ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: chrisjb on December 18, 2010, 07:20:08 pm
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From Today's Age (18/12/2010) [Letters]
Let down by system
PURE shock is all I remember feeling as I read my legal studies result. A 34 is a fine score but doesn't reflect my 60-plus hours of study for the exam; nothing below an A on all my SACs (school assessed coursework) and very positive practice exam results. Then the disappointment and the disbelief sank in.
So I rang the helpline and was greeted by admittedly genuine people who tried to explain the reason for my grade while I cried on the other end of the phone. Although I received an A for unit 3, an A+ for unit 4 and an A on the end-of year-exam, I was marked down due to the lack of consistency between my class's exam grades compared with their SACs, despite the fact that my grades were consistent.
This is simply unjust. How is it logical or fair that I have been punished for the slackness of others? It has left me pondering whether I should worry about passing VCE's adequacy tests, or whether they should be worried about passing mine.
Maria Patrik, Gardenvale
I think she doesn't understand the system. It's not unjust at all, from what I can see she has assumed that when her teacher gave her an A+, it would stay an A+ and be the same as, for example, getting an A+ on the exam. Seccondly, it would be unjust to "[be] punished for the slackness (sic.) of others" but that doesn't happen. The ranking system ensures that if you're good enough an try hard enough then the 'slackness' of others doesn't effect you.
Also, she only got an A on the exam. This can't be changed at all by her cohort. Someone who gets an A on the exam doesn't deserve to get 40+ unless they have absolutely aced all the sacs (which is unlikely and which doesn't appear to have happened here). I think this woman deserved the score she got.
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Probably just a misunderstanding of the system. Often people are quite unaware of what's actually outside their school. Students can often be put up on an altar at their school, only to realise that their straight As don't really mean anything when it comes to the game of VCE.
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Since when did The Age become A Current Affair?
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We wouldn't have these problems if everyone knew what the normal distribution is...
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It's crushing when you realise there are many people better than you outside your school.
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It's crushing when you realise there are many people better than you outside your school.
Yeah, after spending a few months on here I was quite surprised by the strength of the VN cohort and of just the sheer number of people who actually knew what they were talking about. :)
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I have a feeling this girl doesn't realise it usually takes A+ A+ A+ GAs to get 40+. Also, I'm going to assume she hasn't done 3/4 Methods, as if she did, she would understand the normal distribution curve.
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Pure misunderstanding on the girl's behalf.
For The Age to even decide to publish her letter is an even bigger misunderstanding..
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I reckon we need to teach this stuff at the start of year 11 (i wrote a letter about it to the age today so i'll be looking for it on monday). If we taught people how it works then they wouldn't be upset at the end of the year when they get sub par results.
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I have a feeling this girl doesn't realise it usually takes A+ A+ A+ GAs to get 40+. Also, I'm going to assume she hasn't done 3/4 Methods, as if she did, she would understand the normal distribution curve.
I did 3/4 Methods and I'm pretty sure I never understood the normal distribution curve :D (or anything else in Methods)
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You know I actually feel sorry for her in a way, not only that she probably doesn't understand the ways of VCAA and their 40+'s.. but that she was brutally hammered on the low end scale (lowest of the low) for her study score reflecting her GA's. Someone from my school doing History got the same as her; A+; A and A, and received a 39. Additionally I got a 36 for A+, A+ and only a B. I'd be raging too... but still she probably doesn't understand the 3 A+ formula for a 40+ :S
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It is unfortunate how many people don't realise how competitive VCE is, and the marks required for the scores they desire. It sounds as though she is in year 11 and this was her 3/4, so at least this can be a bit of a wake up call for next year. Many people are very quick to blame the system when things don't go their way, but if they actually understood how everything works, it could save a bit of surprise come results day. I think one of the big problems is that many teachers don't truly understand the system, and this can cause them to lull students into a false sense of security, or impart false expectations on them.
No joke, I was on the train the day of results and I heard a girl explain to her friend that "if someone got a better rank than you, but they didn't do as well - they get your ATAR and you get theirs" - :uglystupid2: *massive facepalm*
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"if someone got a better rank than you, but they didn't do as well - they get your ATAR and you get theirs"
I LOL'D
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It's crushing when you realise there are many people better than you outside your school.
+1.
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I kinda feel a bit sorry for her (60+ hours! I only did ~20 for bio) but she needs to definitely understand the system more.
