ATAR Notes: Forum
National Education => General National Education Discussion => Topic started by: brendan on November 30, 2007, 11:22:10 am
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http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/school-fees-break-through-20000/2007/11/29/1196037074779.html
There comes a point where a parent must ask: is it worth it?
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Dude....I seriously would not spend that much for education ....$20000 per year>??? geez.....
I would rather save that up for a house or car......
Oh yeah...I went to a private school that was not that "elite" and the fees are maximum $5000 for a year 12....
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holy fuck. I had no idea people paid this much. That is insaaaaaaaane.
I get cut when mine are more than $500.
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oh and as for the $12,000 to send preps to school there.... it's prep for fk's sake... all you do is draw pictures and learn your abc's!! Who the hell sends their 5-year-old to some private school for $12,000 a year??
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Can't believe Ivanhoe isn't on there. what are their fees like these days (igs07)?
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Those fees are nothing compared to those of NSW.
I was surprised Melbourne Grammar(Boys) and Geelong Grammar were not on the list.
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I doubt it's worth it, if the student wants to learn, they'll succeed no matter what school they go to. What bothers me though is the fact that some of these students don't appreciate the amount of money their parents are paying. I know someone who went to Scotch College, and he's now a personal trainer (nothing wrong with that but it's a little disappointing considering how much his parents paid for his education).
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I doubt it's worth it, if the student wants to learn, they'll succeed no matter what school they go to. What bothers me though is the fact that some of these students don't appreciate the amount of money their parents are paying. I know someone who went to Scotch College, and he's now a personal trainer (nothing wrong with that but it's a little disappointing considering how much his parents paid for his education).
i hate that thought pattern. you're saying he should only be educated to the standard required for personal training. he has the right to education at any level he wants. i know people who have had engineering degrees and actuarial degrees and whatnot who have gone on to be dancing teachers and fonezone franchisees. they're perfectly happy with how their lives turned out and dont regret getting those qualifications; is that diappointing?
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i hate that thought pattern. you're saying he should only be educated to the standard required for personal training. he has the right to education at any level he wants. i know people who have had engineering degrees and actuarial degrees and whatnot who have gone on to be dancing teachers and fonezone franchisees. they're perfectly happy with how their lives turned out and dont regret getting those qualifications; is that diappointing?
No it's not disappointing, everyone should choose whatever career makes them happy, it's just he never appreciated how much his parents were paying and he just didn't care about school or anything, that's what is disappointing really... i guess i should have said that instead of what i said before lol... sorry ^_^
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i hate that thought pattern. you're saying he should only be educated to the standard required for personal training. he has the right to education at any level he wants. i know people who have had engineering degrees and actuarial degrees and whatnot who have gone on to be dancing teachers and fonezone franchisees. they're perfectly happy with how their lives turned out and dont regret getting those qualifications; is that diappointing?
No it's not disappointing, everyone should choose whatever career makes them happy, it's just he never appreciated how much his parents were paying and he just didn't care about school or anything, that's what is disappointing really... i guess i should have said that instead of what i said before lol... sorry ^_^
so he's a slacker using personal training as the 'easy way out'?
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i hate that thought pattern. you're saying he should only be educated to the standard required for personal training. he has the right to education at any level he wants. i know people who have had engineering degrees and actuarial degrees and whatnot who have gone on to be dancing teachers and fonezone franchisees. they're perfectly happy with how their lives turned out and dont regret getting those qualifications; is that diappointing?
No it's not disappointing, everyone should choose whatever career makes them happy, it's just he never appreciated how much his parents were paying and he just didn't care about school or anything, that's what is disappointing really... i guess i should have said that instead of what i said before lol... sorry ^_^
so he's a slacker using personal training as the 'easy way out'?
Yes, only reason he chose to be a personal trainer was because he thought it would be a good way to pick up chicks ...
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i hate that thought pattern. you're saying he should only be educated to the standard required for personal training. he has the right to education at any level he wants. i know people who have had engineering degrees and actuarial degrees and whatnot who have gone on to be dancing teachers and fonezone franchisees. they're perfectly happy with how their lives turned out and dont regret getting those qualifications; is that diappointing?
No it's not disappointing, everyone should choose whatever career makes them happy, it's just he never appreciated how much his parents were paying and he just didn't care about school or anything, that's what is disappointing really... i guess i should have said that instead of what i said before lol... sorry ^_^
so he's a slacker using personal training as the 'easy way out'?
Yes, only reason he chose to be a personal trainer was because he thought it would be a good way to pick up chicks ...
haha fair enough
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http://brendanduong.blogspot.com/2007/11/private-school-fees.html
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Moderator action
Removed irrelevant banter regarding the difference between two links provided. (It went along the lines of: same thing, no it isn't, yes it is, it isn't, etc...)
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i've got family friends whose little kid goes to Scotch Primary, and i can't believe how much more their school fees are compared to my school, madness :D
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Eton College
http://www.etoncollege.com/eton.asp?di=1214
"The fees from September 2007 are ?26,490 (approximately US$53,000 or ?39000) per year for accommodation + tuition, but there are some ?Extras?. Click here for details of current fees."
Now that is expensive
MBA from Harvard Business School
http://www.hbs.edu/mba/admissions/costsummary.html
US$73,300 for 9 month academic year
The whole MBA program takes 2 years if done full time
MBA from the Melbourne Business School
AUD$50,000 for the whole two year program, so approx AU$25000 for one academic year.
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People pay a lot for reputation, I think. Eton: everyone's heard of it, I reckon.
Of course, reputation comes from somewhere, so I guess they've got to be good. I don't see what's wrong with high priced private schools though. To each to their own: if you don't like it, go to public schools :) If you think they're providing a bloated service, go to public schools :)
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this is stupid. if people arent allowed to take the piss now and again without getting their stuff deleted, this site is rubbish. this isnt an encyclopedia, it is not absolutely essential we remain on topic constantly.
Moderator action: Responded to via PM.
We do accept fun and humour, but not bland pointlessness. I don't know what you're referring to, but if you're referring to the debate about the links before, I thought that was going out of hand.
Edited by coblin
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Referring to above edit by Coblin:
Coblin has my full support on this. Don't deliberately act like a douche. It will not win you any favours. This warning goes out to everyone. Have a nice day. :)
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I'd rather not get into mod decisions, I have no idea what just got deleted. However, I do respect the fact that coblin identified himself as the mod to have taken action. I admire his willingness to accept the power AND the responsibility of being a mod, and that he's been gracious enough to supply an explanation.
Back on topic... I would never pay the money for a private school. I believe that it's not so much a school, as it is the teachers. I believe that a student who is willing to put the effort in will do well no matter what the school. That said though, 95+ enters become private/selective school territory because all the students in such a school tend to adopt an all-or-nothing mindset, and drive each other further. I don't have any such support or competition at my school, and I believe that may have acted to limit my enter to the lower 90s. However, I'm happy to have it that way, since I'm only striving for a 90 for my uni course and I'd consider any money spent to drive my enter higher than necessary as frivolous spending. If I wanted to get into medicine or something, then I'd consider asking my Dad to take out a second mortgage...
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Back on topic... I would never pay the money for a private school. I believe that it's not so much a school, as it is the teachers. I believe that a student who is willing to put the effort in will do well no matter what the school. That said though, 95+ enters become private/selective school territory because all the students in such a school tend to adopt an all-or-nothing mindset, and drive each other further. I don't have any such support or competition at my school, and I believe that may have acted to limit my enter to the lower 90s. However, I'm happy to have it that way, since I'm only striving for a 90 for my uni course and I'd consider any money spent to drive my enter higher than necessary as frivolous spending. If I wanted to get into medicine or something, then I'd consider asking my Dad to take out a second mortgage...
Yeah, it's all a personal cost-benefit analysis, really. Do the benefits of a high quality private school outweigh the costs? The private schooling market will adapt to the demands of the consumers in order to make money. The only reason why private schools are charging so much, is because they cannot dominate the lower-wealth portions of the market, which is currently owned by subsidised public schooling. Instead, they target the high-wealth sector of the education market. Sounds fair to me.
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Are there any laws governing the Victoria's educating bodies (schools) in the sense that say... a school can not charge over $100,000 a year or anything like that.
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Are there any laws governing the Victoria's educating bodies (schools) in the sense that say... a school can not charge over $100,000 a year or anything like that.
Nope, and there shouldn't be. If a school feels that it should charge $100,000, go ahead, although it would most likely be financial suicide since hardly anyone would go to the school. It would probably need to develop an extremely elite reputation beforehand.
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Are there any laws governing the Victoria's educating bodies (schools) in the sense that say... a school can not charge over $100,000 a year or anything like that.
Nope, and there shouldn't be. If a school feels that it should charge $100,000, go ahead, although it would most likely be financial suicide since hardly anyone would go to the school. It would probably need to develop an extremely elite reputation beforehand.
I just don't like the idea of people forking out such huge amounts of money for an education that really may not be any greater than that of a public school education. Although I guess it is the parents choice and if they take the risk then that is their choice. In about 10 years time I can see Today Tonight and ACA swarming around "parents exploited by greedy schools". LOL
Sidenote. Those shows are ridiculous and sensationalised pieces of shit.
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Yeah, it is the parent's choice, and the government does not need to be the parent of its citizens, and mandate what choices are acceptable or not.
Individual responsibility shouldn't be sacrificed to the government to make decisions for us.
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Yeah, it is the parent's choice, and the government does not need to be the parent of its citizens, and mandate what choices are acceptable or not.
Individual responsibility shouldn't be sacrificed to the government to make decisions for us.
I like SOME government intervention. It makes me feel my life is in someone elses control and it won't go spiraling out of control =)
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I like SOME government intervention. It makes me feel my life is in someone elses control and it won't go spiraling out of control =)
LOL. I don't know how to respond to that.
I'm thinking: if you want someone to control parts of your life, make a deal with an insurance agency or something haha, but there's no reason why governments have to intervene in everyone's life. Also, note that by intervention, I mean unnecessary intervention: I believe in government intervention in order to ensure private contracts and individual liberties are protected (e.g: stopping someone trying to steal from someone else via the police or courts).
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Fair enough. I just think that government intervention plays an important role in upholding society which is why I believe that sometimes morals and ethics should be embedded within our policy because it keeps people safe and happy =)
Lol I am talking like a 2 year old haha. All I really want to say is " I like government intervention" haha
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I'm a public school kid who had a positive experience. I'm kind of fond of my school and I don't think I would have performed better anywhere else. If anything, I think lower performing students would do better in private schools because of the more disciplined academic atmosphere.
Yeah, I find that those fees are ridiculously high, but if you want to pay them, go ahead. I think you can have just as good quality education at a public school, as long as the student is open to the learning opportunities.
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Parents paying $12,000 for prep is a waste of money in my opinion. A private education is worth investing in at Year 7 perhaps, but dishing out thousands as said earlier for a prep to learn abc's is crazy.
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I go to a private school myself that costs around $14/15,000 a year, excluding compulsory building donations and laptop hiring. I think maybe a private school is worth it for year 7 and above but definitely not in primary school years. My private school has been incredibly beneficial for me as it challenged me and made me work harder instead of just lazing around (I did that in the private school before that, but it was a crappy private school - cost around $3,000 per year).
I think private schools then can be really helpful in motivating slackers and making them do better because of the more competitive environment. But sometimes you can become a bit snobby because of the social environment, and it's also hard when it's not a co-ed private school (like mine). But female private schools can be really helpful for girls as they gain more confidence in subjects such as the sciences and the maths that are usually dominated by males.
Umm...yeh... I may be a bit biased as I've gone to 3 different private schools since year 7, although I did go to a state primary school.
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Those fees are nothing compared to those of NSW.
I was surprised Melbourne Grammar(Boys) and Geelong Grammar were not on the list.
I have to somewhat agree (I go to Melbourne Grammar). The thing is, like half our year level (100 boys) are "all the way"; that is, they start in Prep at MGS (which is about 15k a year), and stay at the school for 13 years (except some go to timbertop for a year...). Anyway, out of those who started in prep, only one or two are 'top students' (academically). Virtually all of the top students come in at year 7 (which incidentally, is the year they offer scholarships for) or year 9 (another scholarship intake year).
As for the quality of education, I honestly would say that the quality is not much, if at all, better than a public school. HOWEVER, the intial image of the school makes it a confluence of many bright minds, and therefore, you are surrounded by good students (which I suppose can help bring ur level up). Really, much of the price u pay is for the peers (same with the uni's listed above like Harvard..., which actually has a very generous financial aid program; mean aid is 30k a year off price).
Another aspect of private schools is that they often teach subjects that are esoteric, and very marks-orientated. An example at our school is LATIN (number 1 subject for scaling...45 mean). So many students take it, and the school poaches the top Latin teachers in Victoria, so our scores in this subject are very high. I'm sure very few public schools (and I definitely do not refer to MHS or macrob, coz whilst they are public, they far surpass any other public schools) do any subjects for the sake of marks (out of 200 students a year level..100 do spec, 60 do latin, and next year, once classical greek starts up...i'm sure heaps will do that as well). Still, i'm not complaining - i luv the English faculty...so many 50s! and also...second highest school for 99.95s: we had 3..MLC had 4.
