ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: ombrophile on August 02, 2013, 07:23:52 pm
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Is 'medicine' a plausible goal for a mediocre year 10 student?
This question has honestly been eating away my insides.
99.95 atar, is undoubtedly shooting for the stars and landing a bulls eye.
Is it possible, for not necessarily an underachiever, as I am in one of the two smart classes present in my school, but rather an un-gifted and talent less student to land in medicine? (Melbourne)
Any personal anecdotes, per say? *desperation*
Much thanks.
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Is 'medicine' a plausible goal for a mediocre year 10 student?
This question has honestly been eating away my insides.
99.95 atar, is undoubtedly shooting for the stars and landing a bulls eye.
Is it possible, for not necessarily an underachiever, as I am in one of the two smart classes present in my school, but rather an un-gifted and talent less student to land in medicine? (Melbourne)
Any personal anecdotes, per say? *desperation*
Much thanks.
It's doable for anyone if they really want to do it :) Set your goals high, and the worst you can do is fall short. But hey, won't you do better than you would have without the goal in the first place?
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Is it possible, for not necessarily an underachiever, as I am in one of the two smart classes present in my school, but rather an un-gifted and talent less student to land in medicine? (Melbourne)
Hi there :)
You are in that 'smart' class or accelerated class for a reason. It is certainly not because you are not talented - quite the contrary :P. I don't even know you, but this modesty that you have demonstrated here is a vital part of succeeding in VCE. I also believe that being a modest person is indispensable when it comes to studying medicine and being a doctor, because that's what I envision a typical, affable physician personality to be like.
In my opinion, to get into medicine, you don't need to be excessively and unattainably intelligent. Instead, you need to have a strong desire and will to enter the field, as well as having the ability to work hard. Most importantly, believe in yourself and have faith that someday you will become a doctor.
Definitely shoot for the stars, but make sure that you are working to achieve your goals, rather than just dreaming.
I am not a medical student, nor am I a doctor, but I do believe myself to be in a similar position to you.
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Definitely shoot for the stars, but make sure that you are working to achieve your goals, rather than just dreaming.
You exude a sense of believability,
Or maybe Its just me trying to seek an aesthetic sense of assurance,
Nonetheless,
Thank-you, a lot.
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It's doable for anyone if they really want to do it :) Set your goals high, and the worst you can do is fall short. But hey, won't you do better than you would have without the goal in the first place?
Wow, your living proof of such an entity.
Thanks.
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Some of the text below may come across as though I'm blowing my own trumpet but I think that I need to explain my situation to help OP.
Let me tell you a little bit about myself.
When I was a young child, everyone thought I was very intelligent. People would always praise me to my parents about how courteous, respectful, mature and intelligent I was. My parents got me started on learning quite early too so I guess lots of that helped. I cruised through primary school, consistently at the top of my class, still collecting much praise with no difficulty.
Once I hit high school, things started to take a turn for the worse though. Since I was at an elite private school, this was picked up on really quickly (especially given my past track record) and my parents were contacted immediately etc. Nothing really bad happened at all, I just became disinterested in studying hard any more. I really didn't see the point of it and preferred to spend my time playing music (classical guitar and piano), gaming and hanging out with friends.
My parents kept trying to "talk some sense" into me but to no avail. I was just lethargic.
My moment of sudden clarity and realisation was more of a dripping faucet at the back of my mind that increased in pressure over a long period of time during the middle of year 9 towards the start of year 10. I started thinking about what I wanted to do in life and what I wanted to achieve. Constantly slacking off and enjoying life "today" simply was not going to cut it.
I was fortunate enough to live a privileged life and this started playing into my thoughts too (as selfish and taboo as this sounds). I always knew that I would go to university but it was at that point that I decided that it had to be something good. I didn't want to go to university just for the sake of being able to say that I go or get some dead-end job that will take me nowhere in life.
That's when I decided that it was my goal to achieve an ATAR score of 99.95. People laughed at me, people mocked me, people ridiculed me and blatantly told me that I would never achieve that score. In the end they were right, I got an ATAR of 99.85.
