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HSC Stuff => HSC History => HSC Humanities Stuff => HSC Subjects + Help => HSC Modern History => Topic started by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 07:46:20 pm

Title: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 07:46:20 pm
Hey fellow historians and welcome to ATAR Notes' Modern History Debate Thread!

How does this work?
Well, every week or so (depending on how much content you guys have covered in class) we will look to put up one question in relation to a specific part of the Modern History syllabus. For instance, we will kick off with Germany and WW1 tonight but if there are any specific questions you want let us know. These questions are going to allow for argument from both sides - those who both agree and disagree with the statement. Basically, we just want you guys to state which side you are for and provide as many statistics and other pieces of evidence to prove that what you are arguing is the truth!

Why should I get involved?
Well, firstly, each week FantasticBeasts3 and I will judge the arguments made and crown one user as the Modern History Debate Champion of the Week - it is just as cool as it sounds  ;) However, most importantly, a KEY skill for success in Modern History is the art of arguing and proving a point - it is perhaps the most critical part of writing a Band 6 Modern History essay. Many students fall into the habit of storytelling in their essays instead of maintaining a sophisticated argument for the entirety of their response. By getting involved, you can practice how to write with conviction and FB3 and myself can also give you some tips! :) Finally, getting involved prompts you to think critically and engage with other perspectives as to more deeply understand your thoughts and views on a topic which could very well pop up in your HSC exam!

This week we have two questions:
Was Nazi Germany a Totalitarian State?
What was the most important reason for Allied victory and German collapse?


I will kick things off :)

Friedrich and Brzezinski’s definition of a totalitarian state also includes the consolidation of power by an autocratic ruler within an organised, monolithic structure, an appearance of the Nazi state which, in reality, was quite different. Historians such as Ian Kershaw and Martin Broszat adopted the Structuralist approach to Germany’s administrative chaos, viewing it not as a deliberate aim of Hitler (as argued by the Intentionalists) but rather as a result of Hitler’s own lack of leadership. In Broszat’s The Hitler State (1969) he argues that the internal power structure in Hitler’s Germany was a “polycratic state.” This is proven through the duplication present in Hitler’s government, with the Ministry of Labour, for example, in direct competition with the German Labour Front.  Intentionalist historians have argued that this was a deliberate tactic of Hitler’s. However, it has been more correctly interpreted by the Structuralists to be a representation of his weakness as a dictator in the sense that according to Hans Mommsen, Hitler was “reluctant to make decisions.” To this extent, Hitler’s style of government and ruling contrasts greatly with a totalitarian state.


The entry of the USA into the war was the most vital reason for Allied victory and German collapse. Given the depleted nature of Germany's resources following the Allied Naval Blockade, the introduction of 1.45 million US troops by July 1918 and the resources they brought with them condemned the disillusioned Germans to defeat.

Do you agree? Let me know below! If you guys have ideas for different debate questions also chuck them below! :) Or, please vote in the poll as to which National Study you do, so we can create questions relevant to your National Study.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: owidjaja on February 26, 2018, 08:11:49 pm
This week's question: What was the most important reason for Allied victory and German collapse?

I will kick things off :)

The entry of the USA into the war was the most vital reason for Allied victory and German collapse. Given the depleted nature of Germany's resources following the Allied Naval Blockade, the introduction of 1.45 million US troops by July 1918 and the resources they brought with them condemned the disillusioned Germans to defeat.

Do you agree? Let me know below! If you guys have ideas for different debate questions also chuck them below! :)
Omg yes, I'm so ready for this!

Okay, in terms of the most important reason for Allied victory, I'd say Germany's choice in allies brought them down the most. Considering how Austria-Hungary was already unstable prior to WW1, it was already a terrible decision for them to join the war as well (albeit, it's kinda their fault for dragging Germany into the war but that's a debate for another day). It's unfortunate we don't get to look at the Eastern Front but the fact that Austria-Hungary was exhausted in 1916 against the Russians- the Russians! and barely managed to survive the Russian offensive because of instability in Russia basically demonstrates how weak they were as an ally. And don't forget how Italy changed sides half-way through the war, leaving Germany to be like a bank to Austria-Hungary because they were relatively stable (in comparison to Austria-Hungary). And unfortunately, my judgement on Austria-Hungary's alliance with Germany was almost inevitable- culturally, they're quite similar- and the Treaty of Versailles didn't stop them from forming an Anschluss in WW2. On the other hand, looking at the Allied powers, Britain and France were already the top empires prior to WW1 in terms of economy and trade- this would benefit them tremendously during WW1 since they were able to gain support from their colonies.

In terms of your argument on the US being a turning point, to a certain extent, the US did help, however the British Blockade was already doing their bit and they were starving Germany out to the point where German civilians suffered during the Turnip Winter and had to resort in raiding dead animals (mainly horses) off the streets- 80 000 German children had already starved to death in 1916 and if the British Blockade continued to do so, they would've starved Germany out of the war. And how did Britain achieve this? They were economically strong in terms of Allies (Russia was weak but France was also a strong ally) so they had the power to prohibit trade with the Central Powers. Would this take a while? To a certain extent, yes, but at that point during 1917 onwards, the Germans were on the verge of backing out of the war because the famine had hit the civilians (and soldiers) so hard they died from the flu epidemic. Even looking at the statistics on war losses overall, Germany had 2 million dead combatants- according to historian John Keagan- in comparison to other powers such as France/Russia with 1.7 million each and the British Empire with 1 million.

So yeah, my arguments are all over the place today xD.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 08:28:02 pm
Spoiler
Omg yes, I'm so ready for this!

Okay, in terms of the most important reason for Allied victory, I'd say Germany's choice in allies brought them down the most. Considering how Austria-Hungary was already unstable prior to WW1, it was already a terrible decision for them to join the war as well (albeit, it's kinda their fault for dragging Germany into the war but that's a debate for another day). It's unfortunate we don't get to look at the Eastern Front but the fact that Austria-Hungary was exhausted in 1916 against the Russians- the Russians! and barely managed to survive the Russian offensive because of instability in Russia basically demonstrates how weak they were as an ally. And don't forget how Italy changed sides half-way through the war, leaving Germany to be like a bank to Austria-Hungary because they were relatively stable (in comparison to Austria-Hungary). And unfortunately, my judgement on Austria-Hungary's alliance with Germany was almost inevitable- culturally, they're quite similar- and the Treaty of Versailles didn't stop them from forming an Anschluss in WW2. On the other hand, looking at the Allied powers, Britain and France were already the top empires prior to WW1 in terms of economy and trade- this would benefit them tremendously during WW1 since they were able to gain support from their colonies.

In terms of your argument on the US being a turning point, to a certain extent, the US did help, however the British Blockade was already doing their bit and they were starving Germany out to the point where German civilians suffered during the Turnip Winter and had to resort in raiding dead animals (mainly horses) off the streets- 80 000 German children had already starved to death in 1916 and if the British Blockade continued to do so, they would've starved Germany out of the war. And how did Britain achieve this? They were economically strong in terms of Allies (Russia was weak but France was also a strong ally) so they had the power to prohibit trade with the Central Powers. Would this take a while? To a certain extent, yes, but at that point during 1917 onwards, the Germans were on the verge of backing out of the war because the famine had hit the civilians (and soldiers) so hard they died from the flu epidemic. Even looking at the statistics on war losses overall, Germany had 2 million dead combatants- according to historian John Keagan- in comparison to other powers such as France/Russia with 1.7 million each and the British Empire with 1 million.

