ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Other General Discussion => Topic started by: thushan on November 29, 2012, 09:43:21 pm
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This is a taboo topic - but remember our line - if taboo topics are not discussed, informed and sophisticated views cannot be made as easily.
Also, this topic can be quite...amenable to memes/jokes. While a little bit of a laugh can be ok, please have some maturity about it.
I raise this (a bit belatedly!) because of the advent of the erotica 50 Shades of Grey, read mostly by women (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). It raises a point now.
Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like. However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?"
Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.
Now remember, this is merely a discussion of ideas. You are not to judge other people for what they say - if people feel as though they are going to be judged for what they say, they will refrain from saying anything, and their ideas will not have any opportunity for refinement.
Also: NO TROLLING. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.
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However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven?
1) Never
2) What's to forgive? :\
??
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However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven?
1) Never
2) What's to forgive? :\
??
I think the point chemderp is making is that pornography can be hurtful to women (especially victims of abuse, who end up doing porn in a viciously self-destructive cycle - and porn execs take advantage of their vulnerable nature). He's asking how much blame society should take for enjoying its consumption when it can hurt people.
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As long as in production, no one is harmed/exploited, I feel as though there shouldn't be a problem. It's just difficult to tell when someone's being exploited.
In balance, if you enter into a relationship, and your partner is not okay with it (for whatever reason), I think that there should be more discourse regarding this 'taboo'.
I do, however, feel that pornography may have harmful effects to (some members of) our society. It could lead to objectification of men/women or a skewed perception regarding sex.
idk
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I think the point chemderp is making is that pornography can be hurtful to women (especially victims of abuse, who end up doing porn in a viciously self-destructive cycle - and porn execs take advantage of their vulnerable nature). He's asking how much blame society should take for enjoying its consumption when it can hurt people.
That's like "shunning" someone because they used a moisturiser that was tested on animals
How many people watch porn and actively think "oh she's being forced to do this but I don't give a fuck"? For those that actually do, and watch it regardless, sure shun them. Most people don't think like that.
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*ah crap I meant to quote your post but i accidentally modified it, SORRY!*
(chemderp)
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This thread can be summarized as "porn is neither degrading nor empowering of women but exists on a spectrum, where there are no absolutes"
Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it
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Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like.
Why isn't it 100% right/okay/acceptable to watch/read pornographic materials?
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The usual ideas about degradation. Then again...males perform in the act as well I guess...
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The usual ideas about degradation. Then again...males perform in the act as well I guess...
That's true, for some it may be degrading and a last choice, but for others it can be empowering (see above). I don't think that someone should be shunned or treated any differently because they watch completely legal videos.
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Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like.
Why isn't it 100% right/okay/acceptable to watch/read pornographic materials?
Oh, and especially where one is in a relationship and one member is very uncomfortable with the other watching pornography - because it can be a symbol of "you're not good enough to satisfy me" or even a sense of "you are cheating on me" to an extent.
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That is solely the problem of the other partner being irrationally insecure. Just because the other partner has mental issues that need to be worked out before they get into a relationship doesn't make watching porn wrong.
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That is solely the problem of the other partner being irrationally insecure. Just because the other partner has mental issues that need to be worked out before they get into a relationship doesn't make watching porn wrong.
Well, still, it would be good if you could be considerate to your partner?
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There's consideration and then there's bending to unreasonable demands.
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There's consideration and then there's bending to unreasonable demands.
Not that unreasonable...that's just a possessive nature. Like once you're in a relationship, its assumed that intimacy is exclusive. Hence why its anathema to say cheat on your partner. Is watching pornography not in a similar boat, except one is fantasising over some other person rather than performing an act?
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Let's all discuss this under the watchful eye of Tony Abbott
(http://www.army-technology.com/uploads/feature/feature97383/9-tony-abbot.jpg)
Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like.
Well in terms of ethics i think thats very, very far from being established (Unless you use the line of reasoning that Because im a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Conservative/Femminist, X is wrong rather determining what makes it wrong and why you think that).
You'll need to make some kind of convincing argument to support that before i personally buy that idea (not saying its right or wrong) and i think others would like to see this too.
However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?
Again, you're assuming they should be shunned without making a convincing argument why.
It's not too difficult:
(1) Rat poison is humans
(2) It's inherently wrong to harm humans
(3) Therefore, you should not replace the milk in your kids cereal with rat poison
Something like that (here's some more tips)
That kind of framework is used all the time in philosophy to help break down the reasoning behind an issue and it makes it very easy and smooth to debate over because you can say you disgree with (2) and why.
Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.
Don't know the relationship status of people here nor if they have ever been in a relationship but it's a fair bit like teamwork. You have a few mutal shared ideas of what things should be liked or what you expect of one another, if you step over one of these boundaries, you'll probably wind up with some kind of trouble (in my experience anyway but it's just common sense for those who haven't been in a relationship before).
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I think the point chemderp is making is that pornography can be hurtful to women (especially victims of abuse, who end up doing porn in a viciously self-destructive cycle - and porn execs take advantage of their vulnerable nature). He's asking how much blame society should take for enjoying its consumption when it can hurt people.
Wobbles brings up a really good point here.
I went to a catholic school so they mentioned these kinds of things every so often, they run the idea that its exploitative and other things like that, they're all broken people.
I don't know if i fully agree with that. I'm sure there are some women who just see it as a profession and personally have no ethical problem around doing that kind of thing. I can't think of a reason why we should stop these people.
For other people though, its exploitative. Some people just need the money, they don't really want to do it but you have to eat. Other's have emotional problems, this particular story comes to mind:
Chong was born Grace Quek[2] (Chinese: 郭盈恩; pinyin: Guō Yíng'ēn), and raised in Singapore in a middle-class Protestant Singaporean Chinese family.[1][3][4] She was a student at Raffles Girls' School, where she was enlisted in the country's Gifted Education Programme, and Hwa Chong Junior College.[1] Former teachers and classmates describe Chong as quiet, intelligent, and studious.[1]
After taking her A levels, she took nearly three years off, including a year spent in the United States.[1] She then went on to study law at King's College London under a scholarship.[1] While in the United Kingdom, Chong got drunk on a train, where she met a man and agreed to have sex with him in an alleyway.[1] He brought along other men, and she was gang raped and robbed in a rubbish closet under an inner-city housing block.[1][5]
Some of these people are especially damaged and it's just a simple truth, an industry like this, has an incredible potential to be extremely exploitative for these kind of people.
That is solely the problem of the other partner being irrationally insecure. Just because the other partner has mental issues that need to be worked out before they get into a relationship doesn't make watching porn wrong.
I think it's far from being any kind of "mental issue" in any kind of pathological sense unless you're using an incredibly narrow definition of what is normative. Everyone is different, what might be "irrationally insecure" to you might be what another persons perception or Just or loving is, i don't think it's necessarily a wrong or mentally abnormal view, it's just a different view.
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Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it
Which one is this? I know she wrote a post on creeps and it was pretty well written
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Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it
Which one is this? I know she wrote a post on creeps and it was pretty well written
You can find some good replies in her reddit AmA
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Let's all discuss this under the watchful eye of Tony Abbott
(http://www.army-technology.com/uploads/feature/feature97383/9-tony-abbot.jpg)
Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like.
Well in terms of ethics i think thats very, very far from being established (Unless you use the line of reasoning that Because im a Christian/Jew/Muslim/Conservative/Femminist, X is wrong rather determining what makes it wrong and why you think that).
You'll need to make some kind of convincing argument to support that before i personally buy that idea (not saying its right or wrong) and i think others would like to see this too.
However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?
