ATAR Notes: Forum

Administration => Site Discussion => Suggestions => Topic started by: ninwa on January 22, 2011, 08:44:03 am

Title: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: ninwa on January 22, 2011, 08:44:03 am
Title self explanatory...

After talking about this with mods... justifications:
- unnecessarily creates "hierarchies", differentiates members
- bruised egos from negative karma
- a silly way of judging someone's contribution to the forum considering half the karma given out is for stuff like making a funny/rude rather than helpful post

Suggestions/comments please
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: vea on January 22, 2011, 08:47:50 am
You have some valid ideas there but I use karma to thank people that help me instead of posting to thank them which in turn may create unnecessary spam and clog up the forums.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 08:53:16 am
Karma should be removed from mods only - their mods, self-explanatory, they don't need karma.
(don't think you can karma enwiabe anyway?)

Keep the karma for normal members but you can't karma people with under 50 posts since they can't karma you back and they may feel intimidated by receiving negative.

^^ solves vea's issue aswell or you can just drop a PM "thanks".
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: IntoTheNewWorld on January 22, 2011, 09:24:49 am
Yes please. I fail to see what Karma contributes to the site.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Eriny on January 22, 2011, 09:31:13 am
Karma should be removed from mods only - their mods, self-explanatory, they don't need karma.
(don't think you can karma enwiabe anyway?)

I disagree. I think that you should be able to judge mods as much as you can judge normal members.

I hardly ever karma people, which is why I assume my karma is so low for someone who has been around for so long, since a lot of karma is 'karma-ing back'. I think it's pointless though I do like to know which of my posts others liked so much that they did something about it, but surely there are better ways to do this. Additionally, if you want to thank someone you can send them a PM, it's more meaningful that way anyway.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: eeps on January 22, 2011, 09:33:58 am
For the reasons listed in OP, in my opinion removing karma would be valid. Especially after this thread a while back. I think in that thread the original poster/member had under 50 posts at the time of posting and she felt the need to make a thread about "Karma b**ches on VN" after receiving negative karma from other member. I think karma has lost its' intended original purpose. Hence, it's hard to judge whether a member is really helpful or not. That's just me.

Quote from: kyzoo December 10, 2010, 01:25:53 PM
You have so much karma that it doesn't matter to you anymore =/ -1 or +1 doesn't make any difference at all to you. But for people who are new and haven't got much karma, each +1 or -1 matters a lot.

Kind of like money: when you're poor $20 is a significant amount to you, and you are very reluctant to spend that amount. Yet when you are wealthier, $20 means nothing, and you wouldn't even care if you lost a $20 note to the wind or something like that.

I agree with that as well.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 09:34:58 am
Karma should be removed from mods only - their mods, self-explanatory, they don't need karma.
(don't think you can karma enwiabe anyway?)

I disagree. I think that you should be able to judge mods as much as you can judge normal members.

I hardly ever karma people, which is why I assume my karma is so low for someone who has been around for so long, since a lot of karma is 'karma-ing back'. I think it's pointless though I do like to know which of my posts others liked so much that they did something about it, but surely there are better ways to do this. Additionally, if you want to thank someone you can send them a PM, it's more meaningful that way anyway.
That's the problem though - mods are mods, no-one's going to treat you like a normal member. Whether you would like to believe it or not - to negative karma a mod takes balls and you are certainly not treated as a normal member.

Anyways I wrote that because I was expecting outrage over the eradication of karma but the best option would be to just eliminate it.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: zomgSEAN on January 22, 2011, 09:36:26 am
Change it so we have to write an extensive essay about why the certain user deserves a karma change for the given post. This essay will be reviewed by a newly employed KARMA MODERATOR, and must be of sound reasoning and structure in order for the karma change to be declared valid.

That'll stop silly +/-karma, whilst improving users' english abilities,

Ha.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Water on January 22, 2011, 09:42:57 am
Change it so we have to write an extensive essay about why the certain user deserves a karma change for the given post. This essay will be reviewed by a newly employed KARMA MODERATOR, and must be of sound reasoning and structure in order for the karma change to be declared valid.

That'll stop silly +/-karma, whilst improving users' english abilities,

Ha.

An essay for every karma given? Thats a lot of reading for a uni student.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: shinny on January 22, 2011, 09:47:31 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: zomgSEAN on January 22, 2011, 09:48:40 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?

