ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: brenden on October 07, 2013, 06:53:16 pm
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Crazy stuff! http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/burnout-hits-one-in-four-teachers-20131005-2v13y.html
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Certainly holds some implications for people who say teachers shouldn't have their pay raised due to the easiness of their job, or the relaxed nature of their job.
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I'm not surprised, teachers deal with a heck of a lot of misbehaviour and general rudeness from some students (normally a very vocal minority in my experience). I highly doubt anyone that considers teaching to be an easy job has ever stepped foot in a classroom within some decades.
Perhaps the perceptions in some people that teaching is an "easy job" leads to this burnout? I.e. People choose a career in teaching thinking it would be relatively easy and allow them to live while also getting holidays fairly often, but after beginning the job quickly realise it is quite different to what they perceived and they are completely unprepared (this however could be said for a number of professions).
Perhaps a solution would be to allow more supervised training in the classroom of new graduates with experienced teachers to better assist in the integration from university to the school classroom as a teacher (as well as more practical training within university to prepare for real life classroom situations [although I don't know how much a teaching course covers this aspect]).
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Certainly holds some implications for people who say teachers shouldn't have their pay raised due to the easiness of their job, or the relaxed nature of their job.
I would make a distinction here: to be a good teacher, yes, its crazily hard. You need a lot of passion and it's a very difficult task.
But to be a terrible teacher isn't demanding at all. Also, because so many schools are government institutions, you can't fire a teacher for being 'bad' at their job (I think - I might be wrong here). So I think that's a fairly big problem
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Yeah actually, fair distinction there, Abe.
It's true, you can't fire someone for being a shit truck. My VP/VCE Coordinator (maddest guy, so much respect) was telling me how strict he is with hiring because its difficult to get rid of shit people.
I think not only misbehaving students - but students with shit on their plate. I mean, some of the people I used to go to school with have some shit on their plate that some people wouldn't imagine in a million years. And I know se of these students go to their favourite teacher to talk (I would). And I mean, people tell me a lot of stuff and sometimes it can be a bit "woah" (not often)... Imagine having a duty of care and having potentially like 50 kids a year anywhere from year 7-12 coming to you and telling you all this messed up shit. It would be hard emotionally, especially for people that aren't natural at dealing with tough situations.
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Imagine having a duty of care and having potentially like 50 kids a year anywhere from year 7-12 coming to you and telling you all this messed up shit. It would be hard emotionally, especially for people that aren't natural at dealing with tough situations.
Yeah, I reckon that goes sooooooooooo unnoticed and unrewarded
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Teaching is really quite a thankless job. It's the kind of job where you need a thick skin. I have a lot of stern words to people who think teachers shouldn't get a pay raise. If you teach in a low SES area it's as much about attendance, motivation and classroom management, if not more, than it is about you know, actual teaching.
Whenever I hear the saying 'those that can't do, teach', I really just want to laugh. It''s easy to be a crappy teacher, but being a good one (and surely that is what you strive for if you enter teaching) is another story entirely.
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I'm honestly not surprised by the article. For two reasons..
1. The ATARs (or a little earlier ENTER scores) to get into some teaching courses is waaaayyyy too low. I guess that fits with the saying mentioned earlier of "those who can't do, teach". So it's easy to be a crap teacher and not burnout because you don't give a stuff about your students because unfortunately, there are some people who become teachers purely because they can get into it, which I think is crazy. There are some girls in my year level aiming for primary teaching at the end of next year and I know they'd be terrible teachers. If I were a parent and they were going to be teaching my kid, I wouldn't be impressed.
2. There is so much behind the scenes work that goes unnoticed. All the meetings, emails, phone calls, work over the term break, planning outside of class, attendance at school events like speech nights and information nights. No wonder teachers are burning out.
3. I honestly think that teaching in a low SES school would be incredibly frustrating as some, NOT ALL, kids wouldn't even care about the work. I recently got back from a school trip to central Australia and I saw this first hand. The teachers (well the good ones), care so much about the kids, and the kids just show them barely any respect at all. Also, I asked one of the teachers from my school who came away with us on the trip which school she has liked teaching at the most, and she said mine. I'm not trying to sound like a snob, but I think being in a higher SES area the students may be more motivated, which would in turn make the teachers more motivated to do their job well. That's not to say there are some terrible teachers in private schools, or schools in higher SES areas.
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Actually- I withdraw my support of the 'hard to be good easy to be bad' sentiment. The article said 25% of new teachers are suffering. Honestly, think most people becoming a teacher would at lest have aims of being minimally decent or making a difference. The people I spoke to in my brief time in the BEd were all "yeah let's help kids". I mean - this offers an explanation of why teachers might be shit; they're depressed/anxious/disillusioned. Doing nothing is easy, sure... But doing nothing because you wanted to do something and now have PTSD-like symptoms, well - the cause of doing nothing makes things hard.
