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VCE Stuff => VCE Science => VCE Mathematics/Science/Technology => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE Chemistry => Topic started by: VeryCrazyEdu. on May 15, 2010, 08:42:01 pm

Title: pen on exam??
Post by: VeryCrazyEdu. on May 15, 2010, 08:42:01 pm
Apparently this year they are making the change to mark the exams electronically....I went onto the vcaa website and they altered one of the exams to the new format (kinda like the gat with the box around the page etc.) EXCEPT it says before you download it that you must write in blue or black pen...

does this mean we have to on the exam?? or can we just use 2b pencil :)
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on May 15, 2010, 08:57:01 pm
The GAT had orange around it last year. There is no way they can mark short answer electronically.

I want to use pencil!
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: AzureBlue on May 15, 2010, 08:58:04 pm
I thought you had to use pen on all VCE exams...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on May 15, 2010, 08:58:35 pm
I know you can use pencil in maths...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: AzureBlue on May 15, 2010, 08:59:30 pm
I know you can use pencil in maths...
Really? That's great, right now I'm getting used to doing maths (minus the diagrams) in pen ;)
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: minilunchbox on May 15, 2010, 09:14:21 pm
The GAT had orange around it last year. There is no way they can mark short answer electronically.

I want to use pencil!

Apparently the short answer (for chem, at least) are going to be scanned or something onto a computer, but they're still going to be marked by people. It just means you can't write on the margins/sides of the paper.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on May 15, 2010, 09:20:22 pm
I thought they already made copies of your paper...

How else does more than one examiner mark it then?
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: VeryCrazyEdu. on May 15, 2010, 09:23:04 pm
okay so you think we will still be able to use pencil :S because this link says "advised to use black or blue pen" http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/exams/examcovers/2010examindex.html

aarrghh
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on May 15, 2010, 09:27:38 pm
seriously, what are they going to do.  be little bitches and say:

'no i'm not marking the paper.  the writing is perfectly clear and the answers look very detailed and comprehensive, but i'm not marking it."
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: VeryCrazyEdu. on May 15, 2010, 09:30:19 pm
haha its vcaa so quite possibly...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on May 15, 2010, 09:37:00 pm
Consider the fact that if you write in pen it is more likely to transfer when scanning. Also consider the markers. After a long day teaching or whatever, they are marking the papers (most likely at night) and really only want straight answers. Writing in pencil means they have to strain their eyes as well as scrutinize your paper more! (YOU DONT WANT THIS!!!)

yeah as much as this ISN'T our problem in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM we have to realize that they are human to.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Akirus on May 15, 2010, 10:07:35 pm
What happens in the event you want to change your answer?
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on May 15, 2010, 10:13:25 pm
Cross it out?? Then if it gets real messy, place a number like 1 next to the scribble or the question, and then the proper working out in another space with the same number to show that is where the working is. This is the same method as to be used in English as I'm told by the seniors.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Akirus on May 15, 2010, 10:17:49 pm
I see... they could just remove the dilemma altogether by allowing pencil, what's the difference?

Not that I care, just curious.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on May 15, 2010, 10:21:29 pm
As I *just* said, some people may not press hard enough for whatever reason and thus it may incur ambiguities in the marking propping up debates of whether: "he meant this or that". With pen, there is no question.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Akirus on May 15, 2010, 10:41:46 pm
Actually, all you did was imply that... ah, too tired to bother.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Mao on May 16, 2010, 02:14:44 am
Get used to answering in pen. If you want to use pencil and constantly change your mind about what you are trying to say, chances are you don't really know what you are doing and won't get the mark anyways.

In general, use your head, formulate your answer before you write it down. It's not that hard.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: AzureBlue on May 16, 2010, 11:37:43 am
What happens in the event you want to change your answer?
No white-out is allowed in VCE exams?
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: akira88 on May 16, 2010, 11:53:00 am
What happens in the event you want to change your answer?
No white-out is allowed in VCE exams?
Scribbling it out is the only option!
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: kenhung123 on May 16, 2010, 12:45:14 pm
No white outs:
1. Waste of time
2. Sometimes end up even more messy
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Gloamglozer on May 16, 2010, 01:09:55 pm
What happens in the event you want to change your answer?
No white-out is allowed in VCE exams?
Scribbling it out is the only option!

That is correct.  Don't scribble it out though, just a line through what you think is incorrect shall suffice.  Scribbling it out makes it messy.

No white outs:
1. Waste of time
2. Sometimes end up even more messy

And apparently you can also "cheat" with white out.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: m@tty on May 16, 2010, 03:40:48 pm
What happens in the event you want to change your answer?
No white-out is allowed in VCE exams?
Scribbling it out is the only option!

