ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: jazza97 on May 05, 2012, 07:36:15 pm
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I understand we have a diverse community here at ATARnotes and this topic has certainly caused some controversy in recent weeks with the whole Jeff Kennett 'political correctness' opinion.
Obviously having Prayer Rooms creates, equality and encourages acceptance and diversity. My question/debate is whether this is necessary for sport. Do we therefore have to make allowances for Jewish, Christian, Feminist sects and does this become a problem and segregate the audience.
I am actually for having prayer rooms, but it would be great to hear all sides to this debate-especially those against it.
Please note, nothing that i have written has been intended to be racist, sexist or carry any other negative connotations whatsoever.
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Do we therefore have to make allowances for Jewish, Christian, Feminist sects and does this become a problem and segregate the audience.
Out of curiosity, since when was feminism a religion and if not, why do they need prayer rooms (or similar)? ???
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Do we therefore have to make allowances for Jewish, Christian, Feminist sects and does this become a problem and segregate the audience.
Out of curiosity, since when was feminism a religion and if not, why do they need prayer rooms (or similar)? ???
Some might say a clean bathroom to chat or gossip in is equivalent to a prayer room for women. Having said that, toilets at the G could be improved :)
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Well it looks like you're for prayer rooms, so I'll just bring out some against points so you can look at them and discuss, find flaws in them or whatever :P
1) Prayer rooms cost money, which can be used to improve services such as bathrooms which will be used by a larger proportion of the public
2) Is it necessary to have prayer rooms at sporting venues, if so, then why don't we have prayer rooms at other places such as supermarkets as well?
3) What about the whole notion of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" - do we, as a country, have a responsibility to promote diversity, or will diversity come by itself?
4) Could it be possible that prayer rooms will create even more division in society?
5) Are we being neutral when buillding a prayer room, for example, what's to stop another religious sect saying that prayer rooms are specifically for the Jewish or Christian, and that their religion has been marginalised and not supported?
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Just a thought, but I reakon religious sports fans might like the idea of a prayer room. They can go there to pray when their team is losing ahaha.
Also, maybe Im not too sure about what a prayer room entails but how does it cost money? Obviously room space is needed, and there would be some sort of upkeep needed but would that be a lot of money seriously?
Airports, universities and Shopping Centres (I think, cant name any more places though LOL) have prayer rooms, why cant Sporting Stadiums? I dont really see how having them can affect other people significantly either.
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Like, ok, my real opinion on this issue is that I think it's just completely random, like, do we really need specialised prayer rooms?
Btw, kaz, apparently you can study in the Monash prayer room, must try that out some day :P
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Well it looks like you're for prayer rooms, so I'll just bring out some against points so you can look at them and discuss, find flaws in them or whatever :P
1) Prayer rooms cost money, which can be used to improve services such as bathrooms which will be used by a larger proportion of the public
2) Is it necessary to have prayer rooms at sporting venues, if so, then why don't we have prayer rooms at other places such as supermarkets as well?
3) What about the whole notion of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" - do we, as a country, have a responsibility to promote diversity, or will diversity come by itself?
4) Could it be possible that prayer rooms will create even more division in society?
5) Are we being neutral when buillding a prayer room, for example, what's to stop another religious sect saying that prayer rooms are specifically for the Jewish or Christian, and that their religion has been marginalised and not supported?
as for no.1.. You need to look in the long term of things, yes it will cost money, but how many religious people do you think don't show up to games because they will miss out on prayer, it will also attract more of the religious people who follow sport to the actual game and will therefore bring revenue to the sporting industry.. You néed to think long term..
As for no.2.. Alot of other places do have prayer rooms and so it is time that the sporting industry follow that,
as for no.3, lolll, I have no idea but I'm assuming that Australia wants to embrace multiculturilasm and so why do you think they celebrate harmony day? Especially at school etc, that shows that yhe government does want to embrace diversity and doing this would be one way of it..
As for no.4,, how will prayer room create more division in society?? That just doesn't make sense?
As for no.5, what you need to understand is that a Prayer room, is a prayer room, all they need is a spare room, with like a cupboard fille with prayer mats for the different religions etc and therefore it can serve as a multireligiom prayer room, what they may need to account for is the fact that they need separate prayer rooms for females and males..
