Public transport passengers without a valid ticket may soon pay an on the spot penalty fare with legislation to enable the collection of the fare to be introduced into Parliament on 30 October 2013.
Public Transport Victoria (PTV) has begun discussions with operators to introduce the initiative in early 2014.
The introduction of on the spot penalty fare is expected to have a number of benefits for operators and public transport passengers:
Penalty fares can be issued quickly, meaning Authorised Officers are more visible on the network, checking more tickets and penalising more fare evaders Passengers won’t be required to provide their name and address to the Authorised Officer if they pay on the spot Payment is received upfront and in-full The on the spot penalty fare will be $75, while the current $212 fine will remain in place for certain offences and situations.
Where passengers cannot, or choose not to pay the on the spot penalty fare, the existing infringement process and higher fine applies.
On the spot penalty fares will only be offered for certain offences and will not be offered to people under 18, who will continue to face the existing fine of $72.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: brenden on January 29, 2014, 11:54:25 am
Seems pretty fucked that rich people can pay less.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: scribble on January 29, 2014, 11:58:09 am
who even carries $75 dollars on them on a regular basis?! ==
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: meganrobyn on January 29, 2014, 01:06:46 pm
Seems pretty fucked that rich people can pay less.
Brenden, please meet the current global socioeconomic system. Current global socioeconomic system, please meet Brenden :)
Let the fight to the death begin?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Einstein on January 29, 2014, 03:48:03 pm
I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that you pay $75 on the spot, or if you regect/dont have money, they will send a infringement notice in the mail for $212.
So you either have the money on you and pay upfront or let them process and letter to you etc which is $212.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: alondouek on January 29, 2014, 03:56:43 pm
Law people: Would a larger fine arising from not being able to pay the $75 be legally contestable based on disequity?
There's no inherent discrimination in the changed system
If by this you mean that the system itself is not designed to be discriminatory, then fine, that's probably true. Despite this, I doubt that there is equity in the ability to pay upfront fines between people of different socioeconomic status; in my mind the likelihood of a wealthier person carrying a sufficient amount of cash to pay an upfront fine is greater than the likelihood of a less wealth person doing so, and I think that's logical. I also think it's logical to consider that the individual financial impact of a fine would be greater for a person who is less wealthy, due to assumed lower average capacity to pay the cheaper upfront fine.
I see this system, while not 'rewarding' people who can pay the upfront fine, as being more punishing to those who may not be able to pay immediately, regardless of their personal situation. This doesn't sit well with me.
I've never been issued a fine by the public transport association so I don't know what the previous system was; however, if I were able to make a recommendation it would be to change the stipulation that states that "Where passengers cannot, or choose not to pay the on the spot penalty fare, the existing infringement process and higher fine applies." to be limited to those who choose not to pay, thereby allowing those who may not carry such large amounts cash either for personal or socioeconomic reasons to pay the lower fine.
I'm sure that this change in rules is supposed to act as a deterrent just as much as a punitive measure, but I don't think it's fair in its formulation.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: spectroscopy on January 29, 2014, 05:40:50 pm
if you walk around with $75 you can probably afford to keep your myki topped up
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: thushan on January 29, 2014, 06:52:57 pm
Is it possible to pay the fine by net transfer to their bank account through a mobile bank app?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: alondouek on January 29, 2014, 06:54:35 pm
Is it possible to pay the fine by net transfer to their bank account through a mobile bank app?
I'd imagine so, it is pretty much a cash transaction and there doesn't seem to be anything to the contrary in the changes listed. Can you do this under the current system?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: achre on January 29, 2014, 07:07:23 pm
I'm pretty sure i read somewhere that you pay $75 on the spot, or if you regect/dont have money, they will send a infringement notice in the mail for $212.
So you either have the money on you and pay upfront or let them process and letter to you etc which is $212.
I've never copped a transport fine before, so I'll ask a stupid question - what happens if you don't give them your personal details? What if you just ignore them, get off at the next stop and leg it? Do they have the legal power to pursue or detain you?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Professor Polonsky on January 29, 2014, 07:59:00 pm
I've never copped a transport fine before, so I'll ask a stupid question - what happens if you don't give them your personal details? What if you just ignore them, get off at the next stop and leg it? Do they have the legal power to pursue or detain you?
Yes, AOs do have the power to detain you. Interestingly, that power isn't much more expansive than that of any person to arrest another.
Law people: Would a larger fine arising from not being able to pay the $75 be legally contestable based on disequity?
No. The courts don't have the power in Victoria to invalidate laws simply because their application might not be equal across socioeconomic lines.
The on-the-spot fines serve a perfectly legitimate state interest. The infringement process is expensive to the State, and thus avoiding it saves money. Providing an incentive for people to pay upfront makes sense, then.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Tasmania Jones on January 29, 2014, 08:00:22 pm
Quote
If an Authorised Officer believes an offence has occurred, they can:
ask for your name and address ask to see evidence which confirms your identity arrest you until your name and address is verified by evidence arrest you until the police arrive if you refuse to comply confiscate tickets for use as evidence if necessary.
If by this you mean that the system itself is not designed to be discriminatory, then fine, that's probably true. Despite this, I doubt that there is equity in the ability to pay upfront fines between people of different socioeconomic status; in my mind the likelihood of a wealthier person carrying a sufficient amount of cash to pay an upfront fine is greater than the likelihood of a less wealth person doing so, and I think that's logical. I also think it's logical to consider that the individual financial impact of a fine would be greater for a person who is less wealthy, due to assumed lower average capacity to pay the cheaper upfront fine.
It's not just that, if you're on something like newstart or youthallowance, $75 (whilst cheaper than $2xx) is a double digit percentage of your income for that fortnight if not longer.
Personally i think the current $220 (or whatever) fee is simply ridiculous. It's way higher than it needs to be, some speeding tickets and other offenses are lower than this. It's a huge chunk of money. If you take the good faith view, many that fair evade do it out of necessity or just pure mistake (you might forget to touch on, forget how much is on your myki, not have change, no time to top up, etc).
I guess i'd rather take the option for some to pay $70 and others for $220 over everyone paying $220 anyway. It's not like the system is getting worse really, the fine isn't rising above what it is before, it just isn't getting better for everyone.
I personally think the time taken to process cash transactions will take not significantly less than the current way (out of the officers time). It'll probably mean less burden on the courts/government agencies chasing up money/dealing with appeals though.
Is running from them a crime though? Like an additional crime? I think its a crime to run from the police (only after they put you under arrest though? i don't know) but i'm not so sure about these guys. If thats the case everyone might as well take their shot outrunning them if they chose to do so. I ask this more out of interest though, because i'm a good citizen of course.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Professor Polonsky on February 08, 2014, 12:21:19 am
Came across this today. (It's basically Monash's fault.)
(http://i.imgur.com/emNobCB.png)
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: scribble on February 08, 2014, 12:28:09 am
inb4 #monashmasterrace
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: LOLs99 on February 08, 2014, 12:38:06 am
"valid ticket " also applies to holding a myki concession and concession card at the same time?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Stick on February 08, 2014, 10:06:32 am
Yes, absolutely.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: LOLs99 on February 08, 2014, 03:35:26 pm
Don't do that - if you get caught that's $212 slapped on you. It's happened to me before, it wasn't pretty.
Did u get caught on the bus? It usually doesn't happen for buses though. Yeah I will just carry my concession card everywhere then or else 2 minutes noodles for the rest of the month ;D
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Professor Polonsky on April 07, 2014, 11:08:10 pm
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: slothpomba on April 08, 2014, 02:35:05 pm
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Ballerina on April 09, 2014, 07:07:48 am
Ahahaha they want guns? Didn't they receive the message when they all failed the Victoria Police entrance examination? "Ms Grigorovitch said ticket inspectors doled out as many as 10 fines a day to fare evaders."
Wow. That's a very low figure. I guess it would be higher if they actually did their job. It's a little delusional that ticket inspectors believe anyone thinks ticket inspectors have money...or a savings account...or own property/assets.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Professor Polonsky on April 11, 2014, 12:50:05 am
It's fair enough that they don't want to carry shitloads of money around. The guns thing is just grandstanding by the union, probably. (And quite a creative step at that.) My experience with them has always been positive - sure, there are some bad nuts that get on the news, but otherwise they just operate according to instructions given to them. It's unfortunate that they're told to go after students without concession cards, and I definitely know that it's really fucking annoying, but I don't think it's their fault.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: JellyDonut on April 20, 2014, 09:43:39 pm
shifting of enforcement costs, though it'd probably be cheaper than chasing up dropkicks anyway
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: nerdmmb on April 20, 2014, 09:56:41 pm
I'm curious to know how they'll deal with people who have a myki but haven't touched it on?
Like do they have a portable device that checks this?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: JellyDonut on April 20, 2014, 10:04:05 pm
that counts as fare evading. if it wasn't the case, i would never touch on
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: nerdmmb on April 20, 2014, 10:06:39 pm
They carry around small devices/machines and they scan every single Myki.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Ballerina on April 21, 2014, 08:07:58 am
They're meant to stop all ticket evaders they observe, they simply choose to preferentially target young students because they don't desire a fair fight
they want to be butttsss
biggg sagggyyy butttsss
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Limista on April 21, 2014, 09:02:35 am
They're meant to stop all ticket evaders they observe, they simply choose to preferentially target young students because they don't desire a fair fight
they want to be butttsss
biggg sagggyyy butttsss
actually I think they target us because they assume we are more likely to take risks? So, they're biased.
Either way, I've observed the same thing and it's definitely not fair. But that's life I guess.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Ballerina on April 21, 2014, 09:21:15 am
They ignore physically imposing gentlemen and gentlemen who are less well groomed ergo appear to have less to lose if they start a fight, who are both equally likely to take risks, because ticket inspectors have pancake butts with a cottage cheese texture
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: JellyDonut on April 21, 2014, 11:10:46 am
considering the other option is to arm already poorly trained ticket inspectors, i'm okay with them targeting you. soz m8
it's an all round terrible idea though
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Ballerina on April 21, 2014, 08:33:03 pm
Actually, the other option is for them to do their job or not at all
I would say that seeing as they travel in groups, they should be able to tackle an average sized male, but I suppose that would involve surpassing the upper body strength of a potato
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: chasej on April 21, 2014, 10:25:39 pm
Actually, the other option is for them to do their job or not at all
I would say that seeing as they travel in groups, they should be able to tackle an average sized male, but I suppose that would involve surpassing the upper body strength of a potato
Thing is, it doesn't matter to the ticket inspectors who they fine, as long as they fine enough to justify their jobs. They can probably churn out more fines dealing with the 'easier" to deal with people, than the "harder" to deal with people. Hence that's what they do.
I would argue they should just make public transport completely free to avoid this problem and based on the fact the entire public transport system is already entirely reliant on public funding for building, it shouldn't effect efficiency that much, after all the current companies in charge of the system don't do such an efficient job anyway. I think many people would be happy to pay a little more tax to cover free transport, or to cancel completely ridiculous state projects to cover it (e.g. proposed airport rail link in its current plan).
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Professor Polonsky on April 22, 2014, 08:20:21 am
Have to say that incentivising Metro according to its performance actually seems to have worked. It gets a lot of shit, but it's actually doing alright given what it's got. It's mostly infrastructure that's the issue.
Of course I'd prefer a fully public system but that's about as likely to occur as Australia sending people to the moon
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Ballerina on April 22, 2014, 03:09:46 pm
I know full well why they do what they do, thank you.
I'm checked an average of 5 times a day as I travel in peak hour and live next door to Swinburne, then take the tram which heads to RMIT/UoM. They haven't made money off me yet, but they likely could from the men who hop the gates next to mine on a regular basis and while observing them, will turn to me to ask for my concession card. I guess pressing their crotch near his face wouldn't be as fun as pressing it near a 15 year old girl's face while sitting on her http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/online-petition-blasts-ticket-inspectors-violence-20140306-34ab9.html (I'm too lazy to find the rest, but he sits with his crotch wriggling against her chest for about 10 minutes, and two others decide to sit atop her as well while he's there). Or as fun as intimidating the shy international students from Swinburne who don't know what is being asked from them, and then after discovering with disappointment they are carrying their concession/student card remarking, "I'm surprised the government would pay for someone like you to have one." Or as easy as yanking my friend's arm so hard and rapidly when escorting her off the tram for evading for two stops, that when she tried to descend from the steps she twisted her ankle and couldn't walk without a limp for weeks. This is obviously only representative of a portion of ticket inspectors, but it's enough for the topic of undue force, improper training and a general misunderstanding of risk assessment among inspectors to continually arise in media and in politics. It's enough for me to decide that targeting one demographic to demand a triple digit fine they can't afford, over another demographic, is a shitty and discriminatory thing to do. Especially when you should complete your job the way the job description listed it as when you applied, instead of allowing your testicles retract into your groins.
I've worked for jobs that paid $10 an hour (ahahaha) and performed fantastically without taking cowardly shortcuts or working on commission, because I have work ethic instead of self-indulgence. I don't think ticket inspectors are a huge problem, comparatively speaking! It's not a concern of mine; but they're incompetent enough for me to refer to them as having 'pancake butts with a cottage cheese texture'.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: JellyDonut on April 22, 2014, 08:45:32 pm
just from experience of people sitting on me, having one heavier person on you is much more uncomfortable than three. reason being is that a single person would require their weight to keep you pinned, whereas three people can secure your limbs, or any means of leverage, a lot better. neither is particularly pleasant but i'll take the latter. on that note, we don't actually know how much pressure was actually applied. like being pinned doesn't necessarily mean you're crushed.
in any case, i don't know why you're getting targeted so much
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: Russ on April 22, 2014, 10:01:26 pm
just from experience of people sitting on me, having one heavier person on you is much more uncomfortable than three. reason being is that a single person would require their weight to keep you pinned, whereas three people can secure your limbs, or any means of leverage, a lot better. neither is particularly pleasant but i'll take the latter. on that note, we don't actually know how much pressure was actually applied. like being pinned doesn't necessarily mean you're crushed.
What. Did you actually watch the video in that news report link? I don't have any particular interest in ticket inspectors and their actions but there's no way you can deny that some portion of them are borderline incompetent or, at the very least, are prone to making incredibly stupid decisions, which was fairly well demonstrated when that story made news earlier this year. Some of them are also totally reasonable though, like the one that didn't attempt to fine me for having a foot halfway up a seat.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: JellyDonut on April 22, 2014, 11:07:09 pm
if it was that infamous video featuring a 15 year old girl at flinders street, then yeah. at the risk of sounding like an internet warrior*, each of the inspectors had at least one leg planted to the ground at all times, so it's basically anyone's guess how much weight they were putting on.
*which i am
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: enwiabe on April 22, 2014, 11:42:00 pm
They ignore physically imposing gentlemen and gentlemen who are less well groomed ergo appear to have less to lose if they start a fight, who are both equally likely to take risks, because ticket inspectors have pancake butts with a cottage cheese texture
holy shit. is this why I have never had my ticket inspected in my life?
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: brenden on April 23, 2014, 12:07:15 am
if it was that infamous video featuring a 15 year old girl at flinders street, then yeah. at the risk of sounding like an internet warrior*, each of the inspectors had at least one leg planted to the ground at all times, so it's basically anyone's guess how much weight they were putting
I'm somewhat bemused that what is basically assault of a 15 year old is so easily dismissed as 'anyone's guess' as to whether there was a problem. I would say it's completely unjustifiable for ticket inspectors to be throwing girls to the ground, but hey, that's just me.
Title: Re: "On the spot penalty fines" paid in cash to be introduced in March 2014 on PT
Post by: JellyDonut on April 23, 2014, 09:53:26 pm