Again, you're assuming they should be shunned without making a convincing argument why.
It's not too difficult:
(1) Rat poison is humans
(2) It's inherently wrong to harm humans
(3) Therefore, you should not replace the milk in your kids cereal with rat poison
Something like that (here's some more tips)
That kind of framework is used all the time in philosophy to help break down the reasoning behind an issue and it makes it very easy and smooth to debate over because you can say you disgree with (2) and why.
Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.
Don't know the relationship status of people here nor if they have ever been in a relationship but it's a fair bit like teamwork. You have a few mutal shared ideas of what things should be liked or what you expect of one another, if you step over one of these boundaries, you'll probably wind up with some kind of trouble (in my experience anyway but it's just common sense for those who haven't been in a relationship before).
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I think the point chemderp is making is that pornography can be hurtful to women (especially victims of abuse, who end up doing porn in a viciously self-destructive cycle - and porn execs take advantage of their vulnerable nature). He's asking how much blame society should take for enjoying its consumption when it can hurt people.
Wobbles brings up a really good point here.
I went to a catholic school so they mentioned these kinds of things every so often, they run the idea that its exploitative and other things like that, they're all broken people.
I don't know if i fully agree with that. I'm sure there are some women who just see it as a profession and personally have no ethical problem around doing that kind of thing. I can't think of a reason why we should stop these people.
For other people though, its exploitative. Some people just need the money, they don't really want to do it but you have to eat. Other's have emotional problems, this particular story comes to mind:
Chong was born Grace Quek[2] (Chinese: 郭盈恩; pinyin: Guō Yíng'ēn), and raised in Singapore in a middle-class Protestant Singaporean Chinese family.[1][3][4] She was a student at Raffles Girls' School, where she was enlisted in the country's Gifted Education Programme, and Hwa Chong Junior College.[1] Former teachers and classmates describe Chong as quiet, intelligent, and studious.[1]
After taking her A levels, she took nearly three years off, including a year spent in the United States.[1] She then went on to study law at King's College London under a scholarship.[1] While in the United Kingdom, Chong got drunk on a train, where she met a man and agreed to have sex with him in an alleyway.[1] He brought along other men, and she was gang raped and robbed in a rubbish closet under an inner-city housing block.[1][5]
Some of these people are especially damaged and it's just a simple truth, an industry like this, has an incredible potential to be extremely exploitative for these kind of people.
That is solely the problem of the other partner being irrationally insecure. Just because the other partner has mental issues that need to be worked out before they get into a relationship doesn't make watching porn wrong.
I think it's far from being any kind of "mental issue" in any kind of pathological sense unless you're using an incredibly narrow definition of what is normative. Everyone is different, what might be "irrationally insecure" to you might be what another persons perception or Just or loving is, i don't think it's necessarily a wrong or mentally abnormal view, it's just a different view.
@Kingpomba -
You were right in that I held that view without argument. I guess I was brought up in an environment where it was pretty much axiomatic that pornography is wrong and that is that.
I had also assumed that society in general - including you guys - would shun people who watched porn, at least to an extent - part of the reason why the topic is such taboo, hence why I never gave the option of society not shunning such people.
And I agree with you on the relationships point and the point that there are cases of exploitation.
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Not that unreasonable...that's just a possessive nature. Like once you're in a relationship, its assumed that intimacy is exclusive. Hence why its anathema to say cheat on your partner. Is watching pornography not in a similar boat, except one is fantasising over some other person rather than performing an act?
Possessiveness to that extreme is most definitely unhealthy in any relationship.
Cheating is nowhere close to watching pornography. I'm not sure how you can make that equivalence. If you see a pretty girl in the street and look at her and think "hey she's pretty", would you find it unreasonable if your partner called it cheating?
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You were right in that I held that view without argument. I guess I was brought up in an environment where it was pretty much axiomatic that pornography is wrong and that is that.
No one culture is really more right or wrong than the other one. If i grew up in say Saudi Arabia its just a statistical truth that i'd be much more likely to adopt a certain religion and culture just as much as if i grew up in Japan.
With discussions like this, it's real hard to pin down right or wrong because everyone is just as much as a fallible, biased, emotional human being as the next person.
I think what matters most is not so much that your views are right (in cases like this where it's difficult or impossible to determine) but whether you can justify them or show some kind of reasoning.
It's fine if you hold that view or you grew up with it but it'd be great if we all tried to figure out why we believe the things we already do. Just as a personal example for me, i consider myself to be on the left and that comes part and parcel with things like supporting abortion, wealth redistribution, being opposed to things like the death penalty, etc. Some of those things (if i point out which ones i will open another can of worms) are things i'm seriously questioning on their own now (as we all should).
I had also assumed that society in general - including you guys - would shun people who watched porn, at least to an extent - part of the reason why the topic is such taboo, hence why I never gave the option of society not shunning such people.
Well the Western World is pretty much the beacon of liberal freedom in the world, freedom of all kinds. This is especially true after women got the vote, the sexual revolution, challenging traditional ideas about intimacy and relationship, homosexuality, etc. The western world has undergone a dramatic shift in such a short period of time.
Considering all this change, i think it might come as no shock that most of us here in the west seem to have little problem with this (outside of religious groups who are obviously against it for other reason but I'm talking general society as a whole).
I think it comes part and parcel with the all the other kinds of liberation, opening up of personal freedoms and smashing old social norms.
[The more philosophically inclined among you are pointing out i made a mistake in the example of an argument, it was almost dr.seuss-esq too. I meant to say (1) Rat poison is poisonous to humans ]
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Stoya wrote some interesting posts about it if you want to google it
Which one is this? I know she wrote a post on creeps and it was pretty well written
You can find some good replies in her reddit AmA
Thanks dude, she comes across as a really genuine person. Unlike Sasha Grey, who keeps on harping on about some pornography empowerment, sex-positivism tripe
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It's fine if you hold that view or you grew up with it but it'd be great if we all tried to figure out why we believe the things we already do.
Hence the reason I made this thread.
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No one culture is really more right or wrong than the other one. If i grew up in say Saudi Arabia its just a statistical truth that i'd be much more likely to adopt a certain religion and culture just as much as if i grew up in Japan.
I take issue with this. There are elements within cultures that ought to be expunged. Let's take the saudi example. They have their cuisines and their music and their traditions. Those make up the rich tapestry of humanity and is something to be preserved and cherished.
At the same time, in Saudi culture, women are treated as second-class citizens. They are not allowed to drive, or travel alone. You cannot deny that it is a part of their culture. When people's rights are infringed, the culture is most certainly wrong.
Obviously not the whole culture, and you'd be a bigot to suggest it, but enlightenment does need to happen to all cultures so that all people can live freely.
What you'll find is that these elements are largely not specific to any individual culture, and kp may have been alluding to this. I think almost every single culture in the world has oppressed women at one point or another. Same with homosexuals, and people of skin colour different to their own. It's about maturing and evolving as a culture to get rid of those elements while celebrating the positives your culture has contributed to advancing humanity.
But I would categorically say that, yes, western culture is in a position of greater moral superiority than those still under the fist of religious extremism. I say that and I am not ashamed of it, and there's a reason we have so many refugees fleeing those countries to come here.
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I take issue with this.
I meant culture as a wholesale idea, we can't say Indian culture is far inferior to say English culture as any kind of general rule.
If you want to drill it down to the specific details about certain issues, you could possible make the judgment that their view is wrong on any one particular issue, to take it to the extreme say of a tribe who sees no problem with slavery.
Don't lock to much onto the word Saudi, it was just an example, interchange it with Irish, or Polynesian or whatever you like and the intent of what i was trying to say remains the same.