I think that addresses point one of the above post.
Point 3: try caring about the work when your teacher makes fun of you for bein wrong and is sarcastic with you. It's all some kids can do to keep themselves from crying in class let alone be a wonderfully sunny student who works hard and motivates teachers. It's a bit of a vicious circle I guess.
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Damn I've always been against this. Where can I start?
1. Highschool teachers get at least $70,000/yr and that's continually rising. That's approximately the same as or more than the average salary for an Australian worker. They also get a total of 12 weeks paid break (6+2+2+2 weeks) and have the ability to just ditch work mid-term and go on a holiday (two of my year 12 teachers left our classes in term 3 so they could go holidaying). Not to forget that they also have 'spare periods' where they can plan classes or take time off.
2. walkec is correct, teaching has become that "backup job". My business teacher always ALWAYS says "I wish I worked as a human resource manager, trust me guys do it, you get heaps of money" then complains about teaching because she couldn't find a job. I read something about someone believing that teachers should require at least a few years of work experience in their field to teach their subject.
3. None of my teachers really put in effort. Ik, cliche to say from a student, but it's true. My teachers are lazy as shit. My I.T teacher rocks up to class late always, can't teach for crap, did little to no theory all year. My business teacher is HORRIBLE, we spend all of our time in class chatting (i don't partake) and she gives out answers to the SACs to "boost our marks" (she's oblivious to the fact that SACs are scaled in accordance to exam scores). My maths teacher shouldn't even be allowed to teach. My P.E teacher doesn't even mark with set criteria, can't add up my SAC scores properly and has twice miscalculated my unit scores. My English teacher has the mental capacity of a toddler, she can't deal with the stress and its inevitable.
Teachers who aren't emotionally stable SHOULD NOT be teaching, or they should go teach mature aged adults.
Besides that, I can rationally agree that I too feel for the teachers who put in effort but have to put up with nasty kids. Reminds me of a few of my teachers in the past.
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1. Highschool teachers get at least $70,000/yr and that's continually rising. That's approximately the same as or more than the average salary for an Australian worker. They also get a total of 12 weeks paid break (6+2+2+2 weeks) and have the ability to just ditch work mid-term and go on a holiday (two of my year 12 teachers left our classes in term 3 so they could go holidaying). Not to forget that they also have 'spare periods' where they can plan classes or take time off.
What, really? I thought it was lower than that. Where did you find that out?
So it's easy to be a crap teacher and not burnout because you don't give a stuff about your students because unfortunately, there are some people who become teachers purely because they can get into it, which I think is crazy.
2. walkec is correct, teaching has become that "backup job". My business teacher always ALWAYS says "I wish I worked as a human resource manager, trust me guys do it, you get heaps of money" then complains about teaching because she couldn't find a job. I read something about someone believing that teachers should require at least a few years of work experience in their field to teach their subject.
Coming into my third year, this is true to an extent. There is no demand in the market for the thousands of potential scientists graduating every year, people are looking into other options. I know a lot of people looking into teaching because they want a bailout. Not that they'll necessarily be bad teachers nor should we really judge them on their motives long as they are good at their job but it just illustrates how its a backup more than a career for a few people out there.
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http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf
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What, really? I thought it was lower than that. Where did you find that out?
Probably before tax http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf
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Damn I've always been against this. Where can I start?
1. Highschool teachers get at least $70,000/yr and that's continually rising
http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf
So, ah, why are you ignoring all the numbers below 70,000 in that file?
(also taking leave is not just spontaneously deciding to go away on holiday, it has to be applied for and approved)
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My reply was about highschool teachers.
Teachers have a commitment which is to teach/mentor a class. I don't think they should be leaving randomly during the year. Sets a bad example for kids too by failing to attend their class.
Range 2 is highschool. Range 1 is primary I am pretty sure. In just a couple of years it'll be about $70,000 anyway and for highschool teachers around $85000. Either way, the pay is still around the average for Australian workers.
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Range 1/2 doesn't refer to primary/secondary, it refers to the teacher's employment conditions and job expectations. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.
All workers have a commitment to their job, but that doesn't mean they can't take their long service leave. And they don't leave randomly, it's all been organized in advance. It's obviously suboptimal to get a different teacher for a term but it's hardly a bad example for kids on a systemic level.
Range 2 classroom teachers play a significant role in assisting the school to improve student performance and educational outcomes determined by the school strategic plan and statewide priorities and contributing to the development and implementation of school policies and priorities. A critical component of this work will focus on increasing the knowledge base of staff within their school about student learning and high quality instruction to assist their school to define quality teacher practice.