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(out of 200 students a year level..100 do spec,
Far out, out of ~170 at my one, about 15 people did spec this year. Including 2 year 11s.
I went to local public primary school, private HS. Coming into year 7 it was immediately obvious to me who went to the primary school - they had simply learnt a hell of a lot more, probably had teachers that actually understood maths and didn't pass it over to you to explain things etc. Their advantage didn't last for very long, by the end of year 7 I had caught up to them :D
I agree that it's probably the community there that makes it better than a public HS, actual quality of education I think I would have done almost as good at VCE anywhere. But in terms of having other people there that I got along with, that I wasn't clearly a huge gap ahead of the rest, that was great. And for learning things in general outside academic. Like, if it hadn't been for school making everyone do a summer/winter sport, I would have missed out on all that and that was definitely worth it, even it was like the junior E team. =P. Oh and getting to learn an instrument in year 7 as well, that rocked. =)
But female private schools can be really helpful for girls as they gain more confidence in subjects such as the sciences and the maths that are usually dominated by males.
In my IS class I was the only girl there, was by far the best subject I did in terms of entertainment value, generally having a good time etc =D. Maybe I'm an exception not a rule but
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I think I would have done almost as good at VCE anywhere.
This is very much the case; the top students (i.e. those who are inherently intelligent, those who are very motivated), like urself (evident from score) will always perform very well. However, it is exactly for this reason that those VCE statistics they publish in the paper each year always focus on the median scores. This is quite clearly because a school should be judged on how well it can bring up the middle student, not the talented student (whose score will be high regardless - about all a private school does for a talented student is boosts their ENTER a small amount). Again however, schools can somewhat artificially bring up their median ENTERs by getting students to do subjects for the sake of score, or, alternatively, artificially bring up the median study score by getting students to do predominantly subjects that the school is strong at. If you look at this year stats for example, Macrob and MHS (which have multitudes of talent) dominate at 1 and 2...but the next highest public school is at 27 (and even then, it is a subject selective school, VCA). i think all this rant has done is elucidate exactly how difficult it is to compare public and private schools..lol (pointless!)
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(whose score will be high regardless - about all a private school does for a talented student is boosts their ENTER a small amount).
A study done by Australian Council for Educational Research and the Melbourne Institute for Applied Economic and Social Research has found that: "When controlling for socioeconomic background and [Year 9] achievement in literacy and numeracy, the average ENTER score of independent and Catholic school students is 5 and 3 score points above that of government school students."
http://melbourneinstitute.com/conf/prevconf/Papers_presentations/Marks_Gary.pdf
Again however, schools can somewhat artificially bring up their median ENTERs by getting students to do subjects for the sake of score, or, alternatively, artificially bring up the median study score by getting students to do predominantly subjects that the school is strong at.
So what? There is nothing wrong with that.
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We were talking about people at the very top
My enter wouldn't be 95 if I went to a government school, it'd be like 99.70 or something
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The public education system would be choked if there wasn't a private alternative, as sad as I am to say this. It's a pity it's not funded any more (and in fact, private schools are funded even more by the Commonwealth Government).
I suppose we need choice, though.
I personally wouldn't send my children to private school...I'd try and get them into my alma mater though :)
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I can vouch for the small difference @ the high-end scale of ENTERs.
My good friend used to go to my low-rung government school with me, before she went on to do bigger and better things first @ Uni High, then @ Macrob for her final year. We were generally of equal intelligence, with the key difference being her strong favouring of sciences and her ESL, while my subjects were a bit more across the board and I did plain English. The difference in our scores? She only beat me by .55 (which, come to think of it, could actually be attributed to the more favourable scaling of her subjects). I certainly believe I saved my money... however, there certainly IS a difference, despite it being a small one. If I were in pursuit of a medicine degree or something more lucrative where every ENTER point counted, then perhaps my views would be different.
When it comes to a middle band student, my witnessing of the experiences of family and friends around me suggest that a stricter school with more dedicated staff can lead to an improvement more substantial than half a point (not necessarily private schools, but many of them seem to be sterotyped as such).
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I can vouch for the small difference @ the high-end scale of ENTERs.
My good friend used to go to my low-rung government school with me, before she went on to do bigger and better things first @ Uni High, then @ Macrob for her final year. We were generally of equal intelligence, with the key difference being her strong favouring of sciences and her ESL, while my subjects were a bit more across the board and I did plain English. The difference in our scores? She only beat me by .55 (which, come to think of it, could actually be attributed to the more favourable scaling of her subjects). I certainly believe I saved my money... however, there certainly IS a difference, despite it being a small one. If I were in pursuit of a medicine degree or something more lucrative where every ENTER point counted, then perhaps my views would be different.
When it comes to a middle band student, my witnessing of the experiences of family and friends around me suggest that a stricter school with more dedicated staff can lead to an improvement more substantial than half a point (not necessarily private schools, but many of them seem to be sterotyped as such).
Uni High and Macrob are both government funded schools though.... (?) And it's a fairly limited example, and there's no way to generalise with this information to all public/private sectors.
I agree with some of the views expressed thus far, that it's your choice on whether you'd like your child to attend a private/public school, but the private sector can be extremely expensive, and perhaps overpriced.
Also, a school shouldn't be judged purely on its quality by the median ENTER scores. If you're absolutely miserable where you are, but your school gets fantastic study score averages, then what's the point? A large proportion of school is about your experiences, not just your grades. (Of course, it's important that your school has excellent teaching methods and that they have resources in order to let you reach your full potential.)
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Macrob is still selective though; it was purely an example in light of cara.mel's estimations.
Never fear, everyone on this forum is well-aware of the fallacy in assuming the part represents the whole *cough* brendan *cough* :P
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Don't know if anyone has posted this...
http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/the-making-of-a-school/2007/12/18/1197740268972.html
An Opinion piece relating to Public and Private schools (including Catholic schools)
Edit: Changed link
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yeah me and nick1989 were discussing that article on irc yesterday. i do educational research, and Chris Wheat's opinion piece is misleading and not supported by hard evidence. i'm disappointed that he would talk such crap, but i'm not surprised. if i ever wanted to give a good example of bullshitting at its finest, Chris Wheat's piece is a prime example.
Here is a good summary of the empirical research evidence:
Professor Bill Louden
Head of School, Graduate School of Education, The University of Western Australia
Title: What makes the most difference - and what would it take to get more of it?
http://melbourneinstitute.com/conf/school/Presentations/Session%202/Louden,%20Bill_161107.pdf
Dr. Ken Rowe, PhD
Principal Research Fellow at the Australian Council for Educational Research
Background paper to keynote address presented at the ACER Research Conference 2003
Title: The Importance of Teacher Quality as a Key Determinant of Students’ Experiences and Outcomes of Schooling
http://www.acer.edu.au/documents/Rowe_ACER_Research_Conf_2003_Paper.pdf
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Yeh I was actually thinking as I read the article " This guy has basically failed to back up any of his arguments with evidence in any form". It was also very vague at times which was frustrating to try and develop a PoV on the issue.
I'll have a look at those links probably tommorow. Christmas today and just making a quick FSN stop over =)
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Dr. Ken Rowe, PhD
Principal Research Fellow at the Australian Council for Educational Research
"Making Schools Better Conference" Melbourne Business School, the University of Melbourne 2004
Title: The importance of teaching: Making Better Schools by building teacher capacities that maximise the quality of teaching & learning provision
http://melbourneinstitute.com/conf/prevconf/Papers_presentations/Rowe__Ken_presentation.pdf
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To me it all comes down to ones attitude and determination. If you want to do well, you will no matter where you're at. And if you don't, well, no Private school will help you.
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(http://home.exetel.com.au/brendan/teaching.PNG)
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for gods sake, i know many ppl who have gotten 99.90 and over in real life and all have gone to a private school. But you know what, i don't know wone person who got over 99.90 in real life that is, however 80% of thos people i know in them private schools have suffered in the real world compared to the public school students who have literally strolled through the real life because they have experienced it during school.
Those private school students, got they're first preference for university offers however after compeleting the course, i know many who have struggled to actually do well in the job while most the public students who have gaines their frist preferences for uni have succeed past uni and past school.
My point is, while most private school students reviece first class education they actually do not understand the difficulties in the real worl which they must face after their school years in which they are usually taken care of so well that they don't know what loosing means or what facing an obstacles really feels like.
btw this is just my view and im not saying all people in private or public schols are like this. This is just from my experiences and what i've seen
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I don't really see the logic behind this argument that says public education better prepares you for life. It might be the case that private schools spoon-feed you but I would say at the upper end, those people have been educated well enough to know how to teach themselves, and they will do well in life.
I don't see public schools educating you to any "real life" scenarios more so than private schools. All there is added in public schools is more failures and poor people. The only thing you miss out on is maybe learning how to respect poor people, but that is not going to cost you much in life, considering the poor people probably wont be doing you any favours (monetarily, at least).
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for gods sake, i know many ppl who have gotten 99.90 and over in real life and all have gone to a private school. But you know what, i don't know wone person who got over 99.90 in real life that is, however 80% of thos people i know in them private schools have suffered in the real world compared to the public school students who have literally strolled through the real life because they have experienced it during school.
Those private school students, got they're first preference for university offers however after compeleting the course, i know many who have struggled to actually do well in the job while most the public students who have gaines their frist preferences for uni have succeed past uni and past school.
My point is, while most private school students reviece first class education they actually do not understand the difficulties in the real worl which they must face after their school years in which they are usually taken care of so well that they don't know what loosing means or what facing an obstacles really feels like.
btw this is just my view and im not saying all people in private or public schols are like this. This is just from my experiences and what i've seen
I respect that this is your view and is based on your experiences and I commend you on sharing your thoughts with us.
I would like to offer a different opinion on your post though. You are correct in saying that most private school students receive first class education (with the fees at such a rate you would hope so!) but I have to disagree with you saying that we do not understand the difficulties in the real world. I know at my school, which as an all girls Catholic private school in the suburbs (not that elite but still up there) the majority of the student body experienced obstacles. Every one of my friends had to buy their own car, pay for their friends’ birthday presents and buy their own luxuries. We had parents divorcing, we had someone lose a close family member to a murder and other things which I think would be classed as difficulties.
In reference to your point about students succeeding past their university degrees I struggle to see how their high school education would make that much of a difference with how much they advance in their career (please note I am only talking about people who have gone onto university and then into their careers). The students, public and private, all attend university where things aren’t spoon fed to you (I’m yet to find this out for myself I’ll let you know in a few months if this is true! hehe) and therefore the private students who have had it easier in your opinion are no longer getting a less stressful ride than the public students. When the end of the degree comes and they are starting their employment wouldn’t they have similar habits to those of the public students because universities are all very similar?
I don’t think it is fair to stereotype all private students as snobs who have had everything they have ever wanted given to them without so much as raising a sweat. Mozart I am not saying that you have done this! We have experienced life obstacles too and trust me, we know what it’s like to lose and fail!
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re: "those people have been educated well enough to know how to teach themselves"
No-one can teach you to teach yourself; self-learning is a skill-set and frame of mind independent of intelligence, the price of an education and prior knowledge.
It's like riding a bike - someone can give you a friendly nudge, but in the end it's up to the individual.
Coblin to look down on poorer people and severely underestimate the importance of learning respect is to miss out on one of the most crucial lessons of all. I feel truly sorry for anyone on this forum who prizes money above their fellow man. I was really surprised that comment came from you... I hope I misinterpreted it.
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Coblin to look down on poorer people and severely underestimate the importance of learning respect
Coblin questioned the benefit of "learning how to respect poor people". This is quite distinct from learning how to respect people in general, and that in turn is quite distinct from actually respecting people in general.
No-one can teach you to teach yourself
Why not? Why can't someone teach a person self-learning skills?
what facing an obstacles really feels like.
There are some obstacles that young children are better off not facing such as:
1. Constant and increasing shortages of teachers in maths and science,
2. High turnoever rates of teachers (up to 50% in some remote government schools in Cape York)
3. A government created zoning system that deliberately prevents poor families from accessing the government schools of their choice that will perpetuate cycles of disadvantage if not removed.
4. Ridiculous difficulty of firing poor-performing teachers in government schools
5. A veil of secrecy in which public schools hide their performance data from the public.
6. The financial penalization of poor families opting-out of government schools by a highly questionable school funding formula that focuses on schools and not the student.
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A person can be taught HOW to be self-learning, but they cannot be taught to be self-learning. It's perfectly possible to teach someone the skills, but it's up to the individual to apply them. Just as you can instruct someone on how to ride a bike, but cannot ride it for them.
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put it this way, the government is restricting the poor from accessing quality education while it encourages the rich/powerful to be apart of them elite schools, and that includes public schools.
LOL i would like to see a celebrity at a public school XD.
