ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => VCE English Studies => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE English & EAL => Topic started by: Chavi on December 03, 2010, 01:07:41 am
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As the old saying goes, (I know it's cliche.. but xD) practice makes perfect.
there is no such thing as the perfect essay
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ahaha i beg to differ :P for the VCE, you can do it perfectly. of course, it could be better, but its perfect enough for the VCE. practice, know your texts, originality of ideas, write a million essays, and have me as a tutor. that's really about it, can't go wrong.
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ahaha i beg to differ :P for the VCE, you can do it perfectly. of course, it could be better, but its perfect enough for the VCE. practice, know your texts, originality of ideas, write a million essays, and have me as a tutor. that's really about it, can't go wrong.
Getting a 10 from a VCAA examiner doesn't make your essay perfect
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If you mean VCE English - then write write write.
If you mean English in general - then read read read.
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read my whole comment? "it could be better, but it's perfect enough for the VCE"
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If you mean VCE English - then write write write.
If you mean English in general - then read read read.
+1
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read my whole comment? "it could be better, but it's perfect enough for the VCE"
I think that perfection is unattainable for any piece of prose - because judgment is inherently subjective.
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i think for the VCE, achieving a perfect score (10, or 3 x 10), is, well, perfect.
can't argue with that :P
it's just semantics, i do agree with you - but there was no reason for you to disagree with me
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i think for the VCE, achieving a perfect score (10, or 3 x 10), is, well, perfect.
can't argue with that :P
it's just semantics, i do agree with you - but there was no reason for you to disagree with me
A 50 in English doesn't prove one has mastered the English language.
All it shows is that you've successfully managed to tailor your essays to the narrow VCAA marking guidelines, or regurgitate pre-planned sentences onto an exam paper in a time limit.
This isn't a matter of semantics. No piece is truly perfect, only at some stage, abandoned.
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It's a matter of semantics by the way in which you are attempting to disagree with me. Please re-read my above comments and hopefully you'll realise that I am saying that you can become the perfect VCE English student (which is quite a separate comment from saying you are perfect at English as a language, or whatever you seem to think I'm saying).
Hint for next year though, be a little bit more definitive in your writing, and less whimsical/quasi philosophical:
"judgment is inherently subjective" and "No piece is truly perfect, only at some stage, abandoned". The former is by no means an original comment, while the latter (ignoring clumsy syntax) strikes me as an attempt at poetical writing which seems inappropriate for a web-based (and more or less any other) medium...
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Shit's goin' down in here!
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It's a matter of semantics by the way in which you are attempting to disagree with me. Please re-read my above comments and hopefully you'll realise that I am saying that you can become the perfect VCE English student (which is quite a separate comment from saying you are perfect at English as a language, or whatever you seem to think I'm saying).
Hint for next year though, be a little bit more definitive in your writing, and less whimsical/quasi philosophical:
"judgment is inherently subjective" and "No piece is truly perfect, only at some stage, abandoned". The former is by no means an original comment, while the latter (ignoring clumsy syntax) strikes me as an attempt at poetical writing which seems inappropriate for a web-based (and more or less any other) medium...
Thank you for that concise, sanctimonious explanation, Freud. I finished this year.
The latter comment is a quote from 'Maestro' by P. Goldsworthy. The former comment is my empirical observations on English essay marking.
I disagree with a system that encourages students to attain a concept of "perfection," which entails formulaic responses, rote learning and brain deadening conformity to particular styles of writing.
I understand that you have to tutor according to the study design (my condolences), but your so-called concept of perfection of 60/60 in the final exam, holds no meaning in real life, no matter how 'perfect' the pieces seem to the examiner marking your work.
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^Case in point, Collin Li got 36 for English; Eriny got 38. Need I say more?
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^Case in point, Collin Li got 36 for English; Eriny got 38. Need I say more?
this is a good point. But had they achieved 50s, my point still stands. It's quite unfortunate that prospective students determine the quality of tutors by their study scores, when in reality, these are merely haphazard yardsticks that measure your ability to spew out a few paragraphs that tick all the boxes. You might achieve a 50 and get away with the dreaded 'TEEL' come October. . .
For a subject such as VCE English, you could get away with 3 "perfect" pieces of garbage.
