ATAR Notes: Forum
Uni Stuff => General University Discussion and Queries => Topic started by: paulsterio on August 12, 2012, 11:50:27 am
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Teaching remuneration is not great (especially in Victoria). 75k might be the average but how long does it actually take to get there?
http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Teacher_salary_rates.pdf
I know that teaching remuneration isn't great, but it's by no means as low as what people say it is - like it's actually not even that low. I've spoken to a few of my high school teachers and the general consensus is that once you've reached teaching VCE (which is where I ultimately want to be) - you would already be around the expert stage and I know teachers that are teaching VCE around 4 - 5 years after they graduate - which isn't bad at all.
Anyways, I agree with you, for the work they do, teachers should get paid more, but look at the flip side:
- Teachers have a great starting salary of around $55,000 which is higher than many other professions (higher than being a medical intern too, apparently)
- Teachers in public schools have quite generous superannuation
- Generally high job security - there's always going to be a teacher shortage
- 8 weeks of holidays per year - but the thing about this is that your holidays will match up with your future children's holidays - so of course - family trips and that will be easier
- Most schools are local - which means you might be able to avoid traffic and travel times - I know a teacher at my old school who lived in Mulgrave (so it took him 15 minutes to get to and from work each day)
- If you're more money-minded, private schools pay much much more than public schools and I've heard that many private school teachers hit the 90,000 mark, some even the 100,000 mark.
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I know that teaching remuneration isn't great, but it's by no means as low as what people say it is - like it's actually not even that low. I've spoken to a few of my high school teachers and the general consensus is that once you've reached teaching VCE (which is where I ultimately want to be) - you would already be around the expert stage and I know teachers that are teaching VCE around 4 - 5 years after they graduate - which isn't bad at all.
The scale I posted before is how your income goes up, based on years of teaching experience (technically it's defined as 5+ months of teaching per year but w/e) in the public sector. Work privately, sure it's different and there's more money but that's different.
Anyway on money: 55k is the absolute lowest amount a Victorian medical intern could make / what is the teaching super rate, because i have no idea?
Money in teaching is not great. You'll be able to live -comfortably- but I think given that we're in agreement about how it's underpaid and undervalued (cough contract based employment and additional work requirements) it's somewhat disingenuous to simultaneously say that the money is good.
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No I agree with you that the money isn't great, but of course, once you start hitting the 70k mark, you will definitely be able to live comfortably, especially in a family of two working adults, that's already around 140,000 per annum, which is far more than enough to live comfortably off, sure you can't expect to own multiple homes, a Mercedes-Benz and a house in Toorak, but you'll still be around (if not slightly higher) than the average income for an university educated family.
You're right, I'm not trying to say the money is good, not at all, but what I'm trying to say is that the money isn't as bad as others make it out to be. A lot of friends I have seem to have this misconception that teachers get all out shithouse pay - which just isn't true.
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Are you really considering dropping out to do teaching? O.o
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Are you really considering dropping out to do teaching? O.o
Yes, I actually am, but it is more likely that I am considering doing a DipEd at the end of my course.
What is so surprising about wanting to do teaching?
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What is so surprising about wanting to do teaching?
It's surprising because not many people in med drop out to do another degree, let alone one that leads to a career in teaching. It's a very very small minority.
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It's surprising because not many people in med drop out to do another degree, let alone one that leads to a career in teaching. It's a very very small minority.
Well, what can I say, I have interests and areas which I wish to pursue as well. As much as I think a doctor is a good profession to be, I have my own personal interests and joys as well. Although many people just think medicine is the dream course - why would you not want to be a doctor - that's not how things actually are - there is no such thing as a dream course.
Just because the requirements for Med are high and entry is ultra-competitive does not mean that everyone would want to do it and that everyone currently doing Med would enjoy it. Of course, it's easy to jump on the bandwagon and end up as a doctor. But you know, when I'm old and on my dying bed, diagnosed with some terminal illness, I don't want to regret that I didn't spend my life doing things that I really wanted to do.