So yeah, my arguments are all over the place today xD.

So glad you're excited by this! What a great first reply! Your argument about the weakness of Germany's allies versus that of the British is one some students neglect but it is super important so props to you! I also really like how you are looking at the war as a whole and how the most important reason for collapse wasn't one event but rather that other reasons such as the Blockade added to these issues. However, given that the Germans gained troops from the Eastern Front and were gaining support, don't you think that the entry of the U.S was vitally important in countering this advantage that the Germans could have used because if the Americans didn't arrive the Germans could have regained control with the troops they were getting back?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: fantasticbeasts3 on February 26, 2018, 08:35:50 pm
Omg yes, I'm so ready for this!

......

So yeah, my arguments are all over the place today xD.

You definitely make a valid point - I didn't even think of Germany's choice in allies! However, while you do bring up the British Blockade already being pretty effective, the USA provided a morale boost for the Allies, where after the withdrawal of the Russians, they were able to provide fresh troops and resources. In saying this, the Spring Offensive wouldn't have been as much of a flop if it wasn't for the Americans; where by the end of March, there were ~250000 American troops joining the war on the Western Front.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: owidjaja on February 26, 2018, 08:50:28 pm
So glad you're excited by this! What a great first reply! Your argument about the weakness of Germany's allies versus that of the British is one some students neglect but it is super important so props to you! I also really like how you are looking at the war as a whole and how the most important reason for collapse wasn't one event but rather that other reasons such as the Blockade added to these issues. However, given that the Germans gained troops from the Eastern Front and were gaining support, don't you think that the entry of the U.S was vitally important in countering this advantage that the Germans could have used because if the Americans didn't arrive the Germans could have regained control with the troops they were getting back?
Hence my judgement on the US involvement being to a certain extent. However, their main significance was their presence, whereas you look at the role of Australians who actually helped the Allied victory. Sure, the US provided more troops but they didn't help much with the tactics. For example, the Battle of Hamel, which was a successfully planned battle led by General Monash. Why is this battle significant? Because General Monash was able plan out effectively, taking note of the strengths and weaknesses of each weapon and used it to their advantage- from my memory, I'm pretty sure they used airplanes for reconnaissance, tanks as the first line of offence and led troops behind the tanks as a support. Yes, the Americans were involved in this battle, however only a platoon was attached to each Australian company. They could've used more troops from the British colonies, French troops or transfer more Australian recruits to strengthen the battalions.

I'm pretty sure the Battle of Hamel technically isn't part of the syllabus but my point is, the Allies would've been able to strategically plan out the offensives without the US. Looking at the battle plans for the Battle of Amiens, most of the belligerents who led this battle was the British Empire and France with the US only supplying one division- even Australia had a significant role in the Hundred Days Offensive and they were used as support at the beginning of the war (with the exception of Gallipoli).

Ugh arguing against US entry is difficult xD.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 09:06:56 pm
Hence my judgement on the US involvement being to a certain extent. However, their main significance was their presence, whereas you look at the role of Australians who actually helped the Allied victory. Sure, the US provided more troops but they didn't help much with the tactics. For example, the Battle of Hamel, which was a successfully planned battle led by General Monash. Why is this battle significant? Because General Monash was able plan out effectively, taking note of the strengths and weaknesses of each weapon and used it to their advantage- from my memory, I'm pretty sure they used airplanes for reconnaissance, tanks as the first line of offence and led troops behind the tanks as a support. Yes, the Americans were involved in this battle, however only a platoon was attached to each Australian company. They could've used more troops from the British colonies, French troops or transfer more Australian recruits to strengthen the battalions.

I'm pretty sure the Battle of Hamel technically isn't part of the syllabus but my point is, the Allies would've been able to strategically plan out the offensives without the US. Looking at the battle plans for the Battle of Amiens, most of the belligerents who led this battle was the British Empire and France with the US only supplying one division- even Australia had a significant role in the Hundred Days Offensive and they were used as support at the beginning of the war (with the exception of Gallipoli).

Ugh arguing against US entry is difficult xD.

I'm glad it's hard haha! It's so important to challenge yourself and you are doing brilliantly! I would say though that by 1918 the astronomical number of US troops the Allies got was perhaps the greatest strategic advantage anyone could have as the Germans could not possibly compete and this was a great psychological gain for the Allies as well.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: owidjaja on February 26, 2018, 09:18:43 pm
I'm glad it's hard haha! It's so important to challenge yourself and you are doing brilliantly! I would say though that by 1918 the astronomical number of US troops the Allies got was perhaps the greatest strategic advantage anyone could have as the Germans could not possibly compete and this was a great psychological gain for the Allies as well.
Ahaha my argument kinda fell apart. However, I would like to add a final statement that if the US didn't enter the WW1, I would think the Allies and Central Powers would've still formed an armistice, considering how the Allies had more troops than the Central Powers (not a large difference, I would say) in this was because of the number of colonies the British Empire had (going back to the importance of Allies). And also, many French and British commanders disliked the naivety of the US soldiers and how independent they were from their commanders.

It was either an armistice or just mutual exhaustion- but those are my thoughts if the US didn't enter WW1 so these ideas are based on speculation xD.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 09:21:06 pm
Ahaha my argument kinda fell apart. However, I would like to add a final statement that if the US didn't enter the WW1, I would think the Allies and Central Powers would've still formed an armistice, considering how the Allies had more troops than the Central Powers (not a large difference, I would say) in this was because of the number of colonies the British Empire had (going back to the importance of Allies). And also, many French and British commanders disliked the naivety of the US soldiers and how independent they were from their commanders.

It was either an armistice or just mutual exhaustion- but those are my thoughts if the US didn't enter WW1 so these ideas are based on speculation xD.

You did so well arguing against the entry of the U.S troops as the most important part of the Allied victory - seriously well done! Seems like you are already ready to sit the HSC ;) Anyone else keen to contribute look at owidjaja's posts for inspiration on how to get started - they don't need to be as long or detailed though haha :P
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on February 26, 2018, 09:39:59 pm
While i do agree with owidjaja's point that Germanys choice of allies was a major reason for their defeat ( its one of the main ones), i still think that the entry of the US is the major reason. Because of the Luddenhorf offensive. If it continued the way that it started, then it would've pushed the allied line back significantly. They did gain back some territory with it. The use of stormtroopers was a very clever tactic. In principle, if the US had not entered when they did, Germany may not have won outright, but it would've done a serious amount of damage to the Allied effort. Lets not forget that the British and French had also been fighting the same war, it had taken its toll on them too, they were not immune.

In terms of Germany, being a totalitarian state:
What is totalitarianism?
Definition of Totalitarianism
The essence of totalitarianism can be found in its very name; it is a form of rule in which the government attempts to maintain 'total' control over society, including all aspects of the public and private lives of its citizens.

