years 1 and 2, then do intense research on say pharmacology for Year 3 (and really learn pharmacology in depth). What really swung me most was the non-competitve learning environment and the scholarship - I doubt I could get a scholarship for the MD, it'd be just too competitive. Plus, personally I'd want to work with patients straight away in a clinical setting :D.
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Hi Thushan :D
good luck to you to!!! both degrees have real good advantages to them.
btw, who else picked Melb? (PM me)
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I picked Melb (my shameless bias is pretty obvious already though)
What really swung me most was the non-competitve learning environment
I still don't get this, I cannot imagine a more friendly and enjoyable environment than the one I've just spent three years in
Good luck to everyone regardless though, I trust you'll all be valuable members of the profession :)
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(I wish I could quote everything that's been said so far)
After spending countless hours weighing up all the factors, considering all future pathways, I'm considering UoM as first pref.
This was a really tough decision but in the end, what got me was a combination of these factors:
Quality of the degree, Emphasis on research, Better opportunity for higher study overseas, Greater opportunity for postgraduate research, Stronger academic focus (+ other really minor things: location/breath/travel time etc.)
Personally, my end goal is to do a mixture of clinical work and research, something that aligns more closely with Melbourne than Monash.
(If I was in fact set on doing pure clinical work and was searching for an emphasis on the practical, then it would have been Monash without a doubt...)
At the end of the day, from a financial perspective, Monash is definitely the winner. In 7 years time you will have gotten 30k from your scholarship plus earned well over 100k as an intern and be debt free, whereas at UniMelb you will just be finishing your degree and still have around 25k of HECS debt remaining if you use your 15k from undergrad to pay it off.
However, in the long term/distant future, the deficit perhaps corresponds to 1 or 2 years of work (?). Also, there is a chance that Melbourne will have more graduate scholarships available in the future...
Samad/Istafa, I don't want this to affect your decisions - at the end of the day, the decision should be based on your personal situation, motivations and future aspiration.
Go to different unis so we can use you two as a study on whether Monash or UoM makes a better doctor :P
;D
What exactly do you mean there is a chance there is a chance they will have more graduate scholarships?
There is a chance they will have less as well, what are you basing this off?
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Melbourne dudes told us at Chancellor's lunch.
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Really? Didn't hear, was getting uncomfortably swamped by Media and missed the majority of the lunch though... I think BSci is possible in 2 years no?
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It is, and I tried to make a program for it and showed student centre. Got rudely turned away though.
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It is, and I tried to make a program for it and showed student centre. Got rudely turned away though.
that's why you go with monash, they're so much nicer, i asked them about overloading in order to do a concurrent Arts degree and they said that it's fine if my ATAR is high enough :D
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Yeah. we both went UoM 1st pref. in the end, due to the added certainty and many of the reasons that mcchli has outlined.
damn, so we can't conduct a study on which twin will come out as the better doctor!! D:
i swear, we're letting such a good research opportunity pass, how often do we get twins getting into medicine?!
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Melbourne dudes told us at Chancellor's lunch.
Honestly, I'd take anything they tell you with a grain of salt they were after all trying to sell the university to you.
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Yeah. we both went UoM 1st pref. in the end, due to the added certainty and many of the reasons that mcchli has outlined.
damn, so we can't conduct a study on which twin will come out as the better doctor!! D:
i swear, we're letting such a good research opportunity pass, how often do we get twins getting into medicine?!
LOL :D
Hey thushan, can you send me the program on PM? I'm guessing that you'll probably miss out on a lot in doing it in 2 years but anyway.
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Yeah. we both went UoM 1st pref. in the end, due to the added certainty and many of the reasons that mcchli has outlined.
damn, so we can't conduct a study on which twin will come out as the better doctor!! D:
i swear, we're letting such a good research opportunity pass, how often do we get twins getting into medicine?!
LOL :D
Hey thushan, can you send me the program on PM? I'm guessing that you'll probably miss out on a lot in doing it in 2 years but anyway.
Yeah, if I were to do it in three years I planned to do a program that made me eligible for three majors - medicinal chemistry, pharmacology and physiology. If I were to do it in two, I could only major in pharmacology. However, I spoke with melbourne in trying to do the degree in 2 years, by taking 6 subjects in each semester for first year, then 5 subjects in each semester for second year...the lady in the student centre looked at me as though I was an idiot and said flat out that I can't do that.
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No offense, but I support her. Do not do your degree in 2 years.
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No offence taken mate :P but why so?
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Yeah, if I were to do it in three years I planned to do a program that made me eligible for three majors - medicinal chemistry, pharmacology and physiology. If I were to do it in two, I could only major in pharmacology. However, I spoke with melbourne in trying to do the degree in 2 years, by taking 6 subjects in each semester for first year, then 5 subjects in each semester for second year...the lady in the student centre looked at me as though I was an idiot and said flat out that I can't do that.
Just saying even if you do the subjects for more than one major in science, they will only credit your for one major... i know people who have tried
As for why you don't want to do it in two years (like russ said.... just don't) you should chill out and relax a bit in your undergrad, the MD will be intense enough, have fun in uni, join a shitload of clubs and meet people,. not saying that you can't do this if you're doing more subjects (and knowing you'll you'll cope) but trust me you're not going to regret one less year of working (although granted this is the perspective of someone with a three year degree and amazed that a third of his degree is already over, as opposed to you med guys who will be in uni for a decade haha)
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The whole point of going to UoM over Monash is that you get to experience a relaxed undergraduate degree and find out where your priorities lie. Cramming 2 extra subjects into a semester is not going to let you do that.
It's also not possible, given the fact that MCB/HSF run in single semesters and they're prerequisites for the third year subjects.