+1
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 09:50:35 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
-1

There really is no novelty in the system left. People are just + karma-ing their friends, funny/rude posts and it's not truly reflective of a 'helpful poster' at all.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: shinny on January 22, 2011, 09:54:29 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
-1

There really is no novelty in the system left. People are just + karma-ing their friends, funny/rude posts and it's not truly reflective of a 'helpful poster' at all.

Hence why I said hide the karma count, and just let it be a way to thank someone or screw around with as they please as we can't exactly police it and say 'THAT'S NOT WORTHY OF A + KARMA'. It'll largely just be a novelty system, but at least it won't influence how other, often newer members perceive others.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 09:55:47 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
-1

There really is no novelty in the system left. People are just + karma-ing their friends, funny/rude posts and it's not truly reflective of a 'helpful poster' at all.

Hence why I said hide the karma count, and just let it be a way to thank someone or screw around with as they please as we can't exactly police it and say 'THAT'S NOT WORTHY OF A + KARMA'. It'll largely just be a novelty system, but at least it won't influence how other, often newer members perceive others.
How exactly do you 'hide' it and how hard would it be to 'find' it?
IMO if you want to do this properly either keep the system (with changes) or eliminate it completely.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: shinny on January 22, 2011, 09:59:19 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
-1

There really is no novelty in the system left. People are just + karma-ing their friends, funny/rude posts and it's not truly reflective of a 'helpful poster' at all.

Hence why I said hide the karma count, and just let it be a way to thank someone or screw around with as they please as we can't exactly police it and say 'THAT'S NOT WORTHY OF A + KARMA'. It'll largely just be a novelty system, but at least it won't influence how other, often newer members perceive others.
How exactly do you 'hide' it and how hard would it be to 'find' it?
IMO if you want to do this properly either keep the system (with changes) or eliminate it completely.

Hide from the left hand side and make it only viewable in the profile through the 'Who changed my karma' button.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Ghost! on January 22, 2011, 10:00:12 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?

Shinny got it exactly right. Removing the negative aspect of karma eliminates the majority of problems.

If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
-1

There really is no novelty in the system left. People are just + karma-ing their friends, funny/rude posts and it's not truly reflective of a 'helpful poster' at all.

Genuine participating members of the forum, who come to share school experiences and advice for fellow students, don't karma their friends. It's usually on breezy people who join for a while but quit before they get to 100 posts, and no one really cares about their karma count at all.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: sgeorge on January 22, 2011, 10:09:53 am
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?

+1

+2 :)
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 10:11:08 am
Hide from the left hand side and make it only viewable in the profile through the 'Who changed my karma' button.
So what is this solving? I'm confused :S

It just takes more time for a member to go check someone's profile...but the same system is still there :S
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: shinny on January 22, 2011, 10:15:22 am
Hide from the left hand side and make it only viewable in the profile through the 'Who changed my karma' button.
So what is this solving? I'm confused :S

It just takes more time for a member to go check someone's profile...but the same system is still there :S

No member is going to go through everyone's profiles and check their karma count. Not the new members anyway, and that stops the whole (possibly misleading) impression associated with high karma counts. Keeping it hidden allows you to just a way to keep track of your own, or stalk someone else's if you're really that interested. What exactly are the problems with the karma system that you see then? From the one's Nina's given:

After talking about this with mods... justifications:
- unnecessarily creates "hierarchies", differentiates members
- bruised egos from negative karma
- a silly way of judging someone's contribution to the forum considering half the karma given out is for stuff like making a funny/rude rather than helpful post

What I've said should solve all of the above if it works as planned.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: ninwa on January 22, 2011, 10:19:18 am
I think that should be quite possible (David's said it's possible to hide post count from profiles in threads, so I don't see how karma would be any different)
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 10:22:15 am
Fair enough.

It won't solve the last one though - you just keep +karma'ing someone for the hell of it (found it funny, your friend etc)

Also atm we have at least 20 regular VN users/posters who basically know which members are associated with high karma and what not and the hierarchy will still remain.

What type of new member with 0 karma is going to argue with a person with 800? (believe it or not, being a new member is exciting and checking peoples' karma is somewhat entertaining :P)

And if they somehow summon the balls to, other users will slam this member - "Oh you noob, respect this guy, he's been on the fourm for a long time..."

