ATAR Notes: Forum

VCE Stuff => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE English Studies => Topic started by: Lesliel1 on August 12, 2010, 08:05:07 pm

Title: English or English Language?
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 12, 2010, 08:05:07 pm
hey,
I am stuck between the decisions of english language and normal english.
I was wondering if someone could give me the pros and cons of the subjects and tell me which one is better.
because i heard from some people that english language is way better. :)

 thanks :P
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: appianway on August 12, 2010, 08:17:28 pm
I've done/do both, so here it is...

English:

It's less structured, and less competitive. That said, the scores aren't scaled up. You do three areas of study - 'reading and responding', which is a text study, 'creating and presenting', in which you draw on the ideas presented in a context and 'language analysis', in which you look at how authors use language to persuade their audiences. You have a little more scope for your own interpreations (although this can be done in English Language if you put in the effort). There's a speech as an oral, but the rest of the SACs/exams are essays, so be prepared.

English Language:

Unit 1/2's a bludge from what I've heard, but I skipped it so I can't vouch for it. Unit 3 looks at how language represents identity and how it manipulates meaning - it's an essay writing unit, and you need to go out and research your own examples. Unit 4 is VERY dry - you look at how specific linguistic features facilitate conversations and deliver the meaning of written texts. It's interesting, but there's a lot of definitions.

I'm not sure what's easier to do well in - I think for either, if you're a good student, you can walk in and get anywhere between 40 and 50. But that's just my view.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Mulan on August 12, 2010, 09:18:18 pm
english langauge is like learning a different language..in english (:
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 13, 2010, 04:04:07 pm
so.. which one do you guys think is easier? xD
haha
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: brightsky on August 13, 2010, 06:05:28 pm
Generally, for a maths/science-orientated person, English Language is easier, as it focuses more on the mechanics of English and how they work - so very memorisation-based. Also, essay-writing does not take up as much of the course as does English, like 1/3 of the exam is short answer questions. Conversely, English is very much based on essay-writing and exploring subjective concepts rather than objective facts. Because of this, it can get very complicated, unlike EL (and a lot of the VCE science/maths subjects) where the info is provided for you.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 13, 2010, 06:10:09 pm
^ Yep, English Language is more suited to Sciencey students or people who aren't as good at Essays.
BUT, i went in thinking 'oh it's all memory based, thats so good, i can do so well,bahblah' but not exactly, unit 3 is extremely opened ended and so much to know, and need to research all sorts of things that it's like a humanities-type essay suject and so i, personally, will not be doing well at all xD
... but unit 4 is very theory and short answers, so its very good if you know how to answer those sort of questions, which at the moment look quite strange and i'm not even sure i can answer them all that well either..

Still, EL > English.
I regret not working hard from the beginning for it, but do this and you should be fine. It's more 'oh i studied and it showed' rather then english's more luck on a topic you can write about (if your are good at english then this doesnt matter)
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 13, 2010, 06:10:45 pm
so.. which one do you guys think is easier? xD
haha
This may vary between people, but the general consensus is that English is easier, and the main population do it - English Language is difficult in that it's quite complex, like learning another language (linguistics). Literature is also difficult in that it explores much more deep, complex ideas than English. I'm trying EL next year - if it is not enjoyable, I'll go to English. Lit would be interesting too, but I would prefer to do the 1/2 if I was to do the 3/4.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 13, 2010, 06:11:43 pm
^ Yep, English Language is more suited to Sciencey students or people who aren't as good at Essays.
Nope, that's not right - apparently EL is for people who are strong at English and are very intellectually capable... and remember, you have to write essays too.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: brightsky on August 13, 2010, 06:13:39 pm
Quote
Literature is also difficult in that it explores much more deep, complex ideas than English.

Really? My impression of Lit is that it's based on close, critical analysis of text rather than "deep, complex", philosophical ideas.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 13, 2010, 06:15:01 pm
^ Yep, English Language is more suited to Sciencey students or people who aren't as good at Essays.
Nope, that's not right - apparently EL is for people who are strong at English and are very intellectually capable... and remember, you have to write essays too.