There are several characteristics that are common to totalitarian regimes, including:

Rule by a single party
Total control of the military
Total control over means of communication (such as newspapers, propaganda, etc…)
Police control with the use of terror as a control tactic
Control of the economy

Are these not all common characteristics of Nazi Germany?
Total control and rule by a single party? The nazi party became the only political party in germany at that time
Total control of the military? Hitler was the Fuher-the army pledged alliegence to him as the fuher of Germany
Total control over means of communication (such as newspapers, propaganda, etc…)? There was no such thing as freedom of the press. Joseph Gobbells and others made lots of propaganda in order to rasie levels of nationalism and anti-semitism
Police control with the use of terror as a control tactic? Yeah-the Gestappo as well as the SS and SD, and in the beginning there was the violent SA
Control of the economy? certainly-The nazi party controlled everything

So looking at this from a macro perspective, i  believe Nazi Germany emulated a totalitarian state.
On a micro level, there was indeed problems hence my arguement is not perfect
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 09:52:43 pm
snip........

To what extent would you argue Germany was totalitarian? You are completely correct in that you can never say it was completely totalitarian as there was always some form of opposition. However, how strong, in your opinion, was this opposition? There was certainly opposition in Youth Groups and the Church. I would say that Nazi Germany was to a great extent totalitarian yet total control was never gained. Do you agree or believe it was even more totalitarian or perhaps less in control as there was much instability internally in the Nazi Party?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on February 26, 2018, 10:04:24 pm
To what extent would you argue Germany was totalitarian? You are completely correct in that you can never say it was completely totalitarian as there was always some form of opposition. However, how strong, in your opinion, was this opposition? There was certainly opposition in Youth Groups and the Church. I would say that Nazi Germany was to a great extent totalitarian yet total control was never gained. Do you agree or believe it was even more totalitarian or perhaps less in control as there was much instability internally in the Nazi Party?
I agree with you there; and yes there may always be opposition (unless you're living in Orwells 1984) i don't think that opposition was that strong really IMO. While there may have been some intermal instability, the nazis were pretty good at eliminating their opposition, or at least keeping it to a minimum
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 10:27:32 pm
I agree with you there; and yes there may always be opposition (unless you're living in Orwells 1984) i don't think that opposition was that strong really IMO. While there may have been some intermal instability, the nazis were pretty good at eliminating their opposition, or at least keeping it to a minimum

So what do you think was most crucial in ensuring little opposition? Was the context in which the Nazis rose to power eg. The Great Depression? I believe propaganda was by far the most important as it saw the beliefs of Nazism become part of everyday life and thus resulted in indirect indoctrination as to encourage full loyalty to the Nazis. As such, the Gestapo, I believe were important for control in the image they created rather than practically enforcing terror as much of the time, due to propaganda, the ordinary citizens denounced each other.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on February 26, 2018, 10:37:56 pm
So what do you think was most crucial in ensuring little opposition? Was the context in which the Nazis rose to power eg. The Great Depression? I believe propaganda was by far the most important as it saw the beliefs of Nazism become part of everyday life and thus resulted in indirect indoctrination as to encourage full loyalty to the Nazis. As such, the Gestapo, I believe were important for control in the image they created rather than practically enforcing terror as much of the time, due to propaganda, the ordinary citizens denounced each other.
Agreed. Definitely was the propaganda. Gobbells was a propaganda master. It contributed to the high levels of nationalism and anti-semitism.

I also believe that the method that they used was successful in stamping out opposition. They preyed on peoples weaknesses (e.g. contextually-the great depressed, WR failure, anti semitism etc) and swayed most of the population over to their cause. They eliminated all opposition from those generations and then they indoctrinated the youth. By making the youth are ALL believing in your cause (with literally no ability to think other wise) and ensuring that opposition in the older generations is suppressed until they die out : THAT is how they destroyed opposition. Hope that makes sense
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on February 26, 2018, 10:51:48 pm
Agreed. Definitely was the propaganda. Gobbells was a propaganda master. It contributed to the high levels of nationalism and anti-semitism.

I also believe that the method that they used was successful in stamping out opposition. They preyed on peoples weaknesses (e.g. contextually-the great depressed, WR failure, anti semitism etc) and swayed most of the population over to their cause. They eliminated all opposition from those generations and then they indoctrinated the youth. By making the youth are ALL believing in your cause (with literally no ability to think other wise) and ensuring that opposition in the older generations is suppressed until they die out : THAT is how they destroyed opposition. Hope that makes sense

Have you heard of groups such as the Swing Movement and Edelweiss Pirates? Whilst Hitler gained significant control over the German Youth, these were examples of two groups who actively went against the Hitler Youth and thus demonstrated the lack of total obedience from the youth of Germany.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on February 28, 2018, 04:18:59 pm
Have you heard of groups such as the Swing Movement and Edelweiss Pirates? Whilst Hitler gained significant control over the German Youth, these were examples of two groups who actively went against the Hitler Youth and thus demonstrated the lack of total obedience from the youth of Germany.
I hadn't actually heard about those groups so i suppose thats true, there was small pockets of resistence. But they were a definite minority compared to the hitler youth. 
But were these groups full of children who ddin't agree with Hitlers way of thinking (were they free thinking) or where they influenced into joining these groups through ways such as propaganda?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: fantasticbeasts3 on February 28, 2018, 05:24:54 pm
I hadn't actually heard about those groups so i suppose thats true, there was small pockets of resistence. But they were a definite minority compared to the hitler youth. 
But were these groups full of children who ddin't agree with Hitlers way of thinking (were they free thinking) or where they influenced into joining these groups through ways such as propaganda?

For sure! Resistance groups were definitely a minority. The Edelweiss Pirates were a group of teenagers who decided they didn't like Hitler's way of thinking, and decided to form a group. I don't think they would've used propaganda to advertise the group though, because open opposition wouldn't be good for anyone involved, and would have consequences.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on March 05, 2018, 07:52:08 pm
Big shout out to both Owidjaja and Mada438 who spearheaded the debate last week!

This week, we are kicking it off with a much more interesting question: Was Hitler a lazy dictator?


There has been much written about how Hitler spent countless days in his mansion in the alps eating cream cakes and watching television and that he in fact had little interest in the politics of Germany. In addition, Hitler's role appears to have been overemphasised as a result of the propaganda ministry, which under Goebells, was in my opinion even more important in Hitler's success than his own actions as without Goebells Hitler would not have gained nearly as much power and support. The Propaganda Ministry portrayed Hitler as an everyday man and also a leader destined by fate to direct Germany to greatness. It also projected Hitler as at the head of all decisions when in actual fact he scarcely showed much interest and in reality just signed decisions off. As a result, he was not the strong dictator as made out and was rather disengaged at times. There are countless opinions on this question so keen to hear them :)
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 05, 2018, 08:26:44 pm
Big shout out to both Owidjaja and Mada438 who spearheaded the debate last week!

This week, we are kicking it off with a much more interesting question: Was Hitler a lazy dictator?