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^ The whole reason I could do my degree in 2 years was cause I was able to do 'Group Theory' after Accelerated Maths 1. The year after, they changed the prereqs of Group Theory to BOTH accel maths 1 and 2. Maybe they're trying to say something. :P
edit: oh and I would like to add that I was still very relaxed in my 2 years :D
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Hmmm.. In the chancellor's scholars program details on UoM website, they say it will allow you to have academic enhancement oppurtunities and guarenteed internships. My brother phoned and they said that they aren't completely sure what this could mean yet. Bit dubious, but it could mean that there are ways to finish your degree faster. (This is all pretty much random, and slightly optimistic, speculation, but anyways) Any thoughts?
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I can say with close to 100% certainty that they do not mean finishing your degree faster. What it means is something like giving chancellor's scholars mentors from the postgrad degrees so they can enhance their understanding of their future and what they'll be doing etc. (this is a real thing btw)
edit: oh and I would like to add that I was still very relaxed in my 2 years :D
Tell me if I'm wrong here, but I get the feeling that pure maths would be easier to chronically overload because it's low hour requirements and very conceptually based assessment (eg once you've seen one differential equation you've seen them all etc.). I can't imagine overloading MCB/HSF + 2 extra subjects, or doing my entire major + 2 extra in one semester etc.
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^ It depends on what you're good at. That is certainly the case for me, I am much more comfortable learning maths. But there are definitely many people who are doing biological sciences who can hardly get through first year maths, let alone a maths major. So whilst given that they do understand it, it may be easy to learn the rest, but understanding it in the first place may pose a real challenge. I have a friend who goes to lectures and plays on his DS and somehow manages to get H1 with no study during the semester and a bit of revision before exams. I could certainly not do that.
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Hmmm.. In the chancellor's scholars program details on UoM website, they say it will allow you to have academic enhancement oppurtunities and guarenteed internships. My brother phoned and they said that they aren't completely sure what this could mean yet. Bit dubious, but it could mean that there are ways to finish your degree faster. (This is all pretty much random, and slightly optimistic, speculation, but anyways) Any thoughts?
As this is the first year they're offering the whole chancellors program, i would keep asking them for stuff, they have a vague idea of what they're doing but it's up to you to push their boundaries and seeing as they're leaning as it goes you'll have the best chance of any to get as much stuff as possible done for you as the guinea pigs , as opposed to late years when the mould is more set, that was the case for the copland scholars this year as we are the first lot of coplanders
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I have a friend who goes to lectures and plays on his DS
LOL! why would he go to lectures if he can just play his DS at home?
Tell me if I'm wrong here, but I get the feeling that pure maths would be easier to chronically overload because it's low hour requirements and very conceptually based assessment (eg once you've seen one differential equation you've seen them all etc.). I can't imagine overloading MCB/HSF + 2 extra subjects, or doing my entire major + 2 extra in one semester etc.
i would agree with this, just looking at the course handbook, there's no practical/labs which technically should make timetabling and finding time to study a little bit easier. (correct me if i'm wrong) i also think that there's less theory work which you have to learn as compared to biology/chemistry-ish subjects
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Well yeah, of course there's less theory. Maths is about concepts, biology is about memorisation. My point was that just cause there's less theory doesn't make it a more 'relaxing' course. If you can't get the theory then you're gonna be trying to study an hour or 2 a day and hardly understand it at all. The other point being if said friend tried to overload bio subjects he'd probs still be relaxed since he has some genius memory.
And he goes to lectures because he can actually hear and remember the stuff being taught despite playing on his DS...unfair I know :P
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biology is about memorisation
Principles mate, principles, not memory :P
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I'd like to disagree. You don't know what uni 'bio' is like. I mean some subjects are pretty easy like physiology, where it is mainly 'principles', but if you do 1st year bio or anatomy, it is like 100% memory. No principles.
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Literally any third year biology major is just rote learning memory work, but oh well :(
And I play my DS/iPod in lectures all the time, it keeps you from falling asleep completely!
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I can say with close to 100% certainty that they do not mean finishing your degree faster. What it means is something like giving chancellor's scholars mentors from the postgrad degrees so they can enhance their understanding of their future and what they'll be doing etc. (this is a real thing btw)
Can you please elaborate on what sorts of things these mentors would do? Any help would be appreciated. :)
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The program hasn't been finalized yet (hence why there's no info), but it's essentially up to the mentors and their students to decide what to talk about/do/etc.
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Thx. A bit weird that full details about a scholarships arnet even finalised and students are coming in. Oh well , guniea pigs can sometimes get unforseen advantages... :)
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Eh? The scholarship details are finalized, you'll get fees waived and the money each year?
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Finances are finalized :)
The uni doesn't elaborate on "academic enhancement opportunties" and "guaranteed internship"- phoned a student adviser and he was unsure about the details
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Fair enough! :D Good luck there hehe.
A fair number of ppl went Melbourne out of the Chancellors dudes.
I went Monash despite mchli's outlined reasons because I think that whilst Melbourne has better opportunity for higher study overseas, Monash is not far behind. As for postgrad research, I plan to do that with Melb uni once I finished my med degree - assuming I get into Monash! I also like how at Monash you have the option of the BMedSci at Year 3, so you can learn the biomedical sciences at Years 1 and 2, then do intense research on say pharmacology for Year 3 (and really learn pharmacology in depth). What really swung me most was the non-competitve learning environment and the scholarship - I doubt I could get a scholarship for the MD, it'd be just too competitive. Plus, personally I'd want to work with patients straight away in a clinical setting :D.
hey thushan, how do you do postgrad research with melbourne afterwards?
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Apply to do a PhD with Melbourne or one of the parkville research institutions that are affiliated with them