Can you explain to me what's wrong with totally eliminating the system? Surely it can't be that hard to drop a quick 'thanks' through PM.

Yes please. I fail to see what Karma contributes to the site.
I second this.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: shinny on January 22, 2011, 10:32:12 am
Fair enough.

It won't solve the last one though - you just keep +karma'ing someone for the hell of it (found it funny, your friend etc)

Also atm we have at least 20 regular VN users/posters who basically know which members are associated with high karma and what not and the hierarchy will still remain.

What type of new member with 0 karma is going to argue with a person with 800? (believe it or not, being a new member is exciting and checking people's karma is somewhat entertaining :P)

And if they somehow summon the balls to, other users will slam this member - "Oh you noob, respect this guy, he's been on the fourm for a long time..."

Can you explain to me what's wrong with totally eliminating the system? Surely it can't be that hard to drop a quick 'thanks' through PM.

Yes please. I fail to see what Karma contributes to the site.
I second this.

It solves the last one not by preventing silly karmas, but by preventing people by judging others on them in the first place. And I don't know whether you're qualified to be speaking on behalf of everyone else. And I know that I'm not either, but I've never personally considered karma to be a factor. Perhaps post count to an extent, but definitely not karma. And I don't know where you're getting the idea that everyone follows those with high karma. I've never seen this happen. Most of us are smart enough on this forum to argue against ideas rather than have a go at people's karma counts. I mean look, you're having a go at my ideas right now. I don't see my karma stopping you and that's the way it should be.

As for eliminating the system, I don't really mind. Was offering an alternative to doing this which some might favour instead since some like having the system in place just for a bit of fun. PMs would be quite annoying though, and most people wouldn't bother with that since it's a bit too personal.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 10:36:55 am
Not quoting because it's way too big -.-

I'm contesting your ideas...but am I a new member? :S

Honestly fine I'll speak for myself - a new member with 0 posts and 0 karma is going to contest a moderator's 800 karma ideas?
Really - I just can't see that happening at all.

You don't consider karma to be a factor because you have plenty...it's as kyzoo said - the whole one dollar, twenty dollar quote.

If no-one really minds, eliminating karma seems the best option - it contributes nothing, and as you said it's just "a bit of fun".


EDIT: Here.



Quote from: kyzoo December 10, 2010, 01:25:53 PM
You have so much karma that it doesn't matter to you anymore =/ -1 or +1 doesn't make any difference at all to you. But for people who are new and haven't got much karma, each +1 or -1 matters a lot.

Kind of like money: when you're poor $20 is a significant amount to you, and you are very reluctant to spend that amount. Yet when you are wealthier, $20 means nothing, and you wouldn't even care if you lost a $20 note to the wind or something like that.

I agree with that as well.

Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 10:42:12 am
Just butting in here, but isn't karma just for fun? I really don't think it creates and hierarchies or damages anyone's ego. I don't think many users take it seriously, and those that do usually have under 100 posts anyway and don't really have a good 'feel' of the forum yet.

I don't mind keeping the system, as it just adds a bit extra to the forum.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Ghost! on January 22, 2011, 10:43:11 am
Not quoting because it's way too big -.-

I'm contesting your ideas...but am I a new member? :S


Honestly fine I'll speak for myself - a new member with 0 posts and 0 karma is going to contest a moderator's 800 karma ideas?
Really - I just can't see that happening at all.

You don't consider karma to be a factor because you have plenty...it's as kyzoo said - the whole one dollar, twenty dollar quote.

If no-one really minds, eliminating karma seems the best option - it contributes nothing, and as you said it's just "a bit of fun".


EDIT: Here.



Quote from: kyzoo December 10, 2010, 01:25:53 PM
You have so much karma that it doesn't matter to you anymore =/ -1 or +1 doesn't make any difference at all to you. But for people who are new and haven't got much karma, each +1 or -1 matters a lot.

Kind of like money: when you're poor $20 is a significant amount to you, and you are very reluctant to spend that amount. Yet when you are wealthier, $20 means nothing, and you wouldn't even care if you lost a $20 note to the wind or something like that.

I agree with that as well.



Yes, but what your talking about is time. You feel comfortable debating with senior members because you yourself have been active for a considerable time, but that comes down to post count/time active. In this debate, about karma, Shinny and Ninwa both out strip you in karma by a huge amount, yet you don't seem remotely bothered to argue with them, contradicted your argument that people with lower karma are intimated to argue with those with copious amounts.