Face the future people, New World Order is coming and it's everywhere around us. :p yes wierd but rathar intriguing :D
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A person can be taught HOW to be self-learning, but they cannot be taught to be self-learning.
Why not? Why can't you teach someone to be self-learning? How is teaching someone to be self-learning in anyway similar to "riding the bike for them"?
put it this way, the government is restricting the poor from accessing quality education while it encourages the rich/powerful to be apart of them elite schools, and that includes public schools.
LOL i would like to see a celebrity at a public school XD.
Face the future people, New World Order is coming and it's everywhere around us. :p yes wierd but rathar intriguing :D
That made little sense to me :P
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ya it didn't make sense to me neither until you look close :P
meh... fuck Private schools
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Fyrefly, I questioned the benefits of knowing how to respect poor people. I personally think the benefits will be small. It doesn't mean that I disrespect poor people. I guess you are demonstrating that there is a cost for not respecting the poor, they don't get your support! :P
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No-one can teach you to teach yourself
Why not? Why can't someone teach a person self-learning skills?
I think the ability to be able to learn by yourself is something you pick up from infancy and develop throughout your life. It doesn't happen independent of school but it seems to me that school helps by exposing you learning experiences. How individuals react to the experience and what they take up on it through reflection and hard work is almost solely dependent on the student.
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Coblin... I don't mean to say you have or do show poor people disrespect, that's not what I was trying to say... Forget I said anything, this has gone way off-topic.
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New world order PeoPle, don't trust your government!
oh yer and the VCAA is aPart of the NWO :P Oh well got to do well in VCE so i can work as a secretive CIA Agent to fuck uP them mother fukers!
btw who believes that Physics owns chemistry! +1 for me
ya it didn't make sense to me neither until you look close :P
meh... fuck Private schools
You should like private schools, if you're so paranoid about the government.
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private schools are so much better than pub holes, you get to mingle with nice mannered girls instead of clubbing junkie whores. You guys really need to think outside the square sometimes, seriously.
SHA BI
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I didn't even notice it. I was looking at the hypocrisy of his NWO claims, haha.
No-one can teach you to teach yourself
Why not? Why can't someone teach a person self-learning skills?
I think the ability to be able to learn by yourself is something you pick up from infancy and develop throughout your life. It doesn't happen independent of school but it seems to me that school helps by exposing you learning experiences. How individuals react to the experience and what they take up on it through reflection and hard work is almost solely dependent on the student.
I think education should have a focus on teaching people to self-learn. It is an important ability. (Clearly, proposing this is in my interests: less actual teachers means I will be more demanded as a tutor :P - but I mean it... seriously)
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I think it should too, but sometimes that's difficult, especially if you're teaching to an exam (which is basically what the VCE makes teachers do). It's much quicker to spoon feed kids the answer than to wait around for them to come up with it on their own. English classes are usually the best example. I remember we were given the essay topic a week before the SAC, and the teacher would talk on and on about how you would answer the said topic. Self-learning would involve none of that, it would involve thinkin properly about the topic, reviewing the book, reading critical analyses, etc. but there's just no time for that in the VCE. To some extent, I think all high school kids are 'spoon fed', not just the private school ones. Although the better students probably tend to be the ones who take the initiative outside of class as well.
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teaching people to self learn require them to be at least motivated
that is a fkn HUGE ask in a public school, as droodles put, they're mainly a bunch of clubbing junkie whores/dickheads...
my school has realised how important self learning is, but failed to see the great difficulty of implementation....
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that is a fkn HUGE ask in a public school, as droodles put, they're mainly a bunch of clubbing junkie whores/dickheads...
I hope you're joking...
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that is a fkn HUGE ask in a public school, as droodles put, they're mainly a bunch of clubbing junkie whores/dickheads...
I hope you're joking...
if you go down to a normal non-select entry public school, and some of the rather "obscured" places you'll understand what I mean...
every year at clean up we always manage to find a pile of cigarettes, some syringes, pill casings and condoms....
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that is a fkn HUGE ask in a public school, as droodles put, they're mainly a bunch of clubbing junkie whores/dickheads...
I hope you're joking...
if you go down to a normal non-select entry public school, and some of the rather "obscured" places you'll understand what I mean...
every year at clean up we always manage to find a pile of cigarettes, some syringes, pill casings and condoms....
She did go to one of those.
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that is a fkn HUGE ask in a public school, as droodles put, they're mainly a bunch of clubbing junkie whores/dickheads...
I hope you're joking...
if you go down to a normal non-select entry public school, and some of the rather "obscured" places you'll understand what I mean...
every year at clean up we always manage to find a pile of cigarettes, some syringes, pill casings and condoms....
As coblin said, I was a normal non-select entry public school student!
Some public schools are pretty dodgy, but it's not the majority of public schools that have all that filth everywhere. Most students are pretty decent in the public sector. Your generalisation is a bit offensive actually, it's like saying "private school kids are mainly a bunch of spoilt, stupid brats who do coke on the toilet seats", which isn't true at all (as far as I know...). Didn't you learn anything from Summer Heights High :P?
Besides, at least they're smart enough to be having safe sex :P.
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VCAA is stupid, im going to make my own educational system and all of the future gen teens will abide by this new system.
it will be called ACES meaning Australian complex educational system
(Moderator action (enwiabe): Fixed (unintentional) homophobic slur)
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VCAA is gay, im going to make my own educational system and all of the future gen teens will abide by this new system.
it will be called ACES meaning Australian complex educational system
good luck, but there is no perfect system, i'm sure there'll be people saying your one is gay, just that that group's demographics will be different...
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(http://www.nsxprime.com/photopost/data/500/ThreadDirection.jpg)
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LOL :2funny:
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About 40% of the year 12s next year at my school will get an ENTER of 60+
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About 40% of the year 12s next year at my school will get an ENTER of 60+
This year or next?
... either way, still applies. Haha.
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this i mean
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Isn't that normal though. 40% of students in the top 40% of the state
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there's way too many generalisations in this thread.
I'd have to say each school is an individual, you cant just lump all public, private or selective schools together. There are some awesome schools out there that provide wonderful education and prepare their students for the future (i.e don't spoonfeed them) and some of these are private, some public etc.
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About 40% of the year 12s next year at my school will get an ENTER of 60+
My school website:
With 43% of students receiving an ENTER over 60
SHIT YOU GO TO MY SCHOOL
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private schools will spoon feed you with everything you need and they probably have better learning envionments. some public schools are really terrible and have very little to provide their students. you kind of are disadvantaged because you need to go out of your way to do everything on your own. your class time is also alot less productive because of many factors, eg. dodgy teachers, class mates who aren't interested in school and are really noisy/distracting
if i had the money, i'd send my kids to private school. for vce at least
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I found that up until year 12, classes were badly affected by others who didn't want to work. I guess in year 7 and 8 the disruption was fairly minimal because I was in a 'high achievers' class, but in year 9 and 10 and even in year 11 some classes were a horrible waste of time. But, IMO it depends on the teacher. My friend who goes to a private school said that she was exposed to disruptive kids too. It seems pretty universal.
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Exodus in state school attendance
http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/state-school-student-drift/2008/02/29/1204226991431.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
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I'd rather not get into mod decisions, I have no idea what just got deleted. However, I do respect the fact that coblin identified himself as the mod to have taken action. I admire his willingness to accept the power AND the responsibility of being a mod, and that he's been gracious enough to supply an explanation.
Back on topic... I would never pay the money for a private school. I believe that it's not so much a school, as it is the teachers. I believe that a student who is willing to put the effort in will do well no matter what the school. That said though, 95+ enters become private/selective school territory because all the students in such a school tend to adopt an all-or-nothing mindset, and drive each other further. I don't have any such support or competition at my school, and I believe that may have acted to limit my enter to the lower 90s. However, I'm happy to have it that way, since I'm only striving for a 90 for my uni course and I'd consider any money spent to drive my enter higher than necessary as frivolous spending. If I wanted to get into medicine or something, then I'd consider asking my Dad to take out a second mortgage...
I totally agree with what you meant by people at your school having an influence on your education. Surely its up to the individual to do well, but certain factors such as peer mates all wanting to 'go to tafe' or get a standard year 12 pass (no offence to people who fall under this category) yet, i feel they do have influence over people.
I dont go to a private school, and for this sole reason, i wish i did, because i feel that people in my year are tring to bring me down when they see me suceed. So i congradulate you for doing so well last year. You got 97 ENTER? May i ask how you did it????
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I think if I ever have kids, regardless of my salary, I'd send them to public school.
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Personally, I would definitely send my children to a private school. If the current state of the public education system improved dramatically, then perhaps I’d consider it. MHS and Mac.Rob are good examples of how schools should be funded and what resources they should possess. I attended a public school for most of my schooling, and found I was just dragged down by the majority of my peers. I felt intimidated constantly, and I was taunted for working hard. I wasn’t in a conducive environment and ended up becoming despondent. I was unhappy about being at school. My parents eventually came to the conclusion that I needed to move schools, so I started trying out for scholarships. The teachers at the school bullied me, saying, ‘you’ll never get in, you’re not smart enough’. Etc.
Anyway, now I am at Wesley, and I’ve never looked back. I love absolutely every second of school :) I remember being amazed that there were never any physical fights at wesley... like ever. There was at least one every single lunch time at my old school.
I’m sure they’re some fantastic public schools, but unfortunately my experience within them has been rather unpleasant. I don’t want my potential children to go through the same thing!
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so I started trying out for scholarships. The teachers at the school bullied me, saying, ‘you’ll never get in, you’re not smart enough’. Etc.
that's pretty significant actually, are you sure that is what they said?
it's definitely in the teacher's own interests to bully you like that because for every student that leaves the school loses a bit of funding, and if you were smart, it would mean their average scores go down.
its like what i've always said. some teachers only care about their own ass, and are willing to sacrifice others to enrich themselves.
I think if I ever have kids, regardless of my salary, I'd send them to public school.
theres also a lot of parents that regardless of salary, send their kids to a private school
MHS and Mac.Rob are good examples of how schools should be funded and what resources they should possess.
If i'm not mistaken, MHS gets even less government funding than other government schools with the same number of students.
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Personally, I would definitely send my children to a private school. If the current state of the public education system improved dramatically, then perhaps I’d consider it. MHS and Mac.Rob are good examples of how schools should be funded and what resources they should possess. I attended a public school for most of my schooling, and found I was just dragged down by the majority of my peers. I felt intimidated constantly, and I was taunted for working hard. I wasn’t in a conducive environment and ended up becoming despondent. I was unhappy about being at school. My parents eventually came to the conclusion that I needed to move schools, so I started trying out for scholarships. The teachers at the school bullied me, saying, ‘you’ll never get in, you’re not smart enough’. Etc.
Anyway, now I am at Wesley, and I’ve never looked back. I love absolutely every second of school :) I remember being amazed that there were never any physical fights at wesley... like ever. There was at least one every single lunch time at my old school.
I’m sure they’re some fantastic public schools, but unfortunately my experience within them has been rather unpleasant. I don’t want my potential children to go through the same thing!
I had, like, the opposite experience in public school. It wasn't perfect by any means, but no school is. If I had the chance, I think I'd make years 9 and 10 more challenging for myself, but it all worked out quite well in the end. While I obviously wouldn't send anyone to an awful public school, I think there are many great ones out there despite not having tremendous amounts of funding. I think I also tend to preference small schools (not crazy small, more like around 500-600 students) over big schools.
I guess an exception to the public school thing is if my potential kid was offered a scholarship to go to a private school.
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I will send my children to private schools if I can afford it because I value it highly, so I will be willing to spend more on it. However, if money was tight, I would not hesitate to send my children to a public school that fosters a competitive learning environment (SEALP, for example).
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that's pretty significant actually, are you sure that is what they said?
Yep. Some teachers heard I was starting to apply for scholarships at private schools, and two of them made comments like that, saying I'd never be good enough and I'd never get in, so there's no point in trying etc. I know my experience was unfortunately not isolated; a family friend of mine who graduated from MHS last year had the same issue at the school. The school was pissed off that private schools/MHS and Mac.Rob were poaching their brightest students.
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The school was pissed off that private schools/MHS and Mac.Rob were poaching their brightest students.
I hate that attitude. It implies that schools have a right to particular students. What's worse is that it suggests that bright students have the responsibility of pulling up the worse students.
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I think it's more that the school feels as though they helped the student get where they are and if they move then another school gets the credit for their 'work'. But the question would be then, how responsible is the school for a student's academic success? In jess' case, clearly not very, although I think some schools do really try to support and put a lot of resources into their brighter students, so maybe the schools have the right to feel pissed off? But then again, the student would probably stay at the school if they realised that it was putting in a good effort anyway.
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The school was pissed off that private schools/MHS and Mac.Rob were poaching their brightest students.
i'd tell 'em to stick it where the sun don't shine. tough titties. if they did a better job, the student have moved in the first place.