There has been much written about how Hitler spent countless days in his mansion in the Alps eating cream cakes and watching television and that he, in fact, had little interest in the politics of Germany. In addition, Hitler's role appears to have been overemphasised as a result of the propaganda ministry, which under Goebells, was in my opinion even more important in Hitler's success than his own actions as without Goebells Hitler would not have gained nearly as much power and support. The Propaganda Ministry portrayed Hitler as an everyday man and also a leader destined by fate to direct Germany to greatness. It also projected Hitler as at the head of all decisions when in actual fact he scarcely showed much interest and in reality just signed decisions off. As a result, he was not the strong dictator as made out and was rather disengaged at times. There are countless opinions on this question so keen to hear them :)
Let's be real-the Nazi's wouldn't have got anywhere without Hitler in the first place. He's the reason everything happened the way it did.
He just didn't micromanage everything
Can Malcolm Turnball make literally every decision and oversee EVERY SINGLE PART, every little detail about Australia? No, he can't and neither can Hitler.
 That's why he had various ministers to do some of the mircro management for him. Being the dictator of a country isn't an easy job
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: fantasticbeasts3 on March 05, 2018, 08:28:12 pm
I'm going to agree with dancing phalanges here! There has been evidence Hitler delegated a lot of stuff to departments he created - he never really ran anything himself personally. In terms of actually gaining support, Hitler was a great speaker, and was able to convince the people, but he often retreated to his holiday(?) house.

Spoiler
Also going to drop a documentary here that I watched on SBS on Sunday! It's called Hitler's Secrets, and focuses more on his role during WW2, but nonetheless, super interesting and very much worth the watch. There are bits about his personal life, and his role in actually leading Nazi Germany.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 05, 2018, 08:30:53 pm
I'm going to agree with dancing phalanges here! There has been evidence Hitler delegated a lot of stuff to departments he created - he never really ran anything himself personally. In terms of actually gaining support, Hitler was a great speaker, and was able to convince the people, but he often retreated to his holiday(?) house.

Spoiler
Also going to drop a documentary here that I watched on SBS on Sunday! It's called Hitler's Secrets, and focuses more on his role during WW2, but nonetheless, super interesting and very much worth the watch. There are bits about his personal life, and his role in actually leading Nazi Germany.
If it wasn't clear before, i do agree that he was a bit lazy; but with good reason.
Also another cool documentary series: "Hitlers Cirlce of Evil" on netflix  :)
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: fantasticbeasts3 on March 05, 2018, 08:31:48 pm
Let's be real-the Nazi's wouldn't have got anywhere without Hitler in the first place. He's the reason everything happened the way it did.
He just didn't micromanage everything
Can Malcolm Turnball make literally every decision and oversee EVERY SINGLE PART, every little detail about Australia? No, he can't and neither can Hitler.
 That's why he had various ministers to do some of the mircro management for him. Being the dictator of a country isn't an easy job

In terms of propaganda representation though, did he do everything they said? No, hahaha but it definitely made him look a lot better, especially with involvement in big decisions and what not. Of course he didn't micromanage everything though, not everyone has that much time on their hands lol. Just that he wasn't super involved and didn't really care after he got power.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on March 05, 2018, 08:33:51 pm
If it wasn't clear before, i do agree that he was a bit lazy; but with good reason.
Also another cool documentary series: "Hitlers Cirlce of Evil" on netflix  :)

Adam - if I wasn't clear before - rip my argument to shreds! ;) This is all for enjoyment I won't take it personally! Hitler did initially lead to the rise of the Nazis but I am focusing on his role as a dictator. Sure, he shouldn't have to look over everything but other than the 1933-1934 consolidation of power, he didn't seem to contribute personally to much of Nazi policy with the same vigour and enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: sudodds on March 07, 2018, 03:56:43 am
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2is7aqr.jpg)
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 07, 2018, 04:11:00 pm
(http://i66.tinypic.com/2is7aqr.jpg)
Keen for when you get back and are active again so we can continue our debating!  ;D
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: LochNess Monster on March 12, 2018, 07:02:08 pm
Through an intentionalist historian view, it can be seen that Hitler was not lazy but a strong dictator who ruled over Germany. However, he liked creating chaos as it would secure his own position. As Hitler came across unfortunate incidents in Germany's history such as the Great Depression 1929, he would turn these to his advantage. Therefore, Hitler had an opportunistic role in the Nazi state. However, within the chaos of his forced reign, Hitler would eliminate the opposition who seemed to be strong against him or able to rise up. This can be seen in the Night of Long Knives 1934 as Hitler recruited the SS army under Himmler to eradicate the powerful and growing SA. Hitler was someone who had a firm grasp on politics and could sway the populace opinion to his favour, yet was not necessarily a professed "puppet-master" as some historians would call it. Hitler's role in the Nazi state was not a lazy dictator but a calculating one who could sit back and let others "do his dirty work for him;" as the Fuhrer myth allowed him to keep a strong grip and hold of Germany's totalitarian governance.

*Note: Sorry for the "bracketed" things! I couldn't think of a nice way to say it on the spot. Haha.  ;) But hope y'all like it and can take something new from it.

Lots of love, history budd, LochNess.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 12, 2018, 07:41:54 pm
Through an intentionalist historian view, it can be seen that Hitler was not lazy but a strong dictator who ruled over Germany. However, he liked creating chaos as it would secure his own position. As Hitler came across unfortunate incidents in Germany's history such as the Great Depression 1929, he would turn these to his advantage. Therefore, Hitler had an opportunistic role in the Nazi state. However, within the chaos of his forced reign, Hitler would eliminate the opposition who seemed to be strong against him or able to rise up. This can be seen in the Night of Long Knives 1934 as Hitler recruited the SS army under Himmler to eradicate the powerful and growing SA. Hitler was someone who had a firm grasp on politics and could sway the populace opinion to his favour, yet was not necessarily a professed "puppet-master" as some historians would call it. Hitler's role in the Nazi state was not a lazy dictator but a calculating one who could sit back and let others "do his dirty work for him;" as the Fuhrer myth allowed him to keep a strong grip and hold of Germany's totalitarian governance.

*Note: Sorry for the "bracketed" things! I couldn't think of a nice way to say it on the spot. Haha.  ;) But hope y'all like it and can take something new from it.

Lots of love, history budd, LochNess.
You make some good points; but they're centered more around the early 1930s, when he rose and consoslidated power
What about the late 1930's as well as in WW2, where his "style" kind of changed
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: fantasticbeasts3 on March 12, 2018, 08:26:22 pm
Hello, hello!

Thank you to Mada438 and LochNess Monster who contributed to last week's debate!

This week's question is: What had the largest impact on the fall of the Weimar Republic?
While there were many factors that contributed to the fall of the Weimar Republic, the Great Depression had the largest impact. Prior to the Great Depression, Germany wasn't very economically stable; the strength of the economy was built on foreign loans. In relying on foreign loans, the Great Depression caused the withdrawal of the loans from the US, as economies around the world began to collapse. The Great Depression took away any form of stability Germany had, thus leading to the fall of the Weimar Republic.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: prickles on March 12, 2018, 08:29:41 pm
You make some good points; but they're centered more around the early 1930s, when he rose and consoslidated power
What about the late 1930's as well as in WW2, where his "style" kind of changed
By that time (late 1930's), had Hitler "taught" (maybe indoctrinated through fear) his inner circle e.g. Goebbels, Himmler, so well on his philosophy, that they carried out their actions 'the way Hitler would have wanted'? Without him even saying anything?
You could bring in the Fuhrerprinzip here also – not just his inner circle, but German society in general. They were expected to give complete obedience to the Fuhrer, and when making their own decisions, to think of doing things ‘the way Hitler would have wanted’. Hitler didn’t explicitly tell the German children to persecute the Jewish students in their schools – his propaganda and leadership principle did. Those thoughts would have remained with those children, to the extent where they did it without being told. Hitler didn’t put much work into that, except for outline his philosophy, and have Goebbels indoctrinate do many people through his propaganda.
So was Hitler a smart and hardworking leader in the early 30’s, so that so he could be a ‘lazy’ leader in the late 30’s?

