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General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: FallingStar on May 10, 2016, 10:57:29 am

Title: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on May 10, 2016, 10:57:29 am
So, fellow members. The upcoming election on July 2 following a double dissolution. I would like this thread to be a general discussion upon the key issues within the election as the pollies start campaigning. Also, if anyone want to participate in the election poll, you can do so here: Political parties

This is a general thread upon the upcoming July election. You can discuss many things such as key issues, the above poll, the party's ideology, who'd win and any other topic relevant to this election specifically.

And may the vote be with you.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on May 10, 2016, 04:41:31 pm
I look forward to Labor reclaiming government on July 2. I'm hoping they'll follow the Victorian Government's lead in the 'education state' by keeping their promise and implementing Gonski funding in full.

Since my areas are IT and education, I like to see the whole 'innovation' and 'coding in schools' schemes proposed by parties, as well as education reforms. I cannot ignore how badly the Liberals have handled the NBN over these past 3 years. I live in metro melb and the fastest internet speed I can get is ADSL2+ with ~5mbps download (which equates to aroundabout 700kb/s maximum).

HOWEVER, One thing that's really playing on my mind is border protection and how Labor will handle that. They don't exactly have the BEST record. That's probably the one issue i'd support the Coalition on.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: HopefulLawStudent on May 10, 2016, 05:27:47 pm
I'm actually just so sick of how binary politics seems to be.

This is probably stupid but I hate how there never seems to be bipartisan support on anything (or at least if there is, there's no real media coverage of it). It's like if Liberal wants to do x, Labor will do y even if they had previously voiced their support for x.

Like yeah, we get it. You're the opposition. But it'd be nice if you guys could agree on some things sometimes...
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on May 10, 2016, 06:32:17 pm
I wish the voting process was less complicated. Can someone tell me how preferencing deals etc. is democratic?

I don't like this talk about Liberal + Greens deals to boot a Labor member out of Batman (Vic Seat).
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on May 11, 2016, 12:23:13 pm
I agree with Aaron that the preference deals are not that democratic. For one, I actually do not see the Greens siding with the issues with many issues. They are too different and far apart in terms of ideology. Honestly, the best we can do is to pick the best of the worst, essentially. So far, this is my first time voting, and I have no idea who I am going to vote for.

That being said, I am annoyed that so many people do not take their vote seriously. I mean, you are in part, choosing the destiny of our country. I guess this may be solved by making voting optional, but then again, we will get a situation where the prime minister is voted by a very small minority of the Australian population.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: HopefulLawStudent on May 11, 2016, 03:50:42 pm
I guess this may be solved by making voting optional

If you think about it, voting is sort of optional in Australia. Turning up and getting your name marked off is compulsory but what you do with your vote is entirely up to you. It's a secret ballot.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on May 11, 2016, 04:50:20 pm
If you think about it, voting is sort of optional in Australia. Turning up and getting your name marked off is compulsory but what you do with your vote is entirely up to you. It's a secret ballot.

Or draw a donkey then drop your ballot. Draw a man in a female ballerina dress. Just something bizarre. That'll troll the AEC.

But really, no one actually encourages that kind of behaviour.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on May 12, 2016, 11:25:23 pm
If you think about it, voting is sort of optional in Australia. Turning up and getting your name marked off is compulsory but what you do with your vote is entirely up to you. It's a secret ballot.

I was watching an Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) video today that was showing a day in the life of a polling place worker and they played a scene where you'd go up and get your name crossed off on that massive folder of names/addresses. Being digital-minded, I'm quite puzzled at how this is still allowed, given the vast array of technologies available to do this... surely a laptop or something is much better to electronically search a database via division for the name to cross off or something?

If we go back to the core idea here of technology, why do we still vote using paper? Surely a system could be implemented so that it prevents 'cheating' of sorts. I don't think anyone likes waiting in line to get into the voting centre
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: MJRomeo81 on May 13, 2016, 09:26:42 pm
why do we still vote using paper?

Whenever e-voting is discussed, integrity of the voting process should be at the forefront of the discussion. There's only two things that truly matter when holding an election - privacy and an election result that reflected how people actually voted. Public confidence in democratic elections takes decades to develop and far less time to destroy.

Dealing with risk is not a matter of eliminating all uncertainties but of setting clear limits upon the scope for accidents, attacks and errors. How much risk is acceptable?. Let's say for argument sake that there's a method of voting that is far more efficient but at greater risk to the accuracy and security of the electoral process at a higher cost. Should it be accepted or rejected?

Being in enterprise IT, I find it hilarious how the public hold a higher standard for information security in the digital world than in the physical world. Take a credit card for example – I know people who are too afraid to use their credit card online. However those same people will very happily give their credit card to a waiter in a restaurant who they have never met and who walks away with it to a back room for two minutes. They feel comfortable about that physical world transaction but not about the cyberspace one. But this is online banking...if online banking suffers problems, refunds are possible after checking your bank statement. You can’t ‘refund’ a vote and ‘vote statements’ can’t be provided to check your vote was correctly recorded as that would enable vote selling and coercion.

To cast one’s vote as a discrete citizen—in private but within a dedicated civic space—meets the dual requirements of participating in a collective democratic act while retaining one’s absolute personal freedom and responsibility to vote as one wishes. In the privacy of a screened booth one can avoid the prying eyes of neighbours, ignore the instructions of one’s clan, spouse or associates, and have no fear or repercussions from those who would have you vote differently. This may not be so easy if one were voting online at home or in some other unprotected social setting.

Also, the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 (the Act) is very explicit about how to cast a vote at an election. The legislation would need to be changed to allow e-voting.