That is correct.  Don't scribble it out though, just a line through what you think is incorrect shall suffice.  Scribbling it out makes it messy.


Also if the examiner is in a very nice mood they may award a mark for the crossed out answer, if it was correct. So don't scribble out. :P
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Blakhitman on May 16, 2010, 03:47:52 pm
What happens in the event you want to change your answer?
No white-out is allowed in VCE exams?
Scribbling it out is the only option!

That is correct.  Don't scribble it out though, just a line through what you think is incorrect shall suffice.  Scribbling it out makes it messy.


Also if the examiner is in a very nice mood they may award a mark for the crossed out answer, if it was correct. So don't scribble out. :P

Doubt it lol.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: m@tty on May 16, 2010, 04:01:08 pm
If they've had a batch of terrible exams they may begin trying to squeeze marks in where they can... And some examiners would just endeavour to award marks wherever they can... It's not likely, but still possible..
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: ninwa on May 16, 2010, 04:04:59 pm
Also if the examiner is in a very nice mood they may award a mark for the crossed out answer, if it was correct. So don't scribble out. :P

Happened to me for a mid-semester test. I know it's uni not VCE, but you never know...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Blakhitman on May 16, 2010, 04:26:30 pm
well we can always cross out an answer if we use pencil.

I just don't like using pen ><.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: iNerd on May 16, 2010, 04:30:32 pm
well we can always cross out an answer if we use pencil.

I just don't like using pen ><.
i agree. i DESPISE pen.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on May 16, 2010, 04:33:54 pm
People are making a mountain out of a molehill.  Using pen builds your confidence. Havign pencil is a psychological crutch so you tell yourself o if i make a mistake. Bah, just use pen, you will subconsciously be telling yourself you won't make mistakes. Its better for you.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: cameron_15 on May 16, 2010, 04:38:58 pm
Unit 4 bio examiners report, don't think they seemed to mind.

"Students are strongly recommended to complete Section B in pen, as responses in pencil are often difficult to read and
interpret. It is most pleasing to report that the minimal usage of pencil in Section B has continued. This improved the
clarity of the writing and consequently the ease of marking. It is important to note that if a student starts writing in
pencil and then remembers the instruction, there is no need to go over the answers in pen."

however, i'd still not risk it. just write neatly in pen.


Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on May 16, 2010, 04:44:10 pm
In fairness to the opposition, the only thing you will be calculating in Bio is how many marks you will lose if you don't do question X and Y :P

I understand people are worried about screwing up calculations, hey, everyone does, but its a matter of stopping or a sec and thinking things through.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: chem-nerd on May 16, 2010, 09:56:00 pm
If they've had a batch of terrible exams they may begin trying to squeeze marks in where they can... And some examiners would just endeavour to award marks wherever they can... It's not likely, but still possible..

this -> It's not likely

there's a marking scheme for a reason and the examiners are trained to be neither nice or nasty but consistent.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: m@tty on May 16, 2010, 10:01:37 pm
Haha, I know it is very unlikely, but surely there has been and will be people who have been given marks for what has been lightly crossed out. And I would think many examiners give students the benefit of the doubt...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on May 16, 2010, 10:06:22 pm
If they've had a batch of terrible exams they may begin trying to squeeze marks in where they can... And some examiners would just endeavour to award marks wherever they can... It's not likely, but still possible..

this -> It's not likely

there's a marking scheme for a reason and the examiners are trained to be neither nice or nasty but consistent.

There is a marking scheme???????????????????????? AHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry. No. They make it up as they go. Ask any examiner who is honest. They will have the broad framework, but the marking scheme is so bloody variable, you might as well not have one. This of course is referring to the math/science area.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: chem-nerd on May 16, 2010, 10:13:58 pm
If they've had a batch of terrible exams they may begin trying to squeeze marks in where they can... And some examiners would just endeavour to award marks wherever they can... It's not likely, but still possible..


this -> It's not likely

there's a marking scheme for a reason and the examiners are trained to be neither nice or nasty but consistent.

There is a marking scheme???????????????????????? AHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry. No. They make it up as they go. Ask any examiner who is honest. They will have the broad framework, but the marking scheme is so bloody variable, you might as well not have one. This of course is referring to the math/science area.

huh? seriously?
the marking scheme is actually pretty specific about what must be sighted in order to award each mark. Whilst there may be a range of alternatives for particular questions it's very clear cut as to what will and won't be awarded a mark
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Potter on May 16, 2010, 10:22:07 pm
If they've had a batch of terrible exams they may begin trying to squeeze marks in where they can... And some examiners would just endeavour to award marks wherever they can... It's not likely, but still possible..

this -> It's not likely

there's a marking scheme for a reason and the examiners are trained to be neither nice or nasty but consistent.