In VCE I didn't really think too much about courses or university or anything. I just picked subjects that interested me and that I thought I would do well in.
I must say, I had a huge preconception about what VCE would be liked based on anecdotes from those around me. Long, sleep-less nights, tears, boredom, cramming like a mad hatter for exams..
But now that I look back at the whole experience, cool, calm and collected, it was nothing like that. I never really focussed on the big picture and didn't worry about anything while I was studying. I just focussed intently on the task at hand and ensured that I fully understood the intricacies and nuances of that concept in great detail. I didn't study excessive hours, still managed to hang out with friends every week and even managed to make it to the gym a few times a week.
With all of that said, I thoroughly enjoyed my subjects and pushed myself to study and study effectively during study hours so that I could enjoy other activities later. All of this made my parents very proud, also.
When the time came to put in my VTAC applications, I was perplexed. I always enjoyed quantitative subjects and really enjoyed accounting (it was also my highest raw study score) so I decided that I wanted to study a Bachelor of Commerce at The University of Melbourne.
My parents always had dreams of me becoming a doctor and despite my non-existent desire to go into medicine, I decided that I would apply to James Cook University for a place (I didn't sit the UMAT and JCU doesn't require the UMAT). I did end up getting in but I didn't accept the offer.
I'm currently studying the BCom program at the UoM and I couldn't be happier. I employed the same study skills and habits I developed in VCE (although I studied a lot less) in semester 1 and I ended up doing okay.
So that's my story there for you.
All I can say is that do what you enjoy. Evaluate your priorities and set one or more goals. Work towards that and hopefully you'll get there.
Best of luck,
Gekko.
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Wow, your living proof of such an entity.
Thanks.
That's very kind of you!
It really is the way to look at things in my eyes though. There's no point setting "sensible goals". Go nuts, dream and work for that dream. The worst you can do is fall short, just like I said! Doing all that work though and falling short is certainly going to put you in better stead than setting a crappier goal and falling short of that. If you want it, work for it. Med will be as feasible as you make it.
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I would say to sit down, and think hard, and decide. If medicine is what YOU want to do, then don't let anything stop you. If it's not, then think some more, and work out what you REALLY want to do.
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If you have the willpower and drive to get into Medicine, there's a high chance that you will get there eventually. But it's all about not giving up, no matter how many times you fail.
Many aspiring medical students will fail in getting into Medicine at least once in their lives, but those who are eventually successful don't let their failures weigh them down. They try harder. You can either give up or keep fighting for what you really want. Yes, everyone who wants to be a doctor will always ask themselves "will I ever get into Medicine/do I even have a chance?", but focus more on the "doing" part and you'll be on your path there, someday.
I have read about people sitting the GAMSAT at least 8 times, and students beginning their graduate medicine course when they're in their 30s and 40s. It ultimately comes down to how much you want it, and if you want it really badly, you will get there. Eventually.
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Now I agree with a lot of the posts in this thread and the general vibe of the "if there's a will there's a way" type of thing, the need for deep thinking, and a high patience threshold.
But someone has to be the "bad guy".
Now what I don't like is:
Is it possible, for not necessarily an underachiever, as I am in one of the two smart classes present in my school, but rather an un-gifted and talent less student to land in medicine? (Melbourne)
Ok so being realistic, I think getting into a course like medicine requires a few things, one of which is a willing to improve. Now, the first step to that is through believing that you can do well and you can do better. Every day is a new day and chance to improve. That's the ideal mindset of a medical student and probably for any one in general. Now I say this because being a "medical student" isn't "special", it's just about having an interest in the right things and being a good person.
If you, form the outset, believe you have "less talent", you're not going to make the cut. You can't get through the selection criteria with that sort of attitude. Now I know I sound pretty harsh, especially as this thread might have a purpose of changing this attitude, but a lot of it has to come from you and not from the words of randoms on the internet. Ye old "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" kind of thing.
The first step to medicine is having the attitude for it, and calling yourself "mediocre" isn't the best way to do that. Luckily, you have 2 years to turn that around. So if I were you, I'd put medicine as my goal (as you seem passionate about it, which is great) and try your best form this point on to turn yourself into someone who's above and beyond the "mediocre".
