ATAR Notes: Forum
Uni Stuff => Faculties => Law => Topic started by: vce01 on September 09, 2008, 09:09:38 pm
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i've got absolutely no idea which one i'd rather do atm, and i need help. got a couple of questions...
- if you do comm/law, is it more advantageous to you in terms of employment options? if so, is it significantly more than if you did arts/law?
also, say if you only wanted to pursue law related careers, again, would your other degree have any major effect on whether you'd be able to get a job or not?
- im not fond of maths, so is it possible to avoid that aspect of it if you do commerce? dont mind business management, and even accounting...so yeah, if i can just do theory stuff it wouldnt be so bad
- apparently arts/law has low contact hours, does anyone know how it compares to comm/law in that regard?
thnx :)
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QUOTE BRENDAN
"BCommerce
If you want to work in a commercial law firm, then the choice is really easy as employers value the commercial skills and being able to understand the business needs of the client. So thats a BCom. Also Law and Economics is very big school of thought, where you apply economic analysis to legal questions. That also pushes you towards doing a BCom. BCom keeps your options open if you don't want to be a lawyer.
BA
I'm not sure, but a lot of my friends take politics and this complements with law. It gives you some time to relax. Though in terms of career prospects i think you might be limiting yourself to law.
May signal good interpersonal skills to employers? "
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I asked my friend who is doing Commerce/Law what she thought. Here is her response:
Hi vce01 -
1. either should be fine for employment, there should be no huge effect but you should consider what path you want to take after your degree
...this was probably one of the considerations of unimelb turning law into JD-only (postgrad) which is overrall not that bad an idea to be honest.
it really does depend on your majors/disciplines in each of your degrees and in the end if you do choose to do a double degree that is 5 years (my point: do something you won't hate)
many, many people who graduate from a law degree don't actually go into law. i've found that a lot of comm/law graduates have 'strayed' into the commerce side; i know quite a few people who've gone into investment banking and general finance/accounting areas, but lots go into management consulting.
i'm doing comm/law (at coblin's uni) so i can't say i'd know a lot about arts/law kids' employment prospects but from what i understand (and have heard) to be the general consensus is that the arts component is generally what keeps them sane throughout the degree (this is also true for commerce/law kids). majors in foreign languages and philosophy/history are quite popular - so if you enjoy these subjects now; you'll definitely enjoy arts/law.
there isn't really a definitive answer to this question :P it's more or less just knowing what you'll like etc.
2. it is totally possible to avoid math in commerce. the commerce degree has a lot of different disciplines that you can take - among these are accounting, finance, economics, management/marketing, and i think unimelb has introduced a new 'business major' which is a major requiring you to complete subjects from 3 of the different sectors (eg accounting, management, economics).
economics can get a bit mathsy (direct all enquiries re economics to coblin haha!) but the other subjects are all at most simple math and really quite logical.
if you want to avoid math at all costs - go for management :) it's all theory!
3. again with this one it really depends on the subjects you do. both arts/law and comm/law degrees have very little contact hours.
i've had about 13 or 14 contact hours per week (2.5-3 days p/w inc breaks) for the last 4 semesters (including this one). there's a general requirement for a lot of autonomous work/reading/writing (which of course i have blatantly neglected to do) which is why the contact hours are so low compared to courses like science (which have pracs/labs) and med (which have clinicals).
i think each language subject is about 4 contact hours each - so if you balance your arts and law degree you'd have between 14 and 16 contact hours (maximum 16).
there really is no difference between arts/law and comm/law with respect to contact hours - you're going to end up with a pretty spare timetable either way.
anyway hope all of this helps! i've posted this under coblin's account because i'm too lazy to create my own :) but yes happy reading!
cheers,
anny.
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She also wanted to add something about:
"the importance of not falling into the trap of going to uni to do a degree purely for career cos career changes - do somethign that you will enjoy"
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what is the JD/MBA at UoM? please detail!
do they seriously only take in 2 students into that program?,, thats what i've heard
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short answer because I'm lazy and tired: (massive generalisations)
if you wana go into law, comm/law = more likely commercial law, working for companies
arts/law = more int relations, politics side of law
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thanks guys, especially coblin's friend, massive help :)
think im going to do comm/law, mainly because im not entirely sure i will enjoy law.
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is legal studies similar to some of the work in first year law in uni?
in other words, should i do legal studies if i was going to do law in uni?
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- if you do comm/law, is it more advantageous to you in terms of employment options?
yes
if so, is it significantly more than if you did arts/law?
yes
also, say if you only wanted to pursue law related careers, again, would your other degree have any major effect on whether you'd be able to get a job or not?
for some legal jobs like competition law, corporate law, securities regulation, M&A advisory, a background in commerce is highly valuable.
- im not fond of maths, so is it possible to avoid that aspect of it if you do commerce?
for some commerce degrees, you need to take a minimum number of quantitative subjects.
