ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: appianway on May 05, 2009, 07:35:57 pm
-
So, what does everyone think about the new selective school?
-
I think it is really stupid because they become very selective by choosing the best of the best.
These selective schools don't give average students the chance, when i mean average i mean 80+ average...
its unfair by selecting only the best/
Im not saying go ahead and select total idiots and hooligans but be reasonable and give other students the chance also...
-
What exactly do you mean by giving other students a chance though? Even if you abolished all these selective schools, these exact same students will just be elsewhere in other schools still achieving the same scores, whilst probably eating away at your SAC ranking even.
-
I think its a great idea.
-
I think its a great idea.
+1
Hopefully less MHS dickheads being rude pricks on the train home from Uni (as they can go to Bezza instead)
-
I think its a great idea.
+1
Hopefully less MHS dickheads being rude pricks on the train home from Uni (as they can go to Bezza instead)
Haha I want details of these dickheads.
Just the general group of asians talking really loudly about their latest DoTA exploits or something more sinister?
Or the curries discussing dreamteam tactics about a game they really do not understand?
-
They just stand in the doorway, and dont move down the carriage and just are really loud and obnoxious.
This one guy yesterday was just sittin in the middle of the doorway blocking everyone so he cood read his paper.
Then this other MHS guy got up off a seat for this old lady and then this other MHS dude just jumped on the seat and made the old lady stand who was too embarrased to say anything.
Just the general "i have 2 be 3cms away from my friends all time on the train really shits me"
The girls from Sacred Heart have to take the cake though. I've seen people doing Long Jump over there bags which create mountains in the walkways because they're too rude to put them under their seats or hold them.
-
I think it is really stupid because they become very selective by choosing the best of the best.
These selective schools don't give average students the chance, when i mean average i mean 80+ average...
its unfair by selecting only the best/
Im not saying go ahead and select total idiots and hooligans but be reasonable and give other students the chance also...
In my opinion, the reason why selective schools are such positive environments is because of the calibre of the students who attend them. When you have intelligent students, you're able to cover different course content and work at a faster pace. If you let the average Joe into a selective school, they're not going to benefit from the environment and they're going to hold everyone else back.
Does anyone think that the new selective school will attain higher academic results than the other two? Personally, I don't think it has a chance (for the meantime, anyway), but it'll be interesting to see what happens.
-
I think it is really stupid because they become very selective by choosing the best of the best.
These selective schools don't give average students the chance, when i mean average i mean 80+ average...
its unfair by selecting only the best/
Im not saying go ahead and select total idiots and hooligans but be reasonable and give other students the chance also...
In my opinion, the reason why selective schools are such positive environments is because of the calibre of the students who attend them. When you have intelligent students, you're able to cover different course content and work at a faster pace. If you let the average Joe into a selective school, they're not going to benefit from the environment and they're going to hold everyone else back.
Does anyone think that the new selective school will attain higher academic results than the other two? Personally, I don't think it has a chance (for the meantime, anyway), but it'll be interesting to see what happens.
I disagree with the bold bit and I think you'd find research would disagree with you too. Although I agree with everything else.
-
Costa, I beg to differ. My research is only anecdotal - I've noticed that the kids at Mac.Rob who significantly lag behind the others end up becoming disengaged with their schoastic pursuits. In year 9, one of the girls remarked that she had no clue what was going on in English class - she couldn't follow the discussion and wasn't familiar with the lexicon being used by her peers.
This girl probably sits at the 80th percentile in comparison to the rest of the state. Now she feels like she's dumb and is reluctant to participate in class.
Look, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in my opinion, it's just not fair to put people into that position. She'd be better off in an environment where she'd be able to keep up to date and be engaged in what she does.
-
They just stand in the doorway, and dont move down the carriage and just are really loud and obnoxious.
This one guy yesterday was just sittin in the middle of the doorway blocking everyone so he cood read his paper.
Then this other MHS guy got up off a seat for this old lady and then this other MHS dude just jumped on the seat and made the old lady stand who was too embarrased to say anything.