There is a marking scheme???????????????????????? AHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry. No. They make it up as they go. Ask any examiner who is honest. They will have the broad framework, but the marking scheme is so bloody variable, you might as well not have one. This of course is referring to the math/science area.

I'm pretty sure they stick to the criteria.. Especially since the exams are marked twice these days.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Stroodle on May 16, 2010, 10:39:20 pm
If they've had a batch of terrible exams they may begin trying to squeeze marks in where they can... And some examiners would just endeavour to award marks wherever they can... It's not likely, but still possible..

this -> It's not likely

there's a marking scheme for a reason and the examiners are trained to be neither nice or nasty but consistent.

There is a marking scheme???????????????????????? AHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm sorry. No. They make it up as they go. Ask any examiner who is honest. They will have the broad framework, but the marking scheme is so bloody variable, you might as well not have one. This of course is referring to the math/science area.

I'm pretty sure they stick to the criteria.. Especially since the exams are marked twice these days.

Yeah, apparently if there is a discrepancy of more than a couple of marks between the two, they're marked a third time. If it keeps happening to one examiner, they're investigated, and often beaten with a cricket bat.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: chem-nerd on May 19, 2010, 01:36:46 pm
back to the OT

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/correspondence/notices/2010/64.html
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Blakhitman on May 19, 2010, 04:15:38 pm
It says or pencil on that page, but then when you click on sample papers, under the ones with online assessment it doesn't mention pencil?

I better just get used to using pen then, probably the best option.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: iffets12345 on May 19, 2010, 10:51:06 pm
There is a bloody marking scheme! Why else would teachers go on conferences for their VCE subjects etc, especially if they are assesors? Obviously some people are slack and don't follow it, BUT THERE IS A SCHEME.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: kenhung123 on May 19, 2010, 11:15:02 pm
back to the OT

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/correspondence/notices/2010/64.html

Hmm it says you can use pencil, but on the specific exams says only blue or black pen
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on June 01, 2010, 11:55:14 am
Anyone going to use pencil?  I haven't written in pen for yonks, it feels weird...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: naved_s9994 on June 01, 2010, 02:13:11 pm

No way! Ive practiced the trials with Pen becuase of the new rules. No risk taking for me :P

Anyone going to use pencil?  I haven't written in pen for yonks, it feels weird...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on June 01, 2010, 02:50:08 pm
Maybe I'll just press down hard...?

But then it won't rub out well, so maybe just use pen haha.  I'll probably decide on the day.

I seriously doubt there will be a problem.  If my shit piece $59 printer/scanner from Harvey Norman can pick up pencil, then I'm sure VCAA's high tech copying apparatus will have no problems with it. :P

And if it was a major issue, I'm sure they would make a much bigger deal about it than what they currently do...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: kyzoo on June 01, 2010, 03:44:45 pm
Err today in the Physics SAC I drew the signal graph the wrong way (meant to be reflected about x-axis) and if it had been a pen only SAC it would have been really messy
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: kenhung123 on June 01, 2010, 04:13:59 pm
I think theres nothing wrong with pencil/pacer because the only worry is that some people write messier with pencil and its not as clear when they scan it so they prefer pen I guess. If you write ok im pretty sure its fine
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on June 01, 2010, 04:46:47 pm
I've thought about this.

Just get a pilot friction ball pen (or equivalent). It is a pen you can rub out like a pencil. And you can use the rubber indefinitely.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on June 01, 2010, 04:56:53 pm
I wrote my practise SAC in one of those pens for English, and my teacher tried to photocopy it so I could show it to my tutor, and it wouldn't copy clear at all. :(

I've thought about using them, but I'm scared that it wont copy.  Then again, I suppose I am using pen, so it's not my fault haha.  They would have to go and check my paper manually...

I had one and gave it away.  I guess i'll go buy a couple of them on Thursday...
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on June 01, 2010, 05:02:59 pm
Ahh see this is what I was thinking as well. It's their problem, not ours.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on June 01, 2010, 05:06:01 pm
^haha, we are going to ruin everything for VCE 11'ers.  VCAA will make them use gay ass BIC pens next year... :P
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: kenhung123 on June 01, 2010, 05:16:42 pm
I wouldn't risk it though...by any chance its just a crappy scanner?
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: naved_s9994 on June 01, 2010, 06:13:58 pm
It's not like they'll THROW your exam out if they can't read it LOL...
Probs just mark it by hand anyway..