So as you can see, I'm for the prayer rooms as I believe that it is a really good idea to being many different ethnicicities and religions to enjoy a game of sport :)
lol, btw I hope I didn't sound too rude.. If so, I'm sorry.
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as for no.1.. You need to look in the long term of things, yes it will cost money, but how many religious people do you think don't show up to games because they will miss out on prayer, it will also attract more of the religious people who follow sport to the actual game and will therefore bring revenue to the sporting industry.. You néed to think long term..
uh.. how many religious people do you think won't show up to a game cause they miss out on prayer? I think that number is very small. Also, seeing as a growing number of the youth are embracing agnosticism, athiesm, or a pure indifference when it comes to religion, thinking 'long term' could be an argument against your contention if this trend continues (which I believe it will).
Furthermore, it could even discourage some racist people from attending the game, and seeing as your key argument was revenue generation, this may not be a desirable thing from your point of view.
As for no.2.. Alot of other places do have prayer rooms and so it is time that the sporting industry follow that
Why does this mean that the sporting industry needs to follow? Just because 'other places' are doing it? Does that mean I should start injecting meth into my eyeballs if everyone else starts doing it? Just because 'other places' are doing it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. (Not saying that it shouldn't be done, but saying that 'other places' have prayer rooms isn't enough - for me at least)
As for no.4,, how will prayer room create more division in society?? That just doesn't make sense?
It does make sense, creating prayer rooms has great potential for segregation. Many people judge you on your faith, and (for some) it can change their entire opinion of you to the point where they don't want to be in your presence. There are other reasons why I believe these prayer rooms have the capacity to create division but they just seem rather obvious - to me at least.
As for no.5, what you need to understand is that a Prayer room, is a prayer room, all they need is a spare room, with like a cupboard fille with prayer mats for the different religions etc and therefore it can serve as a multireligiom prayer room, what they may need to account for is the fact that they need separate prayer rooms for females and males..
What you need to understand is that religious differences are often a breeding ground for conflict. You want to put muslims, jews and christians in the same room to pray? Isn't the potential for some people to feel uncomfortable obvious? Why not avoid this potential conflict all together by not having these prayer rooms installed? How many people are going to not attend a great game of football just because they can't pray for a couple of hours.
So as you can see, I'm for the prayer rooms as I believe that it is a really good idea to being many different ethnicicities and religions to enjoy a game of sport :)
Why does there need to be a prayer room for people of different ethnicities and religions to enjoy a game of sport? Since when has footy not brought people of different values together? Prayer rooms are more likely to segregate than bridge the disparity. The game itself has always removed religious divisions through a mutal hatred of a common enemy in Collingwood (or whoever the opposing side is) - prayer rooms may even have the potential to remind people of their differences.
lol, btw I hope I didn't sound too rude.. If so, I'm sorry.
I tried very hard not to sound rude, but I wanted to, because I disagree with you thoroughly - but hey, we're all entitled to our opinions <3
Also, who'd want to pray in a separate prayer room during a footy much anyway?
over and out xo
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Is it just me, or does everyone else agree too, that it's kinda weird to pray during a sporting game, like, what's it gonna be like, you're watching sport, then you get up and exit and go pray and then come back and continue watching?
Like with unis and stuff, I understand because you spend so much time there, but with sports, you're only spending like say 2-3 hours at the MCG, max, so why would you even NEED a prayer room?
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
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yes but how many muslims are gonna do that in the middle of a game...
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I don't see why anyone would care, it's a multi-faith prayer room - that is, anyone can use it. If it's mostly muslims using it then so be it. It's not going to affect you, so why would it bother you... besides, all they need is a spare room - cost isn't really a factor, and as someone mentioned earlier, more religious people are likely to come to the AFL if they can go at half-time and do their prayers, or w/e.
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I don't see why anyone would care, it's a multi-faith prayer room - that is, anyone can use it. If it's mostly muslims using it then so be it. It's not going to affect you, so why would it bother you... besides, all they need is a spare room - cost isn't really a factor, and as someone mentioned earlier, more religious people are likely to come to the AFL if they can go at half-time and do their prayers, or w/e.
I agree with this, I don't have much of a problem with it. It's not going to make much of a difference anyway, the only one being potentially attracting a few more people to come to a game.
yes but how many muslims are gonna do that in the middle of a game...
Think, if Aus vs Pakistan in a Test match at the G (just an example, not being racist or anything), there will be a fair amount of prayer room use on those Test days imo. And even if not, what's the harm?
