ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => News and Politics => Topic started by: Calebark on February 05, 2018, 04:36:49 pm
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Link to article here.
Opposition Leader Matthew Guy promised that if elected at the end of this year, the Coalition will work with police to put 90 police officers rotating across various primary schools conducting outreach programs and making a presence, while 10 police officers will be stationed full-time at at-risk high schools across the state.
What are your thoughts on this?
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haven't considered this too deeply but my gut response is that I don't like it.
(this coming from someone who has never even download a movie or music from online)
Rotating programs through primary schools doesn't sound bad, but embedding police officers in schools? Not a fan
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Only skimmed the article, but what constitutes "at risk"?
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Only skimmed the article, but what constitutes "at risk"?
That's not disclosed anywhere in the article. I'm assuming it refers to being "at risk" of having violent youth who study there. (Nevermind that that is unlikely to spring from the school and that the response is likely to lead to further social segregation in schools. )
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Link to article here.
Opposition Leader Matthew Guy promised that if elected at the end of this year, the Coalition will work with police to put 90 police officers rotating across various primary schools conducting outreach programs and making a presence, while 10 police officers will be stationed full-time at at-risk high schools across the state.
What are your thoughts on this?
I agree with it. When I was in high school (a rank 550 ) high school.... which had problematic people, I felt a bit at risk in the environment.
It's nice having cops stopping kids smoking in the bathrooms and whatever goes on :P.
When the cops are there to move kids away, then the teacher can focus!
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Only skimmed the article, but what constitutes "at risk"?
It isn't stated. The purpose of the plan is to 'tackle this violent scourge of youth crime, to keep Victorians safe', so I assume schools in areas with higher rates of youth crime.
haven't considered this too deeply but my gut response is that I don't like it.
(this coming from someone who has never even download a movie or music from online)
Rotating programs through primary schools doesn't sound bad, but embedding police officers in schools? Not a fan
I agree. I don't mind the primary schools program, but definitely not a fan of the high school one. I doubt the kids more likely to commit crimes are the same kids at school day-in-and-day-out. I think the program is likely to make kids feel isolated or targeted, which would only further negative feelings.
I agree with it. When I was in high school (a rank 550 ) high school.... which had problematic people, I felt a bit at risk in the environment.
It's nice having cops stopping kids smoking in the bathrooms and whatever goes on :P.
When the cops are there to move kids away, then the teacher can focus!
The program is to fix crime, not move it along. I don't think employing police to stop smoking in bathrooms is going to do a whole lot of good for the community. It might make learning that teensy-bit easier, but that isn't the goal of the program
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It isn't stated. The purpose of the plan is to 'tackle this violent scourge of youth crime, to keep Victorians safe', so I assume schools in areas with higher rates of youth crime.
I agree. I don't mind the primary schools program, but definitely not a fan of the high school one. I doubt the kids more likely to commit crimes are the same kids at school day-in-and-day-out. I think the program is likely to make kids feel isolated or targeted, which would only further negative feelings.
The program is to fix crime, not move it along. I don't think employing police to stop smoking in bathrooms is going to do a whole lot of good for the community. It might make learning that teensy-bit easier, but that isn't the goal of the program
I understand you, but cops there can guide kids so that they go back on the right track. They can give talks and convince people out of crime.
It's doing both, its moving crime along and providing guidance.
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Having them rotating through primary schools sounds like a good idea - would be interesting to see how it is implemented though. The police in high schools just sounds bad though - The article says that they would effectively be 'on-duty' and may even carry guns, I don't know how bad it is in some of these schools (the worst I've had at either of my schools was some punch ups and some drug dealing) but whilst I think I constant police presence would make it safer for staff/students, I think it would increase social divides/school reputations and would not help the students who were committing the crimes.
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I understand you, but cops there can guide kids so that they go back on the right track. They can give talks and convince people out of crime.
It's doing both, its moving crime along and providing guidance.