Case point:
Meaningless pieces of advice like this:
Hint for next year though, be a little bit more definitive in your writing, and less whimsical/quasi philosophical:
Tell a struggling student to be more "definitive", and they'll have no idea what you're talking about. You may as well summarise this drivel into 2 words: "wRiTe Better"
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It's a matter of semantics by the way in which you are attempting to disagree with me. Please re-read my above comments and hopefully you'll realise that I am saying that you can become the perfect VCE English student (which is quite a separate comment from saying you are perfect at English as a language, or whatever you seem to think I'm saying).
Hint for next year though, be a little bit more definitive in your writing, and less whimsical/quasi philosophical:
"judgment is inherently subjective" and "No piece is truly perfect, only at some stage, abandoned". The former is by no means an original comment, while the latter (ignoring clumsy syntax) strikes me as an attempt at poetical writing which seems inappropriate for a web-based (and more or less any other) medium...
Thank you for that concise, sanctimonious explanation, Freud. I finished this year.
The latter comment is a quote from 'Maestro' by P. Goldsworthy. The former comment is my empirical observations on English essay marking.
I disagree with a system that encourages students to attain a concept of "perfection," which entails formulaic responses, rote learning and brain deadening conformity to particular styles of writing.
I understand that you have to tutor according to the study design (my condolences), but your so-called concept of perfection of 60/60 in the final exam, holds no meaning in real life, no matter how 'perfect' the pieces seem to the examiner marking your work.
[posting in English board, it's been so long]
I don't think many people care about reaching (or even getting close) to perfection in English. VCE English is just that, a score. Beyond that, who gives a damn? herzy is right in saying that there is a way to reach a perfect score in English, VCE English is just as systematic as a maths subject.
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Once again, I never mentioned real life. I must have misread your by-line - I suppose it will hopefully be a message for your future at uni then. The VCE system is flawed, yes, but I quite like the new English curriculum and enjoy teaching it - good, eloquent writers who are succinct and effective, which original ideas, are generally rewarded. 'your empirical observations' hey? Lol to define judgment as anything but subjective would be illogical, but I find it interesting you use empirical observations to quantify a subjective issue...
By the way, I believe you used sanctimonious in the wrong context. Perhaps you meant condescending? Given the manner of your approach in tackling a non-issue, I feel it's warranted.
Also, I have a relatively thorough knowledge of psychology for a layman, but utterly fail to understand your freudian reference...?
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and thanks Mao, somehow my message must'nt have come across clearly - except to you.
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^Case in point, Collin Li got 36 for English; Eriny got 38. Need I say more?
this is a good point. But had they achieved 50s, my point still stands. It's quite unfortunate that prospective students determine the quality of tutors by their study scores, when in reality, these are merely haphazard yardsticks that measure your ability to spew out a few paragraphs that tick all the boxes. You might achieve a 50 and get away with the dreaded 'TEEL' come October. . .
For a subject such as VCE English, you could get away with 3 "perfect" pieces of garbage.
Case point:
Meaningless pieces of advice like this:
Hint for next year though, be a little bit more definitive in your writing, and less whimsical/quasi philosophical:
Tell a struggling student to be more "definitive", and they'll have no idea what you're talking about. You may as well summarise this drivel into 2 words: "wRiTe Better"
Sure, one should ask a prospective tutor to "sell themselves" (not literally) before deciding to employ them. True for maths as well, ability to tutor certainly isn't inherent in pure mathematical ability.
There was a forum member "gonzo" who might have been from your school, reckoned he got a 50 simply by dazzling the examiners. (I know "bebobebo", who shared good my taste in films was at your school.)
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"The VCE system is flawed, yes, but I quite like the new English curriculum and enjoy teaching it - good, eloquent writers who are succinct and effective, which original ideas, are generally rewarded."
-there is no disagreement here. Every student reading this topic should know that perfection is unattainable. Simple as that. You can craft your piece to the curriculum, include original ideas and end up with a 10. Is it perfect? no.
lol at the attempt to denigrate my 2am language with ad hominems because you've run out of arguments.
- Do you suggest that subjective conclusions cannot be drawn from empiricism?
