ATAR Notes: Forum
Uni Stuff => Faculties => Health sciences => Topic started by: slothpomba on August 15, 2010, 10:46:10 pm
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Hey guys, i need to think about long and hard about my list of uni preferences before i submit them to VTAC. There are so many things im interested in, monash mbbs will obviously be my number 1 preference but im not sure if its the smartest idea to try get in via graduate entry and possibly be left with a science degree and no entry into graduate med.
Anyway, i like sciences but at the same time i like my humanities and such as well so im having a really hard time working out my VTAC preferences.
I was also thinking about medical research, which also very much so interests me but im not sure exactly how to go about it.
What degree would i have to undertake to be a researcher or something similar to that (like work at a university or an organisation like the walter and eliza hall institute or something akin to that.)
As far as i can see Monash has pharmaceutical science which may serve me well i guess.... or should i just take a science degree.... what after that... what postgrad options should i be looking at? I'm sure medical research isnt exclusively the domain of doctors or is it?
Also, how would the money be and what would the job prospects be? (i know this shouldn't be the sole factor for choosing any career and it isn't for me but its still important to consider)
Thanks for all the help, knowledge and insight guys and i doubt someone will be able to answer all my questions but even a little bit will help me out. Even opinions on it are welcome really.
~cheers, kingpomba
(sorry if this isnt very coherent im pretty tired, ill try fix it up later)
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In general, researchers all have PhDs, especially in the medical sciences - I've never a researcher without one.
Med research not isn't exclusively the domain for doctors.
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Hey guys, i need to think about long and hard about my list of uni preferences before i submit them to VTAC. There are so many things im interested in, monash mbbs will obviously be my number 1 preference but im not sure if its the smartest idea to try get in via graduate entry and possibly be left with a science degree and no entry into graduate med.
Anyway, i like sciences but at the same time i like my humanities and such as well so im having a really hard time working out my VTAC preferences.
I was also thinking about medical research, which also very much so interests me but im not sure exactly how to go about it.
What degree would i have to undertake to be a researcher or something similar to that (like work at a university or an organisation like the walter and eliza hall institute or something akin to that.)
As far as i can see Monash has pharmaceutical science which may serve me well i guess.... or should i just take a science degree.... what after that... what postgrad options should i be looking at? I'm sure medical research isnt exclusively the domain of doctors or is it?
Also, how would the money be and what would the job prospects be? (i know this shouldn't be the sole factor for choosing any career and it isn't for me but its still important to consider)
Thanks for all the help, knowledge and insight guys and i doubt someone will be able to answer all my questions but even a little bit will help me out. Even opinions on it are welcome really.
~cheers, kingpomba
(sorry if this isnt very coherent im pretty tired, ill try fix it up later)
Basically being a researcher is really shit. Im just taking it out there. Firstly, the pay isnt that high say for if you were to work for Melb Uni as a senior lecturer and researcher, you would probably get around 90k a year (in which by that time you will be around 40). You have to take lectures as well as do research and take honours students. You have to go find grants to fund your research, otherwise, you wont be able to research. You have to have a genuine interest in researching in your field (im guessing biology sciency stuff). Theres alot of fields in research but their all involve trying to get money and getting good students and etc. It really is getting grants to fund your research which is difficult and stressful.
If you still want to do medicine, you can
Do Melb science:
yr1 - do the umat and attempt non-standard entry
yr2 - do umat and the gamsat - attempt non standard entry
yr3 - do the gamsat if ur 2nd year was bad - go for graduate entry
if that fails
do an honours year - take the gamsat again - some unis give bonus marks for honours year
if that fails
do a Master of Science or PhD
I would consider stop attemping if you fail at honours year because it just means you arent up to the standard of a medical student anyhow.