In this digital age there is something reassuringly traditional about using a physical pencil on the end of a piece of string in order to cast your vote. Given the security situation and the new complex risks it creates, I don't see how the benefits outweigh the costs. I think one of the best things about mandatory voting is the turnout. It's a great first step to political engagement. It's an important civic duty. A ritual that embodies the defining principle of democratic governance—the rule of the people by the people.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: mahler004 on May 15, 2016, 08:51:44 pm
I wish the voting process was less complicated. Can someone tell me how preferencing deals etc. is democratic?

I don't like this talk about Liberal + Greens deals to boot a Labor member out of Batman (Vic Seat).

I think there's a couple of issues at play here. Should say that I'm in a seat that's a Green/Labor contest (Wills) and is tipped to possibly go Green this election.

Preference deals in the House are about the order at which parties will preference each other on their how to vote cards. The deal is that the Liberals will preference the Greens in inner city Labor/Green seats and the Greens will run 'open tickets' in marginal Labor/Liberal seats in outer suburbs (i.e. 'vote 1 Green, order 2-whatever in whatever way you choose). The Greens will pick up the majority of Liberal preferences in those inner city seats (making Batman a Green seat on paper, Wills a very marginal Labor/Green seat, and making Melbourne a very safe Green seat). The majority of Green voters in those outer suburban marginals will still preference Labor, but the Liberals will still gain ~1000 votes from Green preferences - not a lot, but enough to swing a tight contest.

The Greens are always quick to point out that Labor has benefited from Liberal preferences in the past in these seats - but in my opinion there's a difference between the Liberals preferencing Labor in a safe 'left' seat, and the Greens not preferencing Labor in a marginal Labor/Liberal seat - which could very well lead to a re-elected Turnbull government. It's pretty clear that the Greens are putting their party interests ahead of a progressive Australia.

The other issue is that this means Labor has to spend money and manpower defending formerly-safe inner city seats, meaning that they have less money and manpower to spend attacking the Liberals in those outer suburban marginals. The Greens, meanwhile, will be a lot more comfortable in Melbourne, freeing up resources to spend in Batman, Wills, Higgins and Melbourne Ports.

For the record - I'll be voting Labor in my seat, and the Greens in the Senate - although both parties have seven weeks to convince me.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: vox nihili on May 16, 2016, 12:39:33 pm
Just on the digital voting. They did trial it in certain booths in the most recent state election, using iPads.

I was fortunate enough to be at one of those booths (London of all places) and found the experience a bit crummy. It was fine for the lower house, but trying to vote for the upper house below the line was practically impossible, as you couldn't fit everything on the one screen. I'm sure there are ways to fix it, but I think it'd make one less inclined to vote under the line and could potentially have been a little confusing.

As a bonus though, they let you take a receipt with a QR code that let you see how you voted, which was kind of cool.

Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Clara_tanone on May 22, 2016, 02:52:55 am
Was just wondering, does anyone here know which party is trying to privatize public housing?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on May 22, 2016, 02:02:31 pm
I'm actually just so sick of how binary politics seems to be.

This is probably stupid but I hate how there never seems to be bipartisan support on anything (or at least if there is, there's no real media coverage of it). It's like if Liberal wants to do x, Labor will do y even if they had previously voiced their support for x.

Like yeah, we get it. You're the opposition. But it'd be nice if you guys could agree on some things sometimes...
Aha except for the cruel treatment of Asylum seekers - they seem to be aligned there lol
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Clara_tanone on May 22, 2016, 05:52:21 pm
Aha except for the cruel treatment of Asylum seekers - they seem to be aligned there lol

Lol, you're probably right about that. :'(

Anybody here know which party wants to lower the HECs repayment threshold to $42000?
I don't want to make the wrong decision on election day and unfortunately don't follow politics too heavily!

Anyone?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: BigAl on May 22, 2016, 08:38:05 pm
Lol, you're probably right about that. :'(

Anybody here know which party wants to lower the HECs repayment threshold to $42000?
I don't want to make the wrong decision on election day and unfortunately don't follow politics too heavily!

Anyone?
I have no idea but it looks like the Greens are opposing the HECS increase. http://www.whatwillmydegreecost.com.au

I am going for the Greens
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: literally lauren on May 22, 2016, 09:01:31 pm
Bit of a breakdown here for the non-politically minded who have no idea what's going on :)

Also, I'd highly recommend this site:
http://australia.isidewith.com/

Couple of ideology-based questions, and it gives you a breakdown of your political alignments, which is pretty cool.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on May 23, 2016, 04:17:40 pm
Lol, you're probably right about that. :'(

Anybody here know which party wants to lower the HECs repayment threshold to $42000?
I don't want to make the wrong decision on election day and unfortunately don't follow politics too heavily!

Anyone?

I think it's the Libs that are implementing this policy. This is very high compared to when people have to pay taxes (18,200 if you don't already know). Labour, oppose it, so does the greens. They generally oppose such on the bases that the point of HECS was that the students don't pay unless they benefitted from the higher education, hence, they believe that they should keep the repayment threshold at its current rate at $54,126 for this financial year.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on June 09, 2016, 04:41:03 pm
If you have a spare 30 minutes and want to watch some dry humour, check out The Chaser's Election Desk (Ep 1).

http://iview.abc.net.au/programs/chasers-election-desk/LE1530H001S00
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 02, 2016, 08:40:04 am
Voting Day! Make sure you all go out and vote* by 6pm :)

(* if you're 18+)
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: brenden on July 02, 2016, 09:48:23 am
Vote early, vote often.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on July 02, 2016, 01:23:57 pm
Voted Already.

The Senate ballot paper is so bloody long, and awkward to write on in the comparatively small polling booths.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 02, 2016, 01:26:23 pm
Voted Already.

The Senate ballot paper is so bloody long, and awkward to write on in the comparatively small polling booths.