Why do I say act now? Because let's be honest, you don't want to be trying to get into medicine when you're 25 or 30 or 35 etc. You have a passion now, so you want to get in as soon as possible. Hence, start changing yourself now.
Regards.
edits: typos and some abhorrent grammar
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Anyone can do med man, i'm doing med and my atar wasn't even that high. Not studying it in Australia but overseas already in second year into the course, not a big deal really. Went in after i finished vce. Med just requires a bit of hard work and dedication. To be honest i actually didn't have any interest nor willpower in doing med, parents wanted it. I went with it and its not as bad as people make it out to be. It's interesting and i like it now.
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lol anyone can do med, i'm doing med and my atar wasn't even that high. Not doing it in Australia but overseas already in second year through the course, not a big deal really. Med just requires a bit of hard work and dedication.
Mate we don't all have parents with deep pockets to fund our educational gallivants around the globe :)
And some of us want to study/practice closer to home too.
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lol anyone can do med, i'm doing med and my atar wasn't even that high. Not doing it in Australia but overseas already in second year through the course, not a big deal really. Med just requires a bit of hard work and dedication.
Just adding to what pi has already said:
I hope you like the country you're studying in because if your ATAR "wasn't that high" and you couldn't get into medicine here then I think you're going to struggle with all the examinations you need to sit to practice medicine here.
Good luck anyway, though!
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Yea, i like studying here and yes i know you have to write exams if you want to practice in Australia and i'll work hard and pass them. It's just another obstacle to becoming a doctor. But thats not the point i'm making here. What i am saying is the course Bachelor of Medicine/ Bachelor of Surgery is not as hard as people making it out to be. Yes it does require some hard work but it's not an enormous amount which people seem to think.
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Yea, i like studying here and yes i know you have to write exams if you want to practice in Australia and i'll work hard and pass them. It's just another obstacle to becoming a doctor. But thats not the point i'm making here. What i am saying is the course Bachelor of Medicine/ Bachelor of Surgery is not as hard as people making it out to be. Yes it does require some hard work but it's not an enormous amount which people seem to think.
I think you're also missing the point a bit.
I don't think the OP is necessarily worried about the difficulty of the course. It seems like the OP is worried about making the cut in Australian Medical Schools.
Whether you find the coursework of an Indian medical school to be difficult or not is largely irrelevant.
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I was just giving OP some friendly advice that is all and motivating him to give it a shot. :)
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I was just giving OP some friendly advice that is all and motivating him to give it a shot. :)
Yep I can see where you're going with it.
But again (being the "bad guy" etc etc), there is a height of optimism in my opinion. I don't think giving the message that "studying overseas is an option for those with 'low' ATARs" is necessarily the best message to encourage someone to develop a good mindset for VCE so that they do their best in their own country.
I think as a community, AN is really good at providing HEAPS of support and pulling out all sorts of amazing and inspirational stories. And I love that, I really do. But, I really think there's a limit until a point where it's just too far-fetched to be constructive/helpful. I think the down-votes on your post reflect crossing that line (plus it sounded pretty bad until you edited it).
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Yea, i was typing that one fast on my phone and didn't really check for grammar and structure.
I understand where you are coming from Pi and i respect it. My ATAR isn't as low as you might think it to be. It was in the mid 90's. When i say i didn't get a high ATAR i am comparing it to the standards of getting into med in Australia. I did give medicine a shot when i was in VCE, tried my best unfortunately didn't make the cut so i looked into other options. I am not promoting going overseas as an option to study medicine. I am just saying thats what i did.
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I'm not quite sure why the original post was downvoted so heavily. You don't need to be particularly brilliant to study medicine, which is what he was saying. Dedication and hard work are infinitely more important attributes than being genuinely intelligent (which I think very few people are anyway), for both getting into medical school and for succeeding once you're there.
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I'm not quite sure why the original post was downvoted so heavily. You don't need to be particularly brilliant to study medicine, which is what he was saying. Dedication and hard work are infinitely more important attributes than being genuinely intelligent (which I think very few people are anyway), for both getting into medical school and for succeeding once you're there.