Who knows though Andrew?
Most logically, yes your right. But then again, when past students circled all their answers on the multiple choice section
of the exam paper, and didn't circle you answers on that actual sheet, in the past they'd get a BIG ZERO.

Not worth the "risk" at all.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on June 01, 2010, 06:20:46 pm
Haha yes, that settles it.  I'm using pencil :P
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: m@tty on June 01, 2010, 06:28:59 pm
It's not like they'll THROW your exam out if they can't read it LOL...
Probs just mark it by hand anyway..

No, they'll just scan it. And if they can't read that then the next move is theirs. They have no requirement to fetch your exam and mark it separately. I don't know how far they can even take marking by hand either. How would they decide which exams are worth looking into? It would cause a lot of unnecessary extra work. Many people will leave many questions blank, so if the examiners try and check up on everybody possibly mis-scanned paper there is a lot of double handling. Also, if some student's papers are marked by hand, what of students who think they may have been disadvantaged by the online marking. They could argue that they were discriminated against because their paper was not sighted by an examiner. Where can VCAA draw the line?
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: stonecold on June 01, 2010, 07:22:59 pm
this thread can be closed now :P
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on June 01, 2010, 07:54:03 pm
It's not like they'll THROW your exam out if they can't read it LOL...
Probs just mark it by hand anyway..

No, they'll just scan it. And if they can't read that then the next move is theirs. They have no requirement to fetch your exam and mark it separately. I don't know how far they can even take marking by hand either. How would they decide which exams are worth looking into? It would cause a lot of unnecessary extra work. Many people will leave many questions blank, so if the examiners try and check up on everybody possibly mis-scanned paper there is a lot of double handling. Also, if some student's papers are marked by hand, what of students who think they may have been disadvantaged by the online marking. They could argue that they were discriminated against because their paper was not sighted by an examiner. Where can VCAA draw the line?

pfft, people will argue anything to get extra marks. Obviously there will be some who in any subject will have to be done by hand because of AWFUL handwriting and such. Arguing discrimination? wow. I agree with Stonecold.

this thread can be closed now :P
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: m@tty on June 01, 2010, 07:58:12 pm
It's not like they'll THROW your exam out if they can't read it LOL...
Probs just mark it by hand anyway..

No, they'll just scan it. And if they can't read that then the next move is theirs. They have no requirement to fetch your exam and mark it separately. I don't know how far they can even take marking by hand either. How would they decide which exams are worth looking into? It would cause a lot of unnecessary extra work. Many people will leave many questions blank, so if the examiners try and check up on everybody possibly mis-scanned paper there is a lot of double handling. Also, if some student's papers are marked by hand, what of students who think they may have been disadvantaged by the online marking. They could argue that they were discriminated against because their paper was not sighted by an examiner. Where can VCAA draw the line?

The cover this year says section B use pen or pencil..
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vcaa/vce/exams/examcovers/June_2010_covers/2010chem1-cover.pdf


I have known that from the start..

It doesn't change anything about the potential for pencil scanning badly.

And...

Quote from: http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vce/exams/examcovers/2010examindex.html
Sutdents should only write in blue or black pen.

...

Everything still stands. Unchanged.

Pencil can still smudge or be badly scanned...

Do what you want. Remember though that they have advised you write in nothing other than blue or black pen.

EDIT: @Martoman All I meant was that it was unlikely that exams will be hand-marked because they were written in pencil.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on June 01, 2010, 08:00:06 pm
I still stand by my claim that people should just be more confident in themselves.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: olly_s15 on June 01, 2010, 08:12:49 pm
I still stand by my claim that people should just be more confident in themselves.

your posts are so compelling
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: olly_s15 on June 01, 2010, 09:53:38 pm
I still stand by my claim that people should just be more confident in themselves.

your posts are so compelling

I can't tell if sarcastic or not :S??

haha it really isn't
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: shinny on June 01, 2010, 10:00:44 pm
I still stand by my claim that people should just be more confident in themselves.

your posts are so compelling

I can't tell if sarcastic or not :S??

haha it really isn't

Agreed. People are asking and arguing over the most trivial things in exam time =S It's not like the rest of us check VCAA's official answers to things; we're just using our common sense and telling it back to you guys. Instead, just use your's and trust it. The world gets far more ambiguous than VCE does.
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: olly_s15 on June 01, 2010, 10:18:24 pm
LOL shinny :P we're all going nuts man.. chem's hard!

i vote we all use pencil to annoy VCAA
Title: Re: pen on exam??
Post by: Martoman on June 01, 2010, 10:52:34 pm
I still stand by my claim that people should just be more confident in themselves.

your posts are so compelling

I thought it was wry sarcasm as well. I guess i'll take it as a compliment then.  :smitten: