ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: boysenberry on December 23, 2009, 10:36:48 am
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From time to time we often hear in the media of a few teenagers/adolescents (young people) mucking around and stabbing themselves in night clubs from a fit of rage or uncontrollable behaviour caused by binge drinking. These incidences become increasingly noticeable during the Christmas/New Year's celebrations and the death tolls go on the rise. But how many people actually die from VCE? How many people choose to commit suicide due to a low ENTER score? Is this a common occurrence? When was the last time a student killed themselves because of this? I never hear about these deaths in Victoria (at least not from the news) but I've heard of students killing themselves for similar reasons in other countries. For example Japan, Taiwan and Korea all have high suicide rates associated with pushing students too hard. I think it's stupid to kill yourself because of this. Any thoughts on the matter?
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A few people die around here in the exam period (stress from exams + driving home). Driving half an hour or more to school before an exam is not healthy. Another died because he was late to exam, sped lost control and plowed into a tree.
Can't say I've heard of people dying because of low ENTER's though
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My sister knows of someone who committed suicide due to a low ENTER (but I don't know how low it was ) :(
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Short answer, quite a lot. Refer to the statistics in the book: "Surviving year 12"
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Laws around publishing suicides are very strict (gives people in similar situations ideas...) so its hard to know.
You'd have to think that if someone cared so much about VCE the ENTER wouldnt be that low.
One of the reasons more pathways into courses need to be paved. Would be quite a good topic to write an essay on. To get passionate about it all you have to do is picture yourself missing out on your first preference. Grrr.
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It's probably more the kids that are so fixed on getting perfect scores but fail to do so by like a small amount, that get very upset and feel as though their life is over (More likely if they 'dedicated their life to the VCE). As a result they could kill themselves...
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I know someone who got 99.90, missing out on like 0.5 of an aggregate, despite getting 4 50s and one 47 or something. (She got a very low score in English). Didn't commit suicide but was very depressed. Understandable though..
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I think doing badly in VCE may indirectly lead to suicide. Like your relationships with friends/families may worsen, you may start hanging out with the wrong crowd as a result and start doing drugs and stuff which eventually leads to your demise....
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I know someone who got 99.90, missing out on like 0.5 of an aggregate, despite getting 4 50s and one 47 or something. (She got a very low score in English). Didn't commit suicide but was very depressed. Understandable though..
Does it really matter though? You can get in any course already unless your talking about fame.
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I know someone who got 99.90, missing out on like 0.5 of an aggregate, despite getting 4 50s and one 47 or something. (She got a very low score in English). Didn't commit suicide but was very depressed. Understandable though..
Does it really matter though? You can get in any course already unless your talking about fame.
It does matter when it comes to competitive courses such as Medicine. Some unis provide some advantages to those getting 99.95 such as guaranteed entry to some Graduate degrees.
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I don't think those people care about the ability to get into any course - their sole objective is a 99.95.
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Does it annoy anyone how ppl that get, say for example, 99.90 yet are still pissed its not better.
If your not happy with it, i'll gladly take it. :D
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Not really lol, I can relate to it.
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But c'mon, the top .1% and ur still not happy.
....Although i guess if ur used to being the no.1 at every thing u do acedemically it could be a shock to find that someone out there is better than you.
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Does it annoy anyone how ppl that get, say for example, 99.90 yet are still pissed its not better.
If your not happy with it, i'll gladly take it. :D
+1000
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The point is that the student related here, as one of you said, literally put their whole lives into VCE. No matter if it's missing out on a 99.95, or a 49.95, everyone gets angry when they think they do not get something they deserve. This girl probably tried harder than any of the 99.95 students, but got pulled down probably because she stuffed the English exam up. I bet anyone can relate to situations where they believe they have tried enough to get say a 45 but end up getting something like 37. Especially when you miss out on something as big as a "perfect score" by a few aggregates.
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Still, I believe it's foolish to assume that effort exerted is proportional to results; hard work is merely a prerequisite IMO, it's not the deciding factor.
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lol, there was a guy at MGS this year who narrowly missed out on being the eight 99.95 by an aggregate of 0.1. He got 50 in Literature, Philosophy and Legal Studies, as well as a 49 in National Politics and two scaled scores of 48 in Methods and Chinese SL (he's 100% white btw). He wasn't upset per se, but he was going around saying that MGS had eight 99.95s rather than seven...
And I guess I agree with kyzoo. The sad reality is that the VCE system is just not "fair"; even if you're naturally the most talented, or the hardest working, if you screw up the exam you've screwed up VCE.
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that guy was a humanities genius >.<, if he did a uni extension instead of chinese he would have gotten 99.95. And 43 in methods scales up to 48??
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ahh well.....not as bad as 'the old days', ur whole score was derived from the end of year exam
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that guy was a humanities genius >.<, if he did a uni extension instead of chinese he would have gotten 99.95. And 43 in methods scales up to 48??
I was approximating. Around 47 for Methods then. :p
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that guy was a humanities genius >.<, if he did a uni extension instead of chinese he would have gotten 99.95. And 43 in methods scales up to 48??
about 44 - 45 i think..
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Higher. 40 goes to 45, and 45 goes to 48, so 43 is about 47ish. :)
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Eww I turned this into a "what does raw score X scale to?" thread.
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I bet anyone can relate to situations where they believe they have tried enough to get say a 45 but end up getting something like 37. Especially when you miss out on something as big as a "perfect score" by a few aggregates.
Lol this sounds like me with physics last year. At the start of the year I was like I want nothing less than 43 for physics and then I got a 39 and went WTF? The cruelest thing was that the first text message was my physics score.
But as for the title, I agree with the people saying, students who get some crap ENTER <50, usually don't care about VCE and most who get depressed are people who want perfect and get like a 99 or something. It's all relative to the person as I was personally aiming for something between 90 - 95 (mainly to say "I got over 90").
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Does it annoy anyone how ppl that get, say for example, 99.90 yet are still pissed its not better.
If your not happy with it, i'll gladly take it. :D
+9999999
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I just realised, this MGS guy EZ is refering to, he's the perfect example of how difficult it is to get 99.95 without a score scaled past 50.
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Hes the perfect example why English shouldnt have to be in your top 4 too. You should have to do an english study but not top 4 IMO. Its most likely the thing that will fuck me over.
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You'd have to think that if someone cared so much about VCE the ENTER wouldnt be that low.
but not everyone is equal in their mental abilities.
their best might be not enough.
what could be more frustrating?
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Hes the perfect example why English shouldnt have to be in your top 4 too. You should have to do an english study but not top 4 IMO. Its most likely the thing that will fuck me over.
Agree, but many others disagree. Can't remember where the relevant debate/thread is.
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Hes the perfect example why English shouldnt have to be in your top 4 too. You should have to do an english study but not top 4 IMO. Its most likely the thing that will fuck me over.
0.o he got 50 for Lit
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Hes the perfect example why English shouldnt have to be in your top 4 too. You should have to do an english study but not top 4 IMO. Its most likely the thing that will fuck me over.
0.o he got 50 for Lit
I knew that...
I must have seen someone before who got 2-3 49's 2 50's, a 48 and then a 43 for english. Its in someones sig. They only.. "only".. got 99.70.
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Hes the perfect example why English shouldnt have to be in your top 4 too. You should have to do an english study but not top 4 IMO. Its most likely the thing that will fuck me over.
0.o he got 50 for Lit
I knew that...
I must have seen someone before who got 2-3 49's 2 50's, a 48 and then a 43 for english. Its in someones sig. They only.. "only".. got 99.70.
The only way I can see this working is if they revamp the way scaling works. If this were to happen, humanities students wouldn't stand a chance against the onslaught of MHS kids with their quadruple 45+ scores in Methods/Spesh/Chemistry/Physics.
But yeah, it's a tired debate. Humanities students are generally going to be in favour of a top 4 English, and Maths/Science students are generally going to be against it. :p
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Haha I'm a Maths/Science student and I'm in favour of top 4 English.
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If English wasn't in the top 4, most students would end up getting higher aggregates, but this wouldn't mean that they would necessarily get a higher ENTER. If everybody got a higher aggregate, then the aggregate to get say a 90 may be higher than what it would have originally been.
So I'm going to say keep the original plan. But it does kind of suck when you beat your mates in the maths/science subjects, but because they did better in English they get a higher ENTER. We could force doing a maths into the curriculum to force everyone to do something they are weak at and maths is just as useful as English.
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Err, I'm in favour of top 4 English because if English wasn't forced on me I would have never learned how to appreciate a novel, or how to appreciate writing as an activity; I would have just hated writing for the rest of my life and doing English has prevented this.
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Err, I'm in favour of top 4 English because if English wasn't forced on me I would have never learned how to appreciate a novel, or how to appreciate writing as an activity; I would have just hated writing for the rest of my life and doing English has prevented this.