But, why remove something that's fun? Enjoying your time here is the main reason to visit the forum.

Edit - Excuse my poor grammar/spelling, I'm too tired.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 10:46:04 am
No it's because I know karma means jack-all and I actually quite enjoy debating with senior members, it's quite entertaining :P

A new member treasures karma and feels it is important.
Recent example? Bonifaco asked everyone that neg-karma'd him to retract it - sending off PM's, posts etc.

Fair enough, keep it for it's 'novelty', or what's left of it anyway.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 10:48:08 am
But, why remove something that's fun? Enjoying your time here is the main reason to visit the forum.

+1, karma is for fun after all!

No it's because I know karma means jack-all and I actually quite enjoy debating with senior members, it's quite entertaining :P

A new member treasures karma.
Recent example? Bonifaco asked everyone that neg-karma'd him to retract it - sending off PM's, posts etc.

Fair enough, keep it hidden then.

My response:
Just butting in here, but isn't karma just for fun? I really don't think it creates and hierarchies or damages anyone's ego. I don't think many users take it seriously, and those that do usually have under 100 posts anyway and don't really have a good 'feel' of the forum yet.

I don't mind keeping the system, as it just adds a bit extra to the forum.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 10:49:31 am
My response:
Just butting in here, but isn't karma just for fun? I really don't think it creates and hierarchies or damages anyone's ego. I don't think many users take it seriously, and those that do usually have under 100 posts anyway and don't really have a good 'feel' of the forum yet.


I don't mind keeping the system, as it just adds a bit extra to the forum.
Uh, that's the problem - you scare away the new members and it does damage their ego (Bonifaco).
But that's irrelevant now because they're proposing to eradicate negative karma.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: shinny on January 22, 2011, 10:50:59 am
No it's because I know karma means jack-all and I actually quite enjoy debating with senior members, it's quite entertaining :P

A new member treasures karma and feels it is important.
Recent example? Bonifaco asked everyone that neg-karma'd him to retract it - sending off PM's, posts etc.

Fair enough, keep it for it's 'novelty', or what's left of it anyway.

Neg karma is definitely something that means something. It's basically an attack of sorts. Hence why I want to get rid of it altogether. But positive karma...I don't think it changes much at all. New members might think it does, and that's why I'm suggesting to hide it.

EDIT:
But that's irrelevant now because they're proposing to eradicate negative karma.

Typed the above before you posted this; don't worry.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 11:01:54 am
Just as a side note, won't removing -ve karma defeat the purpose of the word 'karma'. Might as well remove the whole system if the plans are to remove half of it... Keeping half (+ve) wouldn't be 'karma' then, then it would be more like 'brownie points' (which would look lame on someone's profile btw).
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:04:15 am
Just as a side note, won't removing -ve karma defeat the purpose of the word 'karma'. Might as well remove the whole system if the plans are to remove half of it... Keeping half (+ve) wouldn't be 'karma' then, then it would be more like 'brownie points' (which would look lame on someone's profile btw).
I would tend to be agree but than they are bringing up the issue of clogging up the forum with "thanks" and Shinny proposes that PM's would get annoying and too personal.

Or maybe there could be a button next to the person's posts (like the quote button) which says "Thanks" and this is hyperlinked to go to the person's inbox! (is that even possible?!)

And and, if your worried about PM clutter, can you make a separate folder/inbox for "THANKS" PM's (which you wouldn't even read :P)
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Ghost! on January 22, 2011, 11:04:48 am
Just as a side note, won't removing -ve karma defeat the purpose of the word 'karma'. Might as well remove the whole system if the plans are to remove half of it... Keeping half (+ve) wouldn't be 'karma' then, then it would be more like 'brownie points' (which would look lame on someone's profile btw).

I was actually just thinking of a similar scheme, if we changed the name from karma to something people were less inclined the be concerned with, although I've got no suggestions.