- Nope. Sanctimonious was used properly in context (see it's these little, irrelevant things that get you). Condescending is slightly too harsh, and I don't believe you post out of malice. Dare I say that your posts strike me as rather recalcitrant instead. Too absorbed within the system to allow the transfer of new, original ideas.
- It was a non issue. Until you began debating me on a point we both seem to agree on.
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Mod edit: split offtopic threads.
why does everything on VN turn into a goddamn debate >.>
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Mod edit: split offtopic threads.
why does everything on VN turn into a goddamn debate >.>
Why are you splitting threads at 2:30am? Is this what the cruel taskmasters at VN inc hire you to do?
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Mod edit: split offtopic threads.
why does everything on VN turn into a goddamn debate >.>
Why are you splitting threads at 2:30am? Is this what the cruel taskmasters at VN inc hire you to do?
No, kind sir. We are normal people just like you, and we like staying up till 4 in the morning. :)
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I believe the topic was split because the current discussion has very little to do with the thread it originated from and is probably not going to help the OP of that thread.
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Mod edit: split offtopic threads.
why does everything on VN turn into a goddamn debate >.>
Why are you splitting threads at 2:30am? Is this what the cruel taskmasters at VN inc hire you to do?
No, kind sir. We are normal people just like you, and we like staying up till 4 in the morning. :)
Do you know of the kind of problems that can cause to your metabolism?
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Haha - once again, all I will say is that you are disagreeing with something I never said. Ever since, I have been trying to rectify your misconception (and various other flaws purely because I became impatient). That, and that having graduated last year, I am hardly recalcitrant lol.
Side note: I don't believe I relied on moral superiority (sanctimonious) or ethos/pathos (by arguing ad hominem) at all... and I further disagree - empiricism indicates merely correlation; conclusions are very different (and subjective).
Tell a struggling student to be more "definitive", and they'll have no idea what you're talking about. You may as well summarise this drivel into 2 words: "wRiTe Better"
What I meant by saying writing 'definitively' is more simplistically - to focus on what you're trying to say, rather than how you're saying it. I gave clear examples of where I thought this was lacking, and obviously would have gone into more depth had I thought Chavi would have appreciated my advice (which somehow I doubt.).
There was a forum member "gonzo" who might have been from your school, reckoned he got a 50 simply by dazzling the examiners. (I know "bebobebo", who shared good my taste in films was at your school.)
[/quote]
unsure who bebobebo is, but I certainly write (and advocate writing) in more or less the opposite way. I very rarely used words not found in everyday (albeit well-educated) language, and encourage complexity of ideas conveyed through clear and concise language.
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Mod edit: split offtopic threads.
why does everything on VN turn into a goddamn debate >.>
Why are you splitting threads at 2:30am? Is this what the cruel taskmasters at VN inc hire you to do?
No, kind sir. We are normal people just like you, and we like staying up till 4 in the morning. :)
Do you know of the kind of problems that can cause to your metabolism?
yep, it's been a whole semester now and I can eat loads without gaining weight.
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lol seems to work for me too
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Mod edit: split offtopic threads.
why does everything on VN turn into a goddamn debate >.>
Why are you splitting threads at 2:30am? Is this what the cruel taskmasters at VN inc hire you to do?
Chavi, my cherub, what can I say? My faithful Chavi-sense allows me to know whenever you've stirred up yet another debate and beckons me irresistibly to my computer so that I can fulfil my destiny as VCENOTES GLOBAL MODERATOR
jk, insomnia ftmfw, fml
Do you know of the kind of problems that can cause to your metabolism?
You calling us fat?
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I gotta agree with herzy on this one.. ;)
You can meet and 'perfect' the requirements of VCE English for sure.. whilst we are always learning new things as we get older, we can only write at a secondary school level in the VCE and that's what compares us to the rest of the state - in the bid to get a 'perfect' 50 study score. But a 50 score is by no means an indicator of 'perfection'.. it just shows that you are in the top rank of the state cohort.. who may not be perfect. OK.. this debate is just really complicated!
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Chavi, I didn't necessarily mean 'perfect' in a literal sense... it's the saying 'Practice makes perfect'. Nothing is perfect in our world. On another note, it really depends on how you define perfect. If one would define perfect as being a 50 in English, then sure, it's perfect to them. But literally, NOTHING is perfect as every single human being is different.