It's crushing when you realise there are many people better than you outside your school.
That's true too
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It doesn't matter how much time you spend studying or how many exam papers you do - it all depends on whether the wind is blowing your way on exam day (This is what I heard from someone and sad enough, I learnt this lesson the hard way this year)
No joke, I was on the train the day of results and I heard a girl explain to her friend that "if someone got a better rank than you, but they didn't do as well - they get your ATAR and you get theirs" - :uglystupid2: *massive facepalm*
This doesn't sound very fair...
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60+ hours of studying is nothing... Exam period is about one month thats about 2 hours a day...
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^ If she was doing year 12 she might have been doing an additional 4 or so subjects. So in that situation 60 hours may have been a lot for a single subject. I don't think it specifies though...
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The SAC system based on ranking does fail at times. If the SACs aren't hard enough, then true talent isn't rewarded, as 'excellent' students receive similar marks to those who are just 'good', and careless errors can even put them behind others xD I realise that one may argue: "but they made mistakes, and got a lower mark in SACs, so they deserve to get a lower mark." Yes, that is the premise that this system is based on. But in situations such as this, is it really fair on the student? They weren't given a chance to shine? So is it their fault? Should their mark then be dependant upon the performance of these other students?
But I digress. The issue I want to raise is one which I have just come to realise myself: The ranking system fails with a small cohort. In a large school, you'd be right to assume that there would be a good spread of ability, from the high achieving students to the bludgers. So in this school is a few people were to be ranked slightly "unfairly" - I use this word to denote being ranked outside of their ability, for whatever reason - then there would be minimal impact on them, because there would only be a little difference in the moderated scores they received and that which they "deserve".
However, in a small cohort, there may be vast differences between the abilities of students. So if for example, the most capable student receives second rank, then there will be a large impact on the students moderated SAC score, and hence their SS - it could even end up costing them on their ATAR. And these 'damages' to their score are independent of the actual SAC mark, so long as they are ranked second.
Now, the reason I have brought this up is because I was affected by it. I don't mean to blow my own trumpet and claim that I am 'smarter' than everyone else in my school, but in terms of SACs I was severely disadvantaged for being just a few percent in SAC average behind someone who was not able to maintain such a high average in exams.
As an example of this: I was just 2 percent behind rank 1 in chemistry yet there was a whole grades difference in our moderated SAC score; she received an A+ while I was allotted an A. That's a difference of ~10% just because she did not maintain her average over exams. So even though I had 95% in SACs and an even higher average in exams, I get 44. Had the rankings been reversed (remember it would only take a change of 1-2% for each of us), I would have had 48+.
Another example, which shows even more blatantly the failing of the current SAC system, is my specialist maths result this year. In this subject I was just 1% behind first rank, and because of this minuscule difference my SACs were relegated to a B+! So because someone who marginally outperformed me in SACs stumbled in the exams, I take his "punishment" too? That is illogical. Again, this tiny difference in SACs, (which would normally be ignored anyway as we both had averages of over 90,) has cost me upwards of 6 SS points. That is unfair. Being 1% behind in SACs equates to a difference of two grades? If the ranking were reversed, I would have easily hit 42. Instead, I got 36.
The people who have the power to stop this is teachers, by setting harder SACs to provide a better spread of results.
Again, I expect that many will follow the line that "oh, but they made more mistakes, so they should get a lower score". I agree, the score should be lower, but not disproportionately; Is it really fair for a student who has 1% difference in SAC score to receive 20% lower in their moderated score? I shouldn't think so. This is what the current ranking system for SACs allows when there are holes in the distribution of performance of students (ie one student at high level, then the next student is only moderate. Or even a batch at high level, then a batch at moderate level. Those who are ranked around the change in "skill" can be disadvantaged.) And this is most likely to happen in small cohorts, but it also happens in large ones too.
EDIT:
Just to condense for those who cbf reading:
My main qualm with the current system is that a marginal difference in raw SAC scores can lead to a disproportionate discrepancy in the moderated mark.
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^ Agreed. It's something I've noticed myself before but there's not much you can do about it I guess (well nothing that I've thought of which would work well; notably, I haven't thought very hard about it). This is why schools such as MHS and McRob consistently do well. Regardless of the fact that their cohorts are I guess inherently already smart, they gain an advantage on SACs as well. For physics, my brother got around mostly a D average for SACs with some compensation by a few A's from plagiarising others' prac reports. In the end, he ended with an A for his moderated SAC mark. Wut.