I don't think we really need to change anything, but if we do I guess we should remove the negative karma action.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: _avO on January 22, 2011, 11:05:19 am
'Like' next to the comment :)
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Cianyx on January 22, 2011, 11:05:48 am
I support this notion. I'll read the other comments later
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: EvangelionZeta on January 22, 2011, 11:06:25 am
Copypasta from another post I made:

"I think getting rid of karma (as a whole!) is a good idea.  It's barely an indicator of anything nowadays - heaps of people just karma their friends to inflate each others' e-pees, and really it seems almost a remnant of the Sweet Nothings era."
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: ninwa on January 22, 2011, 11:07:02 am
have added a poll
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:07:23 am
Slow it down Ninwa.

What's wrong with my/_avO's idea about placing a "like" or "thanks" button?
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Russ on January 22, 2011, 11:09:20 am
'Like' next to the comment :)

There are "thanks" mods that do this
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: burbs on January 22, 2011, 11:17:21 am
CBF arguing the other stuff but make sure you don't have it so there is a system of pming thanks. Thats just plain annoying.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 11:20:50 am
CBF arguing the other stuff but make sure you don't have it so there is a system of pming thanks. Thats just plain annoying.

+1, don't want to clog up my inbox too
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:21:58 am
CBF arguing the other stuff but make sure you don't have it so there is a system of pming thanks. Thats just plain annoying.

+1, don't want to clog up my inbox too

And and, if your worried about PM clutter, can you make a separate folder/inbox for "THANKS" PM's (which you wouldn't even read :P)

Guess that would be too much work though - just remove the system lol.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 11:22:23 am
Just as a side note, won't removing -ve karma defeat the purpose of the word 'karma'. Might as well remove the whole system if the plans are to remove half of it... Keeping half (+ve) wouldn't be 'karma' then, then it would be more like 'brownie points' (which would look lame on someone's profile btw).

Yes but it's not exactly like it is used proportionately. I doubt anyone negatively karmas more than they positively karma.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Cianyx on January 22, 2011, 11:23:58 am
You don't even have to PM a thanks. What difference would it make if you posted your thanks in the thread. That way, it can be made clear that you have acknowledged the assistance given by the helpee and other users would be more inclined to offer assistance in the near future. Isn't that what we do in real life anyway? If someone offers us assistance, we do not pull them to the side to whisper a thanks, instead, we exclaim it to show our gratitude.

Anyway, as EZ said. This entire thing is a pissing contest anyway. Even if you removed the -ve karma it would remain so
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:24:52 am
You don't even have to PM a thanks. What difference would it make if you posted your thanks in the thread. That way, it can be made clear that you have acknowledged the assistance given by the helpee and other users would be more inclined to offer assistance in the near future. Isn't that what we do in real life anyway? If someone offers us assistance, we do not pull them to the side to whisper a thanks, instead, we exclaim it to show our gratitude.
Practicality...clogging up...spam...this isn't reality.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 11:27:59 am
A "thanks" allows the topic to progress. If it is not followed up with another question it sort of signals that the query has been adequately addressed. Now that I think about it I've never seen a "thanks" interfering with a thread. What does one line do to clog up a thread?
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Cianyx on January 22, 2011, 11:28:19 am
This isn't Facebook either. I don't see how mentioning a 'thanks' when someone provides assistance would count as spam.
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:30:14 am
A "thanks" allows the topic to progress. If it is not followed up with another question it sort of signals that the query has been adequately addressed. Now that I think about it I've never seen a "thanks" interfering with a thread. What does one line do to clog up a thread?
More than one poster contributes to a thread - your looking at ~5-10 thanks per thread...
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: burbs on January 22, 2011, 11:30:22 am
false
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: Cianyx on January 22, 2011, 11:31:20 am
"Thanks everyone", "cheers guys", "thanks for the help" etc.

Online forum etiquette 101
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 11:32:10 am
Just as a side note, won't removing -ve karma defeat the purpose of the word 'karma'. Might as well remove the whole system if the plans are to remove half of it... Keeping half (+ve) wouldn't be 'karma' then, then it would be more like 'brownie points' (which would look lame on someone's profile btw).

Yes but it's not exactly like it is used proportionately. I doubt anyone negatively karmas more than they positively karma.

That's true, but usually people only give -ve karma if someone's really being an idiot or a pain (which is rare on a forum like this). On most other forums, only mods have positive karma!

And its probably not being used proportionally because there is random +ve karma going around for no apparent reason sometimes... (which is fine as the system is for fun and really doesn't mean anything to members over 6 months or so). My comment was that keeping half the system would be stupid to call it karma.

