ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: Special At Specialist on February 06, 2014, 06:34:22 pm
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Recently, I've seen a lot of guys complaining about being caught "in the friendzone" with the girl they are attracted to. This means that the guy wants to have an intimate relationship with the girl, take her out on dates, kiss/cuddle her etc. but the girl doesn't want that. She wants them to "just be friends" instead.
What is your opinion on this? Does "the friendzone" exist? Is it a form of rejection? Is it wrong for a girl to put a guy in "the friendzone"? Is it wrong for a guy to want to be more than just friends? Also, what sort of guys end up in "the friendzone" and why?
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Why would you start a thread about this. IT IS NOT A THING. END OF STORY. It's like starting a debate about whether or not the tooth fairy exists. Figment. Of. Imagination. Ugh.
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It doesn't exist. Sack up ask her out and if she says no at least you have (had?) a good friend?
Why would you start a thread about this. IT IS NOT A THING. END OF STORY. It's like starting a debate about whether or not the tooth fairy exists. Figment. Of. Imagination. Ugh.
Erm do you have scientific proof of this non-existence? maybe this is the debate we should be having
I don't understand how it would be "wrong" to put anyone in the friend zone. "I'VE BEEN SUCH A GOOD FRIEND TO YOU NOW HAVE SEX WITH ME" is such a douche thought to have. It's not wrong to want to be "more than friends" but it's wrong to blame the girl when she doesn't want to be more than friends.
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Why would you start a thread about this. IT IS NOT A THING. END OF STORY. It's like starting a debate about whether or not the tooth fairy exists. Figment. Of. Imagination. Ugh.
I can empathise with your exasperation but this could be a productive debate. Perhaps the silliness isn't as visible to some as it is to others; dialogue is always productive.
I'll take this opportunity to remind people of the 'no hate speech' rule, so any sweeping gender discrimination in this thread such as "girls that won't put out are just attention seeking sluts" or "boys who complain about the friendzone are just closet rapists" will be dealt with appropriately. Keep it clean, keep it productive, people! Happy debating.
Erm do you have scientific proof of this non-existence? maybe this is the debate we should be having
Also, I'll take this opportunity to remind people that trolling is not a cool guy and does afraid of everything.
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It doesn't exist.
This is inconsistent with your comment below:
I don't understand how it would be "wrong" to put anyone in the friend zone. "I'VE BEEN SUCH A GOOD FRIEND TO YOU NOW HAVE SEX WITH ME" is such a douche thought to have. It's not wrong to want to be "more than friends" but it's wrong to blame the girl when she doesn't want to be more than friends.
I'm going to focus on this sentence below:
"I'VE BEEN SUCH A GOOD FRIEND TO YOU NOW HAVE SEX WITH ME" is such a douche thought to have.
Is this the way you think of everyone who mentions "the friendzone"? Do you automatically assume that them wanting to be in a relationship equates to wanting to treat the other person as a sex object? Would you agree that there is more to a relationship than just sex? Would you also agree that being in a relationship doesn't necessarily take your friendship away, but can actually strengthen it?
Also, one thing which no one has touched on yet: is "the friendzone" a form of rejection? Is it another way of saying "I don't like you as much as you like me"? If so, would it be reasonable for a guy to feel unappreciated and unwanted when he gets "friendzoned"?
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Is this the way you think of everyone who mentions "the friendzone"? Do you automatically assume that them wanting to be in a relationship equates to wanting to treat the other person as a sex object? Would you agree that there is more to a relationship than just sex? Would you also agree that being in a relationship doesn't necessarily take your friendship away, but can actually strengthen it?
The difference between a close friendship between a guy and a girl (ie "friend zoned") and a relationship IS sex (and other forms of intimacy).
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Also, one thing which no one has touched on yet: is "the friendzone" a form of rejection?
Uh, no.
The "friend zone" is a way that people of opposite genders are able to be friends with each other without having to be in a relationship with multiple people.
Otherwise known as, well, monogamy.
Might not be everyone's cup of tea but it's kind of the norm.
Sorry for multiple posts. Tapatalk on phone sucks for quoting.
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...SO HIT THE GYM M8
LOL Kev <3
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@hobbitle - Surely there is more of a difference between a relationship and a close friendship than just sex? What about traits like loyalty, commitment and sacrifice? It's very rare for close friends to be 100% loyal and committed to each other when it comes to things such as sharing a house, sharing children (if they were to adopt for example) and planning to spend the rest of their lives together. There are certain things like this that our society practically condemns for people that aren't "partners". Being "close friends" with someone is rarely a long term thing that you're willing to make huge sacrifices for. If your best friend were to move overseas, would you move as well? The vast majority of people would answer "no" to that unless it was convenient for them.