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For medical research you'd do a more general science degree and major in something of interest then do post-grad research/honours in that field of study, for example, i majored in neuroscience and then did a honours in neuroscience (not sure exactly about the research degrees) before getting a job working at the royal melbourne hospital's neuroscience faculty, i would work there for a few years and then apply for a PhD program while working (money is quite poor while studying apparently).
medical research does seem quite interesting, and i can imagine it being especially good once you get into it, but the job (did work experience) was not for me, some people there were saying they have been there for many years and still love what they do, but i would get bored with writing up papers and repeating experiments to find results. though, i may actually really enjoy it, if i was able to do my own research (very expensive to do).
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Bachelor of science would get allow you to get a job as a researcher.. and basically they kinda push you into this pathway
biomed would also allow this
pharmaceutical science is more like drug companies and development of drugs and research in that type of area
if you do science... you do can do honours and then phd or masters
money i've heard that its not really great
0k for honours
20k/year for phd
and then after phd not sure but it won't be great i would say around 50-70k
job prospects for researcher would be good if you have the marks and motivation. highly recommended you do honours to do research so you need 70 avg in third year major. if you don't then you would probably just be technical assistant, doing all the crappy jobs like cleaning equipment and fixing them and maintenance...but yeah you gotta be proactive finding a job, talking to lab heads... taking those vacation scholarships etc..
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Bachelor of science would get allow you to get a job as a researcher.. and basically they kinda push you into this pathway
biomed would also allow this
pharmaceutical science is more like drug companies and development of drugs and research in that type of area
if you do science... you do can do honours and then phd or masters
money i've heard that its not really great
0k for honours
20k/year for phd
and then afterwards not sure but it won't be great i would say around 40k or 50k
job prospects for researcher would be good if you have the marks and motivation. highly recommended you do honours to do research so you need 70 avg in third year major. if you don't then you would probably just be technical assistant, doing all the crappy jobs like cleaning equipment and fixing them and maintenance...but yeah you gotta be proactive finding a job, talking to lab heads... taking those vacation scholarships etc..
the people i spoke all worked for at least 5 years before applying for PhD, and a lot were trying to get scholarships as otherwise it may be difficult to even pay the bills ;)
haha nah im sure you can survive on little amounts, just not preferable as honours graduate..
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yes you can do that
the people i talked to said that after you come to the end of honours.. their supervisors would actually push them to do phd and continue to do research for them...
some do work before they do phd like my demonstrator for virology worked at pfizer and csl before her phd
yep those scholarships are 20k/yr which is crap... thats why she is a demonstrator to get more money lol desperate...
and ive heard that you should do honours after your 3 years because you if you wait until the next year it is harder for you to get into honours because then the next crop of students are trying to apply
but yeah if you want to do research you gotta enjoy what your doing and the factors that influence that is probably the lab and the environment and then your supervisor (because if you have a shit supervisor, it doesn't matter if you enjoy it you will always come in to work feeling crap) and then the topic your researching. but yeah working in research is very flexible... just as long as you get results
but yeah put medicine first and hopefully you get into that if that is what you wish
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yes you can do that
the people i talked to said that after you come to the end of honours.. their supervisors would actually push them to do phd and continue to do research for them...
some do work before they do phd like my demonstrator for virology worked at pfizer and csl before her phd
yep those scholarships are 20k/yr which is crap... thats why she is a demonstrator to get more money lol desperate...
haha yeah that's what they were saying, some had been working for 10 years and not gotten PhD as they felt they were earning enough. they had a pretty tight social group in the research faculty and most in their 30's and had other projects, like some guy was in a band on the side. where the PhD students were struggling for money and working hard! so it's so understandable why you wouldn't want your PhD just yet;)
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lol yeah phd students usually get the all the hard work! ... writing up the research papers... helping the honours student...getting your experiments to work etc...
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Bachelor of science would get allow you to get a job as a researcher.. and basically they kinda push you into this pathway
biomed would also allow this
pharmaceutical science is more like drug companies and development of drugs and research in that type of area
if you do science... you do can do honours and then phd or masters
money i've heard that its not really great
0k for honours
20k/year for phd
and then afterwards not sure but it won't be great i would say around 40k or 50k
job prospects for researcher would be good if you have the marks and motivation. highly recommended you do honours to do research so you need 70 avg in third year major. if you don't then you would probably just be technical assistant, doing all the crappy jobs like cleaning equipment and fixing them and maintenance...but yeah you gotta be proactive finding a job, talking to lab heads... taking those vacation scholarships etc..