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8
Racist skinheads with no education somehow support your point? Really, it only discredits it.
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8
Racist skinheads with no education somehow support your point? Really, it only discredits it.
Yeah.
JellyDonut, that video has nothing to do with the issue of prayer rooms and doesn't justify your post. If you want to be a racist and generalising, please keep it to yourself.
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Didnt really read the other comments, but i don't think it's necessary to have them. People come to the MCG to watch sport, not to pray. For the most part, the MCG is used for AFL and most afl supporters are fairly die hard so i dont think they would just leave to pray. As someone said above, there are costs involved with that, there are probably rooms that could be converted into a prayer room but it would be more beneficial for the afl/mcg to use those rooms for other things. Also it wouldn't increase attendance of afl games by a lot anyway. The only reason you don't see a 100,000 crowd during H&A season is that a lot of the MCC members dont turn up :/ The big games will always attract 70k+ but after that it really depends on the mcc member turn out. Although it may sound ignorant, but i dont think the mcg directors or whoever would really care about the minority of supporters because tbh money is what drives them in the end :P
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8
Racist skinheads with no education somehow support your point? Really, it only discredits it.
It's not meant to support my point or any point you somehow attached to my post
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PL1jDcAHkc8
Racist skinheads with no education somehow support your point? Really, it only discredits it.
It's not meant to support my point or any point you somehow attached to my post
Then why post it?
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To explain the reference in which the term "Muslam" came from, something I used in jest - which clearly went over your head (as well as the other guy who is somehow convinced that I'm a racist)
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Didnt really read the other comments, but i don't think it's necessary to have them. People come to the MCG to watch sport, not to pray. For the most part, the MCG is used for AFL and most afl supporters are fairly die hard so i dont think they would just leave to pray. As someone said above, there are costs involved with that, there are probably rooms that could be converted into a prayer room but it would be more beneficial for the afl/mcg to use those rooms for other things. Also it wouldn't increase attendance of afl games by a lot anyway. The only reason you don't see a 100,000 crowd during H&A season is that a lot of the MCC members dont turn up :/ The big games will always attract 70k+ but after that it really depends on the mcc member turn out. Although it may sound ignorant, but i dont think the mcg directors or whoever would really care about the minority of supporters because tbh money is what drives them in the end :P
Totally agree with you. People come to the MCG to watch sport and if they decide to build a prayer room then the AFL will attract unwanted attention from religious groups. Also with a diverse culture within the AFL as well as the supporters... I don't think it's necessary as they just want to watch :)
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
@JellyDonut i'm not sure if it was intentional or not but you spelled Muslim wrong and it's very offensive the way you spelled it "Muslambs"
@VegemitePi how is it derogatory that we have certain times of prayer and we leave everything that we are doing to go and pray? It doesn't make sense really. We pray five times a day and have a specific time to for each prayer, whilst most of the prayer (4/5) have a certain time frame that we can pray between there is one that we must complete as soon as it is time to. I don't understand how us praying at specific times can be disrespectful or derogatory in any kind of way.
In general I believe that there is no harm for having prayer rooms at a sports venue. The fact that some people leave during the game and come back to pray shouldn't really affect anyone else, plus as if they know what anyone leaves for anyway. This is a multicultural country and therefore providing a prayer room for people who are religious and also big footy fans shouldn't be an issue. I mean why should anyone have problems with some people who want to go and pray? How does this affect anyone in any kind of way?
I can't even believe people are debating about this because it is obvious that prayer rooms are not going to hurt anyone if anything it allows people from diverse background to enjoy a game and carry on with their own religious practices. However I do believe that one room would be a bit awkward for differing religious groups and therefore there should be separate provisions.
@swarley prayer rooms are necessary because whilst Christians and Jews don't have set prayer time us Muslims do. People can come to the MCG to watch sport and carry out their religious customs. For example during Ramadan (which has different timing every year and sometimes falls
within the footy season or other sports if not that) a lot of Muslim fans may not be able to attend because they need to pray and open their fasts. If there was a room for prayer then this would not be the case and they can enjoy the game and pray/break fast in the prayer room , and once that is done return to watch remaining of the game. It's a win win situation
Honestly don't see why anyone can have a problem with this. And people who are talking money how much money is it going to take? Not much, especially if you say there is a minority then that minority wouldn't need much space would they?