Was really just the way that he put it. He has edited it several times since it was first put up, but the original post is still quoted in some posts. In terms of the course, yeh, studying it isn't as bad as most make it out to be. It's arguably easier than many other courses. Getting in's the tough part though, but if you stay dedicated to the path - even if this means having to take on medicine at a graduate level (where there's more spots available and hence less competition) - then you're quite likely to get in eventually. Victoria's just a bit difficult at the moment given that there's only one undergraduate course.
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I am aware, I'm just emphasizing that people shouldn't really jump on the bandwagon because they dislike the way a post is phrased. What he said is still fundamentally correct.
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What I think makes a 99+ ATAR student: "hard working, intelligent, resilient and stoical".
You really just need that abnormally driven mindsets, where you only want to score 100% and you neglect any negative comments towards you.
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That's exactly what I am trying to say Russ. There seems to be a built up stereotype in AN and in general that studying med requires you to be a genius and extremely smart. This is not true. You just need some hard work and dedication which can go a long way.
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Was really just the way that he put it. He has edited it several times since it was first put up, but the original post is still quoted in some posts. In terms of the course, yeh, studying it isn't as bad as most make it out to be. It's arguably easier than many other courses. Getting in's the tough part though, but if you stay dedicated to the path - even if this means having to take on medicine at a graduate level (where there's more spots available and hence less competition) - then you're quite likely to get in eventually. Victoria's just a bit difficult at the moment given that there's only one undergraduate course.
I disagree...but only to an extent. Medicine, hmm. Conceptually, it isn't that difficult. It isn't that difficult to get, say, a 70 average in Medicine. It's significantly harder, however, to get an 80 average. No one gets a 90 average. The difficulty is in the volume of content that you have to simply memorise, and the randomness of the exams.
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My experience!
I like to think that medicine is a course where intelligence is secondary to desire. I think my story sort of validates this notion. I like to think that I did reasonably well at school and academics in general. I fell into medicine, and in my first year realised I had quite little desire to actually go through with it. As a result my exam results were less than desireable, but something clicked over the holidays and made me re-evaluate and realise that medicine was something I actually did want to pursue. Im fighting an uphill battle at the moment, trying to get my habits in order, but am getting there. As thushan said, medicine is so much more about hard work, commitment etc than it is conceptually hard.
What really annoys me is the pedestal that other medicine kids seem to place themselves on in comparison to other degrees. They have some sort of superiority complex which I think is partly due to the isolation the med faculty has from the rest of the uni, and also the fact that a lot of the med cohort are quite naive, immature and sheltered. Med is their life. Medicine is not harder in any other degree to succeed in, yes, entrance might be slightly more difficult, but as has been previously said, its simply an indication of the passion required to enter the course.
xoxo
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Medicine is not harder in any other degree to succeed in, yes, entrance might be slightly more difficult, but as has been previously said, its simply an indication of the passion required to enter the course.
This seems demonstrably false?
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What do you mean?
Im ultimately saying that to do well in any field you need the same sorts of things, and medicine is no different. Theres nothing magical about med that makes it harder to succeed in than any other field. But thats my two cents. When I say it is no harder than any other degree, im saying once you're in. Ive already asserted that getting in is harder, im not talking about that.
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What I think makes a 99+ ATAR student: "hard working, intelligent, resilient and stoical".
You really just need that abnormally driven mindsets, where you only want to score 100% and you neglect any negative comments towards you.
Haha, almost. I'm one of those people who gets easily down and discouraged by negative comments.
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You really just need that abnormally driven mindsets, where you only want to score 100% and you neglect any negative comments towards you.
I think it's important to take on board criticisms, especially if it's constructive.
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I think it's important to take on board criticisms, especially if it's constructive.
He means degrading comments rather than constructive criticism.
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He means degrading comments rather than constructive criticism.
Even still, I think it's important to find out why said person has a problem with you. You could unintentionally be doing something douchey etc. If it's their problem, then sure, go ahead and ignore them.
