ATAR Notes: Forum
Administration => Announcements => Topic started by: enwiabe on June 26, 2011, 05:04:54 pm
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N.B. The eagle-eyed among you will notice that we are 'missing' step 3). We aren't. It's coming. It's almost ready, but like the tutoring section we're just waiting on a damn layout!
LOOKING FOR EXAM WRITERS TO PRODUCE PAPERS FOR 2011 END OF YEAR EXAMS. Applications close July 8, 2011 and the earlier you apply the better.
What is this this?
This idea has been floating around VN/AN forever in unofficial form. I'm now attempting to create a publishing arm for ATARNotes (could eventually lead to textbooks, other things etc.) and the first step in this is to start manufacturing trial exams.
Will they be free for AN members?
All writers writing practice exams for their subjects will have to write at least TWO sets of practice exams. The reason being that, yes, for every subject for which we manufacture practice exams, there will be AT LEAST one set per subject available to members for free.
How much will it cost? Are you going to be making money from this?
The specific pricing has not yet been finalised and will be worked out in conjunction with the writers and the ATARNotes staff. We will be making money from this. In an ideal world, money wouldn't exist etc. But the only way that you're going to get the free set of exams is if there are commercial ones being sold to pay the writers. That said, we will be undercutting the cost of resources from competitor companies considerably in order to make them as affordable as possible. And that's not just to get our name out there in the first year. We'll keep doing that year after year in line with our mission statement and ethos :)
How do I get involved in this?
Please apply ASAP if you're interested. We're looking to kick this off this year!
There are no hard and fast criteria like "x" study score required. But we will be very selective. Please send a resume and a cover letter to [email protected] and CC [email protected] to apply to be a writer. The resume should include all relevant experience like study scores, relevant education and work experience and so on. The cover letter should be about why you're going to be an amazing exam writer etc. You can also send examples of similar past work.
In the e-mail itself you should use the following template:
Subject: Exam Writer Application
Message body:
Name:
Forum Username:
Subjects:
Note: If you're reading this and do not have an account, then leave 'forum username' blank
Note 2: Subjects refers only to the subjects you're applying to WRITE for.
What will I get out of this if I become a writer?
- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
- Your name in bold on the front of the exam papers you write along with your e-mail and/or website underneath (great for spreading your reptuation within the VCE community)
- A wonderful addition to your resume.
Some ideas I need from everyone!
We're going to have an e-store to sell the papers. But I want to be able to reach people without electronic means of payment or have parents who are hesitant to use them. I'd like to set up shop somewhere in the city once a week (on a Saturday/Sunday) and sell to people who want to buy them in person. Does anyone know where I could potentially rent a temporary shop front like this once a week?
I'd also like to welcome any and all feedback you guys might have about this!
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Is it possible to apply to join this scheme next year too (ie. after the class of 2011 finishes VCE)?
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Is it possible to apply to join this scheme next year too (ie. after the class of 2011 finishes VCE)?
We'll hopefully be doing this every year from now on :)
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We will be making money from this.
- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
Can we set aside a percentage of the money earned to be donated to an education based charity? I will happily find a worthwhile one.
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We will be making money from this.
- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
Can we set aside a percentage of the money earned to be donated to an education based charity? I will happily find a worthwhile one.
Once ATARNotes is liquid, we're going to establish our own scholarship fund to send kids who can't afford it to uni.
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We will be making money from this.
- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
Can we set aside a percentage of the money earned to be donated to an education based charity? I will happily find a worthwhile one.
Once ATARNotes is liquid, we're going to establish our own scholarship fund to send kids who can't afford it to uni.
I'd assume that's a while down the road though, whilst these are going to be generating profit much sooner.
If we set this label up as socially responsible and ethical it will go a long way. Currently I hear a lot of people complaining about how these other exam companies are just looking for money and scaremongering to get it.
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We will be making money from this.
- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
Can we set aside a percentage of the money earned to be donated to an education based charity? I will happily find a worthwhile one.
Once ATARNotes is liquid, we're going to establish our own scholarship fund to send kids who can't afford it to uni.
I'd assume that's a while down the road though, whilst these are going to be generating profit much sooner.