- apparently arts/law has low contact hours, does anyone know how it compares to comm/law in that regard?
Com/law should be abt the same in terms of contact hrs.
In the end what degree you should take is highly dependent on what you want to do in the future. In terms of careers in law, check out: http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.0.html That should give you a taste of the different areas of law and what a lawyer typically does.
However, in terms of career prospects, your major will only take you so far. Relevant work experience is far more important, and so is knowing the right people.
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what is the JD/MBA at UoM? please detail!
http://www.jdmba.unimelb.edu.au/
is legal studies similar to some of the work in first year law in uni?
only very very vaguely.
should i do legal studies if i was going to do law in uni?
It depends, if you want to study law at uni then you need a high TER. is doing legal studies going to get you a high TER? I don't know.
If you are wondering whether legal studies will make studying law at uni easier, i don't think so.
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is legal studies similar to some of the work in first year law in uni?
in other words, should i do legal studies if i was going to do law in uni?
If you're going to Monash, sure, if you wanna ace around 2 weeks worth of the course for a subject in semester one which isn't even examinable in the semester 1 exam
(i.e. no :P)
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Brendan, stop telling lies! Comm/Law isn't more advantageous in terms of employment opportunities than Arts/Law if your arts major is appropriate (an in-demand foreign language, international relations, political science, that kind of thing). Similarly, some commerce majors have little benefit towards employment in the legal workplace. Both degrees open up doors, just in completely different areas - you're much more likely to be employed at DFAT with an Arts/Law degree than a Comm/Law degree, for example.
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Comm/Law isn't more advantageous in terms of employment opportunities than Arts/Law if your arts major is appropriate (an in-demand foreign language, international relations, political science, that kind of thing).
Both degrees open up doors, just in completely different areas -
Yes, but Com/law opens more doors, and the doors that it does open are more lucrative.
Of course, the appropriate degree depends on what the individual wants to do, his/her strengths etc. But, in general, Com/law is better in terms of career opportunities.
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hahahahhahahahah brendan is only saying comm/law > arts/law cause one side has the word 'arts' in it.
hahahhahhaha what a champion, even when he gets grilled for bashing arts, he still does it in the most subtle way.
brendan is da gr8est hustla
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Comm/Law isn't more advantageous in terms of employment opportunities than Arts/Law if your arts major is appropriate (an in-demand foreign language, international relations, political science, that kind of thing).
Both degrees open up doors, just in completely different areas -
Yes, but Com/law opens more doors, and the doors that it does open are more lucrative.
Of course, the appropriate degree depends on what the individual wants to do, his/her strengths etc. But, in general, Com/law is better in terms of career opportunities.
I think that's extremely subjective. As droodles so eloquently put it, you're somewhat biased towards the Comm side and well away from the Arts side.
Certainly at ANU, students would much rather join their law degree with an arts degree than a commerce degree because by the main firms in Canberra that employ law graduates, an arts degree is seen as more desirable. And I'd consider a job at DFAT much more lucrative than the things you suggested like competition law, corporate law, securities regulation, and M&A advisory.
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Certainly at ANU, students would much rather join their law degree with an arts degree than a commerce degree because by the main firms in Canberra that employ law graduates, an arts degree is seen as more desirable.
But i never said that in some instances arts/law wasn't better. Clearly for some situations they are. But in aggregate, Com/law is better in terms of career opportunities.
a job at DFAT
But what sort of job? Toilet cleaner? It seems awkward that you suggest arts/law is better than com/law for "a job" (whatever that is supposed to be) at DFAT, as it is after all, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
Indeed if you look at the DFAT graduate careers page:
http://www.dfat.gov.au/recruit/graduates/index.html
You will see that there are two graduate programs, with one called "Corporate and Financial Management Trainee Program " for those with qualifications in Accounting.
So your claim that, all else equal, an arts/law grad has a higher probability than com/law grad of getting into DFAT is becoming all the more shaky.
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Ouch!
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Certainly at ANU, students would much rather join their law degree with an arts degree than a commerce degree because by the main firms in Canberra that employ law graduates, an arts degree is seen as more desirable.
But i never said that in some instances arts/law wasn't better. Clearly for some situations they are. But in aggregate, Com/law is better in terms of career opportunities.
a job at DFAT
But what sort of job? Toilet cleaner? It seems awkward that you suggest arts/law is better than com/law for "a job" (whatever that is supposed to be) at DFAT, as it is after all, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade
Indeed if you look at the DFAT graduate careers page:
http://www.dfat.gov.au/recruit/graduates/index.html
You will see that there are two graduate programs, with one called "Corporate and Financial Management Trainee Program " for those with qualifications in Accounting.
So your claim that, all else equal, an arts/law grad has a higher probability than com/law grad of getting into DFAT is becoming all the more shaky.