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the sooner she realises that VCE means shit all in the scheme of things, the easier it will be to move on with real, un-examinable life
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the sooner she realises that VCE means shit all in the scheme of things, the easier it will be to move on with real, un-examinable life
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The people who have the power to stop this is teachers, by setting harder SACs to provide a better spread of results.
EDIT:
Just to condense for those who cbf reading:
My main qualm with the current system is that a marginal difference in raw SAC scores can lead to a disproportionate discrepancy in the moderated mark.
Heh that's what I asked my Accounting teacher to do and it bumped my 95% SAC average (thanks to silly mistakes) to 99% average.
However I have a tendency to do badly on external assessments so I apologise to those students in my cohort who have been affected by my poor BusMan/Acc/Economics exam marks (I was rank 1-3 in all three but did badly in all exams ;__; A,B+,C..)
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Remember though that there are many people out there who do not get into the courses they would like to. So problems in the system that contribute to them missing out is a justified cause for anger.
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Also, VCE isn't purely about raw academic ability. It's all about playing the system. How is it that 8 kids from a single school end up with 50s in english, but brilliant english students from other schools end up with mid 40s? Sac ranks, luck on the day, generous examiners and writing to the study design are the ingredients for a high mark - not necessarily one's ability.
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I got a question, why doesn't everyone just get the same SACs? (like how we get the same exams)
Wouldn't this be fair even though it takes time to set up and all.
I don't know about folios though
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How come she didn't get a high 30? unless everyone did pretty well
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I got a question, why doesn't everyone just get the same SACs? (like how we get the same exams)
Wouldn't this be fair even though it takes time to set up and all.
I don't know about folios though
good question. Becuase we want to avoid a cheating problem of myschool proportions. Let them rank kids on their own internally, by whatever means they deem necessary. VCAA will do the rest with the GAT and external exams
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How do you effectively find your 'rank' amongst the entire cohort? If there are numerous classes, would you just ask around?
Does that mean if you effectively don't maintain a rank of 1, you honestly cannot get a really high + good score? :S
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It is unfortunate how many people don't realise how competitive VCE is, and the marks required for the scores they desire. It sounds as though she is in year 11 and this was her 3/4, so at least this can be a bit of a wake up call for next year. Many people are very quick to blame the system when things don't go their way, but if they actually understood how everything works, it could save a bit of surprise come results day. I think one of the big problems is that many teachers don't truly understand the system, and this can cause them to lull students into a false sense of security, or impart false expectations on them.
No joke, I was on the train the day of results and I heard a girl explain to her friend that "if someone got a better rank than you, but they didn't do as well - they get your ATAR and you get theirs" - :uglystupid2: *massive facepalm*
A girl at my school thought that letter grades were all that mattered; upon hearing that the A+ cut-off for one her exams had been unusually low the previous year, she talked of how she'd have been "so annoyed" if she had got 100% on it, when a much lower mark would have sufficed for an A+
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Solution: abolish SACS, and instead have 3(?) external exams per subject. That way everything is external, and everyone has an equal chance of performing well.
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I'm sorry but that would be nasty and excessively strenuous. People crumble under the strictness of ONE exam (Like Me), and for some a classroom setting which isn't as formal is more comfortable and maximises performance.
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I'm sorry but that would be nasty and excessively strenuous. People crumble under the strictness of ONE exam (Like Me), and for some a classroom setting which isn't as formal is more comfortable and maximises performance.
Yeah I can see your point, but I guess this is the crux of the argument. Should we reward students who may have slightly out performed their peers during the year (even if it is only just) but can't maintain the same marks during the exam, thereby potentially having significant effects on the lower ranked students study score as a result? Their can definitely be arguments made for both cases.
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Solution: Have a state-wide standard SAC? Or standard variations of each SAC made by VCAA
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I do humanities subjects and I wouldn't mind having 2 exams for each subject as well as SACs. A midyear exam might take some of the pressure off for the end of year exam. If the study score came from 1/3 SAC marks, 1/3 1st exam and 1/3 2nd exam it might be a little fairer.
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Solution: Have a state-wide standard SAC? Or standard variations of each SAC made by VCAA
No, you just can't have a state-wide 'school assessed coursework' (or w/e it stands for)
If you want the same SACs for each school, then they'd practically have to be exams..