Just the general "i have 2 be 3cms away from my friends all time on the train really shits me"
The girls from Sacred Heart have to take the cake though. I've seen people doing Long Jump over there bags which create mountains in the walkways because they're too rude to put them under their seats or hold them.
haha a great way to sum up their arrogance. seriously, they are waay too cocky
-
So, what does everyone think about the new selective school?
haven't heard of it. is their some sort of advertisement or somthin?
-
Costa, I beg to differ. My research is only anecdotal - I've noticed that the kids at Mac.Rob who significantly lag behind the others end up becoming disengaged with their schoastic pursuits. In year 9, one of the girls remarked that she had no clue what was going on in English class - she couldn't follow the discussion and wasn't familiar with the lexicon being used by her peers.
This girl probably sits at the 80th percentile in comparison to the rest of the state. Now she feels like she's dumb and is reluctant to participate in class.
Look, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in my opinion, it's just not fair to put people into that position. She'd be better off in an environment where she'd be able to keep up to date and be engaged in what she does.
Does that mean I should drop out of UoM and go to a worse university so I feel smarter? Sometimes people's smartness in tutorials can be intimidating, but that just makes me want to try harder, and boosts my motivation to learn, personally.
-
costargh why don't you just get up and teach them a lesson?
Tell them off, thats what i would be doing, coming from the north :D
a good beat up wouldn't hurt....
-
They just stand in the doorway, and dont move down the carriage and just are really loud and obnoxious.
This one guy yesterday was just sittin in the middle of the doorway blocking everyone so he cood read his paper.
Then this other MHS guy got up off a seat for this old lady and then this other MHS dude just jumped on the seat and made the old lady stand who was too embarrased to say anything.
Just the general "i have 2 be 3cms away from my friends all time on the train really shits me"
The girls from Sacred Heart have to take the cake though. I've seen people doing Long Jump over there bags which create mountains in the walkways because they're too rude to put them under their seats or hold them.
nice metaphor ;)
-
"...strong students tend to increase peers’ academic performance and weak students tend to reduce it." (Winston & Zimmerman, 2003)
http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/DPs/DP-64.pdf (page 24)
I'm sure you could mind much more through Business Source Premier and ProQuest if you wished.
-
costargh why don't you just get up and teach them a lesson?
Tell them off, thats what i would be doing, coming from the north :D
I'm a non-confrontational person.
-
Costa, I beg to differ. My research is only anecdotal - I've noticed that the kids at Mac.Rob who significantly lag behind the others end up becoming disengaged with their schoastic pursuits. In year 9, one of the girls remarked that she had no clue what was going on in English class - she couldn't follow the discussion and wasn't familiar with the lexicon being used by her peers.
This girl probably sits at the 80th percentile in comparison to the rest of the state. Now she feels like she's dumb and is reluctant to participate in class.
Look, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in my opinion, it's just not fair to put people into that position. She'd be better off in an environment where she'd be able to keep up to date and be engaged in what she does.
Does that mean I should drop out of UoM and go to a worse university so I feel smarter? Sometimes people's smartness in tutorials can be intimidating, but that just makes me want to try harder, and boosts my motivation to learn, personally.
That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm trying to get at is that if you're sitting in a class and not understanding what's going on, you'd be better off at another institution. Learning something and feeling positive about yourself is better than being bewildered and feeling terrible.
-
They just stand in the doorway, and dont move down the carriage and just are really loud and obnoxious.
This one guy yesterday was just sittin in the middle of the doorway blocking everyone so he cood read his paper.
Then this other MHS guy got up off a seat for this old lady and then this other MHS dude just jumped on the seat and made the old lady stand who was too embarrased to say anything.
Just the general "i have 2 be 3cms away from my friends all time on the train really shits me"
The girls from Sacred Heart have to take the cake though. I've seen people doing Long Jump over there bags which create mountains in the walkways because they're too rude to put them under their seats or hold them.
if i was you i'd just push them over. they start something then it's on!