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I disagree...but only to an extent. Medicine, hmm. Conceptually, it isn't that difficult. It isn't that difficult to get, say, a 70 average in Medicine. It's significantly harder, however, to get an 80 average. No one gets a 90 average. The difficulty is in the volume of content that you have to simply memorise, and the randomness of the exams.
This would thus suggest that medicine favors hard work and an aptitude at memorization over raw brainpower to tackle conceptually difficult material and perform abstract analysis. In addition, many here would argue that much of success in VCE stems from hard work. As the OP was asking whether you need to be a genius to do medicine, I think it can be said that you don't need to be a genius by any means, but you need to be intelligent and to have a strong work ethic.
Of course, entry into medicine also relies on the UMAT and the interview, but I wouldn't assume that you need to be a genius in the traditional sense to do well at those.
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The topic is hardly derailed, but backseat moderating most definitely will derail it -.-
What do you mean?
Im ultimately saying that to do well in any field you need the same sorts of things, and medicine is no different. Theres nothing magical about med that makes it harder to succeed in than any other field. But thats my two cents. When I say it is no harder than any other degree, im saying once you're in. Ive already asserted that getting in is harder, im not talking about that.
I think that the requirements for success (granted it depends on how you define success) in the medical field are higher or more significant than the requirements in many other fields. The characteristics you need are the same (hard work, commitment, communication skills etc.) are the same, but the bar you need to reach is higher.
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The topic is hardly derailed, but backseat moderating most definitely will derail it -.-
I think that the requirements for success (granted it depends on how you define success) in the medical field are higher or more significant than the requirements in many other fields. The characteristics you need are the same (hard work, commitment, communication skills etc.) are the same, but the bar you need to reach is higher.
What makes you say that?
I have friends in second and third year commerce busting a nut to get an internship at Goldman sachs and other IB firms where competition of very much equal to medicine, and I'd challenge you to confront some of them and say its not and medicine somehow is more challenging. Equally there are law graduates suffering the same plight.
I do agree with you to some extent, that it along with the fields I have mentioned and others, require more than some other fields. However I don't like the idea of putting medicine on a pedestal and in effect undermining the very real hard work and competitiveness others may face.
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I have friends in second and third year commerce busting a nut to get an internship at Goldman sachs and other IB firms where competition of very much equal to medicine, and I'd challenge you to confront some of them and say its not and medicine somehow is more challenging. Equally there are law graduates suffering the same plight.
I do agree with you to some extent, that it along with the fields I have mentioned and others, require more than some other fields. However I don't like the idea of putting medicine on a pedestal and in effect undermining the very real hard work and competitiveness others may face.
Theres nothing magical about med that makes it harder to succeed in than any other field. But thats my two cents. When I say it is no harder than any other degree, im saying once you're in.
These are very different things you're saying. You originally said that there is nothing harder about success in medicine than in any other field, which I think is absolutely not correct when you consider the unique requirements and demands on doctors, as well as the volume of work required. I do not think that it is more difficult than any other profession as a blanket statement and I never said that, so I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I also don't think I have ever put medicine on a pedestal and slighted the hard work of others. Recognizing that it is a difficult career and is more so than other options I could have chosen is not dismissing those choices as worthless or elevating medicine to some higher level. I do completely agree that there are other professions that have significant challenges the equal (and outstripping) what doctors face.
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This is the attitude of the moderators of this forum that makes it a victim of highly negative atmosphere.
If backseat moderating such as that which i am accused of doing (clearly trying to calm down a situation), then i think the forum,
needs much more of me. >:(
If you have a problem with the moderators, I would appreciate it if you could raise it privately with me via personal message or email, instead of derailing a thread further. Cheers.
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These are very different things you're saying. You originally said that there is nothing harder about success in medicine than in any other field, which I think is absolutely not correct when you consider the unique requirements and demands on doctors, as well as the volume of work required. I do not think that it is more difficult than any other profession as a blanket statement and I never said that, so I'd appreciate you not putting words in my mouth. I also don't think I have ever put medicine on a pedestal and slighted the hard work of others. Recognizing that it is a difficult career and is more so than other options I could have chosen is not dismissing those choices as worthless or elevating medicine to some higher level. I do completely agree that there are other professions that have significant challenges the equal (and outstripping) what doctors face.