Let's try stay on the main issue though which is Erotica.
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I take issue with this.
I meant culture as a wholesale idea, we can't say Indian culture is far inferior to say English culture as any kind of general rule.
If you want to drill it down to the specific details about certain issues, you could possible make the judgment that their view is wrong on any one particular issue, to take it to the extreme say of a tribe who sees no problem with slavery.
Don't lock to much onto the word Saudi, it was just an example, interchange it with Irish, or Polynesian or whatever you like and the intent of what i was trying to say remains the same.
Let's try stay on the main issue though which is Erotica.
But it's very important, actually. Cultural relativism can lock these cycles up and prevent them from being changed.
I would say that many asiatic countries have desctructive cultures wrt pornography. Sexual expression is repressed, and it leads to myriad different places. Just look at how it manifests in Japan, where the censoring of it, coupled with their technological advancement has led to an explosion of the most bizarre fetishes you could imagine. Why Japan and not China, or Vietnam? It's because the cultural forces produced the reaction.
The highest per capita volume of porn searches in the world occurs where? In the middle east, one of the only places in the world where any type of pornography is banned by law. Humans all share this common curiosity about sex and the need to express ourselves sexually. But we are at the same time embarrassed by these private interests and this has led to it being shunned in many, many cultures producing some pretty absurd results.
A sexually healthy culture is one in which individuals are free to do what they wish so long as they aren't hurting others. And I would argue that such cultures -are- superior in this aspect to cultures where this does not occur. That does not make the individual people better or worse (who are simply reacting to the forces into which they were born), but it makes the living conditions far more palatable.
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A sexually healthy culture is one in which individuals are free to do what they wish so long as they aren't hurting others. And I would argue that such cultures -are- superior in this aspect to cultures where this does not occur. That does not make the individual people better or worse (who are simply reacting to the forces into which they were born), but it makes the living conditions far more palatable.
You say that free expression of sexual preferences is a healthy thing, but then why is the Japanese sexual culture "destructive"? Surely these "bizarre fetishes" comes with your sexually healthy culture.
I would say that many asiatic countries have desctructive cultures wrt pornography. Sexual expression is repressed, and it leads to myriad different places. Just look at how it manifests in Japan, where the censoring of it, coupled with their technological advancement has led to an explosion of the most bizarre fetishes you could imagine. Why Japan and not China, or Vietnam? It's because the cultural forces produced the reaction.
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A sexually healthy culture is one in which individuals are free to do what they wish so long as they aren't hurting others. And I would argue that such cultures -are- superior in this aspect to cultures where this does not occur. That does not make the individual people better or worse (who are simply reacting to the forces into which they were born), but it makes the living conditions far more palatable.
You say that free expression of sexual preferences is a healthy thing, but then why is the Japanese sexual culture "destructive"? Surely these "bizarre fetishes" comes with your sexually healthy culture.
I would say that many asiatic countries have desctructive cultures wrt pornography. Sexual expression is repressed, and it leads to myriad different places. Just look at how it manifests in Japan, where the censoring of it, coupled with their technological advancement has led to an explosion of the most bizarre fetishes you could imagine. Why Japan and not China, or Vietnam? It's because the cultural forces produced the reaction.
I never said that the fetishes were wrong, I just said it was a weird result that hasn't really happened anywhere else. It's out of the ordinary.
I should also clarify, some of the fetishes are very wrong. You have a ton of schoolgirl rape porn (in the form of hentai) and some really dark shit that's very abusive. Much of it produced solely in Japan.
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What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)
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What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)
It normalises a destructive attitude within society that it's a sexual fantasy that is healthy to pursue.
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Using actors - Ning that's child porn. That's not on.
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What is wrong with fantasising about something if it 1) does not hurt anybody and 2) you have no intention of carrying out that fantasy?
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Using actors - Ning that's child porn. That's not on.
.... I would have thought it would have been obvious that I was referring to adult actors playing a part.
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Using actors - Ning that's child porn. That's not on.
Nina means actors who aren't children but are portraying children.
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What is wrong with fantasising about something if it 1) does not hurt anybody and 2) you have no intention of carrying out that fantasy?
In an ideal world, it's okay. In the world we live in, it's a harm minimisation strategy to prevent mentally disturbed people from building on their sick fantasies.
Do you really think they're so rational? You really think a guy who fantasises about raping children is really mentally stable enough to be trusted?
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Actors who are playing children but are portraying children? :/ :/ fine line...is that even possible? unless they used 18-year-olds...
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^You ever seen Japanese women?
What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)
It normalises a destructive attitude within society that it's a sexual fantasy that is healthy to pursue.
What are your thoughts on anal porn?
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^You ever seen Japanese women?
What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)
It normalises a destructive attitude within society that it's a sexual fantasy that is healthy to pursue.
What are your thoughts on anal porn?
Er, I feel like this is trying to trap me somehow? :P
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Actors who are playing children but are portraying children? :/ :/ fine line...is that even possible? unless they used 18-year-olds...
It's called make-up, pigtails and post-production editing.
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Fair enough.
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Actors who are playing children but are portraying children? :/ :/ fine line...is that even possible? unless they used 18-year-olds...
It's called make-up, pigtails and post-production editing.
i sense a hint of condescension. play nice people
^You ever seen Japanese women?
What's wrong with schoolgirl rape porn if it is not using real people? (And even if it were, but using actors?)
It normalises a destructive attitude within society that it's a sexual fantasy that is healthy to pursue.
What are your thoughts on anal porn?
Er, I feel like this is trying to trap me somehow? :P
bahahahhahahahahahaha xD funniest thing ive heard all day!
I personally think that pornography has its pros and cons. it often leads to certain youthful males having a hyperactive sexual longing, which typically leads to ill effects (such as rape, unsafe and unprotected sex due to increased sex drive). although having strong sexual desires is normal for young adult males, it is only further increased by pornographic materials, which may potentially result in outcomes that are detrimental to the civil fabrics of society.
now, as well as this, pornography is often used by the older demographic of couples to spice up their sex life, by assisting them in coming up with new ideas about how to engage intimately.
thus, its not fair to say that porn = wrong or tight, as the issue is not entirely objective, but based on individual interpretation and cultural values.
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thus, its not fair to say that porn = wrong or tight, as the issue is not entirely objective, but based on individual interpretation and cultural values.
I'd go out on a limb and say that pornography's probably not 'tight' :P
I personally think that pornography has its pros and cons. it often leads to certain youthful males having a hyperactive sexual longing, which typically leads to ill effects (such as rape, unsafe and unprotected sex due to increased sex drive). although having strong sexual desires is normal for young adult males, it is only further increased by pornographic materials, which may potentially result in outcomes that are detrimental to the civil fabrics of society.
Is the evidence that the viewing of pornography correlates to higher numbers of rape? If so, I'm surprised. I think that there's a danger of underestimating people's self-control in issues like these. It suggests that young men are driven towards one goal with no capacity for restraint, which is obviously untrue and rather insulting.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with watching the most hardcore stuff that's out there, as long as you don't let it warp your concept of right and wrong. Fantasies are fine, as long as they stay that way. I think that most people are strong enough to know what's suitable in which situation.