Think about it, everyone in the state would have to sit their SACs on the exact same day AND time for this too work
It's way too much pressure, the amount of exams you do for all your subjects now would become the amount of exams you do for one subject (sacs = exams) if you implement this.
If you take a look into the VCAA system, it's probably the most fair it can be, people just don't know it very well, and i think schools should started raising awareness.
Seriously, some people just think VCAA are stupid and yet they have no idea how VCAA itself works.
There's a reason they're the head of high-school education, they aren't some drop-kick duds
(although, it's disappointing to see the mistakes on actual exams they made)
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So you think that the system is the "most fair it can be" when a difference of 1% in internal SAC average can translate to a 20% difference in the moderated score? In fact, it could be even higher than this, if there were a larger difference in ability of students.
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So you think that the system is the "most fair it can be" when a difference of 1% in internal SAC average can translate to a 20% difference in the moderated score? In fact, it could be even higher than this, if there were a larger difference in ability of students.
Bad luck matty, they really have to fix this SAC bs.
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So you think that the system is the "most fair it can be" when a difference of 1% in internal SAC average can translate to a 20% difference in the moderated score? In fact, it could be even higher than this, if there were a larger difference in ability of students.
Yes, I do.
Why should the VCAA even look at what grades your teachers give you? They don't care about your grades, it's about your rank. I go to Rowville Secondary College, compare my SACs to a school like Melbourne High, which school's SAC do you think are going to be harder? Is it fair that a below average student can have a SAC average of A+ (97%) at a crappy school whilst a top-end student can have a SAC average of B+ (84%) at a highly-ranked school and then VCAA to keep it this way? Of course not. You know what? I ended up getting a moderated A for my SAC, whilst my incompetent teacher originally gave me mid B's (this is for IT btw). If
VCAA were to keep these SAC scores and not moderate them accordingly to my exam, i would have an even lower SS. If each school is to have different SACs, each teacher to mark differently, then VCAA's only way to even things out is to moderate SACs accordingly to exam scores..
Also, im sick and tired of all the nubs on the age complaining about how private schools and selective schools will always be better off..
The reason that they get higher ATARs than other schools is primarily because the students WANT to get high ATARs.
Kids at my school simply say 'I just want to pass'- What does that even mean? or get a 70 and sometimes get an 80..
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Did you even read my previous post? xD
I agree that the moderation IS necessary. But what I am talking about is in the same school, first rank is on 96%, another is on 95%. Come exam time rank 1 gets a LOW mark, say a B+, while rank 2 maintains an A+ score. Is it fair that rank 1 receives an A+ for their moderated SAC mark while rank 2 gets the B+? (I know it does not work EXACTLY this way, but it is a good approximation)
IE. Is it fair that a difference of 1% in SAC average can translate to a 20% difference in the moderated SAC score?
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Did you even read my previous post? xD
I agree that the moderation IS necessary. But what I am talking about is in the same school, first rank is on 96%, another is on 95%. Come exam time rank 1 gets a LOW mark, say a B+, while rank 2 maintains an A+ score. Is it fair that rank 1 receives an A+ for their moderated SAC mark while rank 2 gets the B+? (I know it does not work EXACTLY this way, but it is a good approximation)
IE. Is it fair that a difference of 1% in SAC average can translate to a 20% difference in the moderated SAC score?
Hm, sorry I guess i didn't completely understand what you were trying to say.
Does that actually happen?
I was rank 4 (weak weak weak cohort of 8 people), and scored the highest/second highest on the exam, pulled out a 39, SACs moderated to A.
Rank 1 pulled out a 42.
I'm confident when i say that the 4th highest exam score was AT MOST a B+, so i'm not quite sure if it works out roughly the way you say it does? Rank 2 in your case, should still have gotten A-A+ for their moderated SAC scores
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Nup, I was this rank 2. And I definitely got B+ for SACs, even though I got A and A+ for the exams.
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Nup, I was this rank 2. And I definitely got B+ for SACs, even though I got A and A+ for the exams.
Interesting, do you know what kind of A's they were?
(Low A, Low A+, or..)
And did rank 1 happen to get the second highest exam score, and you the highest?
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Is it fair that a difference of 1% in SAC average can translate to a 20% difference in the moderated SAC score?