Personally if I wanted to watch a match but this would interfere with my prayer then I would not attend (and i'm a big footy fan). Had there been a prayer room I could just watch the game and leave when I need to pray and come back
It's only fair that a prayer room be built to address the diverse community that Australia has :)
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
@JellyDonut i'm not sure if it was intentional or not but you spelled Muslim wrong and it's very offensive the way you spelled it "Muslambs"
@VegemitePi how is it derogatory that we have certain times of prayer and we leave everything that we are doing to go and pray?
I was referring to the spelling actually...
In general I believe that there is no harm for having prayer rooms at a sports venue. The fact that some people leave during the game and come back to pray shouldn't really affect anyone else, plus as if they know what anyone leaves for anyway. This is a multicultural country and therefore providing a prayer room for people who are religious and also big footy fans shouldn't be an issue. I mean why should anyone have problems with some people who want to go and pray? How does this affect anyone in any kind of way?
My contention exactly, if it has no harm and can only be a positive sign of acceptance, then I have no problem with it.
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^Muslambs have designated prayer times where they drop everything to pray.
That's just derogatory.
@JellyDonut i'm not sure if it was intentional or not but you spelled Muslim wrong and it's very offensive the way you spelled it "Muslambs"
@VegemitePi how is it derogatory that we have certain times of prayer and we leave everything that we are doing to go and pray? It doesn't make sense really. We pray five times a day and have a specific time to for each prayer, whilst most of the prayer (4/5) have a certain time frame that we can pray between there is one that we must complete as soon as it is time to. I don't understand how us praying at specific times can be disrespectful or derogatory in any kind of way.
In general I believe that there is no harm for having prayer rooms at a sports venue. The fact that some people leave during the game and come back to pray shouldn't really affect anyone else, plus as if they know what anyone leaves for anyway. This is a multicultural country and therefore providing a prayer room for people who are religious and also big footy fans shouldn't be an issue. I mean why should anyone have problems with some people who want to go and pray? How does this affect anyone in any kind of way?
I can't even believe people are debating about this because it is obvious that prayer rooms are not going to hurt anyone if anything it allows people from diverse background to enjoy a game and carry on with their own religious practices. However I do believe that one room would be a bit awkward for differing religious groups and therefore there should be separate provisions.
@swarley prayer rooms are necessary because whilst Christians and Jews don't have set prayer time us Muslims do. People can come to the MCG to watch sport and carry out their religious customs. For example during Ramadan (which has different timing every year and sometimes falls
within the footy season or other sports if not that) a lot of Muslim fans may not be able to attend because they need to pray and open their fasts. If there was a room for prayer then this would not be the case and they can enjoy the game and pray/break fast in the prayer room , and once that is done return to watch remaining of the game. It's a win win situation
Honestly don't see why anyone can have a problem with this. And people who are talking money how much money is it going to take? Not much, especially if you say there is a minority then that minority wouldn't need much space would they?
Personally if I wanted to watch a match but this would interfere with my prayer then I would not attend (and i'm a big footy fan). Had there been a prayer room I could just watch the game and leave when I need to pray and come back
It's only fair that a prayer room be built to address the diverse community that Australia has :)
Whats the difference between a regular room and a prayer room? Couldn't somewhere like the MCG or SCG with their exclusive clubs and conference rooms and what have you just say "Okay this is prayer room for this match"? Why does it need to be a brand new room? I'm not saying its a bad idea I'm just wondering why it has to be a prayer room.
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Whats the difference between a regular room and a prayer room? Couldn't somewhere like the MCG or SCG with their exclusive clubs and conference rooms and what have you just say "Okay this is prayer room for this match"? Why does it need to be a brand new room? I'm not saying its a bad idea I'm just wondering why it has to be a prayer room.
I think there are some who believe a "prayer room" should be very plain (ie. white walls and dull carpet/tiles) without much (if any) furniture present. But it's a good point.
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Lol this thread has just been one long series of misunderstandings.
(That was directed @JellyDonut mainly, did not sound like a jest :P).
Summation of the issue - if the AFL feels that it should put in a prayer room in stadiums, then it's perfectly fine for them to do so. With that said, I don't think they have any obligation to do so and as such, it should only be implemented at their discretion.
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Thanks for clarifying that VegemitePi I was beginning to think you were very racist against Muslims...