If we set this label up as socially responsible and ethical it will go a long way. Currently I hear a lot of people complaining about how these other exam companies are just looking for money and scaremongering to get it.
Jee that's not fair :P We don't really have any money at the moment. I haven't taken a cent out of the AN kitty in the 4 years I've run it. It's all been spent on improving it and making it better. You're just going to have to trust that I -am- socially responsible (I am). Charity will come, but we have to actually have some money to give away first :P At the moment, any money we make is sitting there as capital to fund improvements to the site. In the case of these practice exams, it will cover startup costs for printing the exams and distributing them etc.
When I start taking a salary, that is when we'll start donating to charity.
Also in regard to social and ethical conscience. I can't believe I forgot to put it in the original post (will amend that to include it now) but we are going to make the commercial exams very cheap for both schools and individuals to buy.
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Some ideas I need from everyone!
We're going to have an e-store to sell the papers. But I want to be able to reach people without electronic means of payment or have parents who are hesitant to use them. I'd like to set up shop somewhere in the city once a week (on a Saturday/Sunday) and sell to people who want to buy them in person. Does anyone know where I could potentially rent a temporary shop front like this once a week?
I'd also like to welcome any and all feedback you guys might have about this!
It might be easier (and cheaper :P) to apply for a temporary street stall somewhere in the city (maybe outside Academic and General on holidays?).
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/enterprisemelbourne/industries/hospitality/streetstalls/Pages/StreetStalls.aspx
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/enterprisemelbourne/industries/hospitality/streetstalls/Pages/TemporarySites.aspx
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Some ideas I need from everyone!
We're going to have an e-store to sell the papers. But I want to be able to reach people without electronic means of payment or have parents who are hesitant to use them. I'd like to set up shop somewhere in the city once a week (on a Saturday/Sunday) and sell to people who want to buy them in person. Does anyone know where I could potentially rent a temporary shop front like this once a week?
I'd also like to welcome any and all feedback you guys might have about this!
It might be easier (and cheaper :P) to apply for a temporary street stall somewhere in the city (maybe outside Academic and General on holidays?).
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/enterprisemelbourne/industries/hospitality/streetstalls/Pages/StreetStalls.aspx
http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/enterprisemelbourne/industries/hospitality/streetstalls/Pages/TemporarySites.aspx
Would prefer indoors but beggars can't be choosers :P Thanks for the idea
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Not too involved with the financial side of things, but we need to actually make some money before we make pledges to charity. Something that I've discussed with Dan is the fact that in it's first year, this is not particularly likely to generate much revenue. Also take into account that there are going to be a lot of legal, distribution, and administrative factors put into this, which are going to take away what actually reaches us (and we will be excessively transparent with those involved as to where money is going, to the cent.).
Whilst it is all good to be socially responsible and ethical in the sense in which you see it, we're trying to do exactly that in our own way. We've made an ethical promise to everyone on this forum that we will be here to provide as many resources as we can for free, and not pressurize anyone into buying them individually (though you may choose to do so if you wish).
So why is the cost factor included?
I trialled this earlier in the year, I got about 35 keen responses on people willing to do it for free. Not one person followed through. I'm not blaming anyone for that, because I understand that people need to get some sort of benefit out of doing things. That's why we're keeping the balance by having a free paper, and a second paper which the writers can make their own money on.
Furthermore, we're undercutting every major company on price (up to 50% of what they charge), the writers will take a lot more pay than the writers of other commercial papers, there is a fund to set up for a scholarship fund (which we will provide an EXACT amount for everyone to see once we have some revenue), and the other motive of doing this is getting the ATARNotes name out to schools, which will only expand the amount of members, and hence resources on this website.
That said, we can hear what you're saying, and we're looking at how our other methods of expansion may enable us to further gain money for charitable purposes.
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We will be making money from this.
- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
Can we set aside a percentage of the money earned to be donated to an education based charity? I will happily find a worthwhile one.
Once ATARNotes is liquid, we're going to establish our own scholarship fund to send kids who can't afford it to uni.
I'd assume that's a while down the road though, whilst these are going to be generating profit much sooner.
If we set this label up as socially responsible and ethical it will go a long way. Currently I hear a lot of people complaining about how these other exam companies are just looking for money and scaremongering to get it.