No, obviously it's not fair.
Also, im sick and tired of all the nubs on the age complaining about how private schools and selective schools will always be better off..
The reason that they get higher ATARs than other schools is primarily because the students WANT to get high ATARs.
Kids at my school simply say 'I just want to pass'- What does that even mean? or get a 70 and sometimes get an 80..
I don't think you can compare selective schools like MHS and Mac.Rob to any other schools. They intake students primarily on the basis of academic abilities (passing their exam or whatever). They are always going to be near the top when it comes to academic results each year, that's fact. As you point out, it's more about the attitude of students - students who want to do well and have set goals, tend to do exactly that - do well.
I knew someone who got 98.XX at a so-called "crap" school in the western suburbs. If you work hard and put in the effort (maintain rank 1), anything is possible.
I do realise I've diverted the topic of discussion - I just thought I'd mention that.
Continue on.
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
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Nup, I was this rank 2. And I definitely got B+ for SACs, even though I got A and A+ for the exams.
Interesting, do you know what kind of A's they were?
(Low A, Low A+, or..)
And did rank 1 happen to get the second highest exam score, and you the highest?
I have not got any statements, but after reviewing my performance, I'd say high A and mid A+.
I also haven't actually asked around about exam scores, but yes I would assume that rank 1 got the second highest exam score, at B+.
Oh and just to make clear how small the cohort is, there were only 6 of us in Spesh. And in Chem there were also 6..
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
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Favouritism shouldn't come into it, though I know it happens. Who knows what teachers enter in those spreadsheets with SAC results. I've heard cases where schools bump up students' SAC marks (when recording them) which is blatantly unfair. Though, I was told my Accounting teacher that VCAA can randomly check students' actual SACs to verify the results which schools have given to VCAA.
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
Apparently yes they are, but everyone in my class got lower sac grades compared to other classses... and in effect we all had lower study scores.
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
Apparently yes they are, but everyone in my class got lower sac grades compared to other classses... and in effect we all had lower study scores.
Well that's just plain BS.
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Rowville Secondary College teachers had 'meetings' to cross-mark our English SACs. According to my sources, all they did was drink coffee and gossip. They only bothered cross-marking one or two.
It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
Apparently yes they are, but everyone in my class got lower sac grades compared to other classses... and in effect we all had lower study scores.
That's the one of the issues cross-marking can eradicate. This "harsh teacher" scenario is made worse in Humanities and English subjects, where there are no quantitative answers. I made sure my essays appealed to my teacher by having the same bias opinions about the US as him.
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Well i know for sure that they cross mark the english exams and maths exams because all those teachers had to have a day off to cross mark them, but they never did for bio... We just took the teachers' words that they did :/
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I've heard cases where schools bump up students' SAC marks (when recording them) which is blatantly unfair.
I've heard the same thing in my school too - the girl with the highest English score this year had her SACs 'bumped up'... so, so rigged.
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I've heard cases where schools bump up students' SAC marks (when recording them) which is blatantly unfair.
I've heard the same thing in my school too - the girl with the highest English score this year had her SACs 'bumped up'... so, so rigged.
That is so unfair! :(
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In general, I think it's a fair way to distinguish between students. Those students, however, who are the best in their cohort at a poorer school (and who have the potential to do well in a strong cohort) are those who suffer the most.
I went to a selective school with an extremely strong cohort. I averaged B in my SACs for English this year and ended up with a 46 study score after a terrific exam performance. I'm definitely not making any complaints about the system nor my study score, however since SACs are internal then this system is probably the best way to moderate scores for the majority of students, and I cannot think of any other more effective way of doing so.
It is also quite effective at preventing school administration and staff 'cheating' i.e. people at a poor school sitting easy SACs and achieving high marks on them, as compared to a MacRob or MHS student (who might have the same potential as someone who is top of their cohort at a weaker school) sitting unbelievably difficult SACs and getting an average score. A study score is indicative of your performance against the state, so moderation is necessary.
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I may as well say my piece as well.
I go to a fairly average school, and yes we do have a wide spread of kids from some very good kids to some very, very average students. We have a large cohort of around ~250 Year 12's, but even so I wouldn't say it helps the kids at the top end.
If my Year 11 carry on into Year 12, then I will been Rank 1 in Methods, Chem and Spesh in a relatively weak cohort this coming year.