I think you might be misunderstanding what I am saying, or I'm not communicating myself effectively, probably the latter.
Of course I am not under the falsehood that each career is the same in terms of requirements, as you rightly pointed out. Each and every profession has its own nuances.
what I am referring to when I say there is nothing magical about success, is of the basics of sucess anywhere! Things like hardwork, sacrifice, passion, dedication etc. These are things requireed for success everywhere! So yes, I agree with you, there are some special skill sets, exclusive to some careers, but Im talking about more general principles of success anywhere. To be the best in any field there are a few key things that you need regardless of where you apply them.
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If you have a problem with the moderators, I would appreciate it if you could raise it privately with me via personal message or email, instead of derailing a thread further. Cheers.
Not that I agree with what they've said or how they've said it, but wouldn't it be better to practise what you preach?
Med's hard, no doubt, but part of the selection process is ensuring that people who are chosen for med won't find it untenable. That's part of the reason the process is so rigorous! The demand for it as well of course, and a need for selecting the best people to be doctors. :)
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What makes you say that?
I have friends in second and third year commerce busting a nut to get an internship at Goldman sachs and other IB firms where competition of very much equal to medicine, and I'd challenge you to confront some of them and say its not and medicine somehow is more challenging. Equally there are law graduates suffering the same plight.
I do agree with you to some extent, that it along with the fields I have mentioned and others, require more than some other fields. However I don't like the idea of putting medicine on a pedestal and in effect undermining the very real hard work and competitiveness others may face.
In some ways, medicine is not as competitive as other industries. Once you get the degree, you're basically guaranteed a well paying job. The competition for getting into the degree is high, but as others have said, if you're willing to go interstate or to study graduate medicine, it's much less competitive.
In addition, I'd argue that jobs at places like Goldman Sachs IB are far more competitive than medicine. It's easier to get into Commerce or Science in comparison to medicine, but the top jobs are much harder to obtain. Places like Goldman have about a 1% offer rate, despite the quality of the cohort applying.
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I think you might be misunderstanding what I am saying, or I'm not communicating myself effectively, probably the latter.
Of course I am not under the falsehood that each career is the same in terms of requirements, as you rightly pointed out. Each and every profession has its own nuances.
what I am referring to when I say there is nothing magical about success, is of the basics of sucess anywhere! Things like hardwork, sacrifice, passion, dedication etc. These are things requireed for success everywhere! So yes, I agree with you, there are some special skill sets, exclusive to some careers, but Im talking about more general principles of success anywhere. To be the best in any field there are a few key things that you need regardless of where you apply them.
Ah right. Yes, I agree, success in medicine rests on the same pillars as other fields.
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I'm probably in the same boat here. At my school, telling someone you want to get a 50 in a subject literally seems impossible. I have no idea why - but I'm out to prove a few people wrong. Thankfully, I've been doing really well in both my year 11 and 12 subjects and I want to be a doctor and get into Med. I really do believe that its mind over matter - don't let what people think of you or what the expectation is put you down. My school gets great results, but very rarely a student hits the 45+ in a subject like Biology, Chemistry or Physics for instance. But just because that hasn't happened, doesn't mean you can't make it happen.
Believe in yourself - because remember that those that tell you that you can't, and those who say that you wont, are those whom are petrified that you will!
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I'm probably in the same boat here. At my school, telling someone you want to get a 50 in a subject literally seems impossible. I have no idea why - but I'm out to prove a few people wrong. Thankfully, I've been doing really well in both my year 11 and 12 subjects and I want to be a doctor and get into Med. I really do believe that its mind over matter - don't let what people think of you or what the expectation is put you down. My school gets great results, but very rarely a student hits the 45+ in a subject like Biology, Chemistry or Physics for instance. But just because that hasn't happened, doesn't mean you can't make it happen.
Believe in yourself - because remember that those that tell you that you can't, and those who say that you wont, are those whom are petrified that you will!
Absolutely right! Our school hadn't had people get scores over 98 in almost a decade, but last year, two of us thought "stuff it" and did it anyway...though our dux did do quite a better job of it ;)!