Whilst I'm not denying that sex is a big part of relationships, it's certainly not the only thing that makes a close friendship and a relationship distinct from each other.
These types of discussions/debates really irk me.
Special At Specialist, think of a girl (assuming you're straight) that you would never even consider touching her lips with your own. Someone who you don't feel ANY sort of physical attraction towards ("ugly" is such an ugly word).
Now give them the nicest personality in the world, e.g. You're able to confide in them, you're able to express your opinions to them freely and you can trust them. BUT you still would never, ever, EVER consider kissing them.
That is all the "friendzone" is. Someone with a personality that you're comfortable with but whom you don't feel any sort of physical attraction towards.
So now put a girl in your position and replace the "friendzoned" guy in the other position and ta-da! The classic "friendzone" example!
It's no big deal and it's certainly not wrong for someone to place another person in the "friendzone" (wtf? lol).
It's also not wrong for the guy to want to be more than friends, as if that's the case, obviously the guy's physically attracted to the girl. But usually nothing really works out if the girl isn't really into the guy.
Anyone can end up in the friendzone, it's just whether the girl's attracted to you or not.
...SO HIT THE GYM M8
This is an interesting example. I'll respond to this later.
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I don't think a friendzone exists. I don't think that, just because someone considers you a friend and doesn't want to be a relationship with you right now, means that they never would. Just as people 'fall out' of love, people can 'fall in' love at any time. Just because someone considers you a friend today, doesn't mean you'll be 'just' a friend tomorrow.
Everyone should just respect the fact that people are either attracted to someone or not attracted to someone, in a sexual way. It's not something that can be controlled.
And there is no one sort of 'guy' who would end up being friends with every girl they meet. That's ridiculous. This concept is so stupidly sexist too, because I have never seen a girl complain about being 'friendzoned'.
Just be glad to have that person as a friend and look for intimacy elsewhere. Don't bitch and moan because someone doesn't want to go out with you - attraction is never a choice. You are never entitled to sex.
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This is inconsistent with your comment below:
I'm going to focus on this sentence below:
Is this the way you think of everyone who mentions "the friendzone"? Do you automatically assume that them wanting to be in a relationship equates to wanting to treat the other person as a sex object? Would you agree that there is more to a relationship than just sex? Would you also agree that being in a relationship doesn't necessarily take your friendship away, but can actually strengthen it?
Also, one thing which no one has touched on yet: is "the friendzone" a form of rejection? Is it another way of saying "I don't like you as much as you like me"? If so, would it be reasonable for a guy to feel unappreciated and unwanted when he gets "friendzoned"?
Sorry I should have said "I don't understand how it would be "wrong" to put anyone in the friend zone, if it existed." but I thought it was pretty clear from the start of my post that I believe it is not real.
Is this the way you think of everyone who mentions "the friendzone"? Do you automatically assume that them wanting to be in a relationship equates to wanting to treat the other person as a sex object? Would you agree that there is more to a relationship than just sex? Would you also agree that being in a relationship doesn't necessarily take your friendship away, but can actually strengthen it?
Obviously that comment emulates my thoughts on women and I did in fact refer to myself as a douche I wasn't at all mimicking the stereotypical bro-fisting frat bro at all.
People who cry about the friend zone have this strange belief that the girl/guy they're being nice to owe them a romantic relationship or sex (see I even said romantic relationship this time so you don't get confused) for being nice. They think "I'm so nice they'll definitely go out with me now" and when they're told that they're only considered a friend they mope around and for some reason it's the girls fault that there is no romantic relationship because she saw the guy treating her as a friend instead of a love interest because he didn't make his intentions clear.
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I always end up being the devil's advocate and a debate turns into a lecture... I'm not taking any sides here, I'm just trying to ask heaps of questions to force people to justify their views so we can actually get a discussion going.
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I take back what I said about this thread that should never have been started. It's awesome and hilarious.
S@S -
Yes there is more than just sex to a relationship than friendship + sex.
But seriously, don't mess with me.
If a girl you were into was like, "let's be best friends, I mean absolute best friends, let's move in together and make lots of future plans and you can move with me to Spain... but we can't have sex" you wouldn't go there, right? You'd still be considered "friend zoned". And you know why you wouldn't do it? Because intimacy is a huge part of the foundation in a romantic relationship and everything else works because of it.