-
I should campaign for public transport etiquette to be introduced into the high school curriculum.
-
"...strong students tend to increase peers’ academic performance and weak students tend to reduce it." (Winston & Zimmerman, 2003)
http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/DPs/DP-64.pdf (page 24)
I'm sure you could mind much more through Business Source Premier and ProQuest if you wished.
I don't actually have time to read the whole article, but from my 30 second glance, it seems as though it's dealing with the motivation of students to achieve high scores/attain entrance to good universities.
Here are my questions (which, you know, could possibly be deduced fromm the article, but seeing as I should be doing homework...):
+Are the schools surveyed schools with exceptionally large percentages of students who perform farrrr above the average?
+Is motivation to attend tertiary institutions inherently linked with motivation to master coursework that doesn't affect SAT/GPA/ENTER results?
+Is the motivation of the higher performing students ever altered by the lower performing students?
+Do the teachers in such institutions target the coursework at highly able students, or are classes aimed at those who sit just above the national average?
+Are opportunities at high performing schools consistently given to a similar group of students (hence blocking lower performing students from gaining a broader education)?
-
I whole-heartedly support selective entry schools [even though I graduated from one of the lowest ranking school in Vic].
To say that selective-entry schools should not be built is the same as saying higher achieving students have a duty to help/motivate others around them. This does improve equality, but in doing so, the higher achieving students sacrifice the potential for higher academic enrichment as the curriculum will be targeted at the average Joe. This kind of equality is destructive, the separation is natural and reasonable, it is unfair to claim otherwise.
-
So, what does everyone think about the new selective school?
haven't heard of it. is their some sort of advertisement or somthin?
There was some talk about it some time ago. There's actually two new selective schools being built - one in Berwick and one in Wyndham (have no idea where that is). Here is a link I managed to google if it helps.
-
So, what does everyone think about the new selective school?
haven't heard of it. is their some sort of advertisement or somthin?
There was some talk about it some time ago. There's actually two new selective schools being built - one in Berwick and one in Wyndham (have no idea where that is). Here is a link I managed to google if it helps.
Wyndham is on the other side of the city; west side.
-
that's weird; the Berwick school will be in the Berwick Monash campus...
-
There should only be 1 selective school- building so many just loses it prestige. besides, it's a shit location.
-
Since when was selective schools about prestige? If you want prestige, go to a private school. Besides, Sydney has like 7 of them or something and there are still clear grades of 'prestige' among them (for example, the one with a bloody 99.55 UAI (ENTER) median).
-
Since when was selective schools about prestige? If you want prestige, go to a private school. Besides, Sydney has like 7 of them or something and there are still clear grades of 'prestige' among them (for example, the one with a bloody 99.55 UAI (ENTER) median).
From wikipedia
"According to the school's website, more than half of each year's graduating class ultimately pursue tertiary studies in law or medicine."
Whoa.....
-
Since when was selective schools about prestige? If you want prestige, go to a private school. Besides, Sydney has like 7 of them or something and there are still clear grades of 'prestige' among them (for example, the one with a bloody 99.55 UAI (ENTER) median).
I love that Agricultural School. It's a great concept! Would have loved to attend it. :D
Regarding the new Berwick/Wyndham selective schools, I don't see why they should not be built. They allow more opportunities for able students to receive education that is specifically targeted towards them and allows for their faster learning skills etc. The academic environment would be much more mentally stimulating and challenging than that provided at other schools. Also the location of the campuses would allow those who were reluctant to apply for Macrob/MHS because of distance issues to attend a selective entry school.
Everyone has different learning capabilities, and these schools just cater for them. Just as students with disabilities have special schools or a special curriculum tailored to meet their schooling needs, people who have above average academic skills should be allowed to be in an environment where they are nurtured and can reach their full potential.