So call me crazy, but sometimes we all have to be a little crazy and do the things that we love - sure we have to think about our future as well, but who knows what will happen tomorrow.
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I'm surprised because you achieved high scores in VCE and got into med which is not a degree everyone gets a chance to get into.
I don't quite understand why you would finish a degree which you do not want to pursue a career in?
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I don't quite understand why you would finish a degree which you do not want to pursue a career in?
Perhaps irrelevant to this discussion, but the end result of education doesn't have to be vocational.
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Why not Tutor, instead of Teaching? Or if you are really passionate about teaching then create a tuition center for VCE kids in which you charge low fees, volunteer to teach in third world countries or even in community centers. I don't see the rationale in planning to drop out of med for teaching.
I agree that teaching is a noble and respectable job, but in the long term, if you have completed medicine (or any other course) and have experience in the industry, your future students will respect you far more and gain so much more from the wisdom, knowledge, and insight that you have gained over the years. If you choose teaching, I think you will be cutting yourself short for the opportunity that many kids in Victoria would cry to have.
Teaching is a great career by itself, but I think you can always turn to teaching, now or when your 50. But studying Medicine/Law/ Or another high pedigree subject, you don't get that chance often and you will hit a certain threshold in your life when it will be impossible to enter into those industries in an economical manner.
My two cents.
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It's surprising because not many people in med drop out to do another degree, let alone one that leads to a career in teaching. It's a very very small minority.
Well, what can I say, I have interests and areas which I wish to pursue as well. As much as I think a doctor is a good profession to be, I have my own personal interests and joys as well. Although many people just think medicine is the dream course - why would you not want to be a doctor - that's not how things actually are - there is no such thing as a dream course.
Just because the requirements for Med are high and entry is ultra-competitive does not mean that everyone would want to do it and that everyone currently doing Med would enjoy it. Of course, it's easy to jump on the bandwagon and end up as a doctor. But you know, when I'm old and on my dying bed, diagnosed with some terminal illness, I don't want to regret that I didn't spend my life doing things that I really wanted to do.
So call me crazy, but sometimes we all have to be a little crazy and do the things that we love - sure we have to think about our future as well, but who knows what will happen tomorrow.
I just hope you didn't start the MBBS knowing that you might prefer to be a teacher instead of a doctor. As they said at the Monash University Open Day last week, every student that ends up in our course that doesn't want to be there is eventually going to be a loss and furthermore, is taking a spot from somebody who might really want to be a doctor. Please don't take this the wrong way and assume I'm saying you're doing medicine for all the wrong reasons - that's not what I'm suggesting. But if you get to a stage where you realise you want to be a teacher even more so than a doctor, I encourage you to act before your current degree finishes. There's no point hogging someone else's place and being miserable yourself in the mean time. :)
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I don't quite understand why you would finish a degree which you do not want to pursue a career in?
Perhaps irrelevant to this discussion, but the end result of education doesn't have to be vocational.
Still doesn't make sense? Unless it is a bachelor of science, it's strange to say you enjoy studying to be a doctor but don't want to be one. Med is a professional degree is an highly focused on training you to be one although the first year may involve lots of general science.
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I'm surprised because you achieved high scores in VCE and got into med which is not a degree everyone gets a chance to get into.
I don't quite understand why you would finish a degree which you do not want to pursue a career in?
That's the wrong mentality, it doesn't matter if you get a high score or a low score, you go for what you want, you don't go into a course just because it's hard to get into.
Oh, you don't understand how teaching works then.
With teaching, you do an undergraduate degree, and then either a Diploma or Masters of Education (1 or 2 years). That undergraduate degree can be anything, including an MBBS.
Still doesn't make sense? Unless it is a bachelor of science, it's strange to say you enjoy studying to be a doctor but don't want to be one. Med is a professional degree is an highly focused on training you to be one although the first year may involve lots of general science.