Jee that's not fair :P We don't really have any money at the moment. I haven't taken a cent out of the AN kitty in the 4 years I've run it. It's all been spent on improving it and making it better. You're just going to have to trust that I -am- socially responsible (I am). Charity will come, but we have to actually have some money to give away first :P At the moment, any money we make is sitting there as capital to fund improvements to the site. In the case of these practice exams, it will cover startup costs for printing the exams and distributing them etc.
When I start taking a salary, that is when we'll start donating to charity.
Also in regard to social and ethical conscience. I can't believe I forgot to put it in the original post (will amend that to include it now) but we are going to make the commercial exams very cheap for both schools and individuals to buy.
I didn't mean it to be an attack, it's more a suggestion for how to set aside the AN label from everyone else. Certainly did not mean for it to seem like you wouldn't donate. Fair enough, I'm sure you've looked into the logistics of this.
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Impressive.
But I want to be able to reach people without electronic means of payment or have parents who are hesitant to use them.
Cheque/postal order could save you rental money, but I guess people might be wary of just posting off money if they're wary of internet banking etc.
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- Generous remuneration (to be finalised in negotiation with the writers whom we accept)
- Your name in bold on the front of the exam papers you write along with your e-mail and/or website underneath (great for spreading your reptuation within the VCE community)
- A wonderful addition to your resume.
Would we have to have our real names printed (for those of us who want to keep our anonymity on AN)?
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Good idea, maybe with money on the table we'll finally produce these damn papers.
One thingyou should pay some attention to is the authoring process. there should also be reviewers who sit the exam blind and give advice on it. The answers should also be produced by a board of experts as most questions (outside of maths) have multiple correct answers.
I'll be happy to participate in the reviewing process for maths and chemistry.
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Good idea, maybe with money on the table we'll finally produce these damn papers.
One thingyou should pay some attention to is the authoring process. there should also be reviewers who sit the exam blind and give advice on it. The answers should also be produced by a board of experts as most questions (outside of maths) have multiple correct answers.
I'll be happy to participate in the reviewing process for maths and chemistry.
Yeah had a plan to give people the paper without answers, have our own set of solutions, and then use the answers given to 1. identify common mistakes, and of course gain a better insight into how the question could be answered.
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I'd be happy to get involved. Knowing I'm just a student in year 12 still but I have been come really focused on psychology. I'm sure i can lend a hand in this. (Know I said this before, but I ended up getting hit with family stuff).
I just want to help out, seeing ATAR-Notes has helped me so much.
So happy to help with Psychology.
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Why the double post?
I'll help in Psychology in 2 years (dependent on my SS)
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Happy to be involved, particularly with Outdoor and Philosophy, two subjects were practice exams are very limited.
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Why the double post?
I'll help in Psychology in 2 years (dependent on my SS)
Internet being horrible.
Ssnake, let's own at psych. :D
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STEP 5: MAKE NATIONAL MODS PINK >=)
Edit: Thanks Nina ^_^
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STEP 5: MAKE NATIONAL MODS PINK >=)
Edit: Thanks Nina ^_^
Step 5) won't happen for a while because steps 2, 3 and 4 are going to take a loooot of time to nurture :P
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If you're wanting to make some form of profit from this you're doing it wrong... no one is going to buy them. Have you ever seen people on hear talking about where to buy practice exams? No, they're all just being given to everyone by teachers and shared around on the forum.
You have to sell them to schools, not students.
:)
I could write questions for physics, but writing an entire exam... really couldn't be bothered. You need to be more open ended in how you make the content if you want to get it made consistently in my opinion. Writing textbooks is also good - easier than writing exams too (more of a one off thing, more writing less thinking of what to write!). Making huge amounts of money off of it goes against everything I thought VN was about.
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Making huge amounts of money off of it goes against everything I thought VN was about.
I share the same sentiment, but sadly we don't own this place. Compared to other companies (from TSFX to Derrick Ha), what enwiabe has planned is the lesser of the evils.
Ideally, we should be running VCEPirateBay from a bunker in sweden.
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@schnappy and Mao
we hear all the time how much VN has helped people, but god forbid enwiabe try to make his four-year investment do more than break even for once
and through a method which would never force anybody to pay who didn't want to (NB at least one set of exams for each subject will be FREE, in case you didn't notice, it's not like he's forcing membership fees upon everyone)
are you serious?