(Adam I know I quoted you here, but it is not just directed at you, it's for everyone :))
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: jenae.madden on March 12, 2018, 09:11:45 pm
yooooo do a question on USA
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: prickles on March 12, 2018, 09:18:22 pm
yooooo do a question on USA
You could make your response to the current question include aspects of USA influence if you wanted to and felt it answered the question?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 12, 2018, 09:20:50 pm

(Adam I know I quoted you here, but it is not just directed at you, it's for everyone :))
No worries prickles  :)
Hello, hello!

Thank you to Mada438 and LochNess Monster who contributed to last week's debate!

This week's question is: What had the largest impact on the fall of the Weimar Republic?
While there were many factors that contributed to the fall of the Weimar Republic, the Great Depression had the largest impact. Prior to the Great Depression, Germany wasn't very economically stable; the strength of the economy was built on foreign loans. In relying on foreign loans, the Great Depression caused the withdrawal of the loans from the US, as economies around the world began to collapse. The Great Depression took away any form of stability Germany had, thus leading to the fall of the Weimar Republic.
While in the essay i wrote for my assessment, i argued that the economic depression was indeed the greatest factor influencing the WR's downfall, I'm going to present another reason as well. This is:
The treaty of Versailles
From it's estbalishment, the republic was doomed to fail. German nationalism was high as they believe they were a powerful nation. Some could not comprehend the loss of the war; they couldn't accept that Germany was weak and beaten by superior forces. So they looked for a scapegoat, someone to blame. This propogated the "stab in the back theory" (as a loose example). The Germans who could not accept loss blamed their defeat on the politicians that had signed the treaty. Thus the treaty was the catalyst for the continuing low morale in Germany throughout the time of the WR (yes, i do ackowledge the "golden age of weimar" being more successful).
The treaty further economically weakened Germany as well; with the massive amounts of repirations payments and the loss of key industrial terriotry to the French (the Ruhr, or the Rhine was it called?). This meant that Germany could never really gain much of an economic foothold to stabilize itself.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on March 12, 2018, 09:25:13 pm
Hello, hello!

Thank you to Mada438 and LochNess Monster who contributed to last week's debate!

This week's question is: What had the largest impact on the fall of the Weimar Republic?
While there were many factors that contributed to the fall of the Weimar Republic, the Great Depression had the largest impact. Prior to the Great Depression, Germany wasn't very economically stable; the strength of the economy was built on foreign loans. In relying on foreign loans, the Great Depression caused the withdrawal of the loans from the US, as economies around the world began to collapse. The Great Depression took away any form of stability Germany had, thus leading to the fall of the Weimar Republic.

I think the Great Depression was only a short term cause of the Collapse. The Republic could have actually overcome the Depression if they had handled it better but instead they cut unemployment funding when it was needed most. In contrast, Hitler promised reforms and hope for the masses. What does everyone else think?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 12, 2018, 09:47:19 pm
I think the Great Depression was only a short term cause of the Collapse. The Republic could have actually overcome the Depression if they had handled it better but instead they cut unemployment funding when it was needed most. In contrast, Hitler promised reforms and hope for the masses. What does everyone else think?
It wasn't so much about unemployment, as the relience on foregin loans.
With an already weak economy, the relience on these donations was quite high. With the removal of these loans Germany was far from prepared to handle the economic problems that ensued. Thus, i don't believe it would've been possible for Germany to overcome the depression.

The promises Hitler made only really seemed appealing because of the depression.
And is it really about short or long term cause? There are various short and long term causes that can be argued multiple ways as to how they contributed. I believe the depression was a big factor, regardless of whether it was short term or long term.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on March 12, 2018, 10:07:24 pm
It wasn't so much about unemployment, as the relience on foregin loans.
With an already weak economy, the relience on these donations was quite high. With the removal of these loans Germany was far from prepared to handle the economic problems that ensued. Thus, i don't believe it would've been possible for Germany to overcome the depression.

The promises Hitler made only really seemed appealing because of the depression.
And is it really about short or long term cause? There are various short and long term causes that can be argued multiple ways as to how they contributed. I believe the depression was a big factor, regardless of whether it was short term or long term.

The relience on foregin lones was dfefinitely a significant reason fot the collapse of rhe republic. Yeah i dont thnk the reoublic ciould have recovered from the economic damage that the depression created, but they really shooted themsleves in the feet by decreasing unemployment funding. that really ensured people wnet to the nazis. well the depression probably would not have had such a big impact if not for the long term causes of the republics downfall - just think about it - i would argue that the illegitimacy of the republic as a whole, as you said starting with the treety of versailles made the people gradually discontent with the republic, to the extent that the depression was the last straw. it was defintiely an important facotr but i would argue the political choices of the reopublic eg. article 48 letting the opposition gain influence/ did not allow a majoritie in the government and also later decisions eg. reducing employment funds, the political miscalculations of bruning were more important than economical decisions although the relience on foregin lones was definitely a big factor! :)

i also wouldnt argue that the republic was doomed from its estbalishment as you argued, if not for the heavy relience on foregin loans, the republic likely would have survived without the depression
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 12, 2018, 10:17:47 pm