A "thanks" allows the topic to progress. If it is not followed up with another question it sort of signals that the query has been adequately addressed. Now that I think about it I've never seen a "thanks" interfering with a thread. What does one line do to clog up a thread?

I would agree with that view, a 'thanks' system would be better than removing half of 'karma' (although 50 thanks in a row in a thread would be a bit ridiculous...)
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 11:35:36 am
A "thanks" allows the topic to progress. If it is not followed up with another question it sort of signals that the query has been adequately addressed. Now that I think about it I've never seen a "thanks" interfering with a thread. What does one line do to clog up a thread?
More than one poster contributes to a thread - your looking at ~5-10 thanks per thread...

I've never seen someone's karma go up by 5 to 10.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:36:37 am
A "thanks" allows the topic to progress. If it is not followed up with another question it sort of signals that the query has been adequately addressed. Now that I think about it I've never seen a "thanks" interfering with a thread. What does one line do to clog up a thread?
More than one poster contributes to a thread - your looking at ~5-10 thanks per thread...

I've never seen someone's karma go up by 5 to 10.
I don't follow? Karma? I meant you'd have 5-10 posters saying "thanks" and that would fill up a page.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 11:37:27 am


Yes but it's not exactly like it is used proportionately. I doubt anyone negatively karmas more than they positively karma.

That's true, but usually people only give -ve karma if someone's really being an idiot or a pain (which is rare on a forum like this). On most other forums, only mods have positive karma!

And its probably not being used proportionally because there is random +ve karma going around for no apparent reason sometimes... (which is fine as the system is for fun and really doesn't mean anything to members over 6 months or so). My comment was that keeping half the system would be stupid to call it karma.

Yeah that's fair enough then, it would seem silly :)
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: werdna on January 22, 2011, 11:39:18 am
IMO, the VN karma system is similar to the Facebook 'like' system. For the most part, we -ve karma people and we 'like' someone's wall status either to show that we found their post funny or in the case of Facebook 'likes', we just want to reaffirm our friendship with them - this last part sounds wacky, but it's kind of true. The VN karma system goes a step further, I think, in that it allows people to thank each other for their help and so on. BUT, it is largely a pointless system.

Let me explain my point:

There are people whose Facebook statuses garner an average of around 30 'likes'. These statuses are by no means academically-inspired, useful or handy in everyday life, they are just people's attempts at being comedic in their approach. Point is, most of the time, and I reiterate, most of the time, we 'like' a status and we +ve karma a person not because their posts were worthwhile or valuable, but because they were witty or facetious.

However, in saying this, I know for sure that there are plentyyy of members on VN who do earn their karma points. To name a few - shinny, EZ and TrueTears. And also in response to ATAR's suggestion that we implement a 'like' or 'thanks' button, I don't see how this is any different to the earlier suggestion that we have only a +ve karma button, and no -ve karma button. It's practically the same thing, and saves the admins the time and effort going into making a separate inbox just for one-lined 'thanks' messages, and saves members time going through each one - when in fact it's already convenient through the karma system.

And  :o :o 9 new replies.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 11:40:22 am
A "thanks" allows the topic to progress. If it is not followed up with another question it sort of signals that the query has been adequately addressed. Now that I think about it I've never seen a "thanks" interfering with a thread. What does one line do to clog up a thread?
More than one poster contributes to a thread - your looking at ~5-10 thanks per thread...

I've never seen someone's karma go up by 5 to 10.
I don't follow? Karma? I meant you'd have 5-10 posters saying "thanks" and that would fill up a page.

Yeah but what I'm saying is if this was to supplant karma I don't think there would be a massive influx of thankers.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 11:40:47 am
As long as we don't get thread like this (as an example of excessive 'thanks'), it would be fine.

(although that thread was pretty funny)
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: werdna on January 22, 2011, 11:42:37 am
A 'thanks' system would work well too - just hope that every thread doesn't become a clone of one of this thread.  ;D Good idea though! It's plain and simple - it's a given that we respect others on a forum and appreciate their help. We all unknowingly accepted this notion when we signed up to this forum, and I guess a 'thanks' system in the actual threads would help to accentuate this.