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I think if I had the money, I would send my children to private schools - but small ones (that way its easier to make friends and to get to know your peers and teachers). I would consider sending my daughter/s to girls schools and boy/s to co-ed schools due the research about performance. I've never really experienced high school at a state school so I think my first choice would always be a private school.
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I go to a private school after previously attending a state school. In my opinion the difference is huge, the teachers really care alot about there students, the atmosphere is great and not to mention all the guys/girls there are really welcoming. Although I doubt the extra 15k is really worth it unless you have that money to spend. I came on a scholarship for sport and if i did not gain this i would never have thought about going.
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I go to a private shcool and my fee's are around $7000 a year. It is a independent, christian school and very small (1000 students from Kinder to Y12). I love it, the teachers are amazing and REALLY care for us, the students are, mostly, really good and there isn't a huge focus on academia. Our highest score last year was 99.8, which is the highest the school has ever got (I think...). The teachers are more focused on us, than our marks. That being said however, it is the highest achieving christian school in the state.
Private schools do have their pluses and I am going to send my children to one in year 7- but in primary... I think public would be better.
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private > government
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I go to a public school but I go to a one of the best public schools in the state. I don't have a problem with public schooling but I will admit there are some public schools that need serious improvement. I suppose if you were choosing where to send your kids, I'd probably suggest trying to get into a high achieving public school first and if that fails, then fork out the money for private school. But in the end, it's really up to the person and how much effort they put into school.
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yup... i think its like 60% teacher 40% student and no matter where you go its all up to the quality of teachers pretty much and it would be decent to have good facilities. so yeah i wreckon government schools r better cause theres like more diversity... like multiculural ppl kinda thing... and like you don't waste a fortune in education when you could get the same thing out of a government school. so yeah... i would say government schools r good. they are definitely not bad... well the one i went to wasn't.
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depends what you want; private and govt schools are good for different things
like with uni residential colleges, mine which is self-catered and pretty independent costs 6.2k pa
my sister lives at Medley Hall which costs 17k pa, but those costs go somewhere
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Beware stereotyping private schools
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3456
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The private school I went to yrs 6-beginning of yr11 [Kido's school and where went the eponymous Umelb Law student Miranda Airey-Branson] is thought to be much better academically than local public schools for yrs 7-10. However for VCE, the teaching standard at the local state school seemed just as good, save for a few dud teachers. For those who had the choice, it was about whether you wanted all the trimmings of going to a private school, as opposed to one where you just went to classes and met friends afterwards.
Especially with "high-end" private schools, I doubt many people pay 16-20k a year just to [supposedly] optimise their ENTER
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when you spend $15,000 and upwards in a private school full of students who aren't dumb trashy bogan/junkies you will that it is worth it rather than spend your highschool years in a public school where you are surrounded by future junkies/crackheads/hoons.
I myself would've loved going to Wesley.
I go/did go to a public school and whilst yes a lot of the students are mind numbing idiots there are a lot of intelligent and passionate people who will get very high ENTERs and go to do something meanimgful with there lives.
Just because your school sucked doesn't mean all public schools do.
For the record I think for the most part private school is a waste of time but its your prerogative so have fun.
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waste of 10,000+ a year for private schools. Rather save that money for something useful... e.g. car, house etc.
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I'm a private school boy, and its not just about vce success. There are many other elements to it like religion, opportunities, and sport.
I know i've had opportunities that my public school mates have never been afforded, which is one reason why the price is justified
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I'm a private school boy, and its not just about vce success. There are many other elements to it like religion, opportunities, and sport.
I know i've had opportunities that my public school mates have never been afforded, which is one reason why the price is justified
Yeh religion was a factor when my parents decided to send me to a private (or semi-private) school.
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I'm a private school boy, and its not just about vce success. There are many other elements to it like religion, opportunities, and sport.
I know i've had opportunities that my public school mates have never been afforded, which is one reason why the price is justified
I agree, many ppl forget this, they just pit a private school's fees against the benefits of greater academic success.
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http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2008/11/private-or-public-school-for-obama.html
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I disagree with this comment. I don't think it's hypocritical to support public eductation but choose private for your children.
"This is what I find absolutely appaling. How can a person state the importance of public education then send his children to private schools. Next is Universal Healthcare. I bet you he will use private services rather then his beloved Universal Healthcare System. As a society we are destined to two classes of people (the contacted and everyone else) just like the USSR. Oh joy."
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Sorry to 'bump' this thread, but this issue has been playing in mind for quite a while.
Being in Year 12, I do often consider whether my SAC marks, motivation, teachers etc... would be better if I were in a school that charges in excess of $15,000.
From the evidence I've gathered from this thread, and from personal evidence I've collected from various sources (friends that attend the said schools, meeting teachers from those schools etc...) it does seem worth it; the 'best' teachers in the state, picturesque grounds, 'world class' facilities, a class average of 90 ENTERs. This is what ultimately provides a child the best platform for any person to succeed (well, in accordance to the Australian education system).
I guess the elite private school thing is more for image; a 'Hey look at what I can afford!' thing other then just for the marks. But most non-elitist Catholic schools offer the same thing as most leading elite private schools do; but at a fraction of the price. I go to a pretty good suburban Catholic school, and it ticks most, if not all the boxes that categorize most of these elite schools (lol, in accordance to the 'Bitch please, I went to private school in Kew...' facebook group haha). Blazer; check, single-sex education; check etc...
But yet again, only if these opportunities are recognized and used are they ever worth that amount of money. There are many good/great public schools out there.
I have personally come to the conclusion that, it is not the school that defines a child's performance, but it is the child's inherent desire to succeed. But needless to say, the private school environment does help with the motivation.
I've decided to stick my future kids in a nice non-elitist Catholic school; a good balance between the 'bad' and the 'best'. I have a half a mind to enroll them into a bad public school, then chuck them into those $15,000 a year schools in their last two years of VCE just so they have the best of both worlds.
But yet again, I may just do it the other way around; elite private school first then dump them into a bad public school just so they appreciate what they've been through, a nice little kick in the ass. Haha.
To reiterate, it really is up to the child as to whether those 6 or more years of $15,000+ fees were worth it in the end.
Unless you earn as much as Oprah and have just come to the point where you shit money out of your ass, then congratulations, I am now your newly adopted child.
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the 'best' teachers in the state
I personally go to a private school and to be honest some of the teachers that are there are actually horrible. I'd probs go as far as saying their the worst in the state. I can not even begin to describe how bad some of them are...
Yes there are some really good teachers and they are really smart in their area, but to be honest some of them have absolutely no idea how to teach... to convey their knowledge...
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I also went to a private school and had one of the worst teachers I've ever met when I did 1/2 physics. He pretty much told us that it wasn't his job to "spoon-feed" us and that we had to teach ourselves with the textbook, then spent all the lessons discussing political, ethical, environmental, anything-except-physics issues. The only person who did half-decently in that class went on to get a 50 in 3/4 :P
I also had a brilliant chemistry teacher who consistently turns out 45+ (and at least one 50) students every year. It's more of a luck of the draw thing I think.
I did have a rather smart cohort in some of my classes, but that's probably more because private schools can afford to attract smarter students through awarding academic scholarships etc rather than really good teachers.
I do think it is more the student than the school. To take an extreme example, Mao went to a public school in woopwoop (sorry :P) and got a higher ENTER than me, who's been in a private school since year 5.
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But having said that, wouldn't everyone's interpretation of what a "bad" teacher is be different?
For example, in a private school, you might deem a person as a "horrible" teacher but in another school, other students might see them as an excellent teacher.
It's all open for interpretation, wouldn't it?
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But having said that, wouldn't everyone's interpretation of what a "bad" teacher is be different?
For example, in a private school, you might deem a person as a "horrible" teacher but in another school, other students might see them as an excellent teacher.
It's all open for interpretation, wouldn't it?
Quite true, but some teachers I have at the moment, you ask them a question, a plain simple question, they say "Oh, sorry I don't know I will get back to you."
And guess what? They never do.
When you ask them "have you done the question I asked you about?"
They say "I'll get back to you."
Nice, so when are they gonna get back to me?
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Nice, so when are they gonna get back to me?
I'll have to get back to you for that :P
But anyways how extreme is it? Do you end up teaching the teachers?
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But having said that, wouldn't everyone's interpretation of what a "bad" teacher is be different?
For example, in a private school, you might deem a person as a "horrible" teacher but in another school, other students might see them as an excellent teacher.
It's all open for interpretation, wouldn't it?
I don't think so... though separated by schools, if we all had the same teacher, I would think the consensus would be pretty much the same, save a few 'I'll be the different one and look cool' kids. Most kids either learn one way or another, and if the teacher doesn't fit either of the two learning categories, then they're better off somewhere else.
But I guess some kids may find one teacher better then others. It really depends.
I think the only problem with teachers is that though they may be over-qualified and bursting at the seams with knowledge, it's how they convey their knowledge that can be the problem.
For example, my methods teacher this year; Head of the Math department, is qualified to teach at least 5 VCE subjects, went to really good universities, can do any math problem I can throw at him from the text book and get it right etc...
But he can't.... teach. It came to the point where he stopped lecturing/teaching and just let us do our own thing. We ask him how to do something, he'll give us the answer, but can't tell us how he got it in a way we students can understand. You know what I mean? He's awesome and everything, but he can't ... teach me.
I'd have to spend 2 periods with him to fully understand a question when I could have just gone to the scary, intimidating Scottish methods teacher and would have understood it in a considerably less amount of time, even through his thick accent. He by the way, got my Year 11 methods average up a whole grade in one semester. Again, an example that its their teaching method that gets students those As.
Oh, and I've had experience with two teachers from the same Kew private school (I won't name the school for privacy reasons), one was extremely, extremely awesome. Like, if I had he/she as a teacher, I would have definitely gotten at least over 45. But the other one... not so good. I would have died and struggled in his/her class, even though he/she went to Oxford(I think, it might have been Cambridge...) and had all these other prestigious degrees under his/her belt. And with that, I still think the agreement between who was the better teacher was pretty obvious from the response of the class.
I guess it is the luck of the draw. Which is really unfortunate for me, because I would have killed/sabotaged numerous students to have gotten the Scottish methods teacher. :knuppel2:
Bummer. :'(
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Nice, so when are they gonna get back to me?
I'll have to get back to you for that :P
But anyways how extreme is it? Do you end up teaching the teachers?
oh yeah, especially my chem and methods.
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But having said that, wouldn't everyone's interpretation of what a "bad" teacher is be different?
Yeah but surely there are some common standards :P
My physics teacher said (verbatim) "my job is not to teach you". I dropped physics because I didn't understand a thing with him (and didn't have the motivation/interest to learn the stuff myself). I doubt you'd find anyone who would consider him a good teacher :P
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Physics teacher: super bad
English teacher: super good
MUSIC TEACHER: SUPER AWESOME BECAUSE SHE UNDERSTOOD WE DIDN'T LIKE DOING THEORY SO WE BLUDGED!!!!!!
full disclosure: I attended a public school.
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Physics teacher: super bad
English teacher: super good
MUSIC TEACHER: SUPER AWESOME BECAUSE SHE UNDERSTOOD WE DIDN'T LIKE DOING THEORY SO WE BLUDGED!!!!!!
full disclosure: I attended a public school.
Soz for off-topic post but:
You did music for VCE? What instrument do you play?
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Electric Bass
(I can read music too!!!!11111)
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Electric Bass
(I can read music too!!!!11111)
ahhhh that's awesome man! (Y)
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Electric Bass
(I can read music too!!!!11111)
Surely not.
*runs*
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Electric Bass
(I can read music too!!!!11111)
Surely not.
*runs*
The perils of being TRAINED for CONCERT BANDS. Probably better for it, however :P
And whenever a tough guy tries to outsmart you at the music shop, you can just shoot him in the face with some musical knowledge (true story).
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the 'best' teachers in the state
I personally go to a private school and to be honest some of the teachers that are there are actually horrible. I'd probs go as far as saying their the worst in the state. I can not even begin to describe how bad some of them are...
Yes there are some really good teachers and they are really smart in their area, but to be honest some of them have absolutely no idea how to teach... to convey their knowledge...
BMW
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the 'best' teachers in the state
I personally go to a private school and to be honest some of the teachers that are there are actually horrible. I'd probs go as far as saying their the worst in the state. I can not even begin to describe how bad some of them are...
Yes there are some really good teachers and they are really smart in their area, but to be honest some of them have absolutely no idea how to teach... to convey their knowledge...
BMW
Lol so true and also when normal force is larger than your weight < now that is what I called the worst teacher in the state.
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the 'best' teachers in the state
I personally go to a private school and to be honest some of the teachers that are there are actually horrible. I'd probs go as far as saying their the worst in the state. I can not even begin to describe how bad some of them are...
Yes there are some really good teachers and they are really smart in their area, but to be honest some of them have absolutely no idea how to teach... to convey their knowledge...
BMW
Lol so true and also when normal force is larger than your weight < now that is what I called the worst teacher in the state.
What if ur teacher is a JJJ, then ur screwed for chem.....