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And yes I know you are playing devils advocate and don't necessarily believe in the friend zone.
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I always end up being the devil's advocate and a debate turns into a lecture...
lol I've noticed that in some threads :P
I agree with simpak though, shit happens life and someone you were never attracted to today might seem attractive to you tomorrow or vice versa.
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Obviously that comment emulates my thoughts on women and I did in fact refer to myself as a douche I wasn't at all mimicking the stereotypical bro-fisting frat bro at all.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.
People who cry about the friend zone have this strange belief that the girl/guy they're being nice to owe them a romantic relationship or sex (see I even said romantic relationship this time so you don't get confused) for being nice. They think "I'm so nice they'll definitely go out with me now" and when they're told that they're only considered a friend they mope around and for some reason it's the girls fault that there is no romantic relationship because she saw the guy treating her as a friend instead of a love interest because he didn't make his intentions clear.
I guess their reasoning for that is that they worked hard to woo the woman and now she's rejecting them. It would be more frustration than anger, I'd imagine, like working hard for anything and being unsuccessful after a lot of effort.
Yes there is more than just sex to a relationship than friendship + sex.
If a girl you were into was like, "let's be best friends, I mean absolute best friends, let's move in together and make lots of future plans and you can move with me to Spain... but we can't have sex" you wouldn't go there, right? You'd still be considered "friend zoned". And you know why you wouldn't do it? Because intimacy is a huge part of the foundation in a romantic relationship and everything else works because of it.
Exactly!
But seriously, don't mess with me.
... Okay?
These types of discussions/debates really irk me.
That's because you take them too personally. Being too passionate about anything is bad.
Special At Specialist, think of a girl (assuming you're straight) that you would never even consider touching her lips with your own. Someone who you don't feel ANY sort of physical attraction towards ("ugly" is such an ugly word).
Now give them the nicest personality in the world, e.g. You're able to confide in them, you're able to express your opinions to them freely and you can trust them. BUT you still would never, ever, EVER consider kissing them.
That is all the "friendzone" is. Someone with a personality that you're comfortable with but whom you don't feel any sort of physical attraction towards.
So now put a girl in your position and replace the "friendzoned" guy in the other position and ta-da! The classic "friendzone" example!
It's no big deal and it's certainly not wrong for someone to place another person in the "friendzone" (wtf? lol).
It's also not wrong for the guy to want to be more than friends, as if that's the case, obviously the guy's physically attracted to the girl. But usually nothing really works out if the girl isn't really into the guy.
Anyone can end up in the friendzone, it's just whether the girl's attracted to you or not.
I'm not at all disagreeing with you. You made a good point and I'm glad you justified it with an analogy.
Everyone should just respect the fact that people are either attracted to someone or not attracted to someone, in a sexual way. It's not something that can be controlled.
Sorry I can't address everything you said, so I'll just pick this out. This is a good point, the "control" over "the friendzone". A lot of people assume that it's always the one who does the "friendzoning" that is the one in control, but you're claiming that it is a natural attraction beyond their control that determines what will happen between them (please correct me if I misinterpreted you).
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No the friendzone isn't a form of rejection.
My idea of rejection:
"Fuck off I hate you."
It's very simple really. I want to believe that girls and guys can just be friends, I want world where we can coexist peacefully. BELIEVE PEOPLE.
Besides I'm way too cool for a relationship
(http://img.pandawhale.com/54435-Doctor-Who-The-Club-Cant-Even-1epj.gif)
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My idea of rejection:
"Fuck off I hate you."
Not everyone is this down to Earth unfortunately... even without "the friendzone", there are several forms of rejection that are a lot more subtle than this. There is ignoring the other person, excluding them from discussions or events, talking behind their back, seducing them with the intention of embarrassing or humiliating them, etc.
It's very simple really. I want to believe that girls and guys can just be friends, I want world where we can coexist peacefully. BELIEVE PEOPLE.
I want this as well. Unfortunately, there is a lot of tension caused by single people who feel a strong urge to get in a relationship with someone. Once they are in a relationship, however, troubles like "the friendzone" almost always disappear. Perhaps it never existed in the first place? I don't know.
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^ True. Then again I can't really judge, I've never been in the situation where anyone ever wanted me.
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Haven't read any replies, but this is my take on the "Friendzone":
(http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/aYbPN27_460s_v1.jpg)
Note: Obvious repost is obvious.