i do english language >_> and it's definitely more suited to science students without question!
ha, and no i'm not strong at english at all, i dropped english because i have an inability to write an essay and i made the right decision with englang even if my poor english skills bring me slightly down.
you write one essay in the exam and some throughout unit 3 where they are more factual, theory based humanities-type essays
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 13, 2010, 06:15:35 pm
Quote
Literature is also difficult in that it explores much more deep, complex ideas than English.
Really? My impression of Lit is that it's based on close, critical analysis of text rather than "deep, complex", philosophical ideas.
And English Language and Lit are definitely much more competitive than the English cohort - I heard that you go into the deep ideas in Lit, and that could be enjoyable; but probably ask someone who's done it, that's just what I heard from teachers.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 13, 2010, 06:16:58 pm
i do english language >_> and it's definitely more suited to science students without question!
ha, and no i'm not strong at english at all, i dropped english because i have an inability to write an essay and i made the right decision with englang even if my poor english skills bring me slightly down.
you write one essay in the exam and unit 3 is a more factual, theory based humanities-type essay.
Yeah, probably because they would be more "analytical" and "complex-thinking" but English Language is definitely not "the easy way out" for people who are relatively bad at English but enjoy the sciences, and it's more competitive too. It depends on what you're interested in, really - if Linguistics is your thing, try it out (the papers look quite... interesting) ;)
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 13, 2010, 06:21:12 pm
i do english language >_> and it's definitely more suited to science students without question!
ha, and no i'm not strong at english at all, i dropped english because i have an inability to write an essay and i made the right decision with englang even if my poor english skills bring me slightly down.
you write one essay in the exam and unit 3 is a more factual, theory based humanities-type essay.
Yeah, probably because they would be more "analytical" and "complex-thinking" but English Language is definitely not "the easy way out" for people who are relatively bad at English but enjoy the sciences, and it's more competitive too. It depends on what you're interested in, really - if Linguistics is your thing, try it out (the papers look quite... interesting) ;)

yeah, it's not exactly an easy way out - depends on the person.
though, if i had worked hard from the start, then it would have been honestly been a little bit of an 'easy way out' because i would have to put in so much more work in english to get the same score i probably will probably get in englang. though, if englang wasn't an option, i would be doing lit :p

hmm it usually has similar cutoff ranges to english as a guide, and is marked up 2 whereas english is marked down 1, so the cohort your against is favourable. but yes still said to be 'more competitive' as everyone does english.
Title: HELP...
Post by: bar0029 on August 13, 2010, 06:29:21 pm
Okay, well currently I am in year 11 studying the following subjects:
English 1.2
Biology 3.4
Methods 3.4
Advanced Maths 1.2
Chemistry 1.2
Physics 1.2

I thought the above information is relevant as it may help you, help me decide on whether to do:
ENGLISH or ENGLISH LANGUAGE
and also if I do English language will i be disadvantaged? Although I am more than willing to study the Unit 1&2 course over the summer holidays...
Alongside this, what exactly is on the course of English Language 3&4?


Whoever helps me, i love you, because this is the hardest decision for me thus far haha  :)
Title: Re: HELP...
Post by: 98.40_for_sure on August 13, 2010, 10:06:14 pm
I'd be leaning towards english... some of my friends switched englishes without doing 1/2 and they're struggling hard
That's not to say you will... you're obviously more committed if you're gonna self teach 1/2.
My personal opinion would be english language is more fun... normal english is unbearably boring. Maybe get a hold of your friends EL 1/2 book and have a flick through it (if you haven't already done so)
If you HATE essays like i do... go for EL
Title: Re: HELP...
Post by: bar0029 on August 14, 2010, 08:03:15 am
Thankyou so much :)
Title: Re: HELP...
Post by: brightsky on August 14, 2010, 02:35:30 pm
Have a look at the paper from last year for English Language and English respectively. It may help you decide which subject best interests you.

http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vcaa/vce/studies/englishlanguage/pastexams/2009/2009englang-w-cpyrgt.pdf
http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/vcaa/vce/studies/english/pastexams/2009/2009english-w-cpyrgt.pdf

The requirements for both are really different. IMO, the English you choose should be based on your interests. If English Language is your kind of subject, then catching up would not be an issue. (appianway didn't do 1/2 and still came out with a 45). However, if you like writing essays about textual ideas, then English would obviously be the best choice.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: EvangelionZeta on August 18, 2010, 11:35:46 pm
Quote
Literature is also difficult in that it explores much more deep, complex ideas than English.

Really? My impression of Lit is that it's based on close, critical analysis of text rather than "deep, complex", philosophical ideas.

It's more like, for your "close, critical analysis" to really work, you need some sort of ability to grasp "deep, complex" philosophical ideas.  There's a reason why they don't put stuff like Hamlet and King Lear on the English course anymore.  :p
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Hutchoo on August 18, 2010, 11:56:35 pm
Generally, for a maths/science-orientated person, English Language is easier, as it focuses more on the mechanics of English and how they work - so very memorisation-based. Also, essay-writing does not take up as much of the course as does English, like 1/3 of the exam is short answer questions. Conversely, English is very much based on essay-writing and exploring subjective concepts rather than objective facts. Because of this, it can get very complicated, unlike EL (and a lot of the VCE science/maths subjects) where the info is provided for you.