i also wouldn't argue that the republic was doomed from its establishment as you argued, if not for the heavy reliance on foreign loans, the republic likely would have survived without the depression
I'll argue the rest of this another time. My brain has pretty much switched off ahahaha.
Just to add to the above point though, perhaps it might've survived the depression. But would 've survived much longer. Let's not forget the low morale of the German people (the still apparent weakness of the economy regardless of foreign loans) and the rise of Hitler and his brand of Nazism (which was still happening regardless of the effect of the depression)-the depression just accelerated that rise; they were still there.
So how might the image of a post great depression Weimar republic actually look?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: prickles on March 12, 2018, 10:24:05 pm
the rise of Hitler and his brand of Nazism (which was still happening regardless of the effect of the depression)-the depression just accelerated that rise; they were still there.
Just to kill your brain even more  ;D Do you think Hitler and his party would have been so powerful if the Great Depression hadn't of happened at all?
I think one of the largest impacts on the fall of the Weimar Republic was Hitler's ability to 'pick up the shreds' of everything - GD, ToV, social unrest, unfulfilled nationalism, hyperinflation etc etc, and his manipulation of the aforesaid nationalism of the people.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 17, 2018, 12:56:52 pm
The story of 20th century Germany in one picture
(https://imgur.com/QzGRV1q.png)
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Never.Give.Up on March 17, 2018, 01:21:08 pm
Just to kill your brain even more  ;D Do you think Hitler and his party would have been so powerful if the Great Depression hadn't of happened at all?
I think one of the largest impacts on the fall of the Weimar Republic was Hitler's ability to 'pick up the shreds' of everything - GD, ToV, social unrest, unfulfilled nationalism, hyperinflation etc etc, and his manipulation of the aforesaid nationalism of the people.
Taylor "the depression put the wind in Hitler's sails"
this sums it up i think....adding to what has been said...Hitler already had the power...but took advantage of the opportunity to attract Germans in a time of social disillusionment- he appealed to their nationalism....
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 17, 2018, 01:27:07 pm
Taylor "the depression put the wind in Hitler's sails"
this sums it up i think....adding to what has been said...Hitler already had the power...but took advantage of the opportunity to attract Germans in a time of social disillusionment- he appealed to their nationalism....
Looking at the contextual environment of Germany...
Hypothetically speaking do you think Hitler could've still come to power if it was not for an event such as the depression?
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Never.Give.Up on March 17, 2018, 01:49:05 pm
Looking at the contextual environment of Germany...
Hypothetically speaking do you think Hitler could've still come to power if it was not for an event such as the depression?
Yes ;) Hitler did not come to power BECAUSE of the depression...it was simply the weak handling by the WR that Hitler used to attract Germans. Hitler came to power because of nationalism, political intrigue and opportunism. The back-room conspiracy, mishandling of economic issues- including Depression ;), fundamental flaws of the Weimar Constitution and the social and psychological distress of the German citizens all contributed to his accession to power....because he used the weaknesses of the WR to appeal to their nationalism....Hitler was a protest vote, he gave them a sense of identity, a sense of hope when everything else was failing....
these r just my thoughts so take them how u want!!! ;D :D
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on March 28, 2018, 06:53:08 pm
Hey guys, I've been a bit slack with continuing this given my busy schedule so to both counter that issue and also get you guys discussing things you want to debate - what debate questions do you guys want to tackle! Post your suggestions here and we can have a poll when they are all in and take it from there!
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 28, 2018, 07:20:50 pm
Hey guys, I've been a bit slack with continuing this given my busy schedule so to both counter that issue and also get you guys discussing things you want to debate - what debate questions do you guys want to tackle! Post your suggestions here and we can have a poll when they are all in and take it from there!
Something that we don't know. Like we all study different options, so something we equally are knowledgeable about would make sure everyone could contribute!
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: sudodds on March 28, 2018, 07:35:21 pm
Something that we don't know. Like we all study different options, so something we equally are knowledgeable about would make sure everyone could contribute!
I've got an idea :)

Ideology doesn't matter. Whether it is Communism, Nationalism, Nazism, Conservatism - no one actually cares about this stuff. Time and time again we see supposed "ideologues" like Hitler, Stalin and Ho Chi Minh, but the thing is that they were less so ideologues and more so just power hungry. All they cared about was power, and ideology can be a means to achieve this power. But if it came to a point where their ideology threatened their control, they'd drop it or change it in a heartbeat.

This should work for pretty much all the different case studies :) Pls rip me to shreds!
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on March 28, 2018, 08:47:36 pm
I've got an idea :)

Ideology doesn't matter. Whether it is Communism, Nationalism, Nazism, Conservatism - no one actually cares about this stuff. Time and time again we see supposed "ideologues" like Hitler, Stalin and Ho Chi Minh, but the thing is that they were less so ideologues and more so just power hungry. All they cared about was power, and ideology can be a means to achieve this power. But if it came to a point where their ideology threatened their control, they'd drop it or change it in a heartbeat.

This should work for pretty much all the different case studies :) Pls rip me to shreds!
Their idealologies were just their view about how to gain power and how to govern once in power. Its the leaders opinion on which way is best. Hitler took the Nazism approach to gaining his power. Stalin took the "communist" (or was it more communism that lead to facism. Thats how it works isn't it?)route to gaining his power. An ideology is merely a means to and end.
Although i don't think they'd change their ideology if their power was threatened. Their ideology is their idea of the ideal way to govern once in power.
The way that they ruled doesnr change significantly. In the cases of both hitler and stalin; they were respectively nazi and communist until their downfall.

I'm not sure whether i actually agreed with you or not but i just wanted to put this out there 😂
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: sudodds on March 28, 2018, 09:23:49 pm
*Just a heads up I disagree completely with my own post, just wanted to get the conversation rolling :) Just in case anyone is confused with my radically different opinion now aha*

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Their idealologies were just their view about how to gain power and how to govern once in power. Its the leaders opinion on which way is best.
I don't believe that this is true, I think that in all the cases I mentioned (bar potentially Ho Chi Minh, I don't know much about him to be able to make a definitive statement on that though), ideology was actually VERY important to the individuals at hand. It was the reason that they wanted to gain power in the first place - to implement their ideology. Yes, I definitely believe that their is also an innate desire for power as well, I just don't think that a thirst for power, and a strong ideological view is mutually exclusive!

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Hitler took the Nazism approach to gaining his power.
Yes, but I don't think that means he didn't actually believe what he was saying. He wasn't a liberal that thought "oo people don't like Jewish people very much, I should get on that to become the eventual leader of Germany", he was a Nazi through and through, not just in presentation. You've just got to look at his context to see how this developed. Growing up in Austria at the time (which was a very ant-Semitic country even before Nazism came about) fuelled the development of these hideous views. Being Austrian also fuelled his sense of German nationalism (given that Austria felt a very strong connection to Germany, to the extent whereby the Treaty of Saint Germain (their equivalent of the Treaty of Versailles) literally had to force them to be independant, because they wanted to be annexed by Germany so bad. According to many that were stationed with him during World War I, Hitler would often make wild outbursts about how communists and Jews were conspiring against the German war effort, and this was at a time when those kind of views were less acceptable - people thought he was a bit mad while he was in the army. This was only worsened by the fact that he was injured when the Germans conceded defeat, so he didn't actually see the utter hopelessness of the situation, and wholeheartedly believed the stab-in-the-back myth that he was fed.

I don't think that Hitler's views on the world would have changed, even if he hadn't been granted the immense power that he had in the 1930s and 40s.

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Stalin took the "communist" (or was it more communism that lead to facism. Thats how it works isn't it?)route to gaining his power.
But the Communist Government was already in power when Stalin became leader, and had been for some time, so I don't think its really correct to say that he "took" the communist route. He was already a pretty active member of the party before then as well, even when he wasn't in such a prominent leadership position. He did transform communism, so it wasn't exactly the same as it was when Lenin was in charge (basically shifted from "communism from below" to "communism from above", forcing it on the people rather than facilitating a grass roots revolution), but it was still a communist system (just a really terrible one). His commitment to Communism is only really challenged by other communists, who have a different view of what communism should be (ie. Trotskyites will say he wasn't a communist, because he doesn't fit their definition of communism, and vice versa). 

Also to communism leading to facism... that's a discussion for another time aha. But as you can imagine, I definitely don't subscribe to the horseshoe theory aha.

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Although i don't think they'd change their ideology if their power was threatened. Their ideology is their idea of the ideal way to govern once in power. The way that they ruled doesnr change significantly. In the cases of both hitler and stalin; they were respectively nazi and communist until their downfall.
You've kind of changed your argument here a bit. This must suggest some level of commitment to their ideology then though beyond just being a means to an end? If not changing their ideology means the 'end' of their power, don't you think, if they weren't actually ideologues, they'd give it up?