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hahahah oh god... it was meant to read 'right'. of all the typos that could have happened... :P
Is the evidence that the viewing of pornography correlates to higher numbers of rape? If so, I'm surprised. I think that there's a danger of underestimating people's self-control in issues like these. It suggests that young men are driven towards one goal with no capacity for restraint, which is obviously untrue and rather insulting.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with watching the most hardcore stuff that's out there, as long as you don't let it warp your concept of right and wrong. Fantasies are fine, as long as they stay that way. I think that most people are strong enough to know what's suitable in which situation.
im not suggesting that ALL males are like this. definitely not (i know from experience ;)) but it CAN potentially act as either a protective or risk factor to the well being of the individual and society as a whole. numerous fetish rape+murder cases across the globe have been inspired by past sexual predators/figures/porn actors. i dont really want to put such disturbing videos and reports on AN, but i would highly recommend you try finding such cases yourself. there are many that are available online.
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hahahah oh god... it was meant to read 'right'. of all the typos that could have happened... :P
Is the evidence that the viewing of pornography correlates to higher numbers of rape? If so, I'm surprised. I think that there's a danger of underestimating people's self-control in issues like these. It suggests that young men are driven towards one goal with no capacity for restraint, which is obviously untrue and rather insulting.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with watching the most hardcore stuff that's out there, as long as you don't let it warp your concept of right and wrong. Fantasies are fine, as long as they stay that way. I think that most people are strong enough to know what's suitable in which situation.
im not suggesting that ALL males are like this. definitely not (i know from experience ;)) but it CAN potentially act as either a protective or risk factor to the well being of the individual and society as a whole. numerous fetish rape+murder cases across the globe have been inspired by past sexual predators/figures/porn actors. i dont really want to put such disturbing videos and reports on AN, but i would highly recommend you try finding such cases yourself. there are many that are available online.
Reading on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_effects_of_pornography) it says that research has been inconclusive so far.
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dont read wikipedia. it is very 'Layman'. try accessing psychological reports about the issue. maybe refer to certain online textbooks on socioanthropology. you should find some. *if you can be bothered to do this at 12 am*
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dont read wikipedia. it is very 'Layman'. try accessing psychological reports about the issue. maybe refer to certain online textbooks on socioanthropology. you should find some. *if you can be bothered to do this at 12 am*
It isn't perfect, but usually, and in this article, it references psychological studies heavily.
You have a point though. Tomorrow I'll check out some studies, or do some of my own research.
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dont read wikipedia. it is very 'Layman'. try accessing psychological reports about the issue. maybe refer to certain online textbooks on socioanthropology. you should find some. *if you can be bothered to do this at 12 am*
If you go down to the bottom of the linked article you would see that it references academic studies.
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Let's suppose pornography increases the rate of rape or whatever adverse social effects we wanted to attach. Then what?
Ban pornography? By that logic, we should also ban alcohol, violence on TV, and anything which has the potential to cause antisocial behaviour.
Don't ban pornography? In that case, I fail to see the point of this thread.
Somewhat related: http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6478389/girls-watch-porn-too (obscene language, you've been warned)
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I'd go out on a limb and say that pornography's probably not 'tight' :P
(http://i.imgur.com/J4hhM.gif)
Is the evidence that the viewing of pornography correlates to higher numbers of rape? If so, I'm surprised. I think that there's a danger of underestimating people's self-control in issues like these. It suggests that young men are driven towards one goal with no capacity for restraint, which is obviously untrue and rather insulting.
Yeah, i'm not buying this either. If the only reason you don't go out and rape someone is because you haven't seen porn, then, you got deeper issues..
It's like suggesting breaking bad or CSI make someone more likely to go out and cook meth or serial murder.
It might be true in a small number of cases or something like that but i seriously doubt it's driving up rape rates to any appreciable degree.
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Don't ban pornography? In that case, I fail to see the point of this thread.
The thread started off much more related to the personal ethics of it all. Is it right for you or me as an individual to consume something like this rather than anything to do with rape or harm society. Those came later.
Let's suppose pornography increases the rate of rape or whatever adverse social effects we wanted to attach. Then what?
Ban pornography? By that logic, we should also ban alcohol, violence on TV, and anything which has the potential to cause antisocial behaviour.
There's a reason we ban heroin or unlicensed surgery. There are things out there that cause significantly more harm to society than the good they bring or the freedom associated with them. It seems uncontroversial things of this nature are banned.
You have to look at it from both sides of the coin: The practical and the theoretical.
Let's take the case of alcohol. Many people consume alcohol on an occasional, responsible basis and don't get hooked on the stuff. Many reading have had alcohol, i doubt we have any alcoholics among us (i hope).
The Fact is alcohol is a significantly addictive drug, more than most people think. It's probably closer to cocaine than marijuana in it's addiction potential. If it came across my desk and i had some magical power to approve it, i'm not confident that i would. For everyone of your friends you casually have a drink with and turn out fine, there are probably a few people pissing up their families wages buying 12 stubbies a day, every day, all year. Sit at a bottleo for a day or two, you'll rapidly see what i mean.
Problem is, it doesn't matter what my theory is, its impractical to ban alcohol, we simply can't just get rid of it. I think the same is true for porn. We'll have an extremely tough time totally restricting access, those who really want it will find it, the internet makes it incredibly easy.
In theory, if porn does cause a serious rise in the rate of sexual assaults in a way that tips the scale towards overwhelming and sustained harm i think we ought to ban it (like heroin). It's roughly the same principal. This is where i disagree with you.
I agree with you in practice because i doubt it would be practical to do so and i don't buy the idea that it significantly increases rape(if it did though, see above).
(If you're in favour of allowing heroin to be freely traded then pick something else like unlicensed surgery/live organ harvesting/banning people without a license from driving)
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Well, there you go. And here I was under the impression (before I wrote this thread) that society believes that only 'dirty' guys watch porn and 'decent' guys don't only not watch porn, they don't fantasise about other women (particularly when in a relationship) and it only takes one instance of fantasising about another woman whilst in a relationship to commit adultery (as in, the fantasising itself is adultery). Talk about thoughtcrime.
And I was afraid I'd get shunned for even mentioning it.
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Well, there you go. And here I was under the impression (before I wrote this thread) that society believes that only 'dirty' guys watch porn and 'decent' guys don't only not watch porn, they don't fantasise about other women (particularly when in a relationship) and it only takes one instance of fantasising about another woman whilst in a relationship to commit adultery (as in, the fantasising itself is adultery). Talk about thoughtcrime.
I find this funny; I often point out girls to my girlfriend and ask if she thinks they're hot. Adulterers all day erryday
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Well, there you go. And here I was under the impression (before I wrote this thread) that society believes that only 'dirty' guys watch porn and 'decent' guys don't only not watch porn, they don't fantasise about other women (particularly when in a relationship) and it only takes one instance of fantasising about another woman whilst in a relationship to commit adultery (as in, the fantasising itself is adultery). Talk about thoughtcrime.
I find this funny; I often point out girls to my girlfriend and ask if she thinks they're hot. Adulterers all day erryday
LOL NAICE. I would not DARE mention another girl to my girlfriend (if i had one, that is!), unless she's some kind of friend - and never would I comment on her appearance.
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To be honest, it's never nice to be unnatural, just because you're in a relationship doesn't mean you can't find someone else attractive. There's a difference between finding a person attractive and being attracted to somebody. I find heaps of girls attractive, celebrities, models, musicians, even friends, but it doesn't mean that I'm attracted to them. If, overnight, I'm suddenly in a relationship, it doesn't mean that I'll suddenly stop finding all those girls attractive, everything will remain the same and I should admit that it is so.
Not mentioning other girls to your girlfriend and furthermore, just not talking about anyone else's appearance is unnatural because that's not how you would normally act around someone, you're not being yourself. Just because you find someone attractive doesn't mean you want to commit adultery.