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This is a turtle:
(http://www.petturtlecaresecrets.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/pet-turtle.jpg)
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If you're wanting to make some form of profit from this you're doing it wrong... no one is going to buy them. Have you ever seen people on hear talking about where to buy practice exams? No, they're all just being given to everyone by teachers and shared around on the forum.
You have to sell them to schools, not students.
:)
I could write questions for physics, but writing an entire exam... really couldn't be bothered. You need to be more open ended in how you make the content if you want to get it made consistently in my opinion. Writing textbooks is also good - easier than writing exams too (more of a one off thing, more writing less thinking of what to write!). Making huge amounts of money off of it goes against everything I thought VN was about.
We've tried to make people do them freely, organizing small teams so not everyone has to do a full exam etc., but as I said earlier, not one person followed through. VN is about providing resources, and doing so legally which means not having people upload other companies' exams on here. This way there is a benefit for people to make these exams, and it also holds them to making another set for everyone to get.
The closest that we can really get to providing trial exams.
We heard the concerns of people no longer having access to exams on here, and we've tried our best to try and rectify it without success before, so don't get fired up at the prospect of this website making a dollar (believe me your selection of the word huge is inappropriate), because believe me everything that you have right now at this point of time on VN will remain.
There is nothing to lose from a member standpoint, they can choose not to buy these exams if they want, but the odds are that if some people can actually get behind and support this, everyone will actually have at least one additional set of exams they can do, and a bunch of students will get the second set of exams if their students choose to buy it.
You, nor the rest of the VN community has anything to lose.
I'm pretty sure the main intention with this is to sell it to schools moreso than students anyway. In an ideal world we'd have schools buying them and not students (and I'm also thinking that we might do something with disadvantaged schools, not sure).
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@schnappy and Mao
we hear all the time how much VN has helped people, but god forbid enwiabe try to make his four-year investment do more than break even for once
and through a method which would never force anybody to pay who didn't want to (NB at least one set of exams for each subject will be FREE, in case you didn't notice, it's not like he's forcing membership fees upon everyone)
are you serious?
I'm not saying he should not make a profit. I'm just saying I personally would run the system differently (I think I have expressed this view several times in the past). There are aspects of this enterprise that I disagree with, but that is because I have a different philosophy. In my humble opinion, there are many who are willing to donate to this website if such avenue was available, and instead of focusing on building a business, I'd be focusing on building a community. A different vision, that is all.
enwiabe (and the rest of management) is well deserving of some financial returns. What is being offered here is much better than other offers by TSFX and the likes.
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My choice of the word huge was OK as far as I can tell, it just didn't come across as I had hoped. What I was trying to say was that I don't have a problem with the site making some form of revenue - by saying huge I didn't mean it would make a bucket load of money - I meant the site making huge amounts of money would go against what VN is about (And veering into TSFX etc. land. I happen to think they're a bunch of cunts). Not that the inevitable huge income to come will go against the VN spirit.
Just had to clear that up.
I'm all in for helping write a textbook, maybe learning some basic 2D vector drawing for our own diagrams :)
As a side note, It's worth noting that negging a post just because it has negative sentiments is pretty pathetic. Ever considered that maybe not everything is sunshine and rainbows?
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My choice of the word huge was OK as far as I can tell, it just didn't come across as I had hoped. What I was trying to say was that I don't have a problem with the site making some form of revenue - by saying huge I didn't mean it would make a bucket load of money - I meant the site making huge amounts of money would go against what VN is about (And veering into TSFX etc. land. I happen to think they're a bunch of cunts). Not that the inevitable huge income to come will go against the VN spirit.
Just had to clear that up.
I'm all in for helping write a textbook, maybe learning some basic 2D vector drawing for our own diagrams :)
As a side note, It's worth noting that negging a post just because it has negative sentiments is pretty pathetic. Ever considered that maybe not everything is sunshine and rainbows?
Explain how making some money from these trial papers will change this site in any way.
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I didn't say it would. Nor did I say it was a bad idea.
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So then how does this "go against what VN is about"?