Ideology goes a lot further than just "the ideal way to govern" as well - it's an entire world view. It's how they perceive their past, understand their present, and predict their future. For example, a capitalist will see the world through the lens of such things as supply and demand and individualism, whereas a communist will look at it through the lens of class conflict and collectivism. You don't have to be in a position of power or authority to be a capitalist or a communist, and I think that notion kind of takes away the agency of ordinary people, suggesting that in all cases they just passively accept the situation that they are in.

Though to almost add weight to your argument, there are examples of ideologues forgoing ideology in order to secure their power base! For example, after the Russian Civil War and under Lenin, the Communist Party implemented a policy known as the New Economic Policy, which actually relaxed many communist standards, and reintroduced some elements of capitalism back into the economy, to relive economic pressures placed on the country after war communism. If they had continued with the War Communism policy, almost definitely the Bolsheviks would have lost power, so it was a very important change to keep power. Though as Lenin argued, it was a pragmatic decision, as the country at the time wasn't economically equipped to transition into a socialist system, so they needed to use that small bit of capitalism to restimulate the economy back into a workable one, so they could introduce socialism easier later on.

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I'm not sure whether i actually agreed with you or not but i just wanted to put this out there 😂
You kind of did both aha! But that's great, its good to test out different sides, will help you work out later on which one you agree with :) The best way to support your own argument in an essay is to disprove the opposition, and that means you have to understand the opposition first :) Great work!
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: owidjaja on March 28, 2018, 09:54:15 pm
Ideology doesn't matter. Whether it is Communism, Nationalism, Nazism, Conservatism - no one actually cares about this stuff. Time and time again we see supposed "ideologues" like Hitler, Stalin and Ho Chi Minh, but the thing is that they were less so ideologues and more so just power hungry. All they cared about was power, and ideology can be a means to achieve this power. But if it came to a point where their ideology threatened their control, they'd drop it or change it in a heartbeat.
I feel like ideologies are significant to a great extent. On one hand, these ideologies allow individuals to take a stance on political issues that have occurred and believe their ideology is an improvement to the current one. It is this belief that their ideology is better can result in improvement that allows them to gain more power. Going with the Weimar Germany example, many Germans despised socialism- conservatives called it the 'Jew's Republic.' Remember, these ideologies are what political parties use to gain popularity. Once they put this ideology into action, it doesn't usually work out as well, which is basically what happened to Weimar Germany- they tried to make things more equal (e.g. proportional representation) but there was a lingering desire to bring back old Germany. This use of ideologies in allowing someone to gain popularity is used with Hitler and the Nazis. Hitler used nationalism to stir up the pride that was lost in WW1. The confusing thing about the Nazis, however, is that the German translation of the Nazis is National Socialism. How does one apply Socialism when they're placed in the far right? I think they used this as a way to try and satisfy the left- and right- wing, but in the end, all they did was appeal to the conservatives.

TL;DR: Are ideologies significant? Yes, to some extent. These ideologies are used to spread their influence and gain popularity, but when applying these ideologies, it generally doesn't work out. tbh idk if any of that made sense lmao I tried
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on April 02, 2018, 08:02:30 pm
This week's question is accessible to all and was the 2017 HSC Question for the Personality section!

‘To be significant, an individual must contribute to change.’

Do you believe that in order to be influential, your personality had to make some sort of change? Or would you argue that your personality can still be significant by sticking to the status quo and just strengthening it? For instance, if you study Albert Speer, which was more significant - his work in transforming the armaments ministry (change) or his architectural work and use of slave labour which was built upon pre-existing values of anti-Semitism and permanence from Nazi ideology (not change). Interested to hear your thoughts! :)
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: owidjaja on April 02, 2018, 09:05:24 pm
This week's question is accessible to all and was the 2017 HSC Question for the Personality section!

‘To be significant, an individual must contribute to change.’

Do you believe that in order to be influential, your personality had to make some sort of change? Or would you argue that your personality can still be significant by sticking to the status quo and just strengthening it? For instance, if you study Albert Speer, which was more significant - his work in transforming the armaments ministry (change) or his architectural work and use of slave labour which was built upon pre-existing values of anti-Semitism and permanence from Nazi ideology (not change). Interested to hear your thoughts! :)
Omg yasss (I swear I'm not procrastinating; my half-yearlies are on my Personality Study xD).

I would say that statement is accurate to a great extent. Personalities can cause change or strengthen the ideologies circulating during their time. I'm studying Leni Riefenstahl and the great thing about her is that her life is the epitome of ambiguity. On one hand, her role as a female director was revolutionary in being a Feminist pioneer. She used filters and film techniques that were innovative at the time. For example, her films prior to her meeting of Hitler established the 'Leni touch'- she loved to use dramatic intensity and even ordered some new filters to give her films a mystical aesthetic. You can clearly see this in her film 'The Blue Light.' These techniques resonate with her propagandistic-style films where she would use telephoto lenses in her films.

On the other hand, Riefenstahl's ambitious personality also resulted her in reaffirming Nazi ideologies, which is why there is a common debate whether or not Riefenstahl's films were propagandistic or artistic. Personally, both ideas aren't mutually exclusive- films can be propagandistic in an artistic way. Her admiration for Hitler was extremely obvious- her calling Hitler 'the greatest man who ever lived' to her stories on how her first time listening to Hitler speak made her so amazed she had no energy to hail a taxi (although this is questionable since Riefenstahl is notorious for saying disingenuous comments) and then Riefenstahl initiating a meeting with Hitler. Her admiration was obvious (although, at the same time, 90% of Germany was also swept away by Hitler- who could blame her?). The fact that the opening scene in 'Triumph of the Will' was Hitler descending from the clouds and a motorcade through the cheering crowds of Nuremberg is pretty darn obvious how much she admires him. However, she did state numerous times that she did not agree with the Nazis' racial policy. She remained nonchalant towards the banning of Jews in the film industry (and her friends being forced to move in Hollywood), which reflects how much of an opportunist Riefenstahl is. As a result, she didn't really do much in the field of social justice and continued to work with the Nazis until the end of WW2.

Even though she reaffirmed Nazi ideologies and didn't 'contribute to change', she did help the Nazis propagate their ideologies. One of the reasons why the Nazis were so successful in spreading their ideologies was through their domination of the culture- Hitler and Goebbels were huge film nerds (and Hitler was an artist before moving into politics) so this significantly impacted the way Hitler wanted to gain power. (Fun fact: Hitler and Goebbels loved Metropolis so much they approached Fritz Lang to be their propagandist but his mother was Jewish so he booked the next plane ticket to Paris!).

TL;DR; Yes, to be significant one should be able to 'contribute to change' as seen in Riefenstahl's contributions to the film industry. But one of the reasons why Riefenstahl is so significant is her affirmation of the Nazi ideologies and the controversy on whether she was a Nazi supporter or not.

(Hopefully my arguments make sense- using this as an indicating on how ready I am for my Modern exam on Wednesday!)
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on April 12, 2018, 02:58:37 pm
I was neglecting this thread because of my study for half yearlies  :(
But no more!
This week's question is accessible to all and was the 2017 HSC Question for the Personality section!

‘To be significant, an individual must contribute to change.’