Although this gives me the best opportunity for a good score on the provision that I do well in Exams, if I happen to crumble and/or lose valuable marks on simple errors, where is my backup? I really have no one to back me up, because in essence I really have no insurance policy in case I crumble.
Now I don't mean to say that VCAA should have to compensate for my errors, because in the end it is a mistake that I did, oh which I did somewhat have control over. But if I were in a strong cohort, one that almost guarantees a large number of good scores, even if I were rank 10 in this cohort, if I make mistakes it will not nearly have the detrimental effects that it would in a weaker cohort.
So how is it that someone that has a lower rank in a decent cohort can beat someone that has the same ability, simply because of the students around him or her holding them up. An ATAR and SS is a ranking, so how can you be carried by your fellow peers.
I have had to learn this long after it was too late to do something about it, and I regret it now, but something needs to be done about it to bridge this gap that is becoming so much more evident, but I don't know what can be done to avoid cheating among schools...
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I think she's an idiot (I'm sure she's verry smart at something else).
Do you understand quantum electrodynamics? no? Then you must be an idiot! I'm sure you're very smart at something else though.
Talking about how someone doesn't understand something is all well and good but calling them an idiot because they don't understand it? That's just 100% pure douche bag.
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I think she's an idiot (I'm sure she's verry smart at something else).
Do you understand quantum electrodynamics? no? Then you must be an idiot! I'm sure you're very smart at something else though.
Talking about how someone doesn't understand something is all well and good but calling them an idiot because they don't understand it? That's just 100% pure douche bag.
Perhaps you're right, however, someone in VCE should take the time to read a little about how it works (i estimate only about 2% of people do).
Although I myself do not understand quantum electrodynamics (as i haven't looked into it yet) it's surely more complicated than how the VCE works!
Besides, is the girl not a bit 'rash' in writing a letter to the age, claiming the VCE system has let her down, when she in fact, does not understand the vce system?
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Okay, that's screwed.
IF you have teachers in your school, who mark completely different compared to other teachers, you HAVE to complain, because that will really screw you up.
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I think she's an idiot (I'm sure she's verry smart at something else).
Do you understand quantum electrodynamics? no? Then you must be an idiot! I'm sure you're very smart at something else though.
Talking about how someone doesn't understand something is all well and good but calling them an idiot because they don't understand it? That's just 100% pure douche bag.
yes, I'm an idiot when it comes to quantum eloctrodynamics. That is why I don't write articles about quantum eloctrodynamics or criticise any sectors of the quantum eloctrodynamic community. Nor would I do so with environmental science or with nuclear physics or the russian revolution, and if I chose to write about one of those topics and made fundamental mistakes in my writing then i would need accept criticism from people who do know what they're talking about.
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I think she's an idiot (I'm sure she's verry smart at something else).
Do you understand quantum electrodynamics? no? Then you must be an idiot! I'm sure you're very smart at something else though.
Talking about how someone doesn't understand something is all well and good but calling them an idiot because they don't understand it? That's just 100% pure douche bag.
yes, I'm an idiot when it comes to quantum eloctrodynamics. That is why I don't write articles about quantum eloctrodynamics or criticise any sectors of the quantum eloctrodynamic community. Nor would I do so with environmental science or with nuclear physics or the russian revolution, and if I chose to write about one of those topics and made fundamental mistakes in my writing then i would need accept criticism from people who do know what they're talking about.
0wndddddddddddddd
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I think she's an idiot (I'm sure she's verry smart at something else).
Do you understand quantum electrodynamics? no? Then you must be an idiot! I'm sure you're very smart at something else though.
Talking about how someone doesn't understand something is all well and good but calling them an idiot because they don't understand it? That's just 100% pure douche bag.
yes, I'm an idiot when it comes to quantum eloctrodynamics. That is why I don't write articles about quantum eloctrodynamics or criticise any sectors of the quantum eloctrodynamic community. Nor would I do so with environmental science or with nuclear physics or the russian revolution, and if I chose to write about one of those topics and made fundamental mistakes in my writing then i would need accept criticism from people who do know what they're talking about.
So you understand how the VCE system works then? Explain to me how the current system VCAA and VTAC use is fair to students.
Edit: To clarify: I wasn't attacking you for attacking her letter about the VCE system, it was obvious she didn't understand it. I said what I said regarding your idiot comment which I thought was a bit harsh.