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Just a bit of teen angst, settle down Dan were not all as old as you!
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No, it's not teen angst. It was a logical and well thought out comment that clearly isn't getting across.
I cleared up what I meant quite explicitely. Please read that, and it will be obvious what I was saying.
I didn't say making exams was bad. I implied that if VN were to be making lucrative profits, then it would be against the VN spirit. Though I've failed to find it, I do believe reading a statement along the lines of, "the site is for the disadvantaged... succeed in VCE... community... no cost" etc etc. Please read what I've said correctly instead of dismissing it all as pure pessimism and whinging. It's not hard.
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(NB at least one set of exams for each subject will be FREE, in case you didn't notice, it's not like he's forcing membership fees upon everyone)
This is a perfect system - it's an awesome idea and giving members one free trial exam is already showing that the initiative is better off than the bigger companies. It's only fair that we pay for the second and third trial exams and so on, you can't just continually refer back to the 'VN spirit' and so on when not giving back to the site (in this case, through purchasing exams) is really a contradiction of it anyway.
The 'no cost' and 'education for all' thing is a very, very good thing but there's an extent to which this can be fulfilled, in terms of financial stability, and so some things have to be sacrificed. I reckon it's an awesome idea, I might apply to be a writer for Legal Studies or Revolutions, I'll see. :P
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The "VN Spirit" is a loose and idealistic term.
I tried to nurture this in the same sense in which you may see it earlier, with no success.
It does seem that in the end it is either 2 exams, 1 free and 1 available for purchase if they wish, or 0.something exams and another set of token promises which do not see much follow through.
Once again, I don't blame anyone for that, making a textbook/trial exams etc. is incredibly time consuming, not too beneficial to one's own study, and quite frankly most people would righteously believe they had better things to do with their time.
If your ethical sense leads you, and enough other people to believe this is such an immoral/"against the spirit" thing to do, so be it, we will have to become a site with nothing but advice/question help (which isn't too bad I would think, but in all honesty there are a tonne of people that come here for exams and their solutions). One thing for sure is that we can't go back to having people post copyright content on here.
I also think that to an extent this is "community building" in the sense that people will be working together for these resources, there will be a sense of anticipation, people will all legally be able to compare their answers to the free set of papers, and it gives more reason for people to be engaged (let's face it, altruistic nature is no majority on this forum - not that I have a problem with that directly).
edit: btw I do appreciate your input, and we are trying to find a balance, and don't think this is purely a money making scheme, the concept of having trial exams has been around for a while, and we're trying to use it as a method to combat quite a few of the issues that we currently have.
re. negging the post, have been negged for worse :P
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It sucks... Recently the VN Spirit has failed to pay those pesky hosting bills and expansion costs. :p
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No, it's not teen angst. It was a logical and well thought out comment that clearly isn't getting across.
I cleared up what I meant quite explicitely. Please read that, and it will be obvious what I was saying.
I didn't say making exams was bad. I implied that if VN were to be making lucrative profits, then it would be against the VN spirit. Though I've failed to find it, I do believe reading a statement along the lines of, "the site is for the disadvantaged... succeed in VCE... community... no cost" etc etc. Please read what I've said correctly instead of dismissing it all as pure pessimism and whinging. It's not hard.
While I respect your opinion I think you are the one who needs to re-read the original proposal, because offering one set of exams for free, no strings attached, is pretty "for the disadvantaged" and "no cost" to me.
When you say that VN shouldn't be making profit at all, you are suggesting that enwiabe/David's time and effort is not worth any money. They're both too modest to say it (I know, enwiabe modest what?? :P) but they both put a SHITLOAD of effort and time into the logistics of the site and making sure it runs smoothly etc. etc., and nobody sees it because it's 1) behind the scenes and 2) they would never trumpet it.
I realise that thought probably never even passed through your mind, but I hope you see now why I found it so offensive and reacted in such a way.
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When you say that VN shouldn't be making profit at all, you are suggesting that enwiabe/David's time and effort is not worth any money.
Enwiabe comes onto irc at about 4am, wanting to bounce off ideas for AN.
That's commitment.
At 4am, I just want to sleep =.=zzz
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When you say that VN shouldn't be making profit at all, you are suggesting that enwiabe/David's time and effort is not worth any money.