I know right..... It took me a few minutes to find the party I was looking for. I had to fold the paper because there wasn't enough room in the booth for me to write haha
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 02, 2016, 06:27:29 pm
Automatic updating graphs. Watch coverage and/or watch graphs update as the night goes on (for anyone interested):

http://www.abc.net.au/news/federal-election-2016/results/

or if you just want stats, http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseDefault-20499.htm

Enjoy.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Joseph41 on July 02, 2016, 06:50:54 pm
Thanks, Aaron. Should be an interesting evening.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: oooo on July 02, 2016, 08:30:16 pm
Since this is after all an educational website (:P), can someone please mind explaining what a double dissolution is?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: meganrobyn on July 02, 2016, 09:18:47 pm
Since this is after all an educational website (:P), can someone please mind explaining what a double dissolution is?

Normally the whole lower house is dismissed and re-elected, but only half the Senate is. That means half the senators will be experienced and up-to-date with the current bills, even if all new people get elected. A double dissolution is where *all* the Senate is re-elected, and it only happens when there's a special trigger (eg the Government thinks "important" legislation is being voted down).
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on July 02, 2016, 09:27:42 pm
In order for a Bill to become law or and act of parliament, the Bill must be passed by both the senate and the House of Representatives. However, a hostile senate which blocks all of the legislation enacted by the House of Reps can be a stagnation in terms of making laws. Preferably, negotiation is to take place. when the senate fails to pass the Bill in its full form. However, in the event of where the disagreement continues, the governor-general can call for the both the house of representatives and the senate to be shut down, dispersing its members. This is called a double dissolution (DD).

In the event of DD, a federal election takes place. Instead of the regular federal elections, a DD election involves re-electing the full senate as opposed to half of it.

When they have the new senate and house of reps, the parliament can again attempt to pass the bill again. If that fails, then a joint setting can be held, where both the house of reps and the senate sit together and vote on the bill in question.

It is risky for the PM as it means that he can lose his job as a new government can be installed during an election. But a dreadlock is equally bad, and a struggle to pass bills means nothing gets done. Either way, bad to the PM, but at least with the DD, the dreadlock will be solved.

For more information:
http://www.peo.gov.au/learning/fact-sheets/double-dissolution.html
http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/House_of_Representatives/Powers_practice_and_procedure/00_-_Infosheets/Infosheet_18_-_Double_Dissolution
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 03, 2016, 01:33:27 am
Here's some quick stats for you all at 1:30am

Spoiler
(http://i.imgur.com/zmwJiGJ.png)
Source: http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseStateFirstPrefsByParty-20499-NAT.htm

Interesting to note how close the 2PP is - AND how many informal votes there are.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on July 03, 2016, 09:13:14 am
Hung Parliament here we come.   ;)
A return to the Gillard vs. Abbott years in 2010.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: brenden on July 03, 2016, 09:18:57 am
Normally the whole lower house is dismissed and re-elected, but only half the Senate is. That means half the senators will be experienced and up-to-date with the current bills, even if all new people get elected. A double dissolution is where *all* the Senate is re-elected, and it only happens when there's a special trigger (eg the Government thinks "important" legislation is being voted down).
Since this is after all an educational website (:P), can someone please mind explaining what a double dissolution is?
Just to break it down really simply, this is what happnens in a DD:

> legislation tries to get passed
> it doesn't get passed, twice
> prime minister goes "what the FUCK  >:( >:( >:( >:( guys i HATE you I'm going to call an election" (legislation not being passed twice generates a double dissolution "trigger", meaning an election can be called).
> as MR said, both the houses of parliament are dissolved (i.e., double dissolution).

So basically, what happened last night is, Malcom Turnbull played himself. #anotherone #majorkey



Holy shit thought what a night?! I sort of bailed when it was 61 seats apiece... Can someone fill me in? I've read that it's 70 to 65 seats at the moment, and that 11 are in balance with 6 looking ALP likely? Am I right in suggesting the most probable outcome of the election is 75 to 71 seats; hung parliament?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: oooo on July 03, 2016, 02:02:20 pm
Thanks everybody for the replies. Just wondering, what was the bill that caused this double dissolution election (unless I've read wrong and this isn't a double dissolution election  :o) Also, what happens when there's a hung parliament?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on July 03, 2016, 08:08:22 pm
Thanks everybody for the replies. Just wondering, what was the bill that caused this double dissolution election (unless I've read wrong and this isn't a double dissolution election  :o) Also, what happens when there's a hung parliament?

There are 3 possible triggers for the Double Dissolution:

They tried to get the ABCC bill once again, through the senate, but did not get passed. Then, Malcom Turnbull called the double dissolution.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 03, 2016, 08:08:51 pm
Just to break it down really simply, this is what happnens in a DD:

> legislation tries to get passed
> it doesn't get passed, twice
> prime minister goes "what the FUCK  >:( >:( >:( >:( guys i HATE you I'm going to call an election" (legislation not being passed twice generates a double dissolution "trigger", meaning an election can be called).
> as MR said, both the houses of parliament are dissolved (i.e., double dissolution).

So basically, what happened last night is, Malcom Turnbull played himself. #anotherone #majorkey



Holy shit thought what a night?! I sort of bailed when it was 61 seats apiece... Can someone fill me in? I've read that it's 70 to 65 seats at the moment, and that 11 are in balance with 6 looking ALP likely? Am I right in suggesting the most probable outcome of the election is 75 to 71 seats; hung parliament?

You probably know already, but yep, hung parliament is virtually guaranteed at this point  :o

Thanks everybody for the replies. Just wondering, what was the bill that caused this double dissolution election (unless I've read wrong and this isn't a double dissolution election  :o) Also, what happens when there's a hung parliament?

This was definitely a double dissolution election! I read somewhere that it was (paraphrasing): building watchdog legislation. To be honest I'm not 100% sure on that element, aha!  ;D

If there is a hung parliament it will basically be up to the Coalition to enter into negotiations (formal or informal) with cross benchers to gain enough support for parliament to continue. Gillard was forced to do this in 2010. We'll see something similar this time, but really, a hung parliament doesn't do much in practice. The Coalition will be able govern with the support of the cross benchers, simply because they are the largest party, it makes sense.