Would i be able to do something similar to pharmaceutical science if i wanted to through bachelor of science? Just making sure i've got all my bases covered for when i make up my mind later down the track.
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i think they are slightly different and focus on different aspects like in pharmeutical science you do medicinal chem or formulation science ... and in pharmacology in science you do drug development, neuro and endocrine pharmacology and drugs in health and disease
look here
http://www.pharm.monash.edu.au/courses/pharmsc/index.html
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/pharmacology/research/index.html
but yeah you could apply to work for pharmaceutical companies in both degrees or work as a pharm rep
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also, if you don't get into med, doing research is a good thing, i met a few people who missed out on med and did the same and they found they liked temporarily doing research and will apply later.
you don't alway want to jump into a career straight out of school and then never get a chance to experience something else (some do though) perhaps some variety will be good, you may find you love it more than you would ever love med and getting into med can be done later, you can have an amazing interview especially from all the life experience you've had, and having an honours behind you can be favourable too.
don't be put down by money, there's always ways to make it even it research!
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i think they are slightly different and focus on different aspects like in pharmeutical science you do medicinal chem or formulation science ... and in pharmacology in science you do drug development, neuro and endocrine pharmacology and drugs in health and disease
look here
http://www.pharm.monash.edu.au/courses/pharmsc/index.html
http://www.med.monash.edu.au/pharmacology/research/index.html
but yeah you could apply to work for pharmaceutical companies in both degrees or work as a pharm rep
Yeah, i managed to find pharmacology inside the master of science and i think its inside Bsc too. Thanks for the help.
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np . well hope you get into what you want. im sure you will do very well. probably atar of 90+ like 90% of vnnotes members do. lol.. so you have a good chance at medicine (and medicine mind you is very difficult too lots of work as well) and then you got the interview
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couldnt you go for another graduate degree if you didnt get into MD?
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couldnt you go for another graduate degree if you didnt get into MD?
of course, but what's the point of that if you want med?
though, depends if there's something else you want to do, and you may be applying for med throughout that grad degree anyway, so instead of spending a year in honours potentially allowing research for the year after and which also can raise GPA, or working for the year to save up or travel then trying again, you are studying a degree you may not be happy with.
though, if i was to apply for MD and didn't get in anywhere in aus, i'd probably try for physio or begin honours.
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Firstly, the pay isnt that high say for if you were to work for Melb Uni as a senior lecturer and researcher, you would probably get around 90k a year
How are you not happy with 90k a year?
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also, if you don't get into med, doing research is a good thing, i met a few people who missed out on med and did the same and they found they liked temporarily doing research and will apply later.
you don't alway want to jump into a career straight out of school and then never get a chance to experience something else (some do though) perhaps some variety will be good, you may find you love it more than you would ever love med and getting into med can be done later, you can have an amazing interview especially from all the life experience you've had, and having an honours behind you can be favourable too.
don't be put down by money, there's always ways to make it even it research!
If you researched into drugs and drug design you could earn alotttttt.
Anyway I believe Doctors are coming out too young anyway. If you are 17 and did the monash course you have your MBBS by 22. Finish GP specialisation and whatnot youll be 26-27. I wouldnt want someone that young treating me.
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also, if you don't get into med, doing research is a good thing, i met a few people who missed out on med and did the same and they found they liked temporarily doing research and will apply later.
you don't alway want to jump into a career straight out of school and then never get a chance to experience something else (some do though) perhaps some variety will be good, you may find you love it more than you would ever love med and getting into med can be done later, you can have an amazing interview especially from all the life experience you've had, and having an honours behind you can be favourable too.
don't be put down by money, there's always ways to make it even it research!
If you researched into drugs and drug design you could earn alotttttt.