Doesn't work on everyone though. I still dislike most fiction, and did not gain any value from VCE English!
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Err, I'm in favour of top 4 English because if English wasn't forced on me I would have never learned how to appreciate a novel, or how to appreciate writing as an activity; I would have just hated writing for the rest of my life and doing English has prevented this.
English has the opposite effect on most people :P
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Back to the topic at hand, I think most people bounce back pretty well from not getting the score they wanted. After all, you know going into the VCE that it's entirely possible that it'll be easier/harder than you expect. If someone kills themselves after results come out, I'd say that chances are, there would be a lot more going on there. An otherwise happy student wouldn't kill themselves over a number, it could only be a contributing factor. That said, I could easily see how it could be the straw to break the camel's back, so to speak.
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Has anyone ever filed a law suit against the VCAA for harm suffered?
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Maybe those students entered some all-or-nothing gambling deal where they if they win (get higher than score X), they win everything, and if they lose, they lose everything.
Sorry if I'm being facetious and irrelevant :(, I can't help myself after reading Akagi yesterday.
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Maybe those students entered some all-or-nothing gambling deal where they if they win (get higher than score X), they win everything, and if they lose, they lose everything.
My friend bet $50 he would beat another student it terms of higher Study Score in Business Management. Hope he doesn't commit suicide. :(
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I think the number of suicides due to low ENTERs is less important than the number of students with depression due to (in part or whole) the stresses of the school system.
Personally, I think a system that didn't publish ranks and only gave raw marks would be luch better. There wouldn't be the same pressure to be the best, and students would actually know how accurate they were.
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I like how the bulk of this thread is irrelevant to the subject.
How about renaiming it?
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Err, I'm in favour of top 4 English because if English wasn't forced on me I would have never learned how to appreciate a novel, or how to appreciate writing as an activity; I would have just hated writing for the rest of my life and doing English has prevented this.
Doesn't work on everyone though. I still dislike most fiction, and did not gain any value from VCE English!
This didn't work on me either, I hate fiction and I got no value from VCE English.
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Err, I'm in favour of top 4 English because if English wasn't forced on me I would have never learned how to appreciate a novel, or how to appreciate writing as an activity; I would have just hated writing for the rest of my life and doing English has prevented this.
Doesn't work on everyone though. I still dislike most fiction, and did not gain any value from VCE English!
This didn't work on me either, I hate fiction and I got no value from VCE English.
Maybe English should be made to be more relevant. In all honesty after schooling you rarely have to write essays or respond to texts in essay form (maybe a review though). Also, do we really have to be THAT detailed when figuring out how the media is trying to use us? I would love some sort of English Oratory class, being decent at public speaking and speaking to strangers is always a handy skill to have and relates to a wide variety of careers.
On topic, as been said before, I doubt anyone would kill themselves JUST over their enter/atar. It's just the tip of the iceberg.
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I don't get it exactly
Like is it safe to assume those likely to suicide are those in the 80's-99.95? Like where it's SO much more competitive? And to "move up" is extremely difficult?
Because COME ON, you would be an absolute idiot if you cannot tell you will get an ENTER of 60 or below. Your SACS and coursework are a PERFECT indicator of your performance.
I know a dozen people who got <60 and all scored C's and D's with a one or two E's in SACS. To suicide over something that was decided after your SAC results is beyond me.
However for smart people who get perfect scores, I think they are the main ones to suicide because they are used to getting 100% in everything, so getting a 97 instead of a 99 is a hit in the gut
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- to ZachCharge: there's this series of club called ToastMasters where you can practice public speaking.
- to Nova: Maybe SAC scores of Cs, Ds, and Es indicate a low ENTER score, but when you get to the higher range of SAC scores, they don't mean very much. I was ranking 5-10 in SACs and I moved up to rank 2 after study scores were released, whereas a person in my class who was rank 2 in the cohort at the very least moved down to 10-20. Also I know several people who didn't achieve SAC prizes yet still acquired a 50.
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Having English is a mandatory top 4 does have its advantages though...it encourages people to try harder in English and therefore have a good foundation going into an English speaking society (good for future jobs too!). However, it's also unfair that the VCE system coerces you to feel thatbecause you're crap at English, you're crap overall.
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- to ZachCharge: there's this series of club called ToastMasters where you can practice public speaking.
Even so, my point was that VCE English isn't really relevant to a lot of people's lives.