Of course that says nothing for their ability to get bills passed in the new government. The Senate looks even worse for the Coalition now than it did before, so we're in for a very interesting 12 months  :)
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Glasses on July 03, 2016, 08:17:49 pm
I have a question - seeing as it was a double dissolution election, what will happen at the next election (in 3 years)? Seeing as senators are supposed to serve 6 year terms, will half of them still be up for re-election in the next election? - And if so, how do they work this out?

:)
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: HopefulLawStudent on July 03, 2016, 08:34:04 pm
From my understanding (so basically from what I understood of my legal teacher's special class on double dissolution elections), the first half that are voted into the Senate will serve the full six year term and the other half will only serve 3 years and stand for re/election next year, therefore re-establishing the cycle.

Hung parliament = worst cliffhanger ever.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: jamonwindeyer on July 03, 2016, 08:37:27 pm
I have a question - seeing as it was a double dissolution election, what will happen at the next election (in 3 years)? Seeing as senators are supposed to serve 6 year terms, will half of them still be up for re-election in the next election? - And if so, how do they work this out?

:)

My understanding is that the terms get reset, so yes half of them will be up for re-election in 3 years time!! In terms of who gets what, I think the idea is that the longer terms go to (through whatever means) the half of the senators (six of the twelve for every state) that received more votes in the double dissolution election. Not sure how they account for the preferences and such though  ::)

Edit: Sorry HLS didn't see your reply!
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 03, 2016, 08:53:36 pm
According to the AEC, Labor are leading in 69 seats, as opposed to the Coalition's 64.

http://vtr.aec.gov.au/HouseDefault-20499.htm for reference + other stats.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on July 03, 2016, 09:10:04 pm
Remember, not all the votes have been counted yet.

And allegedly, the AEC is not going to count anymore votes 'till Tuesday. I don't believe that though. Percent counted is still rising (though with a slow rate) which indicates that some officials are actually still counting the numbers.

Anyway, we have a hung parliament. Hung Parliament on a Double D election? Now what? Perhaps some interesting things are to come in Australian Election history.

And what if they couldn't reach agreement? Could this mean that we have to face another election, and to vote again? It's very possible.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on July 03, 2016, 10:44:14 pm
Thanks everybody for the replies. Just wondering, what was the bill that caused this double dissolution election (unless I've read wrong and this isn't a double dissolution election  :o)
Just wanted to clarify- the government knowingly goes into a double dissolution. It's not like they send the bill in three times and they're like "shit, double dissolution" - they knowingly send it into the senate in complete awareness that it will result in a double dissolution. It's when the govt cant get shit through coz the other hoes are as stubborn as hell (i forgot the names of the respective groups so i used shit, and hoes as a substitute hehe :P) -so they're like "aight fam well ima make your seat available to the aus public and see who's laughing then" .

So yeah, it's not a single bill which causes a double dissolution but persistent disharmony. Pre much I think this is the equivalent of the 'parliament shutting down' in the US when everything just shut down, but here we actually have a system to combat it.

Can someone correct me if I'm wrong pls I have a very vague memory of this stuff.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: The Usual Student on July 04, 2016, 12:19:35 am
wellllllllllll....
pauline hanson is back in the senate.........
thoughts everyone? hahaha
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on July 04, 2016, 12:31:50 am
wellllllllllll....
pauline hanson is back in the senate.........
thoughts everyone? hahaha
no thoughts. Here, there, or in the minds of those who allowed her in.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 04, 2016, 12:34:56 am
wellllllllllll....
pauline hanson is back in the senate.........
thoughts everyone? hahaha

We should respect the democratic process - the people have spoken. It's not like 'One Nation' is mysterious - it's been around for a while and everyone knows their principles and beliefs. I'm happy with a result that doesn't see a major party get another seat. The crossbench provides some difference and truth.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on July 04, 2016, 12:39:43 am
We should respect the democratic process - the people have spoken. It's not like 'One Nation' is mysterious - it's been around for a while and everyone knows their principles and beliefs. I'm happy with a result that doesn't see a major party get another seat. The crossbench provides some difference and truth.
Idk about that. I said what i said before purely out of the fact that no one reading it will be offended by it. If people reading this aren't opposed to her in their views I don't think they'd be in support of them on this site.

The people also spoken about the brexit, and we can all see the fruits of that ;)

The democratic purpose isn't infallible.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: brenden on July 04, 2016, 07:08:45 am
no thoughts. Here, there, or in the minds of those who allowed her in.
Dying
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: HopefulLawStudent on July 04, 2016, 10:28:21 am
The Senate's looking like an interesting mix-match of people so far.

No comment on Pauline Hansen. If I start talking about her, I'll never stop. :P

The democratic purpose isn't infallible.

Just look at Donald Trump.

Does anyone know why they aren't counting votes til Tuesday? Why not Monday?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: pi on July 04, 2016, 11:49:19 am
Does anyone know why they aren't counting votes til Tuesday? Why not Monday?

It was something about securing all the votes and making sure no votes got lost. Last election some postal votes were 'misplaced' and the AEC wants to make sure they're all accounted for before counting of votes re-commences.

no thoughts. Here, there, or in the minds of those who allowed her in.

This is hilarious and I agree completely. #quexit
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: likeneverbefore on July 05, 2016, 05:15:47 pm
Would a hung parliament create a sense that Australia is economically instable to foreign investors? :o
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: jakesilove on July 05, 2016, 05:17:59 pm
So glad Pauline Hanson is back- not because I agree with her policies, but because politics has become so BORING ever since Turnbull became PM. Abbott was entertaining with his winking, eating raw onions and threatening to "shirtfront" world leaders, and the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd fiasco was hilarious. But ever since it's been Turnbull v Shorten, Australian politics has been dull as hell (This 8 week long campaign was the most boring in history). I for one am counting on Senators Hanson and Hinch to liven things up a bit!