Anyway I believe Doctors are coming out too young anyway. If you are 17 and did the monash course you have your MBBS by 22. Finish GP specialisation and whatnot youll be 26-27. I wouldnt want someone that young treating me.
i totally disagree on this matter. IT TAKES LIKE 10 YRS TO BE A DOC! (at UoM)
Doctors should be young. We need a bit of youth on the medical teams :D
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Would you prefer to be operated on by the 40 year old doctor with greying hair, calm voice and the steady hands
or the young gun from UoM 27 years old
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Would you prefer to be operated on by the 40 year old doctor with greying hair, calm voice and the steady hands
or the young gun from UoM 27 years old
That's not the question though. Since he's proposing doctors come out later, it should be whether you prefer the doctor who's 40 and has had 5 years experience because he came out of uni at 35, or the guy from UoM who's in his early 30s but also has had 5 years experience. I personally don't see a difference. If it's about the experience, who gives a crap about how old they are; how many years they've been a doctor is obviously the deciding factor and this isn't affected by what age they come out of uni at. If their actual maturity is what you're concerned about, then fair enough, although I would say most people by their 30s would definitely be mature enough...
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Everybody would prefer to be operated on by the best, but it's necessary for less experienced doctors to perform surgery/care for patients in order to develop their skills.
This is ethical interview question #1
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Lol, yeah, fair enough - all experienced doctors were once upon a time inexperienced after all... ;)
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Would you prefer to be operated on by the 40 year old doctor with greying hair, calm voice and the steady hands
or the young gun from UoM 27 years old
hahaahaaaaa.
at work experience most of the surgeons were around 27-30, and heaps of young residents all over the place with their old mentors hanging by.
at plastics they put the blue sheet over the patient and then the plastics surgeon (who was round 27) put it on like as if it was a nappy. wat an idiot... a hot idiot.
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Would you prefer to be operated on by the 40 year old doctor with greying hair, calm voice and the steady hands
or the young gun from UoM 27 years old
That's not the question though. Since he's proposing doctors come out later...
Meh. If you actually read the posts in question, it was about doctors at 26-27 and stuff - lighten up a lil. might even notice a hint of humour in there somewhere
put it on like it was a nappy? what did you mean by that o.o
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Would you prefer to be operated on by the 40 year old doctor with greying hair, calm voice and the steady hands
or the young gun from UoM 27 years old
That's not the question though. Since he's proposing doctors come out later...
Meh. If you actually read the posts in question, it was about doctors at 26-27 and stuff - lighten up a lil. might even notice a hint of humour in there somewhere
put it on like it was a nappy? what did you mean by that o.o
i mean wat it looks like it means.
as in "hahaaa it looks like a nappy" way.
it was a leg operation thing so they had to cover up the rest and stuff.
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Would you prefer to be operated on by the 40 year old doctor with greying hair, calm voice and the steady hands
or the young gun from UoM 27 years old
That's not the question though. Since he's proposing doctors come out later...
Meh. If you actually read the posts in question, it was about doctors at 26-27 and stuff - lighten up a lil. might even notice a hint of humour in there somewhere
put it on like it was a nappy? what did you mean by that o.o
I did read the posts - I'm just saying that everyone's taking the wrong perspective by only acknowledging age and not experience. I assume everyone's saying that they prefer an older doctor due to experience, but age is irrelevant because older doctors who leave med school later will have the same experience as those younger. And I don't know why you seem to have taken offense at my post but it wasn't intended; I'm simply giving my perspective on the issue brought up by happyhappyland.
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Lol, yeah, fair enough - all experienced doctors were once upon a time inexperienced after all... ;)
If you want to have a experienced doctor working on you, go through the private health system.
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Lol, yeah, fair enough - all experienced doctors were once upon a time inexperienced after all... ;)
If you want to have a experienced doctor working on you, go through the private health system.
Something I only found out recently: not all private hospitals are non-teaching. I've got the option of going to Cabrini next year which is a private hospital and they still teach and allow students to practise on their patients. But generally, yes.
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Wow this has gotten off-topic.