I don't know if they can. Such crimes stem from an anti-authority, rebeliious state of mind... so I don't see how more authority and more of-the-same could get at-risk youth to change? It's much more than just realising what you're doing is wrong and making a conscious decision to change. They don't need people looking down on them (from their perspective) to change; they need people on their level.
Besides, a lot of teens are rebellious asses out of sheer stubbornness... hell, even I struggle being told what to do by anyone, and I'm not at-risk for anti-social behaviours.
Having them rotating through primary schools sounds like a good idea - would be interesting to see how it is implemented though. The police in high schools just sounds bad though - The article says that they would effectively be 'on-duty' and may even carry guns, I don't know how bad it is in some of these schools (the worst I've had at either of my schools was some punch ups and some drug dealing) but whilst I think I constant police presence would make it safer for staff/students, I think it would increase social divides/school reputations and would not help the students who were committing the crimes.
I'm curious to hear when they'll reveal if this plan actually entails guns or not. I think that's going to very much encourage an attitude that they're there acting as security rather than proponents of change.
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I understand you, but cops there can guide kids so that they go back on the right track. They can give talks and convince people out of crime.
It's doing both, its moving crime along and providing guidance.
Like Caleb, I feel that these talks would be highly unlikely to impact the people who need to change their behaviour. I'm worried that what would instead happen is:
1. Community is percieved as targeted
2. Community is further isolated from coexisting communities
3. Community is more likely to engage in antisocial behaviour
I suspect that impacts would be felt at a school level "I don't want to send my kid there, they have police officers due to being at risk" and by communities within the schools.
I perceived the response as being aimed at reducing crime committed outside of school due to the "tackle this violent scourge of youth crime, to keep Victorians safe" quote. Have you had a different perception (ie. more holisitic, also aimed at school environment) or am I misinterpreting your posts?
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As somebody who is qualified and currently in an education setting, not a fan in the slightest regarding the high school component. More resourcing to respond when appropriate, sure. I would think that permanently stationing police at a school creates a negative environment.. not to mention a waste of resources where it could be better used on our streets. A school is for learning. That's really the bottom line here.
I am more worried about the number of issues the school has to intervene with, things that aren't even mentioned here thus far (e.g. family custodial disputes which stem into the school environment). These can turn quite nasty where police have to be called.
I really enjoyed the police in schools program. I was in primary school when my school had a visit from a local police officer (she would come in once a year to talk about road safety, appropriate social behaviours etc).
I'd imagine that those doing the youth offending are those that are disengaged with their local school community and as a result would rarely even turn up. What do you do if you don't feel that you belong in your school community? Not show up. What happens when you don't show up... you have to find something else to pass the time.
Just my thoughts :)
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I think something maybe missing from the debate here is the perspective that the police officers might actually integrate into the school very seamlessly and not carry a position of "authority" but instead as a leader or mentor. My initial thought was the article meant having police officers in uniform with tasers on their belt walking around the school yard. Useless and authoritarian. Then I realised that they might have plain-clothed police officers who sit in on the classes and assist with facilitating exercises (like recess and lunch games, organising students in free-play, and speaking with students "at-risk" of turning to patterns of crime. The idea isn't soooo far fetched when you realise that police officers who work with children specifically, or families, do this kind of thing a lot of the time anyway - but aren't full-time "stationed" in one school (presuming it's the same in Victoria as it is in NSW).
I don't at all imagine the role of the police officer is to be a law-enforcer in the school: stopping people smoking, breaking up fights, etc. Perhaps they could assist with these things, but I can't imagine that would be their primary responsibility if the aim is to grow a relationship of respect.
Nonetheless: it's not something I support. I think rotation of plain clothes (but not concealed occupations) police officers in schools can do wonders for the relationships that students have with police outside of the school yard. I think having a full-time stationed police officer in the school isn't a judicious use of resources. Seems too concentrated to have one officer per school, for ten schools. When instead, you could have 40 schools visited regularly in rotation.
#HSCLegalstudies: Negative perspectives of, and interactions with, police officers held by youth is a considerable contributor to crime in youth but also in early adulthood - sometimes leading into adulthood.