EDIT: Rohitpi you beat me to it.  >:(
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:43:51 am
A 'thanks' system would work well too - just hope that every thread doesn't become a clone of one of this thread.  ;D Good idea though! It's plain and simple - it's a given that we respect others on a forum and appreciate their help. We all unknowingly accepted this notion when we signed up to this forum, and I guess a 'thanks' system in the actual threads would help to accentuate this.

EDIT: Rohitpi you beat me to it.  >:(
What the....? In your previous post you just bagged my system and said it was no different to leaving + karma without negative and now your saying the system would work? :S

And also in response to ATAR's suggestion that we implement a 'like' or 'thanks' button, I don't see how this is any different to the earlier suggestion that we have only a +ve karma button, and no -ve karma button. It's practically the same thing, and saves the admins the time and effort going into making a separate inbox just for one-lined 'thanks' messages, and saves members time going through each one - when in fact it's already convenient through the karma system.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 11:44:36 am
Lmao at that thread. I love it.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 11:47:03 am
What about people posting things that are not 'thanks' in reply to a particular post, eg 'thanks for that useless bit of info' or even simply '-1'. The topic would most certainly go off-topic after a negative response to a post. I think -ve karma wins in that area (less threads off-topic because of it being there)
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: werdna on January 22, 2011, 11:47:19 am
Well, think of it this way. A +ve karma button system would be easy to set up (I assume). A 'thanks' system in the threads would require no implementation effort whatsoever - it's human nature for people to say 'thanks' and so it's already happening in the forums right now. Having a discreet 'thanks' system would just help reinforce the code of conduct this site has. Your system, however, would be tough to implement I would imagine.. and besides, the 'like' button is probably copyrighted by Facebook anyway. ;D
Title: Re: Remove karma system
Post by: Cappuccinos on January 22, 2011, 11:48:13 am

If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:49:05 am

If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?

In an idealistic world - who's going to monitor the karma? A 'karma moderator'? :P
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: werdna on January 22, 2011, 11:50:23 am

If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?


Good idea! ATAR, there would be no need for a Karma Mod, because the pre-set options would already be 'reasonable' ones, because the admins would have chosen/made them.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 11:50:47 am

If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?


Good idea! ATAR, there would be no need for a Karma Mod, because the pre-set options would already be 'reasonable' ones, because the admins would have chosen/made them.
Facepalm. Skim read over it, didn't see the pre-set. Actually an interesting idea...
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: pi on January 22, 2011, 11:51:21 am
In light of ATAR's post (three posts ago)

Bringing in this from Mod Applications 2010:
Finishing VCE 2012

and i want to be the first ever specific, Troll Patrol mod, keeping things in order in that area, sort of like security
OR if not -
a Karma Alarma mod, making sure people are giving karma for the right reasons or not giving karma for the right reasons
 :)


The issue has been 'raised' before but no action was taken
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: ninwa on January 22, 2011, 11:53:16 am

If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?


I love this idea!
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: iNerd on January 22, 2011, 12:03:38 pm

If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?


I love this idea!
This is a great idea but the topic has moved off from the hierarchy point.
You should combo the hidden shinny thing with the pre-set options so new members aren't influenced by karma.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: lexitu on January 22, 2011, 12:56:07 pm
I love it too! Think it works well for those wanting to give a quick thank you and also gives more informative data on the sort of help people are giving. Obviously it could be abused but that's the same with anything. And people can still give a more meaningful thank you in the thread/PM if they wish. How hard do you think it will be to implement?

True, it has moved a bit off the hierarchy so your point of having it hidden could contribute to negating that.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: Cianyx on January 22, 2011, 01:00:37 pm
In an idealistic world - who's going to monitor the karma? A 'karma moderator'? :P
Karma Police (http://www.bikemagic.com/forum/smilies/eye_rolling_smiley.gif)

What about people posting things that are not 'thanks' in reply to a particular post, eg 'thanks for that useless bit of info' or even simply '-1'. The topic would most certainly go off-topic after a negative response to a post. I think -ve karma wins in that area (less threads off-topic because of it being there)
How often really does that happen and what would stop it from happening in any other situation? Keep in mind, saying thanks is not a system. It's just basic human courtesy.

I've never seen the karma add-on as a necessary feature. I frequent a lot of forums (easily in the double digits) and virtually none of them feature a 'karma system'. Yet, all of the member manage to maintain a somewhat mutual respect for one another as well as forming a chain of seniority.