Also, no party having a majority in either house is healthy for our democracy and can be good for policy formulation and implementation. Compromise can often improve government legislation, and its good to provide a 'check' on the government's power.

On a side note, I think Turnbull is toast if the libs are forced to govern in a minority...he already lacks authority in his own party and now has no mandate to implement his own agenda. Conservatives in the liberal party are already starting to attack him...

Political discourse is important, as it allows multiple ideas and ideals to be heard, debated in the public sphere and considered by all relevant parties. This is fundamental to democracy; we don't elect dictators, and we ensure there are checks on all branches of government (at least to some, albeit minor, extent). Even politicians 'backstabbing' each other can serve an important political purpose; displaying the shifting tides of popularity, both personally and in terms of policy.

This, however, must operate within limits. When a campaign is about workers' rights, we do not elect a pro-slave Minister for the sake of political discourse. Why? Because they are wrong. They are wrong, objectively, subjectively, in every sense and in every sphere. Wrong.

Pauline Hanson is wrong. We as a society should despise every fiber of her being, and every word that secretes itself from her racist mouth. Just allowing her to speak is detrimental to Australia; giving her a pedestal to speak from makes me ashamed to be Australian.

"Interesting" is not a criteria in politics. At least, it shouldn't be. Donald Drumpf should not be elected because he can use the most buzzwords in a sentence. Of course, politicians need to interact with the masses; the masses should just know better. Clearly, Australia can no longer take the moral high ground when it comes to international decisions that shake the foundations of modern society. What we can do is make sure we don't welcome Hanson back into the public sphere; we can boo her at every turn, heckle her, debate against her (an often fruitless attempt, but important for the public to see), call her out for what she really is.

Compromise often does result in successful policy formulation and implementation, as it takes the best of all opinions and cohesively weaves them together; it also often doesn't. But when you compromise with an idea inherent wrong, necessarily dangerous and over-ridingly evil, that isn't a compromise; it's a sacrifice. And when the lives of individual people are at stake, and they are, that isn't a sacrifice we as a country should be willing to make.

Her election is shameful. We all should have done more.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on July 05, 2016, 07:08:40 pm
Her election is shameful. We all should have done more.
The question I put forward to you is: what? What could we have done?

Have you seen her campaign? It is completely unfounded, vehement, racist and blunt. There is no diplomacy in it. She didn't employ any tactility or expert opinion. She did not use any expert opinions. She used evidence without source. She claims that she knows Muslims in her party. She also claims that 98% of Australians are against halal -- and not once has she ever referred to a source to substantiate her claims.

She doesn't even speak eloquently - rather with slurred jagged sentences. She doesn't look like the archetypal respectable woman in society. Yet she manages to gather some seats.

It boggles my mind how she was elected. Like disregard the completely racist views, just her political method simply should not make sense. Like with Donald Trump I can see the substance that people appreciate. I understand why people would support him (well I somewhat understand) - because the appeal is there. With Pauline I simply cannot see a point of view why someone would vote for her.

So this makes me think that her election was inevitable. She was going to gather a seat regardless of what anyone did. It's unfortunate but this is the sad reality we live in now.

I think this is a force of evil that must run its course unfortunately.

The reality of politics.

EDIT: changed necessary with "force of evil" coz in no way is this necessary.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: HopefulLawStudent on July 05, 2016, 07:22:00 pm
The question I put forward to you is: what? What could we have done?

Have you seen her campaign? It is completely unfounded, vehement, racist and blunt. There is no diplomacy in it. She didn't employ any tactility or expert opinion. She did not use any expert opinions. She used evidence without source. She claims that she knows Muslims in her party. She also claims that 98% of Australians are against halal -- and not once has she ever referred to a source to substantiate her claims.

She doesn't even speak eloquently - rather with slurred jagged sentences. She doesn't look like the archetypal respectable woman in society. Yet she manages to gather some seats.

It boggles my mind how she was elected. Like disregard the completely racist views, just her political method simply should not make sense. Like with Donald Trump I can see the substance that people appreciate. I understand why people would support him (well I somewhat understand) - because the appeal is there. With Pauline I simply cannot see a point of view why someone would vote for her.

So this makes me think that her election was inevitable. She was going to gather a seat regardless of what anyone did. It's unfortunate but this is the sad reality we live in now.

I think this is a force of evil that must run its course unfortunately.

The reality of politics.

EDIT: changed necessary with "force of evil" coz in no way is this necessary.

What does it say about voters that Hanson was voted into parliament? After all, in theory, our parliamentarians are supposed to represent the views and values of their constituents... (And it's not like her racist and intolerant ideologies were a secret.)
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Elizawei on July 05, 2016, 07:23:49 pm
Sam Dasytari inviting Pauline to eat a Halal snack pack was by far one of the funniest moments ;)

If you haven't seen the 1 min vid and her hilarious response go watch it XD
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on July 05, 2016, 08:34:11 pm
Rather, we should oppose Hanson with facts, logic and reasoned arguments.
LOL
OMG
THIS IS THE FUNNIEST THING I'VE EVER READ LMAO OMG IM DYING HAHHAAH

Not sure if you've met a supporter or understand her supporters, but this definitely will not work. Sorry to say it but you're too idealistic here.

I agree with the rest of what you've said though, can't fight fire with fire. I refer to my previous point; we need to let the views run its course. It's not correct for us to respond in the same manner and using the same tactics she employs.

But reasoned, sustained arguments are probably the weakest ways to oppose her views.

And to tackle your first point: I don't think Jake was saying that she doesn't deserve her platform. She earned that seat (at a cost) - but it was earned. Rather, Jake was enforcing the notion that such fervent and inflammatory views should not have such a following within an expected tolerant and multicultural society such as Australia. So we as a community should try to highlight our multiculturalism and tolerance, and should not have let people reach such a hateful/threatened/fearful stage.