Having English is a mandatory top 4 does have its advantages though...it encourages people to try harder in English and therefore have a good foundation going into an English speaking society (good for future jobs too!). However, it's also unfair that the VCE system coerces you to feel thatbecause you're crap at English, you're crap overall.
Isn't living in an English speaking country for 17ish years and doing English for at most 10 years (unless you're an immigrant) good enough foundation? Atm I don't really see how VCE English really can help you that much in the future (unless your job involves making a guide on writing structured VCE English essays for the exam or something lol).
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- to ZachCharge: there's this series of club called ToastMasters where you can practice public speaking.
Even so, my point was that VCE English isn't really relevant to a lot of people's lives.
Having English is a mandatory top 4 does have its advantages though...it encourages people to try harder in English and therefore have a good foundation going into an English speaking society (good for future jobs too!). However, it's also unfair that the VCE system coerces you to feel thatbecause you're crap at English, you're crap overall.
Isn't living in an English speaking country for 17ish years and doing English for at most 10 years (unless you're an immigrant) good enough foundation? Atm I don't really see how VCE English really can help you that much in the future (unless your job involves making a guide on writing structured VCE English essays for the exam or something lol).
lol
+1
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People can live in a foreign country for a decade and still be embarrassingly insuffucient in that country's language.
Here is proof - http://www.antimoon.com/other/myths-country.htm
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Although the following article does not list Education as an apparent reason, I did read once, and it would be common sense that for those who care about their education so much, it has led to suicide. I feel really bad seeing such a high figure, it's way higher than car crashes, and possibly even certain types of illness? :-[
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/japanese-suicides-top-30000-for-12th-year/story-e6frf7jo-1225813661819
Japanese suicides top 30,000 for 12th year
AFP From: AFP December 25, 2009 8:39PM
THE number of suicides in Japan exceeded 30,000 in 2009 for a 12th consecutive year, police said today.
A total of 30,181 people killed themselves between January and November, the National Police Agency said, despite government efforts including more counselling services to deter people from taking their own lives.
Japan has one of the world's highest suicide rates, behind only a group of former Soviet bloc countries, says the World Health Organization.
The number of suicides a year in Japan hit the 30,000 mark for the first time in 1998, when the world's second-largest economy was struggling with a number of corporate bankruptcies and soaring jobless rates.
Experts have warned more people may commit suicide as the economy has been hit severely by the global financial crisis
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I think the problem with VCE is that, unlike IB, the subjects are not homogenous and broad. There are simply too many subjects of varying difficulties which is IMO why scaling exists. To solve this problem there should be a revamp where there are only like 15 maximum subjects offered: IE: Maths, English, Sciences, LOTE's, Humanities etc-like in the IB. The way IB works is that it solves this problem by making people pick 3 at a Standard level and 3 at a Higher Level, which is very fair, so that good Maths students pick HL Maths and good English students pick HL English.
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I think the problem with VCE is that, unlike IB, the subjects are not homogenous and broad. There are simply too many subjects of varying difficulties which is IMO why scaling exists. To solve this problem there should be a revamp where there are only like 15 maximum subjects offered: IE: Maths, English, Sciences, LOTE's, Humanities etc-like in the IB. The way IB works is that it solves this problem by making people pick 3 at a Standard level and 3 at a Higher Level, which is very fair, so that good Maths students pick HL Maths and good English students pick HL English.
But it's the variety of the subjects offered by VCE that makes it different to IB. It's true that you say that there are varying difficulties between subjects, but how would you define "difficulty"? In my opinion subjects like history would be very difficult, whereas chemistry is not as difficult. VCE plays to each individual's strengths, be it arts or science. Despite what I have said though, it does suck for those people who do well in humanities but just miss out on a high 99 ATAR because their subjects do not scale over 50 :(
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I think the problem with VCE is that, unlike IB, the subjects are not homogenous and broad. There are simply too many subjects of varying difficulties which is IMO why scaling exists. To solve this problem there should be a revamp where there are only like 15 maximum subjects offered: IE: Maths, English, Sciences, LOTE's, Humanities etc-like in the IB. The way IB works is that it solves this problem by making people pick 3 at a Standard level and 3 at a Higher Level, which is very fair, so that good Maths students pick HL Maths and good English students pick HL English.