Hey, but are you the one currently doing Med right now? You seem to think you know quite a fair bit about what's in Med and what makes sense and doesn't make sense. I never said that I didn't want to become a doctor. I'm just saying I was considering a career in teaching. I said I was considering, which means I'm thinking about it, but that could be in the far future. Right now, I'm in a course where I'm happy to be for the next 5 years. So I'll see what happens as I move into hospitals and experience more of medicine in general.
Stick/Water
Oh no, there was a time where I wanted to be a doctor. And I'm far from miserable about it, in fact, I'm quite happy I'm in MBBS and it's certainly a good place to be. It's an enjoyable course I do enjoy learning about the things that I'm learning about right now. The truth is, no matter what happens now, my spot is already my spot, they won't just randomly let somebody into it. But either way, that's an aside, the main point is, I have many years of my life left, so I'll just wait it out and see.
Who knows, in another 5 years I might want to be something completely different, maybe I want to be a GP in 5 years, for example, so I'll obviously continue with this in the mean time and then we'll see what happens.
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Stick/Water
Oh no, there was a time where I wanted to be a doctor. And I'm far from miserable about it, in fact, I'm quite happy I'm in MBBS and it's certainly a good place to be. It's an enjoyable course I do enjoy learning about the things that I'm learning about right now. The truth is, no matter what happens now, my spot is already my spot, they won't just randomly let somebody into it. But either way, that's an aside, the main point is, I have many years of my life left, so I'll just wait it out and see.
Who knows, in another 5 years I might want to be something completely different, maybe I want to be a GP in 5 years, for example, so I'll obviously continue with this in the mean time and then we'll see what happens.
As long as that's how you truly feel, Paul, go with your heart. Otherwise, there's no point making excuses to stay in the MBBS. Life is too short for these things.
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No, not at all, but I can't say that I know enough about being a doctor to make a decision at this stage, and either way, I have 4 years left of MBBS. If I were to transfer to a Science degree now, I won't get credits for MED1011 and MED1022 (which is pretty dumb if you ask me), so I'll need to do 3 years anyways, so the difference in the end is 1 year. But I'd like to at least experience what it's like to be in a hospital full time and see the more clinical side of things first.
Making an informed decision is something which I find pretty important as well. And oh, I do need to mention as well, I can become a Teacher 20 years down the track if I become a doctor now, but I can't become a doctor if I decide to not do MBBS, so either way, it's a good position to be in :)
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No, not at all, but I can't say that I know enough about being a doctor to make a decision at this stage, and either way, I have 4 years left of MBBS. If I were to transfer to a Science degree now, I won't get credits for MED1011 and MED1022 (which is pretty dumb if you ask me), so I'll need to do 3 years anyways, so the difference in the end is 1 year. But I'd like to at least experience what it's like to be in a hospital full time and see the more clinical side of things first.
Making an informed decision is something which I find pretty important as well. And oh, I do need to mention as well, I can become a Teacher 20 years down the track if I become a doctor now, but I can't become a doctor if I decide to not do MBBS, so either way, it's a good position to be in :)
I'm sorry if I'm coming across as pushy because that's not how I intend to. It's just that you sound like you're giving yourself reasons to stay in the course when perhaps you know deep down otherwise. I'm sure you will make the right decision in the end. :)
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That's the wrong mentality, it doesn't matter if you get a high score or a low score, you go for what you want, you don't go into a course just because it's hard to get into.
Oh, you don't understand how teaching works then.
With teaching, you do an undergraduate degree, and then either a Diploma or Masters of Education (1 or 2 years). That undergraduate degree can be anything, including an MBBS.
I never said you should/shouldn't stay for that reason. I was explaining why I was surprised as you asked. Please explain why I don't know how teaching works? My point is being why continuing doing what you're doing when you are saying how much you would love to be a high school teacher.