Quote
Sam Dasytari inviting Hanson to eat a Halan snack pack was by far one of the funniest moments ;)

If you haven't seen the 1 min vid and her hilarious response go watch it XD
LOL THIS WAS GOLD.

Did you also see his review of a HSP? He went through the criteria as seen on Halal Snack Pack Appreciation Society, utilising the correct terms such as "brothers and sisters." Lmao such a funny guy
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: brenden on July 05, 2016, 08:52:30 pm
I'm not quite sure I agree with this. Part of the reason she has a decent following is because there is a perception that the "elites" (namely the political and media class) are out of touch with and don't listen to the concerns espoused by the working class. The elites are dismissive and talk down to her supporters, fuelling division and an 'us vs them' mentality. What I was merely suggesting was for people to engage with her constituency and their concerns, rather than simply shout "racist!", "bigot!", "Islamophobe!", "Xenophobe!" etc. Let's remember that One nation only garnered just over 1% of the vote in 2013. Their sudden spike in support would suggest to me that people feel that they are not being listened to by the major parties...
I think she gains support when both major parties pretend that we live in a multicultural garden where everything is perfect...it is much better to have an open debate on tensions within our community from the political centre, however when this is not offered, people look  to far right and far left parties to have their concerns heard (although I still wouldn't call One Nation a far right party; there were much worse parties on the Senate ballot paper, including ones whose agenda bordered on neo-nazism).
I'd hate to see your definition of far right lol.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Aaron on July 05, 2016, 08:58:06 pm
That's your opinion. I could assert the same thing about a plethora of other political parties, including the greens, the ALP and the LNP on many issues...but does mean that these parties should not have representation in our federal parliament if people vote for them? And to be honest, the tone of your post is bordering on totalitarian. Why should we, in a free and open liberal democratic society, not give her a platform to represent the views of her constituents if she has been popularly elected? You're not going to persuade Hanson supporters to your point of view by merely "heckling" them and mindlessly chanting that they are "wrong". Rather, we should oppose Hanson with facts, logic and reasoned arguments. Why fight Hanson's "hatred" with a different form of hatred? Ultimately such an approach is counter-productive; her initial rise to stardom proves this point, as the more snobbish/biased against her the media was, the more popular she became. 

And I do think that Hanson has the potential to improve policy/legislative outcomes, in spite of her racism. She in fact has several policies I wholeheatedly agree with, including opposing Coal Seam Gas, opposing the TPP and supporting Euthanasia. Of course I detest many of her other policies, but in a democracy, we must respect the will of the people who elected her. 


Totally agreed. I'd +1 if I could.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: brenden on July 05, 2016, 09:02:29 pm
There's been reasons and facts and stuff thrown Pauline's way but they just got said like 60 years ago which is the awkward bit I s'pose
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Swagadaktal on July 05, 2016, 09:23:05 pm
I'm not quite sure I agree with this. Part of the reason she has a decent following is because there is a perception that the "elites" (namely the political and media class) are out of touch with and don't listen to the concerns espoused by the working class. The elites are dismissive and talk down to her supporters, fuelling division and an 'us vs them' mentality. What I was merely suggesting was for people to engage with her constituency and their concerns, rather than simply shout "racist!", "bigot!", "Islamophobe!", "Xenophobe!" etc. Let's remember that One nation only garnered just over 1% of the vote in 2013. Their sudden spike in support would suggest to me that people feel that they are not being listened to by the major parties...
I think she gains support when both major parties pretend that we live in a multicultural garden where everything is perfect...it is much better to have an open debate on tensions within our community from the political centre, however when this is not offered, people look  to far right and far left parties to have their concerns heard (although I still wouldn't call One Nation a far right party; there were much worse parties on the Senate ballot paper, including ones whose agenda bordered on neo-nazism).
What debate do you propose? I'm not quite sure what you expect other people to do? Like a genuine question here this isn't a debate technique I'm genuinely bemused considering the possible debate topics.

Do you think that we should have a debate on whether Mosques should be allowed? Or a debate on whether Halal certification should continue to exist (even though an investigation has cleared it)? What possible topic could be discussed where people could actually discuss the issue?

People have tried to deal with their concerns haven't they? Or am I thoroughly mistaken here? Haven't numerous investigations (including the one on Halal certifications that I just referred to) occurred? Yet Pauline Hanson just stated not a few days ago that "98% of Australians are against Halal" -- I'd love to think as idealistically as you but these techniques haven't worked. Reason has not worked. Evidence has not worked.

Throwing pejoratives are horrible in all ways, however, through a Machiavellian lens we can state that these pejoratives have illustrated Hanson and her views most effectively to hopefully deter future supporters from adopting a bigoted view in society. We can't alter the views of Hanson's supporters, so I think the second best option is to deter others from reaching the 'point of no return' as I like to call it.