Do you believe that in order to be influential, your personality had to make some sort of change? Or would you argue that your personality can still be significant by sticking to the status quo and just strengthening it? For instance, if you study Albert Speer, which was more significant - his work in transforming the armaments ministry (change) or his architectural work and use of slave labour which was built upon pre-existing values of anti-Semitism and permanence from Nazi ideology (not change). Interested to hear your thoughts! :)
Ouch, this one's difficult for me because i only did 1 lesson my personality study (Albert Speer) before the end of term.
I agree with this, because in general terms if someone just follows the status quo they're not going to be noticed. Like if Speers contribution was to the status quo: "his architectural work and use of slave labour which was built upon pre-existing values of anti-Semitism and permanence from Nazi ideology" then he would've not been as important. I can just see it now.... Someone asks "who was Albert speer" and someone replies "oh he was a good architect who was a close mate of Hitlers who subtly was anti-semitic (this is what i believe through his use of slave labour and his careful selection of the living spaces of Jews only to knock down).
Albert Speer was important because he contributed to change. He kept Germany in the war for a few extra years. When the Soviets stopped the Germans near Moscow and with the United States now entering the war, the Germans idea of waging Blitzkrieg was coming to an end. Faced with a long lasting two-front war with two superpowers, Germany had to significantly increase its armaments production to cope.
For some reason, it won't allow me to upload images but This table shows the increase in German armaments production before and during Speers time as the minister; as well as this one
To summarise this:
 97% increase in ammunition Production
Tank production up 25%
Overall arms production up 59%

Part of the Speer legacy is the way his control of the armaments industry kept Germany in the war for longer.

Briefly, i want to mention another way he contributed to change: His acknowledgement of the atrocities of the Reich at the Nuremberg Trials
By admitting to this, he changed the generalisations (that all Nazis were inherently evil and could not acknowledge what had happened) by admitting to what the Reich had done. This was also a change, as it changed the perceptions and generalisations made about all Nazis by displaying empathetic thought and acknowledgement.
This is part of the reason why Speer is so well remembered today.

If Speer had not contributed to these two changes, it can be argued that he would not have been as significant.
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on April 12, 2018, 05:36:20 pm
I was neglecting this thread because of my study for half yearlies  :(
But no more!Ouch, this one's difficult for me because i only did 1 lesson my personality study (Albert Speer) before the end of term.
I agree with this, because in general terms if someone just follows the status quo they're not going to be noticed. Like if Speers contribution was to the status quo: "his architectural work and use of slave labour which was built upon pre-existing values of anti-Semitism and permanence from Nazi ideology" then he would've not been as important. I can just see it now.... Someone asks "who was Albert speer" and someone replies "oh he was a good architect who was a close mate of Hitlers who subtly was anti-semitic (this is what i believe through his use of slave labour and his careful selection of the living spaces of Jews only to knock down).
Albert Speer was important because he contributed to change. He kept Germany in the war for a few extra years. When the Soviets stopped the Germans near Moscow and with the United States now entering the war, the Germans idea of waging Blitzkrieg was coming to an end. Faced with a long lasting two-front war with two superpowers, Germany had to significantly increase its armaments production to cope.
For some reason, it won't allow me to upload images but This table shows the increase in German armaments production before and during Speers time as the minister; as well as this one
To summarise this:
 97% increase in ammunition Production
Tank production up 25%
Overall arms production up 59%

Part of the Speer legacy is the way his control of the armaments industry kept Germany in the war for longer.

Briefly, i want to mention another way he contributed to change: His acknowledgement of the atrocities of the Reich at the Nuremberg Trials
By admitting to this, he changed the generalisations (that all Nazis were inherently evil and could not acknowledge what had happened) by admitting to what the Reich had done. This was also a change, as it changed the perceptions and generalisations made about all Nazis by displaying empathetic thought and acknowledgement.
This is part of the reason why Speer is so well remembered today.

If Speer had not contributed to these two changes, it can be argued that he would not have been as significant.

I'm so glad you brought up the Nuremberg Trials point as that was a key if not the key reason supporting that an individual must contribute to change in order to be significant. I want to pose another question to you guys to see how you would argue this VERY INTERESTING question - To what extent did your significant figure make a positive contribution to their times? For Speer, I would argue he made both a positive and negative contribution through his work as armaments minister. Also I would say his work in architecture and also discrimination against the Jews (anti-semitic policies) were both positive and negative too. I will explain later but before I do I want to see what you think Adam. Was his work predominantly positive or negative or a mix of both? And anyone else contribute too in regards to your personality!
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: Mada438 on April 12, 2018, 09:47:46 pm
I'm so glad you brought up the Nuremberg Trials point as that was a key if not the key reason supporting that an individual must contribute to change in order to be significant. I want to pose another question to you guys to see how you would argue this VERY INTERESTING question - To what extent did your significant figure make a positive contribution to their times? For Speer, I would argue he made both a positive and negative contribution through his work as armaments minister. Also I would say his work in architecture and also discrimination against the Jews (anti-semitic policies) were both positive and negative too. I will explain later but before I do I want to see what you think Adam. Was his work predominantly positive or negative or a mix of both? And anyone else contribute too in regards to your personality!
Hmmmmmmmmm
Both positive and negative; but thats very subjective.
For example, if you were to ask a high ranking German Nazi abou Speers contributions to German armaments, they would say it was definitely positive as it allowed Germany to keep on fighting.
Whereas if you to ask anyone else, they might say it was negative, because it prolonged the war and forced the allies to keep fighting which had consequences for them.
In terms of domestic life, looking at Speers archietecual acomplishments and greater ambitions, it was definitely positive. I mean, the catheadral of light looks awesome!

His anti-semitism is not positive, i really cannot see how its making a positive contribution, unless you're looking at it from the Germans perspective where most of them were also anti-semitic so they would support this.

Keen to see what you come up with
Title: Re: Modern History Debate Thread
Post by: dancing phalanges on April 16, 2018, 08:43:45 pm
Hmmmmmmmmm
Both positive and negative; but thats very subjective.
For example, if you were to ask a high ranking German Nazi abou Speers contributions to German armaments, they would say it was definitely positive as it allowed Germany to keep on fighting.
Whereas if you to ask anyone else, they might say it was negative, because it prolonged the war and forced the allies to keep fighting which had consequences for them.
In terms of domestic life, looking at Speers archietecual acomplishments and greater ambitions, it was definitely positive. I mean, the catheadral of light looks awesome!

His anti-semitism is not positive, i really cannot see how its making a positive contribution, unless you're looking at it from the Germans perspective where most of them were also anti-semitic so they would support this.

Keen to see what you come up with

Whoops! So sorry I completely missed this! What I would argue is that the extent to which Speer's work is seen as positive/negative depends on the context in which it is viewed (as you have alluded to).

For instance, in the context of Nazi Germany, as you have said, his anti-Semitic work such as the clearance of Jew flats was positive as this sort of racism was accepted at the time, particularly by the higher ranking Nazis who he wished to impress. In contrast, in today's society as you said it would be seen as immoral.

If you think about his architectural work - in his time it was positive as it reinforced the Nazi party's dominance and permanence in its grand scale. Conversely, today his architecture is viewed as propaganda which helped fuel the Nazi effort (which is today seen as one of the great horrors of humanity).

With that in mind, do you believe that Speer's 20 year prison sentence was too lenient or justified given that if he didn't obey orders he may have risked his own life?