Moderator action: removed real name, sorry for the inconvenience
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: burbs on January 22, 2011, 02:26:46 pm
I remember Radiohead had a similar problem with monitoring karma
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: Ghost! on January 22, 2011, 02:43:23 pm
I love it too! Think it works well for those wanting to give a quick thank you and also gives more informative data on the sort of help people are giving. Obviously it could be abused but that's the same with anything. And people can still give a more meaningful thank you in the thread/PM if they wish. How hard do you think it will be to implement?

True, it has moved a bit off the hierarchy so your point of having it hidden could contribute to negating that.

I like this the idea of preselected reasons for giving karma is a great idea, but I'm surprised no one raised the possibility of people simply abusing the feature (except lex of course)

In the end people that just spam their friends with karma are just going to pick the reason randomly.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: werdna on January 22, 2011, 03:43:56 pm
On second thoughts, I say just scrap the whole system. To replace the +ve karma-ing, we can just go by the norm and say different variants of 'thank you' messages within the thread. To replace the -ve karma-ing, there is already the 'report' button. This prevents small and meaningless quibbles from branching out to big, uncontrollable quibbles - so whenever we see a rude or offensive post, just report it, and leave it to the admins/mods to deal with I think. So, scrap the karma system because the alternative is already there - we don't need to implement anything new.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: Fyrefly on January 22, 2011, 03:50:01 pm

tl;dr... I got bored after page two.

I like option three: leave karma visible, but ditch negative karma.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: vexx on January 22, 2011, 04:22:21 pm
If you want to keep the novelty of the system, then just keep the + karma. The negatives create more trouble than they're worth. I've seen arguments break out unnecessarily over that crap -_-" I think the + karma is still a nice token to have though as it avoids having to flood the entire forum with 'Thanks' posts. Perhaps just hide the karma count from the left hand side and make it profile-viewable only?
/agreed.
I voted option 4- keep karma, get rid of negative, and make it profile page only rather than shown on threads. Though, I've never really been a big karma person anyway..

I remember Radiohead had a similar problem with monitoring karma

hahahaha
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: Mao on January 23, 2011, 05:47:38 pm
Why don't we have an option like many other sites, where we rate a particular post (and negative rating hides it)? Then somewhere in the profile page have a stats page of how many posts rated up, average rating, etc etc.

A step further will be to have two thumbs-up options, one for useful/helpful posts, another for lulz.
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: werdna on January 23, 2011, 05:53:19 pm
Why don't we have an option like many other sites, where we rate a particular post (and negative rating hides it)? Then somewhere in the profile page have a stats page of how many posts rated up, average rating, etc etc.

A step further will be to have two thumbs-up options, one for useful/helpful posts, another for lulz.

I like both ideas. :P
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: slothpomba on January 23, 2011, 06:12:38 pm
I think we should keep karma, some of my karma is from funny posts and things like that but a lot of it is from making helpful posts and answering other peoples questions.

I kinda like getting karma for the questions i answer and sometimes, in certain situations i think negative karma is useful to give to trolls and things like that. Fair enough are giving negative karma willy nilly which is bad but it doesn't seem highly prevalent to me.

I think we should just keep it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I don't know if replacing it with a thanks button is a feasible option?


If you were to keep the karma system, maybe have pre-set reasons to choose from instead of writing your own?
Like 'Helpful/Informative post thanks!' or 'Unnecessarily Rude/Offensive post' etc.  instead of  '...' or 'lol'  as reasons?
Maybe that would stop the unnecessary karma?


I love this idea!

Not sure if this idea is technically feasible either but it still is a good idea)
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: ninwa on January 25, 2011, 08:28:16 pm
Given the support for keeping it as is, we'll leave it be for the time being and investigate other options (such as the thanks button).
Title: Re: POLL: Remove karma system
Post by: jaccerz on January 26, 2011, 12:19:19 am
i think karma should stay, but then i havent read the full 6 pages of this thread.

I dont think Karma itself can be blamed for the attitude and atmosphere on here, I think there are just a bunch of egotistical members on here who need to realise they dont dictate the rules on here, or the hierarchies of members.

Although Karma isnt something I use very often on here, but i think its a good way to pull a member back into line when they are getting too cocky.

but then there are people who do abuse it, and maybe members who abuse it, should be put into their own member groups on here with the permissions changed so they cant give or receive karma.