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
My teacher told me that for biology next year there will be two teachers. For the first sac, one teacher marks the whole lot, which would be papers from around 50 kids (heaps of people do biology at my school) and then for the next sac the other teacher would mark that whole lot and then they continue with this pattern. Would this marking style be fair and eliminate any subjectiveness in marking?
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
My teacher told me that for biology next year there will be two teachers. For the first sac, one teacher marks the whole lot, which would be papers from around 50 kids (heaps of people do biology at my school) and then for the next sac the other teacher would mark that whole lot and then they continue with this pattern. Would this marking style be fair and eliminate any subjectiveness in marking?
Within a school, yes, it is the fairest possible way to eliminate subjectivity* in the marking.
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
My teacher told me that for biology next year there will be two teachers. For the first sac, one teacher marks the whole lot, which would be papers from around 50 kids (heaps of people do biology at my school) and then for the next sac the other teacher would mark that whole lot and then they continue with this pattern. Would this marking style be fair and eliminate any subjectiveness in marking?
That wouldn't be a very good way of marking... they're just taking turns, not keeping track of each other's marking methods. SACs need to be crossmarked.
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It's hard to maintain Rank 1 if you have a teacher who marks quite harshly compared to others, as well as teachers favouring other students :'( I Only got full marks for bio once, and there were other teachers handing out full marks like lollies.... I even compared my sacs to other students who got full marks and id say most of mine were better...
Aren't all SACs meant to be cross-marked by 2 teachers to eliminate the effect of biases such as this?
My teacher told me that for biology next year there will be two teachers. For the first sac, one teacher marks the whole lot, which would be papers from around 50 kids (heaps of people do biology at my school) and then for the next sac the other teacher would mark that whole lot and then they continue with this pattern. Would this marking style be fair and eliminate any subjectiveness in marking?
That wouldn't be a very good way of marking... they're just taking turns, not keeping track of each other's marking methods. SACs need to be crossmarked.
hm. is cross marking when two teachers mark your work
EDIT: o dw, i just realized this was already stated above. xD
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^ Well when one teacher marks a SAC then a second teacher marks it again. If the difference between the two scores is more than 2 or 3 marks (I think) it gets remarked by a third teacher.
EDIT: If the English teachers at my school can crossmark 300 essays every two months, then I'm sure your teachers would be able to crossmark 50 Biology SACs pretty comfortably.
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I think she's an idiot (I'm sure she's verry smart at something else).
Do you understand quantum electrodynamics? no? Then you must be an idiot! I'm sure you're very smart at something else though.
Talking about how someone doesn't understand something is all well and good but calling them an idiot because they don't understand it? That's just 100% pure douche bag.
yes, I'm an idiot when it comes to quantum eloctrodynamics. That is why I don't write articles about quantum eloctrodynamics or criticise any sectors of the quantum eloctrodynamic community. Nor would I do so with environmental science or with nuclear physics or the russian revolution, and if I chose to write about one of those topics and made fundamental mistakes in my writing then i would need accept criticism from people who do know what they're talking about.
So you understand how the VCE system works then? Explain to me how the current system VCAA and VTAC use is fair to students.
Edit: To clarify: I wasn't attacking you for attacking her letter about the VCE system, it was obvious she didn't understand it. I said what I said regarding your idiot comment which I thought was a bit harsh.
I believe it's fair to students, obviously there are problems with it (as someone pointed out earlier, the ranking system may fail in a small cohort), but these aren't problems that Ms. Patrik outlined in her letter, she atacked an aspect of the system which i believe is a fair aspect (the process of moderation of cohort's sacs).
EDIT: on seccond thought, you're right. The word idiot is derogatory. I changed it.
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I think this individual wrote her letter in the spur of the moment...but i agree with the people on VN about how you get a false sense of security at your school and you don't know how strong all the other schools are
but i do think schools need to educate students on how the system works so they won't be surprised by their marks :police: (i've never seen anyone use this symbol,so i wanted to make use of it)
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I got an A+ A+ A in legal studies in year 11 and ended up with a 38. Her score does seem a little tough though I agree that students should be better educated about how the system works. I can't speak on behalf of private schools, but in order for public school students to be better informed, I believe that public schools should make more of an effort in ensuring that their teachers themselves actually understand how the system works in the first place.
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Necro displeases Fyrefly.