This may be a bit off-topic, but my teacher recommenced me for Lit.. I refused and said that I would do English language, so I chose that..
Now- I'm a 'scientific' person.. so i've chosen subjects that work with my sciencey brain :P bio,chem,physics.. My friends have been suggesting that im going to overload with science and go crazy.

Is that true 0.o :F
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: TrueTears on August 18, 2010, 11:59:06 pm
Don't think you'll turn crazy unless you work yourself to the extreme and burn out.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Mr Edwards on August 19, 2010, 12:29:03 am
can you do lit, english and english language simultaneously in vce?
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 19, 2010, 04:23:22 am
can you do lit, english and english language simultaneously in vce?

yes but only 2 count in top four.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 19, 2010, 07:12:58 am
can you do lit, english and english language simultaneously in vce?
Yes, probably, but also depends on your school's timetabling.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Hutchoo on August 19, 2010, 11:19:59 am
Someone I know is doing 3 Englishes... Don't know why you'd want to.. Math and science = best (Not bias at all)
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 19, 2010, 08:34:16 pm
omg same, im pretty much in the same situation as you. HAHA cuz like all my subjects are all related to science and i am probs doing english language. im in yr 11 next year and im going to do 2 3/4s and then my teacher was like maybe you should only do one 3/4 and maybe do a non-science related subject to have a rest. and my friends were like you're gonna go over board with science and stuff :S
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Hutchoo on August 19, 2010, 09:01:28 pm
7 subjects? Wut.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 19, 2010, 09:08:01 pm
I'm pretty set on doing 7 subjects altogether. I was told to choose two 3/4s in year 11 as five 3/4s + UMEP in the same year may be survivable, but a bit of an overload. Yay for science! :)
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 19, 2010, 09:44:10 pm
yea, i noe its kinda stupid doing 7 subjects but i think it will be less stress for yr 12. omg im so torn , i dunno whether to do 2 3/4s cuz some ppl say it rly hard and some say it is managable and yea.. i posted this question b4
LOL.. anyways i am going off topic LOLL xD hahahah
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: 8039 on August 19, 2010, 09:52:22 pm
7 subjects? Wut.

Some people can actually handle that. Shocking isn't it?
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 19, 2010, 10:19:41 pm
ummm.. 8039? LOL never called someone by number b4 hahahah
ye, was that sarcasm? because i am still kinda reconsidering doing 2 3/4s cuz im still not sure,
sorry for the people who see this and like im going off topic, i noe.. sorrryy xD
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: AzureBlue on August 19, 2010, 10:21:46 pm
ummm.. 8039? LOL never called someone by number b4 hahahah
ye, was that sarcasm? because i am still kinda reconsidering doing 2 3/4s cuz im still not sure,
sorry for the people who see this and like im going off topic, i noe.. sorrryy xD
If you are set on doing 7 subjects, unless you have done any 3/4s in year 10 or before, I'd highly recommend going 2 in year 11, 5 in year 12.
1 in year 11, 6 in year 12 is also a viable option but you have to be really dedicated in year 12 and make sure you know your 1/2s in year 11 back to front so year 12 won't be too hard to manage.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: 8039 on August 19, 2010, 11:15:48 pm
ummm.. 8039? LOL never called someone by number b4 hahahah
ye, was that sarcasm? because i am still kinda reconsidering doing 2 3/4s cuz im still not sure,
sorry for the people who see this and like im going off topic, i noe.. sorrryy xD

Nah it's possible. Especially over 2 years should be a piece of cake. Many people do 7 who aim for 99.95.

I'm doing 6 3/4s without year 11 including methods and chem and getting by. Wouldn't recommend my way tho.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: olly_s15 on August 19, 2010, 11:31:42 pm
If I could do VCE again then I would do 2 3/4 subjects in year 11. Was never offered the option though :(.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Hutchoo on August 20, 2010, 12:05:20 am
7 subjects? Wut.

Some people can actually handle that. Shocking isn't it?

Its not that people can't handle it, its just a waste of time.. (generally)
Just from what I think.. I'd prefer to spend more time on 5 subjects in year 12 + year 11 3/4 than to do a load of work that won't really count for anything.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: stonecold on August 20, 2010, 12:13:16 am
If I could do VCE again then I would do 2 3/4 subjects in year 11. Was never offered the option though :(.