"That's the wrong mentality, it doesn't matter if you get a high score or a low score, you go for what you want, you don't go into a course just because it's hard to get into. " Umm is it a bit ironic when you're telling me this when it looks like you've fallen in to the same hole?
Hey, but are you the one currently doing Med right now? You seem to think you know quite a fair bit about what's in Med and what makes sense and doesn't make sense. I never said that I didn't want to become a doctor. I'm just saying I was considering a career in teaching. I said I was considering, which means I'm thinking about it, but that could be in the far future. Right now, I'm in a course where I'm happy to be for the next 5 years. So I'll see what happens as I move into hospitals and experience more of medicine in general.
No, I'm not in med. I study dent and am aware that most professional degrees have a similar structure.
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I have been all over the place working out what career I saw myself in, and it was during my stint in a Science degree last semester that teaching was exactly where I needed to be. It's up to Paulsterio whether or not he'd like to finish his MBBS and pursue teaching... at least then he will still have the option of becoming a doctor if he decides to not continue teaching.
I do think that teaching is one of the most rewarding and fulfilling careers imaginable. I want to start a family one day, and I would like to be there for them as often as I could (which is possible with a teaching career, as opposed to say, law or specialist doctor). The pay rate may not be as high as it should, but at least I do not have to devote my life to a career that I'm only pursuing because of money.
I'm gonna be a teacher, and I'm gonna bloody enjoy it! And Paul, I've seen you all over these forums consistently helping people out if they have any questions. If it makes you feel good helping others in such away, then teaching will be absolutely perfect for you :)
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My Chemistry teacher who also teaches Methods, Specialist, Physics and Biology is a certified doctor (I believe she's a surgeon but I'm not completely sure, I will ask her if you want) and has completed MBBS, she does teaching and tutors students for $35-50 per hour casually. She's considering going back to either doing medical research or working in a hospital after her kids grow up. She's also the highest payed teacher in our school given her credentials and is also by far the best teacher I have ever had.
So there's no reason why you can't switch between both career options anytime you want.
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Big respect, Paul, for not being sucked into the prestige of things and acknowledging you might want to change. Shows integrity and a degree of courage. Can't understand the uproar that your measure of success differs from other people's.
Bugs me when people throw their nose up when I say I want to educate because it's "a waste of talent".
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Paulsterio, Im in the same boat as you. Im planning on doing an engineering degree, although I am planning on teaching sometime in the furture, don't know when though :P. I don't know why everyone is making such a big fuss about this?
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Paulsterio, Im in the same boat as you. Im planning on doing an engineering degree, although I am planning on teaching sometime in the furture, don't know when though :P. I don't know why everyone is making such a big fuss about this?
Exactly, I agree with you, what I'm just saying is that I am considering a career in Education in the future, I never said that I didn't want to become a doctor. I fully agree - I don't see why there is such a big fuss, teachers come from all walks of life and different backgrounds.
It's just something that I think I would enjoy and wish to do some time in the future.
Big respect, Paul, for not being sucked into the prestige of things and acknowledging you might want to change. Shows integrity and a degree of courage. Can't understand the uproar that your measure of success differs from other people's.
Bugs me when people throw their nose up when I say I want to educate because it's "a waste of talent".
Hahah, I fully agree with you, if the world was an ideal place, the most talented would go into teaching and education because we want the best for our future generations. But of course, that's not how things work :P
I never said you should/shouldn't stay for that reason. I was explaining why I was surprised as you asked. Please explain why I don't know how teaching works? My point is being why continuing doing what you're doing when you are saying how much you would love to be a high school teacher.
"That's the wrong mentality, it doesn't matter if you get a high score or a low score, you go for what you want, you don't go into a course just because it's hard to get into. " Umm is it a bit ironic when you're telling me this when it looks like you've fallen in to the same hole?