Anyways, onto the topic of porn, I disagree that only dirty guys watch porn - define dirty - you'll probably find that many decent people you work with every day and are friends with are probably "dirty" - it's a touchy issue, but I should mention that just because you fantasise about something doesn't mean you'll commit adultery and how is fantasising commiting adultery? That's like saying if I imagine myself killing someone, I'm committing murder - just saying.
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I am quite ambivalent on this whole topic, and I can appreciate the antagonism it brings up between sets of ethics. I have had discussions with girls who profess to be feminists and have different perspectives on the issue of pornography -- some see it as a manifestation of patriarchy and others see it as a liberating force and endowing women with more sexuality and control over their bodies. Like most things, nothing is clear cut. I do not think pornography, in all it manifestations, is inherently exploitative or even liberating.
Cultural relativism is also an interesting discussion and was briefly pointed out by one of the posters (enwiabeard, perhaps?). I think that culture manifests itself differently and has different protocols surrounding sex; however, underlying all of this we seem to share very close values and are in fact sexual beings. Most people are non-violent, most people do not need to be told that they should respect the dignity and interests of their fellow peers. With sex, however, there is this power present that many do not wish to recognise. Sex is about power imbalance, an assertion of your will upon someone else and the assertion of their will upon you.
Sex is a messy, visceral struggle. Trying to legislate in such an area is very difficult and this extends to pornography as it can be genuinely difficult to draw the line about what degree of power imbalance is acceptable (all lines drawn are arbitrary and built atop the foundations of a particular philosophical and moral traditions, for example, pederastic behaviour was very much accepted in ancient Greece and the Mayans had sexual relations with children-adolescents and what we would clinically diagnose as 'paedophilia' and 'ephebophilia'). Kingpomba rightly argued that legislation around these sorts of things is very difficult. But, there are still very clear theoretical biases within the judicial systems against people who consensually participate in menage a trois relationships, sadomasochism or have a fetish that challenges the archetype of a heterosexual citizen (leaders want a community that is transmitting genes for more taxpayers, really).
People who are generally against pornography still hold to the view that humans are inherently monogamous. I am not so certain about this as I think there is compelling evolutionary evidence to suggest this is not the case. I know, at least for myself, I do not direct my thoughts to just one person; I am sexually attracted to more than one person. Exclusivity does not seem to correspond to my mindset, but I recognise it as a social practice we invest a lot into, i.e. marriage arrangements and the property laws associated with such (not that I agree with marriage or all property laws, personally). This exclusivity is not necessarily a product of our instincts, but an amalgamation of socio-economic factors and competing desires. Personally, I have competing more cerebral desires to participate in society in socio-economic terms that require exclusivity; exclusivity is therefore the practice of my life. De facto rules have a lot of sway.
In general, I trust that most people do not act violently and do not want to consume media where real violence is committed against someone else. For "the violent few", they will always be condemned under theoretical laws. However, these laws and their theoretical foundations need a shake up and to accommodate that sexuality is a fluid construct and that laws are contingent upon shifting social views of what is the appropriate power imbalance between individuals in sex and pornography. Currently, our laws do not fully reflect our liberal tradition and border on a fundamentalist view of sexuality and pornography.
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"Currently, our laws do not fully reflect our liberal tradition and border on a fundamentalist view of sexuality and pornography."
Examples?
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Various niche subgroups of pornography are banned outright because of our system. Many people would argue they deserve to be banned (debatable) but there are also some truly idiotic and negative body image decisions out of the classification board (apparently you can't show small breasts or natural labia)
http://boingboing.net/2010/01/28/australian-censor-bo.html
http://dodsonandross.com/blogs/carlin-ross/2011/03/photoshopping-labia-comply-obscenity-laws-australia
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This is a taboo topic - but remember our line - if taboo topics are not discussed, informed and sophisticated views cannot be made as easily.
Also, this topic can be quite...amenable to memes/jokes. While a little bit of a laugh can be ok, please have some maturity about it.
I raise this (a bit belatedly!) because of the advent of the erotica 50 Shades of Grey, read mostly by women (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). It raises a point now.
Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like. However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?"
Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.
Now remember, this is merely a discussion of ideas. You are not to judge other people for what they say - if people feel as though they are going to be judged for what they say, they will refrain from saying anything, and their ideas will not have any opportunity for refinement.
Also: NO TROLLING. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.
tl;dr
Recently at my school, we had a person come in and talk to us about healthy relationships - with a particular focus on the role of pornography in our current society. Basically, it's becoming an addiction amongst our generation, because it's 1) accessible, 2) affordable and 3) anonymous (or supposedly anonymous). When people become totally dependent on it, they escalate and start to seek more 'hardcore' content - not realising they are literally killing their sex drive as it's very difficult to "go backwards", if that makes sense. They start to become desensitised and stop caring about the thoughts and feelings of other people and during sex, people are only considered as 'objects' by those involved. They eventually reach a stage where no content can fulfill their urges and they turn to murder, rape and other horrible crimes to provide themselves with sexual satisfaction.
The lecture totally changed my ideas on pornography. This isn't to say it happens to everyone, but it does explain the rise in unsuccessful relationships in our community.
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"Currently, our laws do not fully reflect our liberal tradition and border on a fundamentalist view of sexuality and pornography."
Examples?
There is an interesting case (R v Brown) that illustrates the disregard of consent in sadomasochistic relationships between homosexual men in a long-term relationship (the case also talks about media that the group produced for its own chronicling). I believe we use this decision as a persuasive precedent in Australia also. This needs to be contrasted with the case accepting consent in marriage as legitimating sadomasochistic acts (R v Wilson). In fact, despite the ostensible grotesqueness of R v Brown, there was no need to go to the hospital or seek medical attention. In R v Wilson, there was and it was still deemed acceptable by the law. Individuals who practices sadomasochism, that is a consensual sexual practice between adults, will be viewed and treated differently by the law just based on whether they are heterosexual or not.
The fact that we only have a marriage act that recognises heterosexual relationships and that the judicial system will talk of sexual acts being perverse even though they are consensual and with fully informed adults. This contravenes the liberal harm principle that one would assume is present in a liberal democracy. Read J. S. Mill's 'On Liberty' if you need to see the introductory philosophy of this principle and how it relates to the classical liberal tradition. I am using liberal in a very specific way here.
Now, if you think holding the ideal of heterosexual relationships is independent of religious fundamentalism, I disagree entirely. Pornography being a form of 'adultery' is also a deeply rooted fundamentalist belief. I would love to see a liberal argue that one can commit thought crimes as most believe we have the right to "thought and conscience" as long as it does not impede upon others. Consensual, homosexual sadomasochism does not impinge upon this rule.
Office of Film and Literature Guidelines (2000). "Films (except RC films) that: (a) contain real depictions of actual sexual activity between consenting adults in which there is no violence, sexual violence, sexualised violence, coercion, sexually assaulting language, or fetishes or depictions which purposefully demean anyone involved in that activity for the enjoyment of viewers, in a way that is likely to cause offence to a reasonable adult; and (b) are unsuitable for a minor to see".
Seems to filter out a lot of fetishes to do with sadomasochism between consenting adults. They also seem to forget these people are actors and what each of us find demeaning or violent is very subjective, i.e. what you think would undermine your dignity is probably different to what I think undermines mine. This "reasonable adult" business also preferences a certain demographic of people who are heterosexual and have very different fetishes. Is scratching your partner during the throes of passion violent? What about slapping someone's posterior? I think that all comes down to consent between the adults.
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i leave u with this ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZqnTOoBKi0
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This is a taboo topic - but remember our line - if taboo topics are not discussed, informed and sophisticated views cannot be made as easily.