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the 'best' teachers in the state
I personally go to a private school and to be honest some of the teachers that are there are actually horrible. I'd probs go as far as saying their the worst in the state. I can not even begin to describe how bad some of them are...
Yes there are some really good teachers and they are really smart in their area, but to be honest some of them have absolutely no idea how to teach... to convey their knowledge...
BMW
Lol so true and also when normal force is larger than your weight < now that is what I called the worst teacher in the state.
What if ur teacher is a JJJ, then ur screwed for chem.....
I beleive that comments about your teachers should be kept for msn. Not trying to be rude, but it's not fun for the rest of us.
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The only difference from my view is the environment.
The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
Otherwise, there aint much of a difference.
Home School FTW :P
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The only difference from my view is the environment.
The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
Otherwise, there aint much of a difference.
Home School FTW :P
I don't really think that is true. No matter what school you go to, there will be people who genuinely want to do well. Likewise, there will be those who don't care as much. Saying that people who can afford to go to private schools are more motivated is a load of rubbish.
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The only difference from my view is the environment.
The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
Otherwise, there aint much of a difference.
Home School FTW :P
I don't really think that is true. No matter what school you go to, there will be people who genuinely want to do well. Likewise, there will be those who don't care as much. Saying that people who can afford to go to private schools are more motivated is a load of rubbish.
if thats what you think, welldone.
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The only difference from my view is the environment.
The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
Otherwise, there aint much of a difference.
Home School FTW :P
I don't really think that is true. No matter what school you go to, there will be people who genuinely want to do well. Likewise, there will be those who don't care as much. Saying that people who can afford to go to private schools are more motivated is a load of rubbish.
being schooled in both public and private schools, i have to agree with this.
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The only difference from my view is the environment.
The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
Otherwise, there aint much of a difference.
Home School FTW :P
I don't really think that is true. No matter what school you go to, there will be people who genuinely want to do well. Likewise, there will be those who don't care as much. Saying that people who can afford to go to private schools are more motivated is a load of rubbish.
So if it's not the teachers are private schools, then one of the factors influencing the results of those students could be the environment in which private school students are subjected to.
Generally speaking, some private schools release students who "don't want to be there" to the point where the school is only left with only the cream of the crop so there will always be a more competitive atmosphere.
EDIT: Post edited for grammatical errors.
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It is open for interpretation. Different students learn better through different teachers (or even delivery methods of learning altogether - some may not even need teachers!). I'm not going to stand up and say what's the best way to account for this, but I believe more flexibility in the education arena should be allowed so that new things can be tried.
You can still choose the traditional route if you want, or try out pioneering methods (which may succeed or fail). Let the evolutionary mechanism of the marketplace weed out the poor innovators and reward the great innovators.
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The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
You don't always have that environment in private schools either, so your point is moot.
I have only heard of one case where a student was asked to go to a different school because his results were not good enough to go into year 12 (that person ended up with a 98+ ENTER so god knows what the school was thinking). Otherwise, many private schools would be reluctant to expel a student just because their academic record was not up to scratch. As long as their parents can keep paying the school fees the school will turn a blind eye. They want the money to build chapels and pretty new halls so that they can *look* like a private school.
This is from experience - in almost all my classes there were people who were so unmotivated and lazy that I just didn't understand why they'd continue to waste their parents' money. They were the people who got ENTERs of 15.xx and 24.xx.
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The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
You don't always have that environment in private schools either, so your point is moot.
I have only heard of one case where a student was asked to go to a different school because his results were not good enough to go into year 12 (that person ended up with a 98+ ENTER so god knows what the school was thinking). Otherwise, many private schools would be reluctant to expel a student just because their academic record was not up to scratch. As long as their parents can keep paying the school fees the school will turn a blind eye. They want the money to build chapels and pretty new halls so that they can *look* like a private school.
This is from experience - in almost all my classes there were people who were so unmotivated and lazy that I just didn't understand why they'd continue to waste their parents' money. They were the people who got ENTERs of 15.xx and 24.xx.
Really? Some private schools are "...reluctant to expel a student"? I thought some of those elite schools do a "spring cleaning" at the end of year 10 or something like that to keep only the best of the best so ensure that their median study score and "% study scores over 40" remained high.
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I've only heard of one school doing that. I think the schools would prefer to keep earning the (exorbitantly high) tuition fees that these students bring in :P
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The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
You don't always have that environment in private schools either, so your point is moot.
I have only heard of one case where a student was asked to go to a different school because his results were not good enough to go into year 12 (that person ended up with a 98+ ENTER so god knows what the school was thinking). Otherwise, many private schools would be reluctant to expel a student just because their academic record was not up to scratch. As long as their parents can keep paying the school fees the school will turn a blind eye. They want the money to build chapels and pretty new halls so that they can *look* like a private school.
This is from experience - in almost all my classes there were people who were so unmotivated and lazy that I just didn't understand why they'd continue to waste their parents' money. They were the people who got ENTERs of 15.xx and 24.xx.
Really? Some private schools are "...reluctant to expel a student"? I thought some of those elite schools do a "spring cleaning" at the end of year 10 or something like that to keep only the best of the best so ensure that their median study score and "% study scores over 40" remained high.
I know our school did a 'spring cleaning' at the end of year 10 and I wouldn't regard it as an elite school, but i don't think it was for academic purposes :P
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whats a spring cleaning?
interesting. My school doesn't do that, maybe they should.
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The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
You don't always have that environment in private schools either, so your point is moot.
I have only heard of one case where a student was asked to go to a different school because his results were not good enough to go into year 12 (that person ended up with a 98+ ENTER so god knows what the school was thinking). Otherwise, many private schools would be reluctant to expel a student just because their academic record was not up to scratch. As long as their parents can keep paying the school fees the school will turn a blind eye. They want the money to build chapels and pretty new halls so that they can *look* like a private school.
This is from experience - in almost all my classes there were people who were so unmotivated and lazy that I just didn't understand why they'd continue to waste their parents' money. They were the people who got ENTERs of 15.xx and 24.xx.
Really? Some private schools are "...reluctant to expel a student"? I thought some of those elite schools do a "spring cleaning" at the end of year 10 or something like that to keep only the best of the best so ensure that their median study score and "% study scores over 40" remained high.
I know our school did a 'spring cleaning' at the end of year 10 and I wouldn't regard it as an elite school, but i don't think it was for academic purposes :P
My school only does a "spring cleaning" for extreme circumstances. Most of the times, these sort of "cleanings" happen because it's either for behaviour that has brought disrepute to the school or if someone's marks are extremely low (and that's rarely the case because you'd have to pretty much do no work and get < 10% in each exam).
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The private schools, you have a studying environment and in public, well you don't always have that environment.
You don't always have that environment in private schools either, so your point is moot.
I have only heard of one case where a student was asked to go to a different school because his results were not good enough to go into year 12 (that person ended up with a 98+ ENTER so god knows what the school was thinking). Otherwise, many private schools would be reluctant to expel a student just because their academic record was not up to scratch. As long as their parents can keep paying the school fees the school will turn a blind eye. They want the money to build chapels and pretty new halls so that they can *look* like a private school.
This is from experience - in almost all my classes there were people who were so unmotivated and lazy that I just didn't understand why they'd continue to waste their parents' money. They were the people who got ENTERs of 15.xx and 24.xx.
Really? Some private schools are "...reluctant to expel a student"? I thought some of those elite schools do a "spring cleaning" at the end of year 10 or something like that to keep only the best of the best so ensure that their median study score and "% study scores over 40" remained high.
I know our school did a 'spring cleaning' at the end of year 10 and I wouldn't regard it as an elite school, but i don't think it was for academic purposes :P
My school only does a "spring cleaning" for extreme circumstances. Most of the times, these sort of "cleanings" happen because it's either for behaviour that has brought disrepute to the school or if someone's marks are extremely low (and that's rarely the case because you'd have to pretty much do no work and get < 10% in each exam).
Haha, yeah, my school does that. 'Spring cleaning', nice way of putting it! They did this through year 9, 10 and 11 mainly. But even with that, there were still a few bad apples left.
My school has this policy where if they fail either one of English or Religion, they fail the year in its entirety and is considered for expulsion lol.
So if you fail religion, you're pretty much screwed.
Especially if you fail it in Year 12... they'll withhold your graduation from high school till you pass.
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I go to an expensive (12-13000) inner eastern private school and although I have attended this school from year 7 on I question exactly how much a better teacher helps. Make no mistake I have great teachers and enjoy good relationships with them but the people I see succeed do so because they study ALOT. Going to an expensive private school does nothing if you don't study. I do concede, however, that in my cohort everyone is pushed to study, not just the boys who want to get 99+. everyone else is studying and if you slack off you are the odd one out (peer pressure to study lol.) and I have never seen anyone expelled and the school in fact gave scholarships to multiple underprivileged boys in year 11-12 which is certaintly not to boost enter scores. EDIT: assuming nothing drastic happens at the school I would mortgage my house to send my children to the same school I went to
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I go to a public school, and I don't believe that private school's offer much more than public school's other than higher fees and what's likely to be a better cohort. better teachers aren't guaranteed at private schools, I mean, my english teacher went to MacRob and teaches all three types of VCE english, I think it's safe to say that's a pretty high-quality teacher.
I like public schools, it's a fair education, it's just a shame they don't get more funding
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Who saw the article in the age on Saturday/Sunday about "elite" private schools taking government grants, making huge surpluses then spending the money on building rather than lowering fees? Personally I agree with whoever said that if these students were released into the public system they would cost the government far more. Opinions?
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I do attend an 'elite' school to put it frankly and true, I don't really see much difference between Public and Private schools. I'd probably agree that the cohort and teachers are better at Private schools, but that's pretty much it. I've got a cousin, the same age as me, who goes to a normal Public school and from what he's told me, it's not really a big gap.
I'd say it doesn't matter what school you go to, everyone has the desire to do well and your goals are achievable. Being at private school doesn't guarantee success for every student, like any other school, there are always the dud kids who never work or muck around. My English teacher even said that students that go to 'private schools' like mine, will have a higher chance of dropping out of uni because in comparsion to other schools, we're 'spoon-fed' with information etc. and when we reach uni, it will be a reality shock for students who go to Private schools (not all though).
There are most likely students who are doing just as well or better than students at my school. Someone getting the A and A+'s at a Public school would be well off than someone getting C and C+'s at a Private school. The difference isn't that big.
Going to an expensive private school does nothing if you don't study. I do concede, however, that in my cohort everyone is pushed to study, not just the boys who want to get 99+.
I'd agree with that. Nothing should be taken for granted.
You have to may your own success, don't rely on someone or something to get it for you.
Also, I've seen about 4 or 5 students leave the school, either caused they've been expelled or they've been told to leave.
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Might I come out and suggest that going to private schools for "better" academics isn't really the point? Whilst it's true that by nature private schools will often "buy" out better teachers/resources/etc., many parents recognise that academic excellence is probably enforced more rigorously at schools such as MHS or MacRob, where everyone pretty much pressures each other into doing well (and given from what I've seen, probably to a harsher extent than the competitiveness at private schools).
The reason so many parents send their kids to private schools is because of the "human" education such schools provide: I don't intend to sound elitist, because I firmly believe that it's the student that chooses the school, rather than vice-versa (ie. a lot of kids will get a lot more out of a public school education), but the focus of private schools is to foster integrity and well-roundedness within individuals. Things like "traditional" house systems, compulsary sport/community service, well-funded music facilities etc. are there to allow students to build upon their non-academic side, and I think it's no coincidence that a lot of high-profile individuals come out of such a system.
With that said, I'd like to re-iterate that I don't think this makes private schools intrinsically better. Obviously it depends a lot on what kind of person you are, since if you want to focus on academics or somebody who wants to go into research, say, then I can't see the private school system being all that worth it. Hell, even in terms of co-currics, there are alternatives which can work better for some people - VCA for Music/Theatre, a LOT of schools (or even just a sporting club...) for sports, etc. What I'd just like you all to realise though is that there IS a point to private schools, and I for one am personally quite happy that I was given the privelege of attending one.
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Speaking from a person that transferred from a public and private school, i myself have noticed a vast improvement both emotionally and academically.
I could go on for a lifetime about why i prefer my private school to the public school i was previously at
So let's just dot point it
- I am now less of a brat
- I have a more positive friends group that actually care about school
- There are more resources at my private school
-People actually care about school
-COMMUNITY. I CANNOT stress this enough. The sense of community and 'together as one-ness :D ' at my school is insane. Along with all the school activities my school makes up leads to an extremely positive year level
- My grades are improving significantly
- The teachers actually care, and are willing to stay after school to help you
- The toilets are nicer
- There are actual study rooms
I could go on for a while...
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Compulsory sport and community service are common at other schools as well. Just thought I'd put that in.
I think it's impossible to generalise about private schools and public schools. Some public schools, such as Princes Hill, develop a real "arty" culture which rivals almost any private school. There's no denying that the very elite private schools have more funding: I'm envious of the facilities for science at Scotch. In this respect, students at the very top private schools have all of the resources that they need... which certainly makes it easier to undergo independent research projects or enter competitions. I know that Sydney Grammar had advanced extension classes in which they study a variety of subjects, and I think I would've loved to have done something like that.