(Although I do acknowledge disadvantages that arise, eg. elitism. You also kind of lose perspective - being in an environment where the bar is raised so high skews your perception of the world)
-
Since when was selective schools about prestige? If you want prestige, go to a private school. Besides, Sydney has like 7 of them or something and there are still clear grades of 'prestige' among them (for example, the one with a bloody 99.55 UAI (ENTER) median).
for their scores, few of their alumni are noted. I'd have thought many would become highly distinguished people in their fields..
As for selective schools, Monash is quite ambitious. It is currently building two schools, one in Berwick, and one in Clayton (the John Monash Science School). The prior will be more or less like MHS/MacRob, except with a much higher proportion of students partaking in enhancement studies. The JMSS is, as the name suggests, aimed at science development, probably heavily integrated with the university in senior years, and aimed at producing undergrad research candidates.
-
It's two years too late.
I didn't go to Macrob becuase it was too far and all-girls
and now they make a coed school in Berwick
ohwell I'm pretty happy with my school
*meh*
-
They just stand in the doorway, and dont move down the carriage and just are really loud and obnoxious.
This one guy yesterday was just sittin in the middle of the doorway blocking everyone so he cood read his paper.
Then this other MHS guy got up off a seat for this old lady and then this other MHS dude just jumped on the seat and made the old lady stand who was too embarrased to say anything.
Just the general "i have 2 be 3cms away from my friends all time on the train really shits me"
The girls from Sacred Heart have to take the cake though. I've seen people doing Long Jump over there bags which create mountains in the walkways because they're too rude to put them under their seats or hold them.
oh farken those Sacred Heart girls, literally cannot tell the difference between the year 7's and 12's all the same height.
anddd they make a shit load of noise, like noisiest noise i've ever heard, screeches and shit..i try to avoid them at all costs.
just a warning..never get on the two 3pm pakky trains (3.07 and 3.02 or something weird like that), painful stuff..
-
It's an interesting idea, I'm just peeved because they "copied" MHS and MGHS... =P
-
Costa, I beg to differ. My research is only anecdotal - I've noticed that the kids at Mac.Rob who significantly lag behind the others end up becoming disengaged with their schoastic pursuits. In year 9, one of the girls remarked that she had no clue what was going on in English class - she couldn't follow the discussion and wasn't familiar with the lexicon being used by her peers.
This girl probably sits at the 80th percentile in comparison to the rest of the state. Now she feels like she's dumb and is reluctant to participate in class.
Look, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in my opinion, it's just not fair to put people into that position. She'd be better off in an environment where she'd be able to keep up to date and be engaged in what she does.
Does that mean I should drop out of UoM and go to a worse university so I feel smarter? Sometimes people's smartness in tutorials can be intimidating, but that just makes me want to try harder, and boosts my motivation to learn, personally.
Sometimes I hoped for more academic competition to really push my limits in a subject. When there is competition you will reach your full potential (especially if you have an ego). UoM is MUCH more competitive than my high school and it's great because you get to see other people's view on the subject, people have something to say instead of leaving one person to carry the class.
Personally I would rather be in the middle of a top class instead instead of the top of a mediocre class. I am definately for more selective schools, I had a friend who was a very bright student, but because he found school so slow and boring he would sleep in classes or write calculator programs to solve problems.
-
Costa, I beg to differ. My research is only anecdotal - I've noticed that the kids at Mac.Rob who significantly lag behind the others end up becoming disengaged with their schoastic pursuits. In year 9, one of the girls remarked that she had no clue what was going on in English class - she couldn't follow the discussion and wasn't familiar with the lexicon being used by her peers.
This girl probably sits at the 80th percentile in comparison to the rest of the state. Now she feels like she's dumb and is reluctant to participate in class.
Look, I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but in my opinion, it's just not fair to put people into that position. She'd be better off in an environment where she'd be able to keep up to date and be engaged in what she does.
Does that mean I should drop out of UoM and go to a worse university so I feel smarter? Sometimes people's smartness in tutorials can be intimidating, but that just makes me want to try harder, and boosts my motivation to learn, personally.