+ 1.  This is like gold.  It gives you money in the bank going into year 12, taking loads of pressure off.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 20, 2010, 12:38:49 am
If I could do VCE again then I would do 2 3/4 subjects in year 11. Was never offered the option though :(.

+ 1.  This is like gold.  It gives you money in the bank going into year 12, taking loads of pressure off.

you have a 48 :( you have some pressure off too, i have zero.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 20, 2010, 06:37:17 pm
hey vexx,
i noticed on your 2011 thing at the bottom says "repeat english language"? does that mean you think it is really hard? :S
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 20, 2010, 07:17:26 pm
hey vexx,
i noticed on your 2011 thing at the bottom says "repeat english language"? does that mean you think it is really hard? :S

i didn't realise unit 3 was a research-based humanities purely essay topic, and so i knew the content really well, it's not that hard really but i did bad in all my essay assessments purely because i write like a textbook haha.
but my last sac apparently was extremely good (my teacher said) and much more structured but it was a written analysis so a bit different, though i've improved just won't get the score i'm aiming for which is 38+ and so my enter will suffer. i need more time to work on essays from the beginning.. but i may not repeat, it depends how everything goes, if i cant be bothered repeating etc.
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Lesliel1 on August 20, 2010, 08:21:55 pm
omg, i never knew english language was based on research? So it isnt just remebering words and analysing them? is it like history? i never knewww! D= i thought it was a little easier because people say it is a little bit sciencey and stuff. =S
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: Mr Edwards on August 20, 2010, 08:24:01 pm
can you do lit, english and english language simultaneously in vce?

yes but only 2 count in top four.

So, 2 must always count in your primary four if you're doing these three? Or is it that only 1 must go in the primary four but another one more can to if it's at least your fourth highest study score?
Title: Re: English Language vs. english !help!
Post by: vexx on August 20, 2010, 08:45:01 pm
omg, i never knew english language was based on research? So it isnt just remebering words and analysing them? is it like history? i never knewww! D= i thought it was a little easier because people say it is a little bit sciencey and stuff. =S

it's like a humanities unit 3 with some sciencey knowledge to incorporate in, and unit 4 is very technical and very much more sciencey. just unit 3 wow... ha
Title: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: yesyes123 on June 07, 2011, 05:44:47 pm
Which subject is easier?
Which subject is more intresting?

cheers
Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: dmanz on June 07, 2011, 05:53:45 pm
from my experience of english (yr10) is novel and theme based whereas englang is a more analytical subject

Pros Englang
-no novels -(does not technically mean not remembering quotes)
-no speeches
-shorter exam (2 hours)
-scaled up (+1 maybe?)
-less competition


Cons Englang
-difficult to find tutors etc
-makes you think outside the box into real world applications (can be difficult)
-learn heaps grammar




Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: CaptainAwesome on June 07, 2011, 06:08:03 pm
I heard that English Language is MORE competitive. But I could be wrong.

I do both subjects, and personally I prefer English Language, but I'm really into grammar and all that so that might just be me. I'd say that English Language is less subjective than English, as it is more 'sciencey'.

But don't choose a subject based on 'easiness', because remember if a subject is 'easy', chances are it'll be 'easy' for the rest of the state too.

Eng Lang gets scaled up by around about 1, I believe.

If you're a more sciencey person, English Language may be the way to go. If you are good at analysing texts and stuff like that, maybe choose English. But remember that one of them has to be in your top 4. Oh, and there's also Literature.
Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: lexitu on June 07, 2011, 06:13:24 pm
English is:
-More focused on abstract ideas (although Eng Lang is not totally devoid of these)
-Allows more room for creativity and has less structure
-Probably more focused on the human condition
-Similar but not the same as what you have done in earlier years. You should be confident in many aspects of the course.

Eng Lang:
-Will turn you into a grammar-conscious freak
-Will not be as daunting because the exam is shorter
-Focuses more on the science of language
-Probably has less available resources
-Requires less detailed attention to specific texts but may require more detailed knowledge of grammar/syntax/etc.

Both (may) have:
-A requirement to analyse language
-Oral presentations
-Essays
-The need to memorise things (memorisation of quotes in English is not hard nor pivotal)
-Meaning n real life

The scaling factor is effectively canceled out, in Eng Lang there is slight upscaling (and the reverse for English) near the median. In English you are up against the majority of the state, in Eng Lang you are competing with a smaller group and this is probably a tiny bit harder.