Also, this topic can be quite...amenable to memes/jokes. While a little bit of a laugh can be ok, please have some maturity about it.
I raise this (a bit belatedly!) because of the advent of the erotica 50 Shades of Grey, read mostly by women (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). It raises a point now.
Of course it isn't 100% right to watch (and read?) it, we have our usual arguments about degradation and the like. However, to what extent should people be shunned for watching it? Should they or should they not be forgiven? Where do our expectations lie? Is the situation "if he watches it he's a bastard and should be shunned and that is that" or "it would be good if he doesn't watch it, but he can be forgiven for doing so?"
Another scope of discussion is the role of pornography/erotica in relationships. As it stands, in some relationships its central and embraced by both the male and female, in others it's banned.
Now remember, this is merely a discussion of ideas. You are not to judge other people for what they say - if people feel as though they are going to be judged for what they say, they will refrain from saying anything, and their ideas will not have any opportunity for refinement.
Also: NO TROLLING. NO PERSONAL ATTACKS.
tl;dr
Recently at my school, we had a person come in and talk to us about healthy relationships - with a particular focus on the role of pornography in our current society. Basically, it's becoming an addiction amongst our generation, because it's 1) accessible, 2) affordable and 3) anonymous (or supposedly anonymous). When people become totally dependent on it, they escalate and start to seek more 'hardcore' content - not realising they are literally killing their sex drive as it's very difficult to "go backwards", if that makes sense. They start to become desensitised and stop caring about the thoughts and feelings of other people and during sex, people are only considered as 'objects' by those involved. They eventually reach a stage where no content can fulfill their urges and they turn to murder, rape and other horrible crimes to provide themselves with sexual satisfaction.
The lecture totally changed my ideas on pornography. This isn't to say it happens to everyone, but it does explain the rise in unsuccessful relationships in our community.
That whole lecture can be summarized in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope#Fallacy
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It seems like a hugely flawed argument. I'm not aware of any data that shows a relationship, positive or negative, between pornography consumption and rates of rape, murder etc.. The way you said it made it sound as if anyone who watches porn inevitably turns to rape and murder to satisfy themselves, as they "can't go back".
I don't think that you should let that lecture change your opinion on pornography, as there is no evidence to support its contention.
I could say that global warming has led to the rise in "unsuccessful relationships", but it would be pointless because there is no proof whatsoever to support this, much like the assertion that pornography consumption leads to rape and murder.
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Recently at my school, we had a person come in and talk to us about healthy relationships - with a particular focus on the role of pornography in our current society....
That doesn't make it true though, does it? Just because someone is older or supposedly smarter it doesn't necessarily make their idea right. I don't say this because of the above but due to the below where you took it to be true simply because some guy told you it was. I don't think it's all that brazen to question his motives and intentions considering he goes around giving preaching about this topic.
Basically, it's becoming an addiction amongst our generation, because it's 1) accessible, 2) affordable and 3) anonymous (or supposedly anonymous).
Addiction is a strong and emotive word, we have to be careful with how we use it. It's very hard to nail down and unless this guy was a medical professional or scientist, i'd be weary of what he labels an "addiction" (especially considering a possible agenda).
We have to separate what is normal and an addiction and what isn't (without being too narrow either).
It's clear things we do on a regular basis that are essential for survival like eating, drinking, sleeping and sex aren't addictions within themselves. They make us feel happy and good, we crave them. This craving drives us to do essential things because they are pleasurable much in the same way that pain drives us to not do harmful things.
We see this in the lab with rats. How do you make a rat happy? For one, you can give him food. Our little rats dopamine (a chemical involved in pleasure & happiness) spikes up. You can also introduce a female rat and let them get their mojo on. This makes our rats dopamine spike up even more. Much the same happens in us but like i said above, these things are normal and it's important they're pleasurable and rewarding because they are crucial to survival (Incidentally, heroin makes it shoot way, way up much more than an orgasm or eating, which is one of the reasons it is so addictive, because it's just that good).
I'm not convinced the accusation that it's addictive or bad is based on science rather than morality. If someone has sex with their partner a few times a week and their dopamine shoots up, you wouldn't say they're a junkie. Under the assumption pornography works in much the same way, if someone chooses to consume it a few times a week, i fail to see why its much different in any kind of chemical or psychological sense. I'm not totally convinced that this doesn't result from a narrow view of what might be normal or right, it wasn't that long ago that many people believed homosexuality was a mental disorder. Likewise, i think "internet addiction" is partially related to the fact the authors of these manuals were born in a different time.
I found it rather hard (even with all the resources uni gives me) to find many things on non-drug addiction, let alone this topic. I did manage to find a general framework here, it goes like this:
In the case of behavioral addictions, it is important that patients be evaluated in the context of several other factors, including the extent to which their behavior (1) disrupts personal, family, social, or vocational pursuits;(2)causes significant personal distress to self or others; (3) has risk or potential for significant physical or emotional harm to self or others; (4) is uncontrollable or resistant to change (eg, patient feels out of control or unable to reduce or change the behavior), and (5) is not better accounted for by an alternate psychiatric diagnosis
Looking at it in this way, i doubt the vast majority of people are addicts or "our generation is becoming addicted" assuming it occurs a few times a week and consumes no more than a few hours. I think of course a few people will be addicted to it much in the same way some people can be addicted to food (that is they compulsively overeat).
Of course, it's also important to note that to be an addiction it must be compulsive and hard to control but it also must cause significant harm or impairment. If you're staying home from school or missing work or its so hard to control you have to fire it up on the train, then, that is a problem. If it's simply because you're bored, have a lot of free time and have a sex drive, i'm not at all convinced that a person like this is anything close to addicted.
When people become totally dependent on it, they escalate and start to seek more 'hardcore' content - not realising they are literally killing their sex drive as it's very difficult to "go backwards", if that makes sense. They start to become desensitised and stop caring about the thoughts and feelings of other people and during sex, people are only considered as 'objects' by those involved. They eventually reach a stage where no content can fulfill their urges and they turn to murder, rape and other horrible crimes to provide themselves with sexual satisfaction.
I dont know if this is true. It seems like they're trying to apply a substance addiction model (eg. coke, heroin) to porn. It is true these drugs, you do need to "escalate" or increase your dose but that is for a very different reason. They're not increasing the dose because want an even larger high, they're increasing the dose to be able to maintain the same high as (your body gets better at eliminating or responding to the drug*).
Gambling is a good example because it doesn't involve a drug. This study asked if gamblers constantly increased their bet size to gain the same rush or if it was down to things like poor financial management or chasing losses. They found you probably can't become tolerant to gambling in the same way you can with drugs. We can apply that to porn. Many seem to discover it around puberty so i'm sure at least a few people have been at it for a good couple of years, those of you out there(dont need to put your hand up), i doubt many of you needed to constantly kick it up a notch to be satisfied to the point of watching rape as stick suggests.
I'm not convinced if its operating in the direction you're speculating. That consuming pornography, especially of the kind most people don't consume (violent, etc), leads to the urge to murder, rape etc. I think it might actually work the other way, people who already do have the urge to murder or rape will be excited by these kind of things and seek them out, they definitely won't find them objectionable like a normal person either. (Just speculating) In much the same way, people experience social difficulties, depression and other problems might be more likely to compulsively turn to pornography BECAUSE of those things rather than porn causing those things. So, porn addiction might be a symptom not a cause.