I didn't say VN shouldn't be making profit. I suggested that making lucrative profit goes against the VN spirit. I do realise it's an idealistic term and yack yack, I simply felt it was worth pointing out. I did consider the 1 free 1 non-free component, I do agree that it is a good thing. You're generalising my comments as purely anti-revenue, which is not how they were intended.
Let me clarify. I feel that if the site were to be making lucrative profit from its user base then the initial intentions of the site would be polarised with that of the current endeavors. I understand hosting costs and the time required to integrate the 'notes' system with SMF, and the inherit time it takes for the stylistic integration to work just right in the way it does. Generating some revenue to cover that is a good idea - I tried to emphasize this when I said huge initially, I realise that small profits can go a long way in running costs, I intended to get across that making huge profits would be somewhat contrary to the VN spirit (Which I've loosely defined prior).
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Lol, well, I guess you'll have to wait for pricing details to be finalised, but I can tell you now that unless all the schools in Victoria want to buy them the profits (if there are even profits) will be nowhere near "lucrative".
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I didn't say they would be... all I've been doing is justifying what I initially I said I'm not trying to say x y z will happen :S
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When you say that VN shouldn't be making profit at all, you are suggesting that enwiabe/David's time and effort is not worth any money.
I didn't say VN shouldn't be making profit. I suggested that making lucrative profit goes against the VN spirit. I do realise it's an idealistic term and yack yack, I simply felt it was worth pointing out. I did consider the 1 free 1 non-free component, I do agree that it is a good thing. You're generalising my comments as purely anti-revenue, which is not how they were intended.
Let me clarify. I feel that if the site were to be making lucrative profit from its user base then the initial intentions of the site would be polarised with that of the current endeavors. I understand hosting costs and the time required to integrate the 'notes' system with SMF, and the inherit time it takes for the stylistic integration to work just right in the way it does. Generating some revenue to cover that is a good idea - I tried to emphasize this when I said huge initially, I realise that small profits can go a long way in running costs, I intended to get across that making huge profits would be somewhat contrary to the VN spirit (Which I've loosely defined prior).
If VN were to make "lucrative profits" directly from its user base, then yes, I suppose it would go against the "VN Spirit". However, we have always tried to minimize the monetary (as well as the annoying (AKA not entirely plastering the boards with ads)) costs to the AN users. If we could continue on that path while generating "lucrative profits", it could only ever be a good thing for our users (and maybe slightly us).
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Well ofcourse having some revenue will help improve the site, but what I'm trying to get at is having top dog website owner (enwiabe?) generating a super secret income is something to be wary of. I'm not trying to criminalise them at all nor suggesting that they're a cunning bastard, but I have seen it happen before where apparent 'costs' were really a front for ridiculous amounts of money going into the pocket of someone.
I'd also like to voice my further support for textbooks - LaTeX + Inkscape --> Awesome. Make them free to download or pay for a print edition - sounds good to me (more so than exams that need to be tediously redone every 12 months).
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I'd also like to voice my further support for textbooks - LaTeX + Inkscape --> Awesome. Make them free to download or pay for a print edition - sounds good to me (more so than exams that need to be tediously redone every 12 months).
I don't see why textbooks are more appealing than exams though. Everyone already has their prescribed textbooks which they'll inevitably favour. If you mean more along the lines of summary books, then we've already got notes available on the website which are free, and these free notes are really the foundations which the website was built upon to begin with. If you're asking us to write 'premium' notes and sell those, that seems far more in breach of the 'VN spirit' or whatever than what's being proposed is.
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Schnappy in principle I love that idea, I'm actually looking into something which is similar in the sense that it creates content from AN itself (for free).
My only problem is that to make a textbook we need:
1. A team
2. Motivated individuals
3. A motivated team
Without money on the board it is close to impossible to make this happen. There are some amazing individuals ie. Shinny/Burbs etc. who have uploaded notes which go into amazing depth, but these are rare occurrences. If I couldn't get a team together to make 90 marks worth of questions, how on earth are we going to get people to get together and cover a whole course for free. One way could be to have people write snippets, but then the whole thing doesn't necessarily flow as well.