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The idea isn't soooo far fetched when you realise that police officers who work with children specifically, or families, do this kind of thing a lot of the time anyway - but aren't full-time "stationed" in one school (presuming it's the same in Victoria as it is in NSW).
This isn't something that I'm aware of, and based on the article saying that "Victoria is the only state that does not have a police in schools program." I would suspect it doesn't really happen here? Not sure about this and happy to be corrected.
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This isn't something that I'm aware of, and based on the article saying that "Victoria is the only state that does not have a police in schools program." I would suspect it doesn't really happen here? Not sure about this and happy to be corrected.
Okay so this is what NSW has: http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/safety_and_prevention/your_community/young_people_and_youth_issues/youth_accordian/school_liaison_police
A school liaison program. We had this in high school - an officer comes to school and gives a year-group specific talk about a certain issue: drinking, pornography, speeding, and so on. Because I'm used to this maybe I'm not so hesitant about the Victorian suggestion.
But, they seem to be completely different programs. My understanding of what Victoria is proposing is kind of in the middle of the two: a liaison responsible for several schools, quite casual, not there to enforce the law but instead to work on relationships with the law.
Edit: I don't think I've made it clear that I haven't done extra research on this - this is just the way I've interpreted the original ABC article so I could be understanding the program incorrectly!
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Okay so this is what NSW has: http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/safety_and_prevention/your_community/young_people_and_youth_issues/youth_accordian/school_liaison_police
A school liaison program. We had this in high school - an officer comes to school and gives a year-group specific talk about a certain issue: drinking, pornography, speeding, and so on. Because I'm used to this maybe I'm not so hesitant about the Victorian suggestion.
But, they seem to be completely different programs. My understanding of what Victoria is proposing is kind of in the middle of the two: a liaison responsible for several schools, quite casual, not there to enforce the law but instead to work on relationships with the law.
Edit: I don't think I've made it clear that I haven't done extra research on this - this is just the way I've interpreted the original ABC article so I could be understanding the program incorrectly!
So we have police officers come in and give talks to a year level about specific issues (in highschool) but I'm unaware of anything where police officers would be there for a purpose other than giving a talk or responding to an incident
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So we have police officers come in and give talks to a year level about specific issues (in highschool) but I'm unaware of anything where police officers would be there for a purpose other than giving a talk or responding to an incident
Exactly right I suppose, the system is yet to be introduced. I wonder if the program in Victoria is a police liaison program that's system-organised across the state or if it is specific schools asking community police to address issues on an ad hoc basis? Either way, I'm just speculating about what the programs in the other states are that Victoria doesn't have, according to the article.
I don't know that in NSW anywhere we have police stationed at schools on a permanent basis.
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The people who truly are at high risk will probably not come to school.
The people who are feeling disconnected and thus committing anti social behaviour will feel even more margianlised. They will feel at least as if the police are there to discriminate against them and to stop them from hurting their friends or clsssmates.
Also, I think that this is more to protect the Liberal party's views of a conservative australia. In fact, thise who vote for Liberal party probably live far far away from the at risk school. It seems they simply wish to create a safer, prrhaps whiter society in their minds.
Please note: i do not intend to be racist, i simply wish to facilitate discussion a bit more and hence am adding my 2 cents. Thats all.
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The people who truly are at high risk will probably not come to school.
The people who are feeling disconnected and thus committing anti social behaviour will feel even more margianlised. They will feel at least as if the police are there to discriminate against them and to stop them from hurting their friends or clsssmates.
Also, I think that this is more to protect the Liberal party's views of a conservative australia. In fact, thise who vote for Liberal party probably live far far away from the at risk school. It seems they simply wish to create a safer, prrhaps whiter society in their minds.
Please note: i do not intend to be racist, i simply wish to facilitate discussion a bit more and hence am adding my 2 cents. Thats all.
That’s just race baiting :p (making everything about race )
If the liberal party wanted to ban “non whites “, they’d resurrect the white Australia policy.