No, you've just misunderstood my intention. I never said that I want to be a teacher right here and right now, it's something I am considering - I don't see what is so wrong with that, I know teachers who come from different background professions. I know a Maths teacher who is a PhD. in some area of linear algebra. Of course he wasn't a teacher all his life, but the same goes for many other teachers as well. I don't see why you find it so strange that I consider a career in teaching. I never said that I didn't want to become a doctor now did I?
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I had an interesting talk with my principal about careers and courses about exactly this. I have a passion and interest in teaching however I'm not 100% keen on it just yet... I want to expose myself to an external work environment first, instead of being 'holed up' in a school environment forever. And the advice he gave me was that you can become a teacher whenever you want, complete a diploma and you're set in a year's time.. do something big and exciting with your career first, it's not something you'd want to dive into straight away if that makes sense. I think you got it exactly right when you said you can become a doctor before becoming a teacher, but you can't do it the other way round (you can but it'd be tougher).
But, do whatever your passion leads you to... :p
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theres a fair amount of talk here saying that perhaps teachers are undervalued and perhaps underpaid, but i mean, im sure we've all had some amazingly pathetic teachers in our time at school. the atar requirements for secondary teaching range from ~63 (la trobe) to ~80 (uni of sydney), and i obviously cant make a definitive statement, but how can someone who's scoring in the 60s/70s teach someone who may be aiming for the 90s? it doesn't make sense, and you can be near certain that they'd do a terribly job at it. so i dont think its justified to raise the wages across the board, but maybe goal-based salaries could work better? perhaps have some kind of way to gauge whether a teacher deserves a pay rise, cos there would be plenty of cases where they wouldnt.
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I know a Maths teacher who is a PhD. in some area of linear algebra. Of course he wasn't a teacher all his life, but the same goes for many other teachers as well. I don't see why you find it so strange that I consider a career in teaching. I never said that I didn't want to become a doctor now did I?
is that dr dave coulson?
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theres a fair amount of talk here saying that perhaps teachers are undervalued and perhaps underpaid, but i mean, im sure we've all had some amazingly pathetic teachers in our time at school. the atar requirements for secondary teaching range from ~63 (la trobe) to ~80 (uni of sydney), and i obviously cant make a definitive statement, but how can someone who's scoring in the 60s/70s teach someone who may be aiming for the 90s? it doesn't make sense, and you can be near certain that they'd do a terribly job at it. so i dont think its justified to raise the wages across the board, but maybe goal-based salaries could work better? perhaps have some kind of way to gauge whether a teacher deserves a pay rise, cos there would be plenty of cases where they wouldnt.
I completely agree that the level of teaching quality is complete rubbish (on average), and I think it stems from teaching being undervalued and underpaid.
ATAR entry requirements are purely supply and demand. If teaching were paid extremely well, lots more high achievers would want to undertake Bachelors of Education and the entry reqs would shoot up and we'd have a much higher quality teaching workforce as a -direct result-
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ATAR entry requirements are purely supply and demand. If teaching were paid extremely well, lots more high achievers would want to undertake Bachelors of Education and the entry reqs would shoot up and we'd have a much higher quality teaching workforce as a -direct result-
very good point, didnt think of that...
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Im just wondering is it possible to get a diploma of education while working full time? What about online?
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You can absolutely do the Dip Ed while working - but you'd need flexibility from your workplace for the teaching placements.
With the ATAR-debate and quality of teachers, I think it's faulty to assume that people who scored highly in school will be better teachers.
Firstly, I've met many people who are brilliant in themselves, but unable to manage a classroom, communicate their knowledge, explain the basics in order for someone else to work their own way up to the teacher's knowledge, or figure out how to help someone learn who isn't as clever as they are.
Also, when you're teaching below VCE, the content really isn't that hard. Granted, at VCE level it can really help to know the material well, which is where a more academic teacher might come in handy. But! That's not going to be the same for all subjects. Does a highly-qualified Physics teacher need to have done well in every subject? Does an excellent artist and Art teacher need to have scored highly in more traditionally academic subjects? And teaching extends all the way down to 3yo kinder, too. I want a loving, supportive, patient and firm person teaching my hypothetical 3yo; I don't really care about their ATAR as long as they can read an analog clock and have received their 'pen licence'!