Also with the textbook if we were to charge, we wouldn't be able to generate anything extra for free without another huge bulk of effort. The day that we're selling something education related without offering something similar for free is probably the day that we do clearly overtake the "VN Spirit" line you were talking about. Also to print it, it would be rather costly as we wouldn't have any publishing deals, and taking into account some other stuff that we'd have to sort out, it would also have a pretty big cost price, which would also prevent us from undercutting the monster publishers on affordability =\
That said, I'll definitely look into ways in which we can legitimately go into that (I think one of the ideas I have may address it partially).
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lol 'vn spirit'
what is this, the fred hollows foundation?
I think not.
just make exams so we can spam them and get a high SS, after all, that is what vcenotes is about, maximising SS and ATAR
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If this were any other thread it would've been locked by now :P
IN OTHER NEWS, chem is coming along (slowly)...
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Haha nah most stuff has been relevant, and you're allowed to contest decisions!
Great work with starting on chem :)
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Also with the textbook if we were to charge, we wouldn't be able to generate anything extra for free without another huge bulk of effort. The day that we're selling something education related without offering something similar for free is probably the day that we do clearly overtake the "VN Spirit" line you were talking about. Also to print it, it would be rather costly as we wouldn't have any publishing deals, and taking into account some other stuff that we'd have to sort out, it would also have a pretty big cost price, which would also prevent us from undercutting the monster publishers on affordability =\
Hence having the digital version free :) Having a purely digital version isn't a bad thing or a cheap shortcut to publishing either, it allows you to have animations, videos etc... having these all compliment each other isn't something I've seen. (Admittedly I only ever get the eBooks off of the discs textbooks come with)
I did give this a good think, and came to the same idea as you that there'd need to be a distributed 'snippets' system. It can still flow if set out right. Have an internal group (committee if you like) that organises the content and presumably will write a lot of it, but most notably create the structure of the text. What I was thinking was have the group make a contents table per se, saying what goes where then put out an offer to have sections written in a wiki-like fashion. To maintain quality and fluancy, the internal group can edit and play with what's offered to create a final document. Also allows for various formatting to go into it - I mentioned LaTeX earlier, not everyone likes LaTeX (You should :P ) but as long as someone in the group can transcribe what has been submitted it can all be fixed up.
Essentially, have the book's components written by everyone but only allow a small group to collaborate the official rubber stamped text.
Notes work for some people, I personally find the whole idea a bit of a dud (Except for subjects like legal that require you to memorise things like examples) - but that's just me. If you write a textbook compiling notes based on the structure of the text is easy - but then the textbook would double as being directly related to the notes if someone wanted to read up on something. I personally find that if I read in-depth on something I tend to get the basics down a lot easier. (Looking at you IR&NMR spec)
I realise for the most parts that quality practice exams will be actively used and sought after more, but I personally feel that most textbooks can be a pain and extracting what's important from a VCE stand point can be a bit annoying. My main reason as to why textbooks would be easier to make is because they don't need to be redone every 12 months, they're mostly static (Very rare are there huge changes to a course?)
If this were any other thread it would've been locked by now :P
I don't see why.
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the point is that hardly anyone is going to do this for free, its like tutoring people for free, no one's gonna do that :S and writing a text book takes a lot more time and effort than a practice exam imo
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the point is that hardly anyone is going to do this for free, its like tutoring people for free, no one's gonna do that :S and writing a text book takes a lot more time and effort than a practice exam imo
Not imo ;) An entire book yes, but leisurely writing bits and pieces of information would be a lot easier for me than thinking up questions that aren't just reworded ones from elsewhere :)
I believe if it were accessible and well established, there would be a few people submitting text - doesn't just need to be that, graphics are also integral.
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I see absolutely no benefit in us making a book. Exams, yes.
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I think perhaps the A+ notes market would/could work, as you could market it on "students share their tips that got them a 50 SS" etc.
But I think it's far too much work to do a whole textbook, because you have to remember printing/publishing costs are going to be very large unless we can sell them to a lot of schools, which I don't really think is possible in a short period of time.
But exams, definitely. Especially considering schools make an allowance to purchase these sorts of things, surely adding another exam isn't gonna dent the budget too much.