@MynameIsBob its needs to be a prayer room because we (I'm only representing the Muslims here don't know about the others) pray in a clean place, using a mat in a specific direction with nothing in front. You use an old room like a conference room to a pray in if they would allow and this wouldn't be a problem with us, however it cannot have pictures up in the direction we are praying in. It would therefore just be easier to make a new room that is used just for praying. For example at home when i'm praying i need to make sure i don't have certain things in front of me, if there are pictures in a room we don't pray in that room.
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If this prayer room is for all religions then couldn't that result in a conflict between people with diff. religions?
My point: If a prayer room won't make the AFL/MCG/AFL clubs any more money they do without it then they won't go ahead with it. End of story. Sorry if that sounds harsh/ignorant whatever you want to call it, but it's the truth.
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My point: If a prayer room won't make the AFL/MCG/AFL clubs any more money they do without it then they won't go ahead with it. End of story. Sorry if that sounds harsh/ignorant whatever you want to call it, but it's the truth.
It's a pretty blatant attempt to tap into the muslim market by catering to their specific requirements, so I'm pretty sure that cost isn't going to be a factor
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@JellyDonut that video you posted says sooooo much about you as a person
I am so sick of people pointing fingers against Muslims, yes there has been an incident where a Muslim did not do the correct thing however that does not mean you judge others by a few peoples actions. Especially living in Australia you should learn to respect everyone's culture and appreciate the diverse people that surround you. We all dress different, eat different, look different but at the end of the day we are all human beings. Why can't we all just put our cultural differences aside and treat each other with respect, the way everyone should be treated. And why is it that this debate began as an issue about prayer rooms and you begin attacking Muslims first with "Muslambs" and then with the video?
I hope you're being sarcastic, chiral. It's blatantly obvious that that video JellyDonut posted was done so in an attempt to mock that skinhead
The video was meant to be funny; JellyDonut was simply exposing the guy's complete and utter stupidity so it could be laughed at.
Pull your head out of your ass
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If this prayer room is for all religions then couldn't that result in a conflict between people with diff. religions?
My point: If a prayer room won't make the AFL/MCG/AFL clubs any more money they do without it then they won't go ahead with it. End of story. Sorry if that sounds harsh/ignorant whatever you want to call it, but it's the truth.
Well like i said i don't agree with a prayer for everyone but one that is separate ones.
Secondly, who said the point of a prayer room was to make money?That is just stupid and should not be the intention when making a prayer room. It is to allow everyone who wants to watch the footy or any other match but has religious commitments to attend and enjoy the game whilst being able to take part in religious customs. I gave an example in one of the earlier post where i also stated that if my prayer time clashed with the time the match would be on then I would not attend and if there was provisions then this would just make it fair and easier for everyone.
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It is to allow everyone who wants to watch the footy or any other match but has religious commitments to attend and enjoy the game whilst being able to take part in religious customs.
exactly... to entice muslim footy fans to attend and therefore make money
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Secondly, who said the point of a prayer room was to make money?That is just stupid and should not be the intention when making a prayer room.
Someone said it earlier. If the AFL wasn't driven by greed for money they would have extra time for Grand Finals that end up in draws instead of making the teams replay it next week and selling 100,000 more tickets.
I gave an example in one of the earlier post where i also stated that if my prayer time clashed with the time the match would be on then I would not attend and if there was provisions then this would just make it fair and easier for everyone.
I would imagine that you are in a very small minority, then.
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I hope you're being sarcastic, chiral. It's blatantly obvious that that video JellyDonut posted was done so in an attempt to mock that skinhead
The video was meant to be funny; JellyDonut was simply exposing the guy's complete and utter stupidity so it could be laughed at.
Pull your head out of your ass
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@Nirbaan firstly i don't think this was necessary : Pull your head out of your ass
secondly what 'skinhead' i thought the 'skinhead' was JellyDonut? To me it seems like he was being racist.
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It was necessary, chiral. I believe the best way to expose someone's blatant ignorance is through mockery.
The skinhead was the british guy in the video JellyDonut posted.
JellyDonut was not being racist, stop jumping to conclusions. It's almost as if you're looking for a conflict situation where you can stand up for your faith.
Also, since when was 'muslamb' a slur against muslims?
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Okay no, this thread is obviously not going to go well so in the interests of keeping things civil and polite here, I'm locking it.