Lastly, I was surprised when I started teaching how much the success of the class depends on the coherence and energy of the class rather than the content. At the end of the day the teacher isn't the one sitting the exam - it's more about what the student can do than what the teacher knows. And being able to create an enthusiastic, hungry, inquisitive, high-achieving mindset across a group of 10-30 people is really difficult - and an ATAR doesn't help much with that.
You know, I worked in law before teaching, and the best lawyers I knew were often the ones with the low ATARs, who couldn't get into the prestigious unis. Since I got a good ATAR I should probably care about it more. I cared about it more when I got it, I guess!
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theres a fair amount of talk here saying that perhaps teachers are undervalued and perhaps underpaid, but i mean, im sure we've all had some amazingly pathetic teachers in our time at school. the atar requirements for secondary teaching range from ~63 (la trobe) to ~80 (uni of sydney), and i obviously cant make a definitive statement, but how can someone who's scoring in the 60s/70s teach someone who may be aiming for the 90s? it doesn't make sense, and you can be near certain that they'd do a terribly job at it. so i dont think its justified to raise the wages across the board, but maybe goal-based salaries could work better? perhaps have some kind of way to gauge whether a teacher deserves a pay rise, cos there would be plenty of cases where they wouldnt.
If you can, do; if you can't, teach. So many teachers at my school fall under this category. :/
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With the ATAR-debate and quality of teachers, I think it's faulty to assume that people who scored highly in school will be better teachers.
Firstly, I've met many people who are brilliant in themselves, but unable to manage a classroom, communicate their knowledge, explain the basics in order for someone else to work their own way up to the teacher's knowledge, or figure out how to help someone learn who isn't as clever as they are.
agreed, which is why i never made the assumption. i said getting a low atar demonstrates that you'd be (most likely) unequipped to teach those going after high atars. If the teacher's knowledge isnt there, then they cant really do anything to help the student. but i never said that having a high atar implies that you will be a good teacher (cos thats rubbish).
Also, when you're teaching below VCE, the content really isn't that hard. Granted, at VCE level it can really help to know the material well, which is where a more academic teacher might come in handy. But! That's not going to be the same for all subjects. Does a highly-qualified Physics teacher need to have done well in every subject? Does an excellent artist and Art teacher need to have scored highly in more traditionally academic subjects? And teaching extends all the way down to 3yo kinder, too. I want a loving, supportive, patient and firm person teaching my hypothetical 3yo; I don't really care about their ATAR as long as they can read an analog clock and have received their 'pen licence'!
the atars i looked up were for secondary school teaching, not for primary school. i didnt consider the less-traditionally academic subjects such as art - thats a good point.
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Meganrobyn, I absolutely agree that high ATAR most certainly does not mean good teacher. And I really agree about primary school teachers needing to be loving and nurturing as well as having a good knowledge-base rather than an extremely academically talented asshole who will scar children for life.
However, at a junior secondary level onwards, it must be said that a much larger proportion of people with higher ATARs are far better equipped to teach the material they know so well. And this quality is very desireable.
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I don't think the ATAR alone is a good measurement of whether somebody can teach, however, I think it's a combination of two things:
1) A value for education as a whole and wanting the world to become more educated
Before we even talk about knowledge, we should talk about the valuing of education. Generally, you are right, students with high ATARs will care more about education than students with low ATARs, thus, high achievers might be better teachers, however, it might not be so. I know students who have gotten low ATARs not because they wanted to, but because of their circumstances. When those students then go on to university and learn more about their subject field, they become better at it because they essentially value education. I have also seen students with high ATARs dropping off to satisfactory university marks because they no longer have the motivation.
2) The ability to communicate and teach
This is important as well, I know a lot of amazing minds who cannot teach even if their life depended on it :P