I would have to say both are very interesting with the difference resting on what you are curious about. But having said that, I have never studied Eng Lang (though I've had many conversations about it with friends) and I am now going to make a "switch" and study linguistics at university - they are both pretty interesting. As for what's easier that again depends...
Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: Ghost! on June 07, 2011, 06:49:14 pm
Quote
Eng Lang:
-Will turn you into a grammar-conscious freak

Truer words have never been spoken! Spelling and grammar errors drive the majority of EngLang students insane, myself included. Especially spelling, I feel like crying when I see 'alot' and 'definately' nowadays, a spelling error I was once very prone to committing.
Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: Keine on June 07, 2011, 08:49:24 pm
But the general idea we're taught in English language is that 'English is constantly changing due to many factors' and there is no country or dialect or variety of English that is spoken and is the 'Standard'
Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: ieatcrayons on June 08, 2011, 02:25:49 pm
You should also take into consideration the circumstances unique to your school. My school runs 3/4 and 1/2 english language combined, and it's also the first year of school (and teacher) offering the course, and thus it has been an absolute nightmare!
Title: Re: English language or Mainstream English??
Post by: appianway on June 08, 2011, 02:45:31 pm
I did both (language in year 11, english in year 12), and obtained similar raws in each.

Which one's easier? English is far more subjective, but I think that if you put the work in, it's easier to score well in English. Although English is subjective, much of VCE English is formulaic. English Language is more interesting than English in Unit 3, but I found Unit 4 incredibly dry.
Title: Re: English or English Language?
Post by: Tonychet2 on January 15, 2012, 01:07:04 am
english is easier because i cringe at the thought of having to learn shakespearean language
Title: Re: English or English Language?
Post by: schnappy on January 15, 2012, 04:19:58 pm
english is easier because i cringe at the thought of having to learn shakespearean language

Shakespeare isn't part of language... Shakespeare isn't really different to how we speak today, it just has a flare of elegance to it because it uses a slightly archaic lexicon and some non-standard constructions such as double negatives.

Aw shit, can't escape EL D:
Title: Re: English or English Language?
Post by: greenbeans on February 13, 2012, 09:39:55 am
Hey there! I did both in the same year and did reasonably well in both.
They are very different to one another but also complement each other well, so if you're even a wee bit interested in language, I would strongly suggest doing both!

If not, here goes my breakdown:

English:

If you are creative, you will find endless possiblities in the context (section B) part of the exam and SACs. A lot more time spent on perfecting structure and essay writing skills as opposed to English Language.

Be prepared to delve deeply into your texts, know them back to front. Personally I found going to book talks, watching videos to get background from the playwrights and authors was a great way of extension. English is great in that it allows you to explore issues and ideas of your texts deeply. There is no limit to the work you can put in, some students love that and rise to the challenge of it, whereas others are just looking for bare minimum standards to scrape by. Buttttt if you put your own spin on things and start LIKING English.. wholeheartedly throwing yourself into your workload..... start dreaming about the characters in your novels..... you will really be rewarded in the long run in terms of marks and how much you enjoy studying for English. So more enjoyment = wanting to write more essays = more practise = better student.

Learn to communicate well with your teacher, you will spend lots of time with them going over a million essays of yours. Without a doubt, mine was the most valuable resource in English. They know the requirements backwards and will give you honest feedback 100% of the time. Start liking them. You may not like the workload heaps, (who doesn't love language analysis!) but find avenues that interest you to make you want to study for it.  That works for every subject.

English Language:

Agree with the maths/science approach. It can be very, very dry but the way to like/succeed in the subject is by -again- finding ways of making the material INTERESTING. So watch videos, analyse different texts that you find more interesting than the ones in the study design, etc. You can basically learn the entire course from the study design, so it's not as trippy as the English course where they can basically throw anything at you.. but some may like that. Short answer questions are very different to English, and missing out on snippets of information can rob you of marks easily, whereas English they look to GIVE marks not TAKE AWAY marks. Also, 3 essays versus 1 is a way of looking at it, but you still need to write fluently in both English & Language. Having a keen interest in language already, whether it's LOTE, reading, creative writing, whatever... it can certainly be a huge advantage.

All in all, either are great to study. I put in heaps -HEAPS- more work in English and I got a 46, but I didn't enjoy Language nearly as much and got a 47. A much bigger cohort in English. In terms of scaling, English went up about 0.8 and I think Eng Lang went up 1 or 1.8.. tbh I can't really remember, but scaling shouldn't be the deciding factor. Hope this helps!  :D