Not everyone is going to be attracted to you, and that's ok. If you believe in the FZ, you are either hanging out with a girl who knows that you like her and likes the attention (in which you should man up, and do what's best for you which is distance yourself) or can't fathom the idea that being nice =/= getting sex.
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This is an interesting debate. My take on it:
I do believe that a friend zone exists, because I consciously push guys into it if I'm not physically attracted to them or I don't see them as boyfriend material. By "pushing them into it", I mean treating them like one guy would (probably) treat another guy - shoving, calling them 'bro' or 'buddy', snorting in front of them without feeling embarrassed, making stupid faces without a conscience.
Why do I friend zone them? Well, I've had experiences with guys getting the wrong idea/ getting a little too friendly, and it makes me uncomfortable. So I like to set the record straight, by preventing any unwanted advances at all. It's beneficial for the guy this way too, I think, because then I'm not leading them on for no reason.
Plus guys make better friends than girls I reckon. It's easier to be a crazy person around them. :P
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You know Spesh@Spesh, you shouldnt jump to conclusions about whether you've been friendzoned or not, because you may not have been ;) Or maybe you're looking in the wrong direction. The friendzone is all about perception.
A girl may be interested in you, but too shy to make a move, so you might see it as being 'friendzoned' when you really arent.
A girl who you meet up at a popular fast food restaurant, and show around your home town might feel like you've friendzoned her and vice versa, but reality is who the hell meets up at fast food restaurants and explores a home town if they werent keen on each other but were too shy to say so.
;)
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I think the friendzone does exist, to be honest. Look, I don't have a list of guys on my wall that I regularly update to keep track of whether they are 'in' the friendzone or not - the name implies a simplicity which doesn't exist. But when I met my boyfriend the attraction was already there - it didn't take long after getting to know each other that I realised I wanted to date him. As for friends, well, if you weren't attracted to them or their personality in the first place... I fail to see how any legitimate feelings could spring up from what was previously apathy.
My best friend now is male - and I can safely say there is no mutual attraction whatsoever. I just don't love him, and I think I would know by now if I did.
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Hmm. To add my own thoughts to this discussion, what if a guy isn't looking for the sexual component of a relationship and instead merely wants to spend more time with a particular girl? If they're pursuing that part of a relationship, surely they're not treating the girl as a sex object?
I can see people would reply that this guy would then be considered emotionally underdeveloped or clingy. But, not all guys want a relationship for sex. Some may just really enjoy the company of a particular girl. Is that a bad thing to want?
Then again, I might just have a very distorted view of what a relationship is.
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This is stupid and objectifies women. Women can be both friends and the literal meaning of mates. A relationship requires mutual attraction and if you're in the hypothetical construct called the 'friend zone,' you are either doing something wrong or it's just meant to be unrequited.
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I would agree it is stupid, however, I don't think it's a case so much of a guy "doing something wrong". There's not a set criteria for a girl to like you. There's no step-by-step guide to follow that you can deviate from and be "doing something wrong". Sometimes it doesn't matter what you "do", a girl (or guy) just doesn't like what you are.
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A discussion on whether "the friendzone" 'exists' or not should be preceded by defining what "the friendzone" actually is. Too often people argue about whether something is true or not, only to realise later that they weren't even talking about the same thing.
Wikipedia (sure, not a sociological textbook or anything, but it'll suffice) defines friend zone as "a platonic relationship wherein one person wishes to enter into a romantic or sexual relationship, while the other does not." [Link in the original]
Oxford defines it as "a situation in which a friendship exists between two people, one of whom has an unreciprocated romantic or sexual interest in the other."
If we accept this definition, and simply define the friendzone to be a specific case of unrequited love - surely it exists, then?
Suppose that John really liked Cindy. It's not a mere sexual attraction - John's gotten to know her quite well, and has developed a crush on her. Cindy tells John that she sees him as a great friend, but that's as far as it goes. According to that definition, she has effectively 'friendzoned' him, no?
I can see the downside of having a term used to specifically describe a situation in which a girl demarcates the relationship with a guy as purely platonic, and not vice versa. However, just because you criticise a term for being sexist, does not mean that the situation it describes is not real. The same goes if you deride people's reaction to being 'friendzoned'.
If you don't agree with the definition, then it's a different matter altogether.
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First of all, i know it might seem like people are going after you but you're the one who stuck your neck out on the block by making this topic :P.
This means that the guy wants to have an intimate relationship with the girl, take her out on dates, kiss/cuddle her etc. but the girl doesn't want that. She wants them to "just be friends" instead.