Look, if it's as dire as your speaker suggested, the past 50 years in the western world have seen an explosion in the availability and acceptance of pornography, murder and rape rates would have skyrocketed. They haven't, in many places they fell significantly. In the third world where people have little access to internet or pornography in general, you'll find much higher rape and murder rates compared to the west.
*technically called pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic tolerance for those who are interested
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I could say that global warming has led to the rise in "unsuccessful relationships"
It's certainly decimated our pirate population...
(http://sparrowism.soc.srcf.net/home/piratesarecool4.gif)
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I only wish you could perhaps speak to him over this matter, because it'd create a really interesting conversation.
https://www.facebook.com/DavidandKatieKobler?fref=ts
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I only wish you could perhaps speak to him over this matter, because it'd create a really interesting conversation.
https://www.facebook.com/DavidandKatieKobler?fref=ts
What are their credentials? It doesn't say anywhere on the page...
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No idea, but he told us that he was happy to take further questions from us. If anyone wants more information about what I presented, go to him. :)
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I only wish you could perhaps speak to him over this matter, because it'd create a really interesting conversation.
https://www.facebook.com/DavidandKatieKobler?fref=ts
What are their credentials? It doesn't say anywhere on the page...
"Friend of god" a credential?
http://pinterest.com/katiekobler/
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I would partially disagree with the notion that pornography addiction is a symptom, not a cause. I think it can occur in and of itself; pornography is associated with carnal pleasure, yes? It would stimulate our pleasure centres in the brain. Now that is, in and of itself, okay. However, you could call it an addiction when you experience a compulsion, a dependence, on porn. Sometimes you know that that dependence is not good for you (say it detracts from your sex life with your wife/girlfriend), yet you simply could not resist. That's addiction. There are a variety of things that could cause addiction - pornography for one, Facebook for another (I would consider myself an addict - I'm pretty much dependent on it).
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I only wish you could perhaps speak to him over this matter, because it'd create a really interesting conversation.
https://www.facebook.com/DavidandKatieKobler?fref=ts
What are their credentials? It doesn't say anywhere on the page...
"Friend of god" a credential?
http://pinterest.com/katiekobler/
Yeah I suppose being upstanding Christian's is good enough :P !
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There is pretty reasonable evidence that exposure to porn without exposure to a normalised sexual relationship does alter a teenager's ability to sexually interact and redefines norms, so in that sense, it is causing a downwards trend in relationships. Whether or not it drives you to murder is kind of a stretch though.
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There is pretty reasonable evidence that exposure to porn without exposure to a normalised sexual relationship does alter a teenager's ability to sexually interact and redefines norms, so in that sense, it is causing a downwards trend in relationships. Whether or not it drives you to murder is kind of a stretch though.
In that case, it wouldn't be a good idea to watch porn then. Ah.
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As an impressionable 14 year old, no it wouldn't be. That's why it's illegal.
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True. So unless you're sexually active, watching porn isn't a good idea then.
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True. So unless you're sexually active, watching porn isn't a good idea then.
This is all just generalizing though. What happens to the majority of people does not necessarily happen to the individual.
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True. So unless you're sexually active, watching porn isn't a good idea then.
This is all just generalizing though. What happens to the majority of people does not necessarily happen to the individual.
Mhm. Except that it'd be better to not do it, just to mitigate the risk.
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There is pretty reasonable evidence that exposure to porn without exposure to a normalised sexual relationship does alter a teenager's ability to sexually interact and redefines norms, so in that sense, it is causing a downwards trend in relationships. Whether or not it drives you to murder is kind of a stretch though.
Do you have a link?
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If you have a google scholar search of sexual scripts/porn and relationships etc. there's a bunch of stuff there
Despite the URL, this is a reasonable approach (and is rather short). This is a brief, but referenced article
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If you have a google scholar search of sexual scripts/porn and relationships etc. there's a bunch of stuff there
Despite the URL, this is a reasonable approach (and is rather short). This is a brief, but referenced article
Thanks, they're both interesting reads.
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I would partially disagree with the notion that pornography addiction is a symptom, not a cause.
I didn't say that. I pointed out that it is possible to become addicted to things that are crucial to our survival like food in a very small minority of cases. You eat to the point of compulsive obsession. The sex drive seems like no exception. This small proportion of people who become addicted to food or pornography is hardly at a crisis point like Stick's speaker suggested though or above any kind of normal level, porn is no heroin.
What i was trying to say was that many people who are supposed "addicted" or "overuse" pornography might be doing so because of other conditions they previously had, much in the same way depressed people are more likely to abuse alcohol.
Dependence is where going without it is almost maddening. I'm convinced almost everyone who watches it could go a few days or a week and not be a total wreck.
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This is a brief, but referenced article
I looked it up in Ulrich and it's not a peer reviewed journal, you can publish pretty much whatever you like without anyone checking out whether its scientifically true or accurate (eg. not total bullshit).
(http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/9627/ulrichesperiodical.png)
Despite the URL, this is a reasonable approach (and is rather short).
The other article doesn't even appear to have been published at all. Indeed, all the citations i could find point back to that website it was uploaded on, the social costs of pornography, so it appears it originated on that website and perhaps was even written for that website (they obviously have an agenda to push as well).
If the history of dodgy science has taught us anything, its that publication and peer review are crucial to science as we know it. There's no reason we should accept these articles are worth anything, they haven't been published in peer reviewed journals and checked by experts who do understand these things.
None of us here are experts in this field so we lack the knowledge to comprehensively evaluate them properly.
You seemed to be firmly convinced that it causes harm, so, where are the proper articles that convinced you? Unless you just thought it was reasonable or it fitted your view and just ran with it. I got no problem if you want to do that but it clearly ain't science
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Yes, I am aware of what peer review is, there's no need to be patronizing. In this context, I didn't find it particularly relevant, so I didn't bother ticking the box that says "peer reviewed only"
If you insist though, go look at issn 1072-0162,
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How about take the precautionary principle and just abstain from pornography altogether? You could use your imagination instead to satisfy your sexual fantasies. There'd be conflicting evidence, and there are some reasonable arguments to suggest porn could negatively affect relationships. Plus, most of us are quite progressive here...but chances are there are a lot of other people out there, girls included, who will not be okay with your watching porn. Hence, perhaps it would be a good idea, purely for the sake of future relationships, to stay on the safe side and not watch porn if you can help it. Perhaps you could forgive yourself if you succumb to temptation occasionally, but best not to watch it on a regular basis.
What you guys reckon?
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How about take the precautionary principle and just abstain from pornography altogether? You could use your imagination instead to satisfy your sexual fantasies. There'd be conflicting evidence, and there are some reasonable arguments to suggest porn could negatively affect relationships. Plus, most of us are quite progressive here...but chances are there are a lot of other people out there, girls included, who will not be okay with your watching porn. Hence, perhaps it would be a good idea, purely for the sake of future relationships, to stay on the safe side and not watch porn if you can help it. Perhaps you could forgive yourself if you succumb to temptation occasionally, but best not to watch it on a regular basis.
What you guys reckon?
I think that strays dangerously into the territory of shaming people for having perfectly healthy sexual drives and desires, which could be a lot more damaging than watching porn.
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How about take the precautionary principle and just abstain from pornography altogether? You could use your imagination instead to satisfy your sexual fantasies. There'd be conflicting evidence, and there are some reasonable arguments to suggest porn could negatively affect relationships. Plus, most of us are quite progressive here...but chances are there are a lot of other people out there, girls included, who will not be okay with your watching porn. Hence, perhaps it would be a good idea, purely for the sake of future relationships, to stay on the safe side and not watch porn if you can help it. Perhaps you could forgive yourself if you succumb to temptation occasionally, but best not to watch it on a regular basis.