Anyway since they're 27 doesn't necessarily mean they are a bad doctor. They could be a 27 year old medical genius or know their stuff better or have more passion than a 40 year old.
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Wow this has gotten off-topic.
Anyway since they're 27 doesn't necessarily mean they are a bad doctor. They could be a 27 year old medical genius or know their stuff better or have more passion than a 40 year old.
me + 11 yrs = the 27 yr old medical genius :D
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i loled hard at this... even though its from a us perspective... it is similar here
How to become a Scientist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGd-tSsbNns&feature=player_embedded#!
yay for scientists.....
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Hey guys, i need to think about long and hard about my list of uni preferences before i submit them to VTAC. There are so many things im interested in, monash mbbs will obviously be my number 1 preference but im not sure if its the smartest idea to try get in via graduate entry and possibly be left with a science degree and no entry into graduate med.
Anyway, i like sciences but at the same time i like my humanities and such as well so im having a really hard time working out my VTAC preferences.
I was also thinking about medical research, which also very much so interests me but im not sure exactly how to go about it.
What degree would i have to undertake to be a researcher or something similar to that (like work at a university or an organisation like the walter and eliza hall institute or something akin to that.)
As far as i can see Monash has pharmaceutical science which may serve me well i guess.... or should i just take a science degree.... what after that... what postgrad options should i be looking at? I'm sure medical research isnt exclusively the domain of doctors or is it?
Also, how would the money be and what would the job prospects be? (i know this shouldn't be the sole factor for choosing any career and it isn't for me but its still important to consider)
Thanks for all the help, knowledge and insight guys and i doubt someone will be able to answer all my questions but even a little bit will help me out. Even opinions on it are welcome really.
~cheers, kingpomba
(sorry if this isnt very coherent im pretty tired, ill try fix it up later)
Basically being a researcher is really shit. Im just taking it out there. Firstly, the pay isnt that high say for if you were to work for Melb Uni as a senior lecturer and researcher, you would probably get around 90k a year (in which by that time you will be around 40). You have to take lectures as well as do research and take honours students. You have to go find grants to fund your research, otherwise, you wont be able to research. You have to have a genuine interest in researching in your field (im guessing biology sciency stuff). Theres alot of fields in research but their all involve trying to get money and getting good students and etc. It really is getting grants to fund your research which is difficult and stressful.
If you still want to do medicine, you can
Do Melb science:
yr1 - do the umat and attempt non-standard entry
yr2 - do umat and the gamsat - attempt non standard entry
yr3 - do the gamsat if ur 2nd year was bad - go for graduate entry
if that fails
do an honours year - take the gamsat again - some unis give bonus marks for honours year
if that fails
do a Master of Science or PhD
I would consider stop attemping if you fail at honours year because it just means you arent up to the standard of a medical student anyhow.
happy, can you please describe the difference between standard and non-standard?
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As I understand it, non standard is just entry not from year 12 (between starting and finishing an undergraduate degree) so it's harder for obvious reasons.
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As I understand it, non standard is just entry not from year 12 (between starting and finishing an undergraduate degree) so it's harder for obvious reasons.
mm but if i was doing umat whilst doing otago HSFY i can just apply as standard?
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Fairly sure that would make it non standard entry, it's still a tertiary course right? Even though it's just a year?
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Fairly sure that would make it non standard entry, it's still a tertiary course right? Even though it's just a year?
this
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To go back on topic about Medical Research,
If you do Biomedical science at Monash there are Vacation Summer Scholarship where you actually get paid around $250 a week and you go do research in a lab on a specific project for the whole summer (6 to 8 weeks).
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To go back on topic about Medical Research,
If you do Biomedical science at Monash there are Vacation Summer Scholarship where you actually get paid around $250 a week and you go do research in a lab on a specific project for the whole summer (6 to 8 weeks).
I think they have something similar at Melbourne too, but not sure if you get paid or not called something like Science Research Project.