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I agree with burbs and luken93, I don't think writing of whole textbooks would be a realistic or practical aim. Sets of concise notes and prac exams are probably the way to go.
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@schnappy what you're suggesting sounds like Viki, which was a fantastic idea in principle but went down the drain in practice :(
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@schnappy what you're suggesting sounds like Viki, which was a fantastic idea in principle but went down the drain in practice :(
Seconded. Whilst VN has a lot of members, we don't have anywhere near enough people to run a community collaboration like that. Heck, if we grab every VCE student we'd still probably fall short.
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I liked the Viki idea :( I'm just no good at making wikis :(
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I liked the Viki idea :( I'm just no good at making wikis :(
Yeah, I thought the Viki idea was pretty beast as well.
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Hmhmhmhmh not really. When I'm thinking textbook I'm not thinking fancy pdf of cover to cover dribblings. More like what you all think of as 'notes' but much more indepth. Rather thing summarising something interesting in a single dot point, write a paragraph or two on it. But compile it into a single, sizeable document rather than dispersed as x, y and z's personal notes.
Viki doesn't appear to have been set up at all, other than the technical infrastrucutre. I look at the methods page and it looks like the study design just reformatted, but the English Language page is actually a summary of the awesome stickies in the EL section of the forum - it's a valuable resource for revision, but it doesn't appear to explain in depth at all what the subject is.
So if you asked me what Viki was for I'd just say it was the same as the forum but without Q&A (In a good way)
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Hmhmhmhmh not really. When I'm thinking textbook I'm not thinking fancy pdf of cover to cover dribblings. More like what you all think of as 'notes' but much more indepth. Rather thing summarising something interesting in a single dot point, write a paragraph or two on it. But compile it into a single, sizeable document rather than dispersed as x, y and z's personal notes.
Viki doesn't appear to have been set up at all, other than the technical infrastrucutre. I look at the methods page and it looks like the study design just reformatted, but the English Language page is actually a summary of the awesome stickies in the EL section of the forum - it's a valuable resource for revision, but it doesn't appear to explain in depth at all what the subject is.
So if you asked me what Viki was for I'd just say it was the same as the forum but without Q&A (In a good way)
Yes, that's because we never got around to giving Viki a real structure. With the handful of editors we had, it wasn't easy to start a comprehensive documentation about every aspect of the VCE course. It wasn't even easy to setup the templates, let alone outline and organise the entire syllabus.
In short, what you are proposing is not feasible. It is good in theory, but in the real world it will never be achieved, and then afterwards you realise it wasn't even good in theory. (Communism, anyone?)
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Communism works if the guy at the top is a good bloke. :D
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Communism works if the guy at the top is a good bloke. :D
Lol, one of the most blind, naive statements I have ever read.
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Communism works if the guy at the top is a good bloke. :D
Lol, one of the most blind, naive statements I have ever read.
I refrained from commenting... :-X
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Schnappy's going to be furious when VCEDating comes out
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The smiley face on the end is meant to convey it as a joke...
VCEDating? I'll have to play it in reverse. See how many chicks I can creep out :D
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Sorry for Forum Necromancy but I would just like to ask some questions about this. As Enwiabe said earlier this idea would potentially go ahead some time this year, but will it be a possibility to bring it out with just a few subjects at first or the whole common lot (by this I mean English, Methods, Further, Psychology, Chemistry, Health, Physics, Business Management, so forth...)?
Furthermore we already ready have a few practice exams, to say a few my Psychology one, Puffy and Thelson, which we could have in a section titled ATAR Notes Practice Exams on the top possibly between Notes and Books. I was just interested into when these ideas are going along, seeing its always though about, and even if its not the best time of year, would it be a possibility for late November, early December?
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We were hoping to start up small groups for it, but we need to start it at the right time. Early - Mid December is the best time to do it though definitely.
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Can we look to getting our own groups together, and brainstorming some ideas around then, just want to know what will be happening before I get ideas together.
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needs to be a screening process too. If you're putting the AN logo, make sure it is a good exam.
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needs to be a screening process too. If you're putting the AN logo, make sure it is a good exam.
This as well, we're 100% keen for you to make exams under your own 'company' name if you want as that still counts as contributing to the site, but if you're going to use the AN name or logo we need to screen it.