But it's the variety of the subjects offered by VCE that makes it different to IB. It's true that you say that there are varying difficulties between subjects, but how would you define "difficulty"? In my opinion subjects like history would be very difficult, whereas chemistry is not as difficult. VCE plays to each individual's strengths, be it arts or science. Despite what I have said though, it does suck for those people who do well in humanities but just miss out on a high 99 ATAR because their subjects do not scale over 50 :(
xD that reminds me of this guy from our school last year who would have got 99.95 if any one of his humanities subject scaled over 50 (Lit, Philosophy, National Politics)
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I think the problem with VCE is that, unlike IB, the subjects are not homogenous and broad. There are simply too many subjects of varying difficulties which is IMO why scaling exists. To solve this problem there should be a revamp where there are only like 15 maximum subjects offered: IE: Maths, English, Sciences, LOTE's, Humanities etc-like in the IB. The way IB works is that it solves this problem by making people pick 3 at a Standard level and 3 at a Higher Level, which is very fair, so that good Maths students pick HL Maths and good English students pick HL English.
But it's the variety of the subjects offered by VCE that makes it different to IB. It's true that you say that there are varying difficulties between subjects, but how would you define "difficulty"? In my opinion subjects like history would be very difficult, whereas chemistry is not as difficult. VCE plays to each individual's strengths, be it arts or science. Despite what I have said though, it does suck for those people who do well in humanities but just miss out on a high 99 ATAR because their subjects do not scale over 50 :(
xD that reminds me of this guy from our school last year who would have got 99.95 if any one of his humanities subject scaled over 50 (Lit, Philosophy, National Politics)
That would suck :( Ah well ATAR is only a number anyways...
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It's not even a number in effect - it's a Yes/No on whether you can get your 1st preference for most.
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It's not even a number in effect - it's a Yes/No on whether you can get your 1st preference for most.
Nahh, that is the UMAT...
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Well in effect our ATAR let's us into our course or it doesn't. It's not like your future degree increments in value the higher you go over the requirement. The only exception I can think of is if you manage to get a scholarship.
Edit: Before someone points it out, there would be considerable bragging rights in getting a score way higher than what your course requires, but this is a supplementary purpose of the ATAR. First and foremost, it's to get you into your course. Thus, it's a more a boolean than a number with regard to its impact on you as an individual.
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Bragging rights to a high ENTER/ATAR pretty much die in the first week of uni as well.
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Bragging rights to a high ENTER/ATAR pretty much die in the first week of uni as well.
Does it continue much in the form of uni marks? Although I suppose that might depend on the uni and course...
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Bragging rights to a high ENTER/ATAR pretty much die in the first week of uni as well.
Does it continue much in the form of uni marks? Although I suppose that might depend on the uni and course...
hm uni marks seem to revolve more around yesssss I passed that subject.
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That seems kinda redundant, given most students pass anyway...
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I remember a family friend whos genius son got 99.95, and the father was furious and asked where the other .05 was........
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I'm pretty sure I read that line as a joke facebook group one time...
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That seems kinda redundant, given most students pass anyway...
Don't be so sure lol...There are plenty of subs with significant fail rates
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I think the problem with VCE is that, unlike IB, the subjects are not homogenous and broad. There are simply too many subjects of varying difficulties which is IMO why scaling exists. To solve this problem there should be a revamp where there are only like 15 maximum subjects offered: IE: Maths, English, Sciences, LOTE's, Humanities etc-like in the IB. The way IB works is that it solves this problem by making people pick 3 at a Standard level and 3 at a Higher Level, which is very fair, so that good Maths students pick HL Maths and good English students pick HL English.
But it's the variety of the subjects offered by VCE that makes it different to IB. It's true that you say that there are varying difficulties between subjects, but how would you define "difficulty"? In my opinion subjects like history would be very difficult, whereas chemistry is not as difficult. VCE plays to each individual's strengths, be it arts or science. Despite what I have said though, it does suck for those people who do well in humanities but just miss out on a high 99 ATAR because their subjects do not scale over 50 :(
I know what you mean, however in IB Higher Level Geography is as difficult (in theory) as Higher Level Mathematics-they both are of Uni Standard. The problem in VCE is that some subjects are relatively easy and some very hard-even though they could all be of the same standard.
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I remember a family friend whos genius son got 99.95, and the father was furious and asked where the other .05 was........
lol....
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That seems kinda redundant, given most students pass anyway...
Don't be so sure lol...There are plenty of subs with significant fail rates
This is very much true. One of the accounting subjects I did last semester had a fail rate of something like 22%. Also, I think about 14% failed Japanese 3 last semester. I don't even want to consider what the fail rates would be for hard stuff like law or engineering ">.>