I'd be interesting to do some research because you may love it and then want to carry on with it, I'd probably do it :)
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Yes, but it's ridiculously competitive to get into (UROP is the big one, there are others that are less so)
In most cases you won't be doing stuff that's terribly exciting...but for 25ph I can live with it.
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Yes, but it's ridiculously competitive to get into (UROP is the big one, there are others that are less so)
In most cases you won't be doing stuff that's terribly exciting...but for 25ph I can live with it.
Apparently Monash has many labs you can go to so its not as competitive as melbourne's. I dont think its 25 per hour, but then again Im not sure how much you work a day. If its 9-5 (8hours a day) for 5 days for $250.. thats lower pay than mcdonalds
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Oh melbourne is the same, if you just want lab experience then there are plenty of places that will take a student over the summer but it's not as well paid and it's mostly doing behind the scenes stuff (washing glassware etc.)
But the scholarship style stuff that was mentioned is where you get to at least take part in the research. UROP has you perform your own research project, so obviously it's far more competitive.
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i would recommend doing a summer vacation scholarship at the end of your second year because it will give you a little experience in working in a lab so you can decide if you really want to do this. yeh you get paid usually around $250-300 per week for 5-6 weeks
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Fairly sure that would make it non standard entry, it's still a tertiary course right? Even though it's just a year?
Otago is undergraduate med it wouldnt be fair imo to make it non standard, fairy sure its standard, someone correct me if im wrong though
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Why would it be normal entry? You're not a school leaver any more, you've started tertiary studies.
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Fairly sure that would make it non standard entry, it's still a tertiary course right? Even though it's just a year?
Otago is undergraduate med it wouldnt be fair imo to make it non standard, fairy sure its standard, someone correct me if im wrong though
It's only standard if you don't do a course at all that year, or quit your course before the census date i.e. you haven't completed a single year of tertiary study. That would qualify you as still being a school leaver. I had a friend a year above me get into UoM Dent, quit it, apply for med that year and end up in my cohort.
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Fairly sure that would make it non standard entry, it's still a tertiary course right? Even though it's just a year?
Otago is undergraduate med it wouldnt be fair imo to make it non standard, fairy sure its standard, someone correct me if im wrong though
It's only standard if you don't do a course at all that year, or quit your course before the census date i.e. you haven't completed a single year of tertiary study. That would qualify you as still being a school leaver. I had a friend a year above me get into UoM Dent, quit it, apply for med that year and end up in my cohort.
so how does non-standard differ, do they lower our scores 10 %iles or soemthing?
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In general, it's more competitive. You're judged on uni GPA and there are less places available. They don't reduce your scores but the requirements are higher.
Go read the first paragraph of this on MSO
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link is bad, how do you mean harder, harder questions or they raise the bar for undergraduate entry for those non-standard
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Link is fine for me
Non-standard applicants are those who are not applying to Medicine immediately after completing Year 12 in high school. These may include those who have taken a gap year, have started their tertiary education or other training, have completed another degree, or are already working. Non-standard applicants are considered different to school-leavers, and thus they have slightly different entry requirements, and a different number of places allocated to them. These students will also be required to apply similar to all other applicants (they cannot transfer between courses), must start the MBBS course from scratch, and usually aren't able to transfer units from other courses. Non-standard applicants who haven't yet completed a degree may only apply to Undergraduate Universities, whereas those who have completed a degree may apply to both Graduate and Undergraduate universities.
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Link is fine for me
Non-standard applicants are those who are not applying to Medicine immediately after completing Year 12 in high school. These may include those who have taken a gap year, have started their tertiary education or other training, have completed another degree, or are already working. Non-standard applicants are considered different to school-leavers, and thus they have slightly different entry requirements, and a different number of places allocated to them. These students will also be required to apply similar to all other applicants (they cannot transfer between courses), must start the MBBS course from scratch, and usually aren't able to transfer units from other courses. Non-standard applicants who haven't yet completed a degree may only apply to Undergraduate Universities, whereas those who have completed a degree may apply to both Graduate and Undergraduate universities.
works now, however theres no specify detail on otago
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It's the same general principle for all universities.