State schools often don't have great facilities, which sometimes makes a difference. The very top state schools (think Mac.Rob and MHS) get a handful of teachers with prestigious qualifications (I know a geography teacher at MHS who went to Cambridge), but private schools can often fund many teachers with PhDs. Other good state schools often have very passionate teachers who know their stuff (but without the huge name research achievements and degrees)... and these teachers are often the ones who make a real difference. I do feel as though students at schools such as Scotch and Melbourne Grammar have far more opportunities than most other students: they're exposed to so much more. Students at these schools know about applying to the top courses in Australia and places overseas because it's the norm. At selective schools, a lot of people apply for medicine and law, but it's hard to find information about other things from your peers... if you want to do a great science degree or go to university interstate (and NOT apply for medicine), you have to do a lot of your own research. This isn't a bad thing, but you're certainly at a disadvantage compared to students at some of the very top private schools.
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Speaking from a person that transferred from a public and private school, i myself have noticed a vast improvement both emotionally and academically.
I could go on for a lifetime about why i prefer my private school to the public school i was previously at
So let's just dot point it
- I am now less of a brat
- I have a more positive friends group that actually care about school
- There are more resources at my private school
-People actually care about school
-COMMUNITY. I CANNOT stress this enough. The sense of community and 'together as one-ness :D ' at my school is insane. Along with all the school activities my school makes up leads to an extremely positive year level
- My grades are improving significantly
- The teachers actually care, and are willing to stay after school to help you
- The toilets are nicer
- There are actual study rooms
I could go on for a while...
your reasons seem to indicate that your old school was bad moreso than private schools are good. I would vouch that a lot of public schools are NOT like your old one. "Less of a brat" is really a personal thing, "more positive frindship group that actually care about school" perhaps you should've chosen your friends more wisely? And there are a portion of people at my school (and undoubtedly, every other school) that want to do well and care about school. And teachers at my school care, and are willing to help- and generallly stay after school anyway, though i'm not sure if they'd stay any longer than usual to help. I don't ask, seems a little inconsiderate really.
to generalise that everyone who goes to a public school cares about school is probably false, I know someone who goes to a private school and they tell me some people there just as bad as those who don't care at my school.
i'd probably have to agree with you about the better facilities though... to an extent. I mean, our school has a decent library, plenty of computers and the like.
To be honest I don't see the value of private schools, in regards to EvangelionZeta's post shouldn't non-academic pursuits be pursued out of school? Also, I had to do compulsory community service for school and sport was compulsory up until year 10.
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
This is basically the difference. I think it's hard to argue that the average public school will offer the same opportunities as the average private school, but whether you consider the difference worth several thousand dollars a year is a matter for the parents to decide based on their financial circumstances.
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This is basically the difference. I think it's hard to argue that the average public school will offer the same opportunities as the average private school, but whether you consider the difference worth several thousand dollars a year is a matter for the parents to decide based on their financial circumstances.
haha, condenses 145 replies into a single point.
yeah i'd say cost is a huge part of it, but in all honesty i'd never go to a private school simply because of the uniforms. The only reason I chose my school was actually because it had no uniforms. unless of course the private school could guarantee me a better future than that of a public school which it can't- it can force students to work harder, but it's always down to the students in the end.
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
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I go to a public school, and I don't believe that private school's offer much more than public school's other than higher fees and what's likely to be a better cohort. better teachers aren't guaranteed at private schools, I mean, my english teacher went to MacRob and teaches all three types of VCE english, I think it's safe to say that's a pretty high-quality teacher.
I like public schools, it's a fair education, it's just a shame they don't get more funding
+1000000 billion.
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
Ah well I'd have to disagree with you there. In my school, over 2 hours of every day is devoted to religious studies. And bear in mind this is year 12 we're talking about.
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I would vouch that a lot of public schools are NOT like your old one. "Less of a brat" is really a personal thing, "more positive frindship group that actually care about school" perhaps you should've chosen your friends more wisely? And there are a portion of people at my school (and undoubtedly, every other school) that want to do well and care about school. And teachers at my school care, and are willing to help- and generallly stay after school anyway, though i'm not sure if they'd stay any longer than usual to help. I don't ask, seems a little inconsiderate really.
to generalise that everyone who goes to a public school cares about school is probably false, I know someone who goes to a private school and they tell me some people there just as bad as those who don't care at my school.
No, sorry i never meant to generalize. I was just saying from personal experience. And yeah, sure i could have 'chosen my friends more wisely' but whatever happened happened.
I was also more influenced with drugs, stealing etc at the school, which could maybe be due to the lower SES of those families compared to private schools. I'm not meaning to be offensive with that previous sentence either, but it could be a factor.
I'm just saying what I believe, and i'm not against public schools at all. I had a lot of fun at that school.
And you're right...there's always people that want to do well and always people who hate school- no matter where they go
Sorry if i offended you in any way
:D :D :D
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Ah well I'd have to disagree with you there. In my school, over 2 hours of every day is devoted to religious studies. And bear in mind this is year 12 we're talking about.
and do you enjoy that?
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
There's nothing to learn from religion? even in an educational. . no especially in an educational paradigm?
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yeah i'd say cost is a huge part of it, but in all honesty i'd never go to a private school simply because of the uniforms.
are you serious lol.
I would probably send my kids to a private school if they fail the selective school test though, if I had the money. Unless public schools magically become awesome by the time I have to think about this.
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Ah well I'd have to disagree with you there. In my school, over 2 hours of every day is devoted to religious studies. And bear in mind this is year 12 we're talking about.
and do you enjoy that?
well tbh it's the first 2 hours of the day, so often I'm tired/asleep. But otherwise, yes, definitely.
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If you're interested in religion- go for it.
But i don't think 3 year olds really have the choice to go to a catholic school.
Shit, i probably shouldn't have gotten into this topic. It's extremely controversial
*backs away slowly*
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But otherwise, yes, definitely.
Then more power to you bud.
I know so many of my friends that despise it
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
Well if you don't see the point of them, don't go to one (which I assume you don't). I don't see the point for Ferraris, they're unnecessarily fast, cars aren't about speeding, cars are for driving.
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I appreciate your opinion but who says students don't learn at religious schools? Would you know? Have you been to one?
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errm who said cars werent about speeding??
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
Well if you don't see the point of them, don't go to one (which I assume you don't). I don't see the point for Ferraris, they're unnecessarily fast, cars aren't about speeding, cars are for driving.
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I appreciate your opinion but who says students don't learn at religious schools? Would you know? Have you been to one?
can't be bothered editing the quotes down, sorry. but akira my point was that religion and education can easily be kept seperate. it's like my earlier point about music not having to be offered through schools. generally, schools are the only place (other than tutors which are generally more of an 'on the side' thing) where you can learn math, english and other essential academic skills. religion is not an essential academic skill.
but I may take a line from littlebecc here. *backs away slowly*
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
To this, along with your other comment about non-academic learning being for outside of school, I'd just like to re-iterate that schooling isn't just about learning science or English - it's about learning for life, something which religion (for some anyway, I do profess a fear for hardcore fundamentalist religious schools) often provides for. I can vouchsafe for this personally - the religion classes at Melbourne Grammar made a massive difference to my life (and not in the sense that I became religious, because I'm not).
To your points about overgeneralising being bad, I agree - nevertheless, you're restricting all of your arguments to a small sample space. Although you may know a lot of people who want to do well, and although your friend's schoolmates might be laidback and apathetic, from a logical perspective there's no reason why there wouldn't be a larger percentage of "motivated" kids at private schools. Again though, overgeneralising is bad, and I'm not saying you won't get these kinds of kids at public schools too (look at some of the people on VN, for instance...), but the atmosphere in private schools will often just foster that kind of attitude more easily.
I think Russ and Appianway have put forward the best views here. In the grander scheme of things, it's not like private schools are "lolzt3hawesomz" in comparison to everything else by a long shot; nevertheless, it's undeniable that they're at an advantage, and it does come down to whether or not the cost is worth it for attending.
On one last note, Appianway does also bring up a good point - although it's arguable that it's necessarily a good thing, private schools tend to attract a lot more internationally/socially focused individuals, and in an environment where people are casually applying for Ivy Leagues/Oxbridge, you're bound to set your sights a bit higher...
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errm who said cars werent about speeding??
The Victorian road toll, that will only increase with people like you on the road.
btw, great to see that you registered an account just to make this comment.
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To be honest I don't see the value of private schools
What about religious schools? They can't be public by law.
I don't really see the point of religious schools either. schooling isn't about religion, it's about learning. there's a wide range of outlets for religion, the outlets for schooling are probably considerably more narrow.
Well if you don't see the point of them, don't go to one (which I assume you don't). I don't see the point for Ferraris, they're unnecessarily fast, cars aren't about speeding, cars are for driving.
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I appreciate your opinion but who says students don't learn at religious schools? Would you know? Have you been to one?
can't be bothered editing the quotes down, sorry. but akira my point was that religion and education can easily be kept seperate. it's like my earlier point about music not having to be offered through schools. generally, schools are the only place (other than tutors which are generally more of an 'on the side' thing) where you can learn math, english and other essential academic skills. religion is not an essential academic skill.
but I may take a line from littlebecc here. *backs away slowly*
I understand where you're coming from, but then again, is doing an art subject an essential academic skill under your rules? How about sport? Religion is a choice, doing sport is a choice, all up to each individual. But since you're backing away I'll leave you alone :)
@chubs.peterson:
Lol I used speeding because I couldn't think of anything else, fail on my behalf.
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I really can't agree with you on the "it's about learning for life"
perhaps in the early years, but the only subject that I can think will have a remote bearing on my future would be english. perhaps this point of view belongs in another topic but VCE to me just seems like a year to get xx.xx ATAR so that you can study something that will actually teach you learning for life. I do psychology but that has absolutely no bearing on what I want to do, nor would I really say i've learnt anything outside of english this year- that's only my personal experience through all my rote-learning subjects though.
I can't really disagree with you on the rest of what you said though so I must concede defeat.
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I don't think the issue is whether you can do well in a public school or if you can do poorly in a private school. Obviously if you study hard you should achieve well regardless of whether you went to government or private school. The issue is there is a clear absence of equality between private schools and government schools, and a ridiculously large disparity between the elite private schools and the under-funded government schools.
Statistically, I would guess that simply 'attending' a private school over a state school will, on average, boost your TER score. The list of highest performing schools is constantly dominated by private schools while government schools are sorely under represented. I'd hazard that at least some of this disparity is because of the additional resources available to private schools over public schools.
Factors contributing to success in VCE include more than just textbooks and teachers. It's the entire atmosphere of the school you attend. I was lucky to go to a relatively decent public school but even then I had to put up with a classroom which was once a toilet block and which still had piping coming out of its walls. These things didn't directly impact on my ability to study and learn but they definitely de-motivated me and made me feel like my education was valued less than those who paid thousands of dollars to go to a private school.
If people are arguing that everyone has the potential to do well then why don't we reflect that by reducing the gap between private and public schools? It's easy to say that if you work hard you can do well even if you go to an under represented school but how many of you actually believe you would do just as well in VCE if you attended a seriously under funded school? I know I probably would not have even come close to doing as well as I did if I had gone to a school worse of than mine. I was lucky to at least be able to do the subjects I wanted to do, have class sizes at a reasonable 20-25 and have teachers who were, for the most part, motivated and qualified. I know other schools, however, aren't so lucky. Personally, an educational gap this big just flies in the face of equality in education.
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I really can't agree with you on the "it's about learning for life"
perhaps in the early years, but the only subject that I can think will have a remote bearing on my future would be english. perhaps this point of view belongs in another topic but VCE to me just seems like a year to get xx.xx ATAR so that you can study something that will actually teach you learning for life. I do psychology but that has absolutely no bearing on what I want to do, nor would I really say i've learnt anything outside of english this year- that's only my personal experience through all my rote-learning subjects though.
I can't really disagree with you on the rest of what you said though so I must concede defeat.
If anything, it's only after VCE that "learning for life" doesn't really happen. Vocational learning=/=life learning - in a comfy, secure environment like school, it's easier to teach you life lessons and to make you a more well rounded human being. It's worth point out that the word education comes from educere in Latin, meaning "to bring forth what is within"; from my point of view, at least, school should focus on moulding the soul over "practical skills", rather than vice versa. But yes, this is another topic altogether.
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I appreciate your opinion but who says students don't learn at religious schools? Would you know? Have you been to one?
I for one go to a catholic school and I must say, no offence, that RE is the one class I do not look forward to every single day when I check my timetable and find it distinctively highlighted in yellow for obvious reasons. Yes, you may learn some helpful morals and values etc. but is there really any need for the tedious background information on how to read the bible or who St. blablabla was? However, I do think that the morals and all that are important but it could be taught under a different subject name like pastoral or Group learning or something, not under RE. The facts and content of actual RE could instead be an elective from yr 7, and the reflective stuff compulsory but under a different name and also involving more games and fun things :)
Anyways, that's just my opinion, don't wanna cause any arguments here XD
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In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.
Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.
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In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.
Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.
It's funny you would phrase it that way, because in all honesty the stuff that you're condemning is the stuff which I think will be the highlight of my schooling life, and I'm fairly certain that if it weren't for what my school offered me for six years, I wouldn't feel as complete as a person. Others probably have a different outlook indeed.
Agree to disagree? :p
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Oh co-curricular activities. The major highlight of a private school is the fact that you get so much more than an education. You get access to things that just aren't available at the majority of public schools, you have the opportunity to build connections that will help you after you graduate.
Just one example is the fact that the chief assessor of VCE English gives a written reference to each student who graduates from his (private) school.
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Oh co-curricular activities. The major highlight of a private school is the fact that you get so much more than an education. You get access to things that just aren't available at the majority of public schools, you have the opportunity to build connections that will help you after you graduate.
This x10000
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Oh co-curricular activities. The major highlight of a private school is the fact that you get so much more than an education. You get access to things that just aren't available at the majority of public schools, you have the opportunity to build connections that will help you after you graduate.
say you did some of these things on your own- such as community service or sport. I think it would be a lot more impressive to employers or anyone else if people took the initiative to do such activities on their own rather than just "oh, your school forced you to do these things? marvelous!" seems like yet another way that kids at private schools are "spoon fed"
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I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.
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because her friend's mother worked there
not much to do with the school?
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Oh co-curricular activities. The major highlight of a private school is the fact that you get so much more than an education. You get access to things that just aren't available at the majority of public schools, you have the opportunity to build connections that will help you after you graduate.
say you did some of these things on your own- such as community service or sport. I think it would be a lot more impressive to employers or anyone else if people took the initiative to do such activities on their own rather than just "oh, your school forced you to do these things? marvelous!" seems like yet another way that kids at private schools are "spoon fed"
what the hell is up with this "spoon feeding" thing, seriously. Are you saying it's better to go to a school that has less opportunities or support for anything?
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what the hell is up with this "spoon feeding" thing, seriously. Are you saying it's better to go to a school that has less opportunities or support for anything?
no probably not. but to relate this to the argument, going to a private school doesn't guarantee you more opportunities or more support. private schools can just as easily have bad teachers like a public school can, and less opportunities? how? because we're not forced into taking co-curricular subjects? they're still offered
and before everyone starts in on a "oh your backtracking your argument automatically sucks" i'd just like you all to know that no i'm not backtracking- this is schools in general, not public vs. private.
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because her friend's mother worked there
not much to do with the school?
Missing the point - again, with no elitism intended, private schools (due to costs) tend to attract a lot of "upper class" families, so a lot more medical practitioners, rich business people, even celebrities and so on. For better or for worse, knowing the sons and daughters of CEOs and politicians is going to get you places.
As for being able to do things like community service and such outside of school - sure, why not? But again, employers aren't going to think "spoonfed" when you say you were part of a community service initiative established within your highschool. Also consider the impact of "environment" - call it osmosis if you will, but having these sorts of things around you encourage you to get become a part of it, and to get motivated, and so on.
no probably not. but to relate this to the argument, going to a private school doesn't guarantee you more opportunities or more support. private schools can just as easily have bad teachers like a public school can, and less opportunities? how? because we're not forced into taking co-curricular subjects? they're still offered
and before everyone starts in on a "oh your backtracking your argument automatically sucks" i'd just like you all to know that no i'm not backtracking- this is schools in general, not public vs. private.
Yes, private schools can have bad teachers too. Yes, public schools often offer the same sort of co-curricular activities which private schools will provide for. The difference is, unfortunately, money - private schools (due to funding and parent/alumni networking) have more connections, more funding to put into making these co-curricular activities flourish, etc. To quote a friend at a middle range public school, her teachers are often half-assed, and people like the debating coordinator don't really try or even know what they're doing. When you're in the "elite" environment which private schools try to foster (also provided for with mass funding), you're going to get better quality within these things, and more people trying to do them.
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because her friend's mother worked there
not much to do with the school?
Missing the point - again, with no elitism intended, private schools (due to costs) tend to attract a lot of "upper class" families, so a lot more medical practitioners, rich business people, even celebrities and so on. For better or for worse, knowing the sons and daughters of CEOs and politicians is going to get you places.
As for being able to do things like community service and such outside of school - sure, why not? But again, employers aren't going to think "spoonfed" when you say you were part of a community service initiative established within your highschool. Also consider the impact of "environment" - call it osmosis if you will, but having these sorts of things around you encourage you to get become a part of it, and to get motivated, and so on.
Agreed. In average public schools you just don't get a feel for how far you can go, which affects the middle range students a lot imo.
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Also consider the impact of "environment" - call it osmosis if you will, but having these sorts of things around you encourage you to get become a part of it, and to get motivated, and so on.
might just be me, but I find environment to be utterly useless motivation, and a poor excuse not to be motivated. probably shouldn't mention this for the sake of public schools not sounding woeful but that AC at my school is broken, so my history class is always refridgerated, but that makes no difference to my learning. It's the subject matter that counts.
public school's are the bare-bones of schooling - they give you what you need
Agreed. In average public schools you just don't get a feel for how far you can go, which affects the middle range students a lot imo.
I disagree. most people have some goal in life, and that should dictate how far they feel they can go, not having to be told by a school. also that's quite a defeatist attitude, it's not like you're disadvantaged going to a public school in some subjects (there are others where there are definite benefits of a private school) and you're automatically not going to aim high
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Also consider the impact of "environment" - call it osmosis if you will, but having these sorts of things around you encourage you to get become a part of it, and to get motivated, and so on.
might just be me, but I find environment to be utterly useless motivation, and a poor excuse not to be motivated. probably shouldn't mention this for the sake of public schools not sounding woeful but that AC at my school is broken, so my history class is always refridgerated, but that makes no difference to my learning. It's the subject matter that counts.
public school's are the bare-bones of schooling - they give you what you need
Agreed. In average public schools you just don't get a feel for how far you can go, which affects the middle range students a lot imo.
I disagree. most people have some goal in life, and that should dictate how far they feel they can go, not having to be told by a school. also that's quite a defeatist attitude, it's not like you're disadvantaged going to a public school in some subjects (there are others where there are definite benefits of a private school) and you're automatically not going to aim high
I think you're a) Thinking too much about how you're affected by your school, b) Not thinking hard enough about how the populace at large is going to relate to their schooling life and c) Thinking too one-dimensionally. Humans are complex creatures, and every little thing counts.
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I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.
But I got a work placement with the royal melb hospital surgical team. AND I go to a normal all girls catholic school and when I went everyone assumed that I knew someone who worked there, but I didn't. In contrast, my sister who goes to macrob, which you would assume would make her quite exposed to lots of benefits, got rejected...Oh wait, they called her back 2 months later begging her to come work with the head neurosurgeon. :(
But the point is that you don't need to go to an "elite private school" for these opportunities. You need to seek out for them by yourself or I guess, an over-exaggerated resume will do. :D
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I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.
But I got a work placement with the royal melb hospital surgical team. AND I go to a normal all girls catholic school and when I went everyone assumed that I knew someone who worked there, but I didn't. In contrast, my sister who goes to macrob, which you would assume would make her quite exposed to lots of benefits, got rejected...Oh wait, they called her back 2 months later begging her to come work with the head neurosurgeon. :(
But the point is that you don't need to go to an "elite private school" for these opportunities. You need to seek out for them by yourself or I guess, an over-exaggerated resume will do. :D
Nobody's saying that "elite private schools" are a necessity for these opportunities - they just make them a hell of a lot easier.
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I'm not talking about playing football every weekend or helping out at a nursing home. A friend got a work placement with a surgery team (don't know the details) because her friend's mother worked there. They're both at an elite private girls school. That's the sort of advantage I refer to. It's not fair or equitable, but you can't deny it exists.
But the point is that you don't need to go to an "elite private school" for these opportunities. You need to seek out for them by yourself or I guess, an over-exaggerated resume will do. :D
Of course there are opportunities to be successful for both private and public school students. The issue is that it is generally much harder for public school students to have the same opportunities as private school students. At the least, public school students have to work a lot harder to build the network of connections that a private school student will have. If you do attend a public school, particularly a substantially under funded one, and have managed to secure an attractive work placement, you are probably the exception rather than the rule.
Some very crude hypothetical situations to illustrate:
A loves music and plays the piano. He/she dreams to be a successful musician. He/she goes to an under funded school which does not have a music course and accordingly cannot support students who have an interest in music. None of A's friends in school have much interest in music, either because they have not been able to afford to pursue a hobby in music or for other personal reasons.
B goes to a private school where there is a strong focus on extra curricular activities. This involves a large music program involving orchestras, regular performances and strong support for student musicians. Many students in the school have an interest in music and the school has a reputation for producing successful musicians who go on to have a career in music.
Of course A could work very hard to try and pursue his/her music career. He may even be a break-through success and become a world famous pianist. The point is, however, that the cards are stacked against him/her and A must work doubly hard to have access to the same opportunities that B has.
Another example would be two students who want to do law. One student attends a private school where many students have lawyers and solicitors as parents. Consequently, this student can easily build connections in the legal industry and when it comes to seeking placements, he/she will be in a strong position to get the lucrative positions. Another student who attends a public school may have no friends with lawyers as parents. As a result he/she must work much harder to build the same connections that the other student had simply by being in a different school environment.
This is largely the 'point' of going to an elite private school. They have an environment where almost everyone is going to come from a successful family. As a result it is much easier to make friends with the right people. Public schools by nature simply cannot offer the same opportunities which raises issues of equality and fairness.
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In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.
Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.
It's funny you would phrase it that way, because in all honesty the stuff that you're condemning is the stuff which I think will be the highlight of my schooling life, and I'm fairly certain that if it weren't for what my school offered me for six years, I wouldn't feel as complete as a person. Others probably have a different outlook indeed.
Agree to disagree? :p
Gladly :D As I said, I do understand the appeal. I just don't think it's for me, I'm a bit too Daria-ish, as it were.
This is largely the 'point' of going to an elite private school. They have an environment where almost everyone is going to come from a successful family. As a result it is much easier to make friends with the right people. Public schools by nature simply cannot offer the same opportunities which raises issues of equality and fairness.
That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.
Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.
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Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.
This argument could be extended infinitely...You could say that a student at an incredibly under resourced school has the exact same opportunities as a student in an elite private school because they could technically do everything they wanted outside school, but really...
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In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.
Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.
It's funny you would phrase it that way, because in all honesty the stuff that you're condemning is the stuff which I think will be the highlight of my schooling life, and I'm fairly certain that if it weren't for what my school offered me for six years, I wouldn't feel as complete as a person. Others probably have a different outlook indeed.
Agree to disagree? :p
Gladly :D As I said, I do understand the appeal. I just don't think it's for me, I'm a bit too Daria-ish, as it were.
This is largely the 'point' of going to an elite private school. They have an environment where almost everyone is going to come from a successful family. As a result it is much easier to make friends with the right people. Public schools by nature simply cannot offer the same opportunities which raises issues of equality and fairness.
That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.
Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.
To draw a personal example, there are schools which allow students to play concertos as soloists with the school orchestra - this simply isn't possible for most people in "outside of school" bands or concerts. etc. etc.
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That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.
I agree with university being a great way to build connections. Unfortunately that is, of course, contingent on getting into university in the first place, but that's a whole new issue in itself.
I wasn't trying to suggest that going to a private school is a free ticket into a high paying job. It just makes it that much easier to get into contact with the people who will most likely be occupying those high paying jobs in the future. I would say being in an environment where most students come from financially successful families makes it much easier to get your foot in the door when it comes to employment. Yes you still need a good work ethic and desirable character traits to be employed, but already having those connections with the right people is such a huge advantage over someone else who may not have the same list of references because of their educational environment.
Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.
I made that example up on the spot so my mistake. Although I still think there's a difference between a school which offers a basic music program because it has to and another school that has huge concerts to the public, or opportunities to play in front of VIPs (IIRC, MacRob got to play for the Queen or something? Obviously this is a tremendous opportunity for someone serious in music and one that probably isn't going to be available to the average school).
Yes, student A could have taken music lessons and done stuff out of school etc. I factored that in when I said:
Of course A could work very hard to try and pursue his/her music career. He may even be a break-through success and become a world famous pianist. The point is, however, that the cards are stacked against him/her and A must work doubly hard to have access to the same opportunities that B has.
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The point I was trying to make is that, while the opportunity exists for A to be successful, he/she has to work much harder to just close the gap between him/her and student B. In many cases, people like Student A will never get the break they need to be successful, even if they were equally as passionate as Student B, simply because they weren't in the right place at the right time.
I guess to summarise what I was trying to say: I recognise everyone has the potential to achieve well in life. I just think that many students in elite schools receive much more support and opportunities that make it easier to succeed than someone in an under funded school. Of course some of these opportunities will simply be the result of socio-economic status, but surely closing the gap between the elite schools and the poorest schools is one way to make the system more equitable?