The primary focus of the range 1 classroom teacher is on further developing skills and competencies needed to become an effective classroom practitioner with structured support and guidance from teachers at higher levels and the planning, preparation and teaching of programs to achieve specific student outcomes. Range 1 classroom teachers teach a range of students/classes and are accountable for the effective delivery of their programs. They may also assist and participate in policy development, project teams and the organisation of co-curricula activities.
http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/careers/Pages/career_structure_ts.aspx
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Organised in advance, although it is a bit random for a teacher to leave. You cant just leave your students and go on a holiday, especially VCE teachers. I don't see how it's not a bad example.
For the ranges, would you agree secondary teachers would be placed in the 2nd range due to their responsibilities and job expectations? I'm assuming there is a strong correlation between pay and teaching level.
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How do you know they're just going on holiday and don't have other significant reasons for going on leave?
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http://www.education.vic.gov.au/hrweb/Documents/Salary-Teacher.pdf
It makes no statements of a career progression of sorts. I mean if the salary of a teacher at his/her peak of earnings power is $70k, it's okay but nothing to call home about -- kids that work in certain corporate jobs report getting that pretty early on.
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ninwa, from all the business lessons I've spent hearing my teacher brag I've come to a definite conclusion that there were no commitments. Then again, this is only my teacher so I'm not going to definitely claim that all teachers are like this, although I am going to assume that all teachers who plan far in advance don't have an urgent reason to travel overseas.
I'm all FOR if a teacher has a legitimate reason to vanish overseas e.g family problems, sick family members, crisis situations, but not for the sake of just leaving for enjoyment. Teachers have 12 weeks holidays to go and do that. If its not summer in their desired destination, bad luck, commitments and sacrifices. My sister is a manager and she can't take time off during the summer - commitment to duties.
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How do you know they're just going on holiday and don't have other significant reasons for going on leave?
The business teacher at my school left his year 12 class for 5 weeks in term 3 (giving them a teacher who had never taught business in her life) for the purpose of going to his sister wedding (and then having a holiday). They only just finished the coursework about a week ago due to it
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My point is your anecdotes have little to no relevance without actual research into why teachers go on leave. I could go on about all the people I went to school with who are now teachers (I personally know at least 5) and who work their butts off, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion.
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My point is your anecdotes have little to no relevance without actual research into why teachers go on leave. I could go on about all the people I went to school with who are now teachers (I personally know at least 5) and who work their butts off, but it doesn't add anything to the discussion.
I find it hard to believe that you read my post and missed the logic. Agree with simba, we were behind in coursework so badly that we did outcome 2 in less than a week, which is a big outcome (40 marks) and various chapters. We didn't even do coursework, our teacher just let us take in notes and prepared answers.
How could I possibly find research on why teachers leave? 12 weeks of holidays is more than enough time to take a break. Some teachers really need to learn how to respect their students.
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For a position that requires a bachelor's, the pay for teachers is pretty much average - probably even a fair bit lower than that.
Anecdotal evidence is invalid. There's no reason to entertain it in this debate. Sorry Lala/simba. I know many teachers who work their asses off. The fact there are some rotten apples shouldn't mean that all of them should be punished - quite the opposite, it should mean the pay is ought to be increased, to attract brighter people. I know that increasing pay alone won't solve the problem, but it's one of the many steps that need to be taken.
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I find it hard to believe that you read my post and missed the logic. Agree with simba, we were behind in coursework so badly that we did outcome 2 in less than a week, which is a big outcome (40 marks) and various chapters. We didn't even do coursework, our teacher just let us take in notes and prepared answers.
How could I possibly find research on why teachers leave? 12 weeks of holidays is more than enough time to take a break. Some teachers really need to learn how to respect their students.
Having no better "evidence" than your own anecdotes is a terrible reason to suggest that all teachers should have their pay docked.
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Having no better "evidence" than your own anecdotes is a terrible reason to suggest that all teachers should have their pay docked.
I'm saying they have enough time during their 12 weeks PAID holidays to go on their holidays. I don't know of many other professions where you get 12 weeks paid break.
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I don't know about your teachers but mine work over much of the breaks - term breaks, certainly. And they're forced to take their annual leave over the summer break. So it's not very different at the end of the day from your normal employment standards, especially keeping in mind that they're public sector.
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I wasn't saying as a generalisation all teachers are horrible and take time off because they feel like it, I was just trying to show there are two sides to the story (although the majority of teachers are dedicated and wouldn't abuse their leave)
I realise my response was quite ambiguous though because I didn't mention this in the last post, and yes, I have no way of proving what I said was true. But by no means I believe their pay should be cut