I'd also like to question your argument that there's a 'disconnect' between the 'elitist' and 'working class'. I don't think this is a substantiated argument (please show me I'm wrong - I'm genuinely up for discussion here if I say anything here you disagree with, don't take any of these things wrongly I don't mean them as an attack. I really want to understand different points of views :) ) - Wouldn't you say a lot of people against Hanson are working class? Why is it that some people are enamoured by Hanson's alienation by the elitists but the other 98+% of the working class isn't? It's not the pejoratives thrown by the elitist that cause this division, but rather the years of racism and intolerance which has been brewing under the surface. This undercurrent is what is pushing these views to the front in this election, wouldn't you say?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: brenden on July 05, 2016, 09:33:32 pm
There has to be a disconnect between the classes - in a general sense. People struggle psychologically to envision experiences far from their own. I.e., imagine someone living within 10kms of the city trying to envision the working life of someone living in Pakenham that has a CBD job. I'm sure their views on public transport for example will be really, really different. Lol.This is just one really, really basic way that class is an obvious separator. Changes to the healthcare system? No biggy to healthy people with lots of money. $7 a couple of times a year? Done. I'll pay that $21 up front! But for someone chronically sick on low-income... that's daunting. (The last one isn't necessarily to do with class, but more to do with health... but it does reinforce the idae of envisioning experiences diff to your own I mentioned before. Why you think men feel like feminism is less necessary than women do lol. - so in that regard, there just has to be a disconnect between the elite and working class. Their lives are very, very different.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: The Raven on July 05, 2016, 09:41:55 pm
Throwing pejoratives are horrible in all ways, however, through a Machiavellian lens we can state that these pejoratives have illustrated Hanson and her views most effectively to hopefully deter future supporters from adopting a bigoted view in society. We can't alter the views of Hanson's supporters, so I think the second best option is to deter others from reaching the 'point of no return' as I like to call it.

In a way this is representative of the disconnect that abc was talking about. When we categorise a group of people as those at the 'point of no return' we feel justified in rejecting their needs as citizens in this democratic society. We can continue to castigate these voters as 'not representative of Australia', but what happens when that vote continues to increase with every election cycle that these people continue to feel rejected by the political mainstream. Perhaps we will ignore the rise until it is too late...

We might lament the presence of Trump in the US, but what we have to realise is that Trump isn't some spontaneous manifestation of the latent racism and xenophobia inside American citizens, his popularity is a product of the decades in which the political establishment has ignored the demands of its people. In this vein we see a shift to other minor parties, look at the NXT in South Australia and the way in which they have managed to make huge in roads in previously liberal safe areas. Why?
Xenophon is one of the few politicians willing to argue for trade protectionism in an area of mining and manufacturing that no longer has support from the mainstream parties.

As Abc pointed out, One Nation barely got any votes last election, does that mean that Australia has suddenly become much more rascist over the last 4 years? More likely, people are frustrated with the political mainstream and willing to lash out by voting for minor parties, of which One Nation is just one of many.

(Not trying to attack you in anyway, just pointing out a different way of looking at this issue)
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: FallingStar on July 05, 2016, 10:22:10 pm
Well,

The discontent of the major parties could probably explain the hung parliament, which is probably where we're going to go.
And that is shown through the rise in the minor parties in this election, be it One Nation, Nick Xenophon Team, The Greens... You name it. And there's more independents here too.

 
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: Glasses on July 05, 2016, 11:12:09 pm
I myself have a pretty strong dislike of Pauline Hanson - however I will admit that I love one of her policies. That policy being:

http://www.onenation.com.au/policies/university-allowance

But the sad thing is that despite how much I agree with this policy (and hate that centrelink payments are based on parental income), I will never vote for One Nation, because of (what I view as) their outrageous and discriminatory policies (e.g. regarding Islam, multiculturalism, refugees).

I do believe that Pauline Hanson believes in what she's doing, and thinks she's benefiting Australia - but what annoys me is the means through which she tries to do this. Her policies aside, I think she would be a good politician (because of her loyalty to Australia), but she's also extremely racist, ignorant and xenophobic (in my opinion).

I also don't like that her views tend to sway with what's 'in' at the time. E.g. She started off with her racist attitudes and comments towards Asians, then Indigenous Australians, and now Islam.

*I hope this doesn't appear that I'm endorsing Hanson, because I'm definitely not (and like I said, I strongly dislike her), but I do think that she's in politics for the benefit of Australia, not herself.*
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: dankfrank420 on July 06, 2016, 12:54:56 am
I think several comments here and those I see on Facebook have fallen into the political pattern - they attack the rise of the "far right"  as a "racist" and "xenophobic" backlash. What abc12345j correctly alludes to is not that we should simply shrug our shoulders and say "lol they're just bigots" but examine the why. Why has there seemingly been a resurgence in right wing politics?  You've got Trump, Brexit, Hofer in Austria and now One Nation over here.

The way I see it, this fundamentally comes down to globalization and the spinelessness of politicians to stand up for their country. There is a growing disconnect between the "elites" and the working class in the West. The elites who tell us that "free trade is always good", "diversity is our strength" and so on. Eventually, the working class see their jobs go overseas, their wage growth stagnant and their politicians lack of resolve to tackle immigration/radical Islam (these issues are undoubtedly intertwined). They turn around and think "hey, maybe these guys who I've been voting for for 30 years aren't looking out for my best interests?"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting Trump or Pauline in any way. While I'm sympathetic to some aspects of their cause (Anti-TPP, less involvement in overseas wars) they clearly lack any polish or political nous. All I'm saying is that what people like Swakadaktal (who I know IRL is a very smart kid) fail to understand is that you're playing into their trap by simply labeling them as Islamophobic bigots.

You're further widening the divide between the Elites/Media and their globalization message vs working class nativism.

This is fundamentally what it comes down to - globalization vs nationalism, and what you're seeing is that nationalism is swinging back hard due to the mass migration imposed by the elites on the working class.

It's very easy for us university students and well-off people to sit in our ivory towers and sneer at those "racist peasants" in the working class. You've got to understand their grievances and try to accommodate them, or all I see happening is that the nativist movement will only continue to grow in the West.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: HopefulLawStudent on July 06, 2016, 09:29:15 am
From the mouths of some Hanson voters.

Quote
"I think other politicians have done a rotten job so far, so we should give her a go,"

"She's the only one to have the guts to get things done," he said.

"With any luck, it can't get any worse. Everyone else already makes it worse, why not give her a turn?"

"A lot of them think she supports the people, not like politicians supporting themselves. They say she's more interested in the people than the position."

Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com.au/2016/07/04/queensland-voters-explain-why-they-backed-pauline-hanson-in-the/

Evidence that Australians are disillusioned with politicians.