Whats wrong with that? Happens all the time, it's called unrequited love. If it even is love in these cases anyway.
What is your opinion on this? Does "the friendzone" exist? Is it a form of rejection? Is it wrong for a girl to put a guy in "the friendzone"? Is it wrong for a guy to want to be more than just friends? Also, what sort of guys end up in "the friendzone" and why?
It's a stupid pop-culture term from a friends episode, it's something some dude made up and it's just persisted ever since. It's a warped conception of the very old idea and feeling on unrequited love. In the friendzone the idea is that its something wrong and you have to escape from it, that someone put you there or its someones fault. Under the normal view of unrequited love, the other person simply doesn't love you, end of story.
The whole concept is tinged with the idea that there is something wrong with either part of the love isn't reciprocated. That every woman or man must love you and if they don't and just want to be friends, well, you're in the friendzone buddy!
Girls dont put guys in the friendzone, guys dont even put themselves in the friendzone, it's not a conscious activity. You don't draw up a pile of names on cards and decide whether to chuck them into a boxed named "friendzone" to decide. It just happens, you dont like someone romantically for whatever reason, you can't force it. The other party is usually interested in still being friends though, they like you, just not in a romantic way. You don't have to be friends with them if you want, you could walk alway right there. I see nothing wrong with having more friends though.
Every guy (or girl) ends up with some unrequited love believe it or not, it's part of the human condition. I'd wager it even happens to the most attractive or desired celebrities out there.
I think the problem with the friendzone is this - One person likes the other but only as a friend, fine so far. The second person likes the first in a romantic way and wants to do romantic things. There is a fundamental mismatch here between the dynamics of the relationship. It'll cause constant friction, thats why i think people say they're in the friendzone or something like that. It's a result of their own internal psychological friction. There isn't many ways to resolve this either, i can sympathise that it can be painful.
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I always end up being the devil's advocate and a debate turns into a lecture... I'm not taking any sides here, I'm just trying to ask heaps of questions to force people to justify their views so we can actually get a discussion going.
This is fundamentally unfair. You're hiding behind a shield of "i have no position on this issue and just playing x and y" and yet, you expect other people to stick their neck out and present their own view while you don't. It's quite clear you have a position on it, what that is may be less clear but we can probably infer it from your posts. I think if you want to continue to participate at all, you cant expect to have people put their views on the table for you to criticise, be contrarian about or 'be the devils advocate' without putting your views out for people to do the same.
Not everyone is going to be attracted to you, and that's ok. If you believe in the FZ, you are either hanging out with a girl who knows that you like her and likes the attention (in which you should man up, and do what's best for you which is distance yourself) or can't fathom the idea that being nice =/= getting sex.
Honestly, this is great advice. If you think you're in the "friendzone" which is just really code for not having your feelings reciprocated, it is often a good idea to distance yourself from them. If its been ongoing for months and doesn't look like it'll go away, it makes for a really screwy dynamic for a relationship between two people and you'll only be torturing yourself.
I do believe that a friend zone exists, because I consciously push guys into it if I'm not physically attracted to them or I don't see them as boyfriend material. By "pushing them into it", I mean treating them like one guy would (probably) treat another guy - shoving, calling them 'bro' or 'buddy', snorting in front of them without feeling embarrassed, making stupid faces without a conscience.
Isn't that just treating them as a friend though rather than specifically friendzoning them or anything. If you treat the majority of guys this way, it just seems like the way you act as a friend towards men rather than putting them in any special box. That's actually quite unusual because in my view you don't really put people in the friendzone. It's just naturally how things unfold.
I think it's interesting to note its often a matter of perspective. Let's take a girl (Athena) who really loves a guy (Plato) but he doesn't feel the same way. From Athena's perspective, she might considered to be "friendzoned" because there is a mismatch in what she wants things to be and what reality is. For Plato though, all he sees Athena as is a friend. The friendzone is a perspective view from the person who's love isn't reciprocated, the other person never consciously put them in the friendzone, all they consider them as is a friend.
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I think it's interesting to note its often a matter of perspective. Let's take a girl (Athena) who really loves a guy (Plato) but he doesn't feel the same way. From Athena's perspective, she might considered to be "friendzoned" because there is a mismatch in what she wants things to be and what reality is. For Plato though, all he sees Athena as is a friend. The friendzone is a perspective view from the person who's love isn't reciprocated, the other person never consciously put them in the friendzone, all they consider them as is a friend.
/thread