Sometimes I hoped for more academic competition to really push my limits in a subject. When there is competition you will reach your full potential (especially if you have an ego). UoM is MUCH more competitive than my high school and it's great because you get to see other people's view on the subject, people have something to say instead of leaving one person to carry the class.
Personally I would rather be in the middle of a top class instead instead of the top of a mediocre class. I am definately for more selective schools, I had a friend who was a very bright student, but because he found school so slow and boring he would sleep in classes or write calculator programs to solve problems.
It's a double edged sword. Competition lets you push your boundaries, but it doesn't really help your emotional health. I never minded competition much but am enjoying the break from it right now.
-
I think its a good idea that they are building more selective schools. But with its supposed link with MHS and MacRob, it sort of ruins the "godliness" around the two schools because its building another two. But then again, I'm coming from the view of someone who has grown up being coerced into believing so...><
-
i guess its only normal that as population grows, so does the amount of selective schools
-
I think its a good idea that they are building more selective schools. But with its supposed link with MHS and MacRob, it sort of ruins the "godliness" around the two schools because its building another two. But then again, I'm coming from the view of someone who has grown up being coerced into believing so...><
I don't know, I think unless the child lives in the outer western/eastern suburbs, parents would prefer to send them to known and proven no. 1/2 ranked schools than a relatively new school...so that would maintain some of the proness of those schools.
In Sydney they have tons of selective schools, some are still acknowledged to be better than others. Eg. James Ruse Agricultural High School (wiki it) has a huge aura.
-
I think its a good idea that they are building more selective schools. But with its supposed link with MHS and MacRob, it sort of ruins the "godliness" around the two schools because its building another two. But then again, I'm coming from the view of someone who has grown up being coerced into believing so...><
I don't know, I think unless the child lives in the outer western/eastern suburbs, parents would prefer to send them to known and proven no. 1/2 ranked schools than a relatively new school...so that would maintain some of the proness of those schools.
In Sydney they have tons of selective schools, some are still acknowledged to be better than others. Eg. James Ruse Agricultural High School (wiki it) has a huge aura.
i agree, the location of the new schools aren't very good
-
I think its a good idea that they are building more selective schools. But with its supposed link with MHS and MacRob, it sort of ruins the "godliness" around the two schools because its building another two. But then again, I'm coming from the view of someone who has grown up being coerced into believing so...><
I don't know, I think unless the child lives in the outer western/eastern suburbs, parents would prefer to send them to known and proven no. 1/2 ranked schools than a relatively new school...so that would maintain some of the proness of those schools.
In Sydney they have tons of selective schools, some are still acknowledged to be better than others. Eg. James Ruse Agricultural High School (wiki it) has a huge aura.
i agree, the location of the new schools aren't very good
I believe the locations are great. I have a cousin who lives in Berwick and he says it's a dive with many teens smoking and drinking. He said his school was pretty crap and a lot of people (including him and his sister) drop out. So basically in that kind of environment you would expect academically gifted students to face a hard time at a normal school.
With all the great schools in the eastern suburbs it's pretty easy to do well, whereas in somewhere like Berwick it's probably much harder. In the eastern suburbs if you can get atleast a 90 you are doing good, in like Berwick you are doing great if you get atleast 80.
-
In the eastern suburbs if you can get atleast a 90 you are doing good, in like Berwick you are doing great if you get atleast 80.
I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think a school's culture can create the difference between 80 and 90. It can create some difference, but I don't think that many of the high 99 kids at elite private/selective schools would be getting 80s if they went to a local school in Berwick or Werribee. They may get less for one reason or another but they would still do well. Also remember that many of the people that succeed at selective schools have a local public primary school and local state secondary school background.
-
In the eastern suburbs if you can get atleast a 90 you are doing good, in like Berwick you are doing great if you get atleast 80.