I don’t think this is about race at all.
How does having police create a whiter Australia? Crime isn’t limited to “white “ people ( or insert any other race )
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Well, hasnt every recent resurgence in crime been about race or ethnicity?
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Hey guys, just a reminder to keep things both on-topic and respectful. We're discussing the article in question, not how race relates to crime. We can only keep having these discussions if we remain civil and don't make assumptions on behalf of others.
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Well, hasnt every recent resurgence in crime been about race or ethnicity?
Yes and no , but you can’t just say that A must result in B, because B happened after A.
In debating , I think it’s called a logical fallacy.
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@E6P You were saying before that you approve the the idea due to promoting a secure, safe school environment and that members of the police force may be able to guide kids back on track. Do you think this would happen at a whole school level or through conversations with individuals (or something else)?
@DBA Do you think that there is a more effective way in which this could be approached?
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@E6P You were saying before that you approve the the idea due to promoting a secure, safe school environment and that members of the police force may be able to guide kids back on track. Do you think this would happen at a whole school level or through conversations with individuals (or something else)?
@DBA Do you think that there is a more effective way in which this could be approached?
I’m thinking more like undercover people that kinda pose and act as mentors.
They would try and think/ imagine themselves in the life as a teen.
Individual basis ^^
Nor would they refer to the self as the police :)
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Well, hasnt every recent resurgence in crime been about race or ethnicity?
No.
The people who truly are at high risk will probably not come to school.
But you're not off the mark with this sentence. That's not to say students who are at risk aren't in schools, they often are. And they should be involved in social crime prevention. But there is a correlation between lack of school attendance and crime commission. Fortunately there are other social crime prevention measures in place at even earlier stages (but this varies across states and the effectiveness of it is also varied).
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Miniturtle: yes i do. Its time to stop the media from portraying these ethnicities or even describing them like tall enter race criminal. As we know, we are talking high school kids and rhese people have half their social lives on line. The reason that police cannot be presemt at school is because it makes these youths feel as if all the pressure is on them and that they are the reason the police are there. Or it could have the effect of the students just trying to completely seclude the offficers. Remember these are high risk schools and not just high risk people.
A better way is to target home environment, by targeting this, youths have a positive reinforcement as they are encouraged to act positively at home and hence also extending this to the community. Most troubled youths have troubled home environments.
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I think a full time cop at a school in full fluro and a gun is not a good idea, but someone whose technically a police officer (went through the academy etc) but has a support role (eg;counselor, psychologist, community liaison) would be OK. Keep in mind there thousands of cops who work in support roles and are not on the front lines with a gun every day (but went to the academy and are trained to) . Im pretty sure that's what they're planning, because an actual cop at school patrolling would be really dumb. I know so many kids from year 7 and 8 who wouldve been jailed and had their whole life fucked up if this was a thing back then, for getting caught with a machete or jumping someone etc. and most of them grew out of that phase. But to be fair there were alot of situations that the teachers shouldn'tve had to handle and were definitely better suited for police to break up.
But I think a cop there as a counsellor or something most of the time (but also able and trained to handle bad situations) would be good. I think it's better to have someone whose a cop break up a fight when you have eight testosterone fuelled 15 year olds trying to beat the fk out of someone, rather than leave the job to your 60 year old geography teacher. I also assume the police mandate at these schools will be much more of a pastoral role and to help placate dangerous situations to be sorted out by the school later once things are resolved. They won't be arresting people for little things every day, but will try to keep order and break things up so that things can be sorted with the students long term welfare in mind. At least that's what my expectation is. It probably isn't worth the resources though and opportunity cost of deploying someone at the school instead of somewhere else.
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Yes i agree that thats what will most likely happen. However, there are wellbeing officers at schools but many students either dont know or just dont want to go to them. Also, i would like to extend my sincere apologies if my comments about this issue have offended or hurt anyone. That definitely wasnt why i wrote them. Again sorry if anyone has felt this way.