Quote
It's not the pejoratives thrown by the elitist that cause this division, but rather the years of racism and intolerance which has been brewing under the surface.

Why can't it be a culmination of both? Y'all seem to be suggesting that it's either one or the other that has caused this, but I personally feel that it's not as clear cut as that (cos, y'know, life never is :P  )

---

Topic change cuz I have a question:

Turnbull was going around before the election promising no one will pay more to see the doctor because of the extended freeze on medicare rebates. Can someone please explain how a medicare freeze + not paying more is sustainable/logical? Won't doctors be ultimately forced to charge some copayment to meet the rising costs associated with running a medical practice?
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: vox nihili on July 06, 2016, 12:12:22 pm
Turnbull was going around before the election promising no one will pay more to see the doctor because of the extended freeze on medicare rebates. Can someone please explain how a medicare freeze + not paying more is sustainable/logical? Won't doctors be ultimately forced to charge some copayment to meet the rising costs associated with running a medical practice?

It's not
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: slothpomba on July 10, 2016, 12:34:23 am
I think i'll try nail two issues at once (only briefly skimmed over everything).

People say the Greens got Pauline Hanson elected because they changed the senate voting system. This is utterly false slander by those with a desperate crabs in a bucket mentality. The new senate voting changes mean that parties can't negotiate lists in secret and without the input of the voters, lists which in the past have gotten total wild cards elected (Jackie Lambie, Ricky Muir, The LDP). In some aspects, these people are as extreme as Pauline Hanson

So, it's clear our voting system can produce unexpected outcomes. The new changes put the power of the preference flow back into the hands of the people rather than arcane "preference whisperers".

Here's the real reason Pauline Hanson got elected - because people voted for her. There was no Greens, Liberal or Labor tricks, no party is to blame. She recieved 9% of the vote, almost 1 out of every 10 voters preferenced her first

Democracy is not to produce good outcomes, democracy is outcome neutral. All democracy is designed to do is represent the will of the people and by Pauline Hanson getting elected, the will of that 9% is represented, this outcome is democratic. The attack arguments Labor is running against The Greens are anti-democratic in that they think that if 1 in 10 people vote for someone, somehow, its a mistake that person gets a spot.

I hate many of Pauline Hansons policies but to ignore the fact people voted for her is a total fantasy. These people voted for her for a reason. Something the main parties aren't addressing, a fear, an idea, a belief. If the major parties (or indeed, *all* parties or society as a whole) doesn't address the concerns of these people, forces like Pauline Hanson will grow and grow.

We're seeing it all over the political world with people like Trump. Trump, however, predates the wider movement we saw even earlier in places like Greece (Golden Dawn) or many other European nations where the top two parties of the previous 50 years are no longer the top two, because they felt establishment, they ignored fears and concerns people were voicing. The major parties need to start listening to 9% that voted for Pauline Hanson and figure out what to do with them, to simply ignore them is a very dangerous thing indeed.
Title: Re: 2016 Australian election thread
Post by: vox nihili on July 10, 2016, 03:32:01 pm
I think i'll try nail two issues at once (only briefly skimmed over everything).

People say the Greens got Pauline Hanson elected because they changed the senate voting system. This is utterly false slander by those with a desperate crabs in a bucket mentality. The new senate voting changes mean that parties can't negotiate lists in secret and without the input of the voters, lists which in the past have gotten total wild cards elected (Jackie Lambie, Ricky Muir, The LDP). In some aspects, these people are as extreme as Pauline Hanson

So, it's clear our voting system can produce unexpected outcomes. The new changes put the power of the preference flow back into the hands of the people rather than arcane "preference whisperers".

Here's the real reason Pauline Hanson got elected - because people voted for her. There was no Greens, Liberal or Labor tricks, no party is to blame. She recieved 9% of the vote, almost 1 out of every 10 voters preferenced her first

Democracy is not to produce good outcomes, democracy is outcome neutral. All democracy is designed to do is represent the will of the people and by Pauline Hanson getting elected, the will of that 9% is represented, this outcome is democratic. The attack arguments Labor is running against The Greens are anti-democratic in that they think that if 1 in 10 people vote for someone, somehow, its a mistake that person gets a spot.

I hate many of Pauline Hansons policies but to ignore the fact people voted for her is a total fantasy. These people voted for her for a reason. Something the main parties aren't addressing, a fear, an idea, a belief. If the major parties (or indeed, *all* parties or society as a whole) doesn't address the concerns of these people, forces like Pauline Hanson will grow and grow.

We're seeing it all over the political world with people like Trump. Trump, however, predates the wider movement we saw even earlier in places like Greece (Golden Dawn) or many other European nations where the top two parties of the previous 50 years are no longer the top two, because they felt establishment, they ignored fears and concerns people were voicing. The major parties need to start listening to 9% that voted for Pauline Hanson and figure out what to do with them, to simply ignore them is a very dangerous thing indeed.

I agree with your point that the new system is fairer and is more likely to deliver a senate of a complexion that actually represents how people voted, but I would counter the implication that the changes the Greens did support helped One Nation get elected. It looks as though One Nation will pick up as many as three senate seats, which would have been far less likely under the old system. Group ticket voting, by and large, did ensure that One Nation failed to pick up seats in the Senate, because preference flows to them were always so poor. Abolishing group ticket voting, supported by the Greens, has made a huge contribution to the election of One Nation senators (except for Pauline herself of course, who did manage to pick up a full quota).

Also worth noting that One Nation only got 1.3% of the first preference vote in the house and only 4.3% in the senate nationally.
In NSW and WA, where they're also likely to pick up senate seats, they only got 4.13% and 3.86% respectively. Pretty hard to run the argument that Australia has voted to mandate the kind of hateful crap that bunch bring to parliament, especially given the power that comes with controlling those three seats.


On a happier note, One Nation's vote was lowest in the Victorian senate (excluding the territories).