I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think a school's culture can create the difference between 80 and 90. It can create some difference, but I don't think that many of the high 99 kids at elite private/selective schools would be getting 80s if they went to a local school in Berwick or Werribee. If they have a good work ethic they could even use the extra two hours study time (by eliminating travel) more effectively by going to a local school.
if you consider the teaching quality & resources the suburbian schools have compared to the eastern suburb school, there's no way someone can do better in these scools then a regular. sure there are some expections (Mao), but it's not as if there's not a reason that some schools have an 1 or 2 students receving a 40, compared to 30/40/50+ students.
-
In the eastern suburbs if you can get atleast a 90 you are doing good, in like Berwick you are doing great if you get atleast 80.
I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think a school's culture can create the difference between 80 and 90. It can create some difference, but I don't think that many of the high 99 kids at elite private/selective schools would be getting 80s if they went to a local school in Berwick or Werribee. They may get less for one reason or another but they would still do well. Also remember that many of the people that succeed at selective schools have a local public primary school and local state secondary school background.
I wasn't saying that people who can get a 99 will get an 80 if they went to a school in Berwick, I said they would have a hard time with their peers. My cousin told me that the general concensus is that students at Berwick schools do not encourage people to do well academically.
-
In the eastern suburbs if you can get atleast a 90 you are doing good, in like Berwick you are doing great if you get atleast 80.
I don't really agree with this statement. I don't think a school's culture can create the difference between 80 and 90. It can create some difference, but I don't think that many of the high 99 kids at elite private/selective schools would be getting 80s if they went to a local school in Berwick or Werribee. They may get less for one reason or another but they would still do well. Also remember that many of the people that succeed at selective schools have a local public primary school and local state secondary school background.
I think it can, especially when you have an isolated community (whether that be in outer suburbia or the country). VCE scores are largely about motivation and resources, and if you have students who really don't care either way, they're not going to do amazingly, irrespective of their intelligence. Certain environments will affect individuals differently, and you're always going to have the handful that
I think my cousin epitomises this. She did well - about 95 - but in primary school she was winning major prizes in national competitions, as well as high distinctions in the majority of competitions she entered. She's now at Melbourne Uni, attaining straight HDs whilst still maintaining a social life. If she'd been at an elite private school in VCE, she would've had a shot at high 99s, if not a 99.95 if she'd knuckled down. She worked in high school, but she wasn't really pushed to succeed and she could've done much better. That said, she didn't get dux of her high school - she just missed out, but her score's incredible considering the number of other things she did in the year (many of which were very social). She went to a country school which didn't have a very academic ethos (most of the kids who did end up going to University didn't even apply for G8 institutions and most didn't apply full stop).
To summarise my ramblings, everyone's affected differently by scenarios, but often the culture of a school will affect certain exceptionally intelligent individuals in a very negative manner.
-
Yeah I retract that opinion now. What didn't sit very well with me was the suggestion that a person's potential is limited by their school to the extent of 10 ENTER score points. However your anecdotal examples are all valid, and I do agree that a negative school culture can stultify one's academic progress and that is why selective schools are important.
To clarify a bit. Appianway's example is getting straight HDs at uni and that indicates to me that she is still very intelligent. In other words, the reason why she may have underperformed in year 12 was that her country school didn't have the hard-working knuckle-down environment that another school would have. But if she did she could still get high 99s. Something about the suggestion that in Berwick you are "doing great if you get at least 80" and in the eastern suburbs "you can get at least a 90 if you are doing good" suggested to me that even by working hard somehow the school is going to mean your potential ENTER is limited.
-
I think it is a good idea for a new selective school :) My brother has a couple of friends who got into it this year so only time will tell :P
-
I think selective schools are a good idea in theory, but I think society and human pride and ruined the system. Now you just have heaps of parents pushing their kids to get into them, even though they aren't necessarily that intelligent, so that they can have some sort of status saying "my kid went to macrob/mhs."
Anyways, people should be very considerate about the environment there, and how strong mentality you can tough it out. Not only the school environment, but I think if i had to travel an hour everyday I'd be drained.