What's this aggregrate based on? Sorry, it's just that from most Law students I've spoken to, they feel that either degree offers a similar amount of pathways. Indeed, with a lot of business-related aspects being covered in Law degrees - courses on tax, corporations, bankrupcy, takeovers, etc. - most Arts/Law students will still be able to pursue many of the pathways that Comm/Law students take. Of course in some cases the additional study that a Commerce student has undertaken may make them the more viable candidate for the job, though that would heavily depend on the major of the Commerce student and the job in question.
There are of course jobs at DFAT that require accountancy, but the foreign component indicates that profiency in a foreign language or two is highly important. About 50% or so of Arts/Law students that I meet at uni want to end up at DFAT, and are doing that combination because that it what is most likely to get them employed there, as told by employees of DFAT guest lecturing in their first Law course (Foundations, I think).
I will of course concede that Commerce graduates generally have more employment opportunities than Arts graduates. But that's irrelevent when talking about double degrees - if you're going to look for employment in areas that don't need a Law degree, then why study for one at all?
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I will of course concede that Commerce graduates generally have more employment opportunities than Arts graduates.
And Com/law over arts/law as well?
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which one will get you more job opportunities: business/law at monash or commerce/law?
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DFAT that require accountancy, but the foreign component indicates that profiency in a foreign language or two is highly important.
But there's the rub. The original question being asked wasn't: "Is arts/law better than com/law for a role in DFAT overseas"
- if you do comm/law, is it more advantageous to you in terms of employment options? if so, is it significantly more than if you did arts/law?
But that's irrelevent when talking about double degrees - if you're going to look for employment in areas that don't need a Law degree, then why study for one at all?
No, it's not irrelevant as plenty of law graduates go into non-legal professions. And secondly the question asked was "if you do comm/law, is it more advantageous to you in terms of employment options? if so, is it significantly more than if you did arts/law?" The question posed was not limited to only legal professions.
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vce01... keep in mind that all u're gonna get on here r opinions.
Hear wot we have 2 say, but show the independence of thought 2 make up ur own mind.
Personally, if u want 2 cover all bases, I would recommend Com/Law with a concurrent diploma in ur desired Arts 'major' (or visa versa).
Like, I know it's a lil different, but instead of doing a double Arts/Com I decided 2 do BCom with a Dip of Languages (Jap).
Takes 1 less year and the Dip is the equivalent of a degree major.
I may also take Jap Studies as a cross-faculty minor to compliment my language studies.
If u'd like 2 know a bit more bout this alternative, I happen 2 have a copy of the Arts faculty undergrad diploma application form 4 Monash. It has a list of all Arts faculty diplomas u can apply 4 ...including popular majors like politics, history and philosophy. I'm sure other universities have equivalent programs.
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Com/Law + DipArts
Problem solved.
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Com/Law + DipArts
Problem solved.
Did I not say that 3 days ago Jo...? :P
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I think if you are dead set on law, that Comm/Law is the answer.
But humph brings up good points about an Arts double degree are very handy.
If you were more interested in Commerce, I would suggest Commerce/Arts because Commerce and a study of a language, plus different country would be in demand. Especially with some of these Asain Countries, like China still growing excessively, and Japan's growth being will slow, will likely increase.
I remember talking to this absolutely load Investment Banker who works at Goldman Sachs, who said something similar to the above. The man seemed to have the best job if you could cope with the long hours at first
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Com/Law + DipArts
Problem solved.
Did I not say that 3 days ago Jo...? :P
Thread was tl;dr :P
<3 jess :smitten: :smitten: :smitten:
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:(
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<3
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hahahahhahahahah brendan is only saying comm/law > arts/law cause one side has the word 'arts' in it.
hahahhahhaha what a champion, even when he gets grilled for bashing arts, he still does it in the most subtle way.
brendan is da gr8est hustla
QFT
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Why not just straight law? If you are passionate about law, then adhering to only one dedicated course seems feasible, at least to me :P
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. . . or med/law
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. . . or med/law
med/law?
In that case, y not go the full 9 yards and do Bachelor of Medicine / Bachelor of Surgery / Bachelor of Laws ?
That is the most elite, full-on 'double' degree that I think exists.
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Why not just straight law? If you are passionate about law, then adhering to only one dedicated course seems feasible, at least to me :P
true but im not 100% sure if i might still want to be in the legal field after ive done it. might as well keep my options open. oh and for the record ive decided on comm/law.
med/law = suicide :P
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. . . or med/law
there were about 4 people in my lectures last semester who did that
crazy, crazy people. at least they were useful for explaining some medical terms in a legal problem we were doing. >_<
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I'm interested in science/law, anyone know who's done such a combination?
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I've got a couple of friends doing science/law. They both prefer the science.
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Everyone I know doing a double degree prefers their non-law one, lol
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Hmmm :S That's reassuring..