What you guys reckon?
Thush, I don't understand why people who think watching porn is OK should change their opinion to say that it's not OK. I think that that's a backwards movement, that we're not encouraging openness and understanding, because no matter how you look at it, people are going to watch porn. I would say that it's much better if those who don't think watching porn is OK change their views, because if everybody thinks that watching porn is OK, many people are much more likely to be open about it and it no longer becomes a taboo topic - the reason why it is taboo at the moment is because there's a large group who aren't OK with others watching porn.
Just my opinion, of course, but I just think that some issues might actually be caused by the fact that it's a taboo topic.
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How about take the precautionary principle and just abstain from pornography altogether? You could use your imagination instead to satisfy your sexual fantasies. There'd be conflicting evidence, and there are some reasonable arguments to suggest porn could negatively affect relationships. Plus, most of us are quite progressive here...but chances are there are a lot of other people out there, girls included, who will not be okay with your watching porn. Hence, perhaps it would be a good idea, purely for the sake of future relationships, to stay on the safe side and not watch porn if you can help it. Perhaps you could forgive yourself if you succumb to temptation occasionally, but best not to watch it on a regular basis.
What you guys reckon?
I think that strays dangerously into the territory of shaming people for having perfectly healthy sexual drives and desires, which could be a lot more damaging than watching porn.
Hmm. Not necessarily I reckon. It's a matter of personal choice, really. We can be okay with other people watching porn, but we may ourselves abstain from it simply as a precaution. I would say that it's okay to speak up, saying that it is perfectly okay, but at the same time we do have to protect our relationships. So we may be able to say it is okay, but we can abstain from it because others (particularly those important to us) say it's not okay. However, watching porn would not be a bad idea if your partner is okay with it.
How about take the precautionary principle and just abstain from pornography altogether? You could use your imagination instead to satisfy your sexual fantasies. There'd be conflicting evidence, and there are some reasonable arguments to suggest porn could negatively affect relationships. Plus, most of us are quite progressive here...but chances are there are a lot of other people out there, girls included, who will not be okay with your watching porn. Hence, perhaps it would be a good idea, purely for the sake of future relationships, to stay on the safe side and not watch porn if you can help it. Perhaps you could forgive yourself if you succumb to temptation occasionally, but best not to watch it on a regular basis.
What you guys reckon?
Thush, I don't understand why people who think watching porn is OK should change their opinion to say that it's not OK. I think that that's a backwards movement, that we're not encouraging openness and understanding, because no matter how you look at it, people are going to watch porn. I would say that it's much better if those who don't think watching porn is OK change their views, because if everybody thinks that watching porn is OK, many people are much more likely to be open about it and it no longer becomes a taboo topic - the reason why it is taboo at the moment is because there's a large group who aren't OK with others watching porn.
Just my opinion, of course, but I just think that some issues might actually be caused by the fact that it's a taboo topic.
Haha I didn't suggest that we should say that its not OK - I said that it would be a good idea to not watch it ourselves, whilst a significant fraction of the population thinks its not okay and will shun you for it, damaging your relationships (hence the reason why it is taboo). It would be a backwards movement if we were to actually shun people ourselves for them watching porn. But we don't have to do that. We can be okay with others watching it, but maybe it is best if we do not watch it so as to not potentially damage our relationships. Unless our partner were okay with it.
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What if two people in a relationship want to watch porn together?
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In that case, it's all good. :)
"However, watching porn would not be a bad idea if your partner is okay with it."
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Now I am wondering how common that is in relationships.
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Now I am wondering how common that is in relationships.
I'd have thought a low number. But in all honesty, no idea. Anyone got figures?
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Hmm. Not necessarily I reckon. It's a matter of personal choice, really. We can be okay with other people watching porn, but we may ourselves abstain from it simply as a precaution. I would say that it's okay to speak up, saying that it is perfectly okay, but at the same time we do have to protect our relationships. So we may be able to say it is okay, but we can abstain from it because others (particularly those important to us) say it's not okay. However, watching porn would not be a bad idea if your partner is okay with it.
I guess we just have difference conceptions of what the boundaries should be in a relationship - and that's perfectly fine :)
Personally, I believe that your sexuality is your business only, and I have no right to interfere in it whether I'm in a relationship, engaged or married to you. Even if I were not okay with porn myself, I would never expect any partner of mine to abstain from it.
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That's good. Yeah, you're right, I guess different people have different boundaries.
However, I would say that not every woman/man would be okay with their partner watching porn and demand that you abstain. Then again, all you'd need to do is to well...abstain (if you think it's a reasonable demand). However...the other concern is that your potential partner may leave you if he/she found out (from admission or otherwise) that you HAVE watched porn before. Is this a legit concern?
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If your partner leaves you because you have previously, at some point in your life, watched porn, then you dodged a massive fucking bullet and you should be thankful for watching it.
Now I am wondering how common that is in relationships.
I'd have thought a low number. But in all honesty, no idea. Anyone got figures?
44% according to one study (yes, peer reviewed)
Incidentally
Those who viewed SEM only with their partners reported more dedication and higher sexual satisfaction than those who viewed SEM alone.
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That's good. Yeah, you're right, I guess different people have different boundaries.
However, I would say that not every woman/man would be okay with their partner watching porn and demand that you abstain. Then again, all you'd need to do is to well...abstain (if you think it's a reasonable demand). However...the other concern is that your potential partner may leave you if he/she found out (from admission or otherwise) that you HAVE watched porn before. Is this a legit concern?
I agree with Russ that if someone who leaves you over something that petty, count that as bullet dodged. Never stick your dick in crazy
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44% according to one study (yes, peer reviewed)
Heh. 8)
Never stick your dick in crazy
This is the golden rule. Unfortunately, I cannot say I have always kept to this rule. But, then again, we all tend to think our exes are crazy, eh?
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That's good. Yeah, you're right, I guess different people have different boundaries.
However, I would say that not every woman/man would be okay with their partner watching porn and demand that you abstain. Then again, all you'd need to do is to well...abstain (if you think it's a reasonable demand). However...the other concern is that your potential partner may leave you if he/she found out (from admission or otherwise) that you HAVE watched porn before. Is this a legit concern?
I agree with Russ that if someone who leaves you over something that petty, count that as bullet dodged. Never stick your dick in crazy
LOL!
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I agree with Nina and Russ, partners shouldn't be overbearing, in fact, it's probably negative for the relationship to be placing such extreme "restrictions" (for a lack of a better word) on each other.
But Russ is defs right in saying that you've dodged a massive bullet if a partner leaves you for watching porn, because if she/he is going to leave you for such a menial and "OK" thing, then who knows what other things could prompt a break-up/divorce.
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That's good. Yeah, you're right, I guess different people have different boundaries.
However, I would say that not every woman/man would be okay with their partner watching porn and demand that you abstain. Then again, all you'd need to do is to well...abstain (if you think it's a reasonable demand). However...the other concern is that your potential partner may leave you if he/she found out (from admission or otherwise) that you HAVE watched porn before. Is this a legit concern?
I agree with Russ that if someone who leaves you over something that petty, count that as bullet dodged. Never stick your dick in crazy
Hmm. Question is, how many of us (as in general public) would leave our partner if we found out that they had watched porn before, say regularly?
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Anyone who answered yes to that question should be seeking therapy
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LOL some of us'd say its not normal - hence the therapy recommendation. However, what about the general public?
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Hmm. Question is, how many of us (as in general public) would leave our partner if we found out that they had watched porn before, say regularly?
I would probably do a dance and thank all deities for granting her to me.