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If you want a simple example, consider some of the VCE subjects like Renaissance History. When you look at the paper at the end of the year, the high achieving students are going to be overwhelmingly from private schools (go check 2009 if you don't believe me). There are multiple reasons for this, but it all comes down to the fact that private schools have wider resources. They can go on tours to Italy, they have access to books that are ridiculously expensive, they have connections to examiners and to historians.
You don't have to go to a private school to do well. Some people would say that a public school offers different benefits, which aren't available at a private school. But you can't refuse to acknowledge that private schools, for better or worse, do have more opportunities.
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Additionally, with your music example, why couldn't student A just have private music lessons and perform in bands or in concerts outside of school? Also, I don't think any school can get away with not having any music programme at all because it's part of the curriculum until year 10. You can get opportunities in places other than school.
Because it's ridiculously expensive... try hiring an entire orchestra... =\
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90 percent of my friends ( I go to a private school ) work damn hard to tak advantage of the opportunities presented in front of them, They appreciate them and have ethe utmost respect to everyone they surround themselves by. I'm dissapointed that this notion of spoon feeding generalizes private school students as being ungrateful and incapable of understanding the privelged situation they were born into.
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Well said, Jdog. I dislike this generalisation (made mostly by people who've never actually attended one) that private school students are spoon-fed and therefore can't handle university altogether. I'm sick of having my VCE achievements degraded because of this misconception. How would you like it if we said things like "public school students suck at uni because they're all stupid and only got in because of SEAS and underrepresented schools"?
I also don't understand how people can claim that we were "spoon-fed" and then in the same breath claim that private schools don't offer anything extra in comparison to public schools?
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I don't think we should be focusing on the very high end of students who would of done very well regardless of what school they went to (like some people on here). Nor should we focus on the bottom that do absolutely no work or just don't give a stuff.
For the mid-range students (which comprise most students i guess) the additional resources of private schools would be a boon. I'm betting most would show at least a little improvement.
I like the idea of extra-curricular activities and i think you should educate the entire person, for life too. Not just mindlessly spoon-feeding them so they can pass the exam. Sadly this is where a lot of non wealthy private schools suffer, i know a lot of excellent actors and musicians but my school doesn't really have a well developed program like that for them to flourish so i can definitely see a huge advantage there too.
The disparity just shouldn't be there though. I firmly believe Australia is one of the best countries in the world but man we really need to lift our socks up when it comes to education. Every student should be able to have opportunities like those listed above and i believe it is a pretty decent investment. But hey its the real world what are you going to do
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THIS THREAD IS ALMOST AS OLD AS THIS WHOLE DAMN SITE.
WHY WON'T IT DIE?!?!?
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Killlll it ... with fire!
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That's an interesting argument. I think though that there are lots of different ways to build connections, for instance I've built quite a lot at university. I agree that who you know can be very important, even if it is unfair. But I guess, private school or not, to build good connections, you do actually have to impress them on the way, you can't just sit on 'you should hire me because I went to the same school as you' unless your potential employer is an idiot.
I agree with university being a great way to build connections. Unfortunately that is, of course, contingent on getting into university in the first place, but that's a whole new issue in itself.
I wasn't trying to suggest that going to a private school is a free ticket into a high paying job. It just makes it that much easier to get into contact with the people who will most likely be occupying those high paying jobs in the future. I would say being in an environment where most students come from financially successful families makes it much easier to get your foot in the door when it comes to employment. Yes you still need a good work ethic and desirable character traits to be employed, but already having those connections with the right people is such a huge advantage over someone else who may not have the same list of references because of their educational environment.
I know what you mean there, when Im with my private school friend he would go... oh my friend owns that store, my friend's family owns that company etc etc. So he gets quite alot of discount airfares, food clothing just because of the connections he has at his school.
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can't put a price on a well rounded education :)
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can't put a price on a well rounded education :)
These schools clearly do. That's the entire point of this thread. /facepalm
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Mine are $0 and I feel I've had more opportunities (VCE over 3 years, how I want it - no real subject restrictons) at my public school.
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can't put a price on a well rounded education :)
These schools clearly do. That's the entire point of this thread. /facepalm
His point was that a well rounded education is worth any amount of money -'can't put a price on it.' Please refrain from smartass 'facepalms' until you are able to comprehend the English language and it's sayings.
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Please refrain from smartass 'facepalms' until you are able to comprehend the English language and it's sayings.
Heh-hem.
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Please refrain from smartass 'facepalms' until you are able to comprehend the English language and it's sayings.
Heh-hem.
Hahaha. And the irony is doubled because I went to a private school.
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In regard to the non-academic aspects of private school, that makes a lot of sense. I never actually realised that people would pay extra money for crazy amounts of house events, religious education, sport at inconvenient times of the day, and the opportunity to spend even more money on frivolous events. My cynicism aside, I can see why you might want to choose that sort of thing. Aside from being quite holistic, and I'm sure, at times, even enjoyable, it seems like it has a nice aesthetic as well, as though you're on the set of Dead Poet's Society, or something.
Personally, the thought of early-morning rowing sessions, school chapel, showing unrelenting enthusiasm and pride in an abstract institution, as well as 'survival' camps doesn't appeal to me in the slightest, and I believe these things are quite unrelated in the formation of an identity. However, I totally respect that others probable have a different outlook than me.
If you're still planning on doing postgrad at Oxford, choose your college carefully if you don't want to feel like you've ended up among the pages of Brideshead Revisited
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lol. I'll remember that :)
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are you set on going there next year?
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It's all about selective education.
If not, the good public schools like Balwyn, Glen Waverley, Brentwood etc. No way I'm sending my kid to a private school even if I have the $$$. It's simply not worth it :X
The problem with private schools is that I find too many parents think it is a quick fix to make their son or daughter a good person. I see too many parents under the impression that their kids are fine, yet in reality they take drugs, smoke, sleep around and whatnot. Is that a private school thing? No, it happens anywhere, so spending another 20000 won't better your chances THAT much. A good education generally begins at parenting. If you raise a non-selfish, studious, friendly kid, it is far less likely that they will fall prey to the wrong hands and go wrong.
I think reasons for sending kids to private schools may include scholarship acceptance, religion, sporting/music facilities, or any other facility at the school which will DIRECTLY enable your child to succeed in whatever they are interested in. Nevertheless, the number one reason that most parents send their kids to private schools is so that they can feel as if they have contributed to something positive for their child.
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As a student of a private school, which fees peak at about $21,000, it seems some of you have a slight misunderstanding at why students actually attend such schools. (not trying to be nasty here or anything) Yes, we do have a reasonably high quality of teaching staff and nice facilities such as a pool etc, but particularly at my school, it's the sense of community that parents want to provide for their children. The teachers can almost seem like family at times and our house events and numerous fund raising activities are aimed at instilling a feeling of that community and respect.
So, haha please don't just write off private schools as a waste of money. Sure, you may have had a wonderful time at your local/selective school or you may not have either. Trust me we have plenty of scandals but yeah, private schools can be good too. :)
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definitely worth it
i moved from a pvt to public school, and its freakin ridiculous.
My old school was amazing, only i didnt realize it. Public schools (in general) suck balls
Changing schools has definitely proved detrimental to my results
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So, haha please don't just write off private schools as a waste of money. Sure, you may have had a wonderful time at your local/selective school or you may not have either. Trust me we have plenty of scandals but yeah, private schools can be good too. :)
I agree with that - the thing about "scandals" - most of it never makes it onto the news.
Private schools tend to be overly-protective of bad publicity appearing on the news - i.e. Xavier College is seen as very good school, yet at the same time - with all the "muck-up celebrations" news in recent years and the incident in New Zealand, its' reputation has been somewhat dented.
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I may have posted on this thread last year (can't tell because it's soooo long). Anyway I can safely say that I went to probably one of the best public schools in Victoria and ended up doing alright and we had a few people do exceptionally well.
The generalization that once students get into uni, the public school students dominate over private school kids really isn't true. I have a friend who went to trinity that got 50's in methods, specialist Maths, physics, chemistry, etc and he still does exceptionally well in his studies, having said that, once of my friends went to a public school and the only 40 she got was in psychology and now she is probably one of the best second year pure Maths students I know! She's done 2 third year pure Maths subjects and aced them and got offered a vacation scholarship in topology with one of the best pure Maths professors (Craig Hodgson).
In the end there is disparity but if you get the ENTER/ATAR/etc needed to do what you want and your passionate about it, then you should be able to well. University is a great part of your life since your experience is what you make of it. You go from school where rote learning gets you through and then in uni you actually learn and understand the motivation behind what your studying and each year becomes more interesting than the last. I personally am addicted to the experience and definately want to do masters. Trust me you don't really learn something until university.
When I'm a parent, I would probably opt for a good private school if I can afford it or the selective schools or the great public schools.
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friend that got 50's in methods, specialist Maths, physics, chemistry, etc
A.B? J.M? S.S?
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Andrew Bennett.
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are you set on going there next year?
Next year is my honours year. So no. After that I plan on applying for some universities (including Oxford) - and not just applying for MAs and PhDs, but also probably JDs. Additionally, I also will apply for graduate jobs and such (with the possibility of studying part-time as well, if that would work)... I'm not really sure what I want to do, so I'll try to give myself many different options. Which means sitting both the LSAT and the GRE as well as filling out many applications (sigh). But we digress!
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Andrew Bennett.
Knew it, the other two were afterthoughts. He's a great guy.
Ironically enough, I don't think he got dux of our year :(
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are you set on going there next year?
Next year is my honours year. So no. After that I plan on applying for some universities (including Oxford) - and not just applying for MAs and PhDs, but also probably JDs. Additionally, I also will apply for graduate jobs and such (with the possibility of studying part-time as well, if that would work)... I'm not really sure what I want to do, so I'll try to give myself many different options. Which means sitting both the LSAT and the GRE as well as filling out many applications (sigh). But we digress!
At Oxford, they're known as M.phil and D.phil respectively. Just in case you're confused later on :)
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How much different is the atmosphere of private schools when compared to decent government schools (not the ones where half the cohort drop out in yr 10)? I've only ever attended government schools and is there much difference?
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Yes its completely different. I went to Haileybury.
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^ Did you also go to a public school where you could actually compare the atmosphere?
I imagine that different schools are... well, different. It would probably be unfair to say 'all private schools have X atmosphere' and 'all public schools have Y atmosphere'. And then Catholic schools would probably be different again - there are some really good ones and some really middling ones.
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I've attended both. I suppose the main difference was that the private school tried hard to engage students who weren't immediately interested, the state school less so.
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Yes Eriny, I do.
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combob thats exactly right
i moved from an exceptionally good (yet underrated) semi-private school that was as strict as any private school, and the teachers there pushed us so hard to achieve greatness. The amount of weekend classes we had even in year 11 was crazy
then i moved to a public school and it was shocking
total self-dependency
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then i moved to a public school and it was shocking
total self-dependency
I have only been to government schools (including one in the Western suburbs -if that matters ;) ), and I have never found it to be that bad. Personally, self-dependency suits the way I like to learn a lot of things, so I actually enjoyed schooling in these 'shocking' schools.
But maybe as a comparison, the may seem bad. Depends on your learning style I suppose...
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I wish i went to a private school..
I would think that the atmosphere would be different between private and public schools, because public schools generally have more of the not so caring students, and private usualy have the students who want to achieve high results.
And yes public schools are self dependent to certain extent
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I wish i went to a private school..
I would think that the atmosphere would be different between private and public schools, because public schools generally have more of the not so caring students, and private usualy have the students who want to achieve high results.
And yes public schools are self dependent to certain extent
I wouldn't say all students going to private schools "want to achieve high results". I do attend a private school and can say that there are some "duds" as I would put it, that attend my school. Some just go to private schools, because they can. Most (about 90%) do care about their studies, though there are some (a minority) who just muck around and never do any work. In any case, you'll have those sort of students at any school.
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I went to a public primary school but go to a private high school. So it is a bit difficult to comment on how the to are different but from some of my friends that go to public school and some teachers I know that teach at those schools I think in private schools the teachers seem to go beyond what is required of them well at least more of them than at public schools. This year I did Design and Technology and the two teachers stayed back 3-4 nights a week till after 6 to help student to finish their folio. I think that you get that a lot more with private schools and also when you're surrounded by people who want to do well and go to a good uni it helps you as well.
But thats just my opinion.
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then i moved to a public school and it was shocking
total self-dependency
I have only been to government schools (including one in the Western suburbs -if that matters ;) ), and I have never found it to be that bad. Personally, self-dependency suits the way I like to learn a lot of things, so I actually enjoyed schooling in these 'shocking' schools.
But maybe as a comparison, the may seem bad. Depends on your learning style I suppose...
Look you have nothing to compare it to, so its difficult to understand the difference. I went to a private primary school and private school for yr 7,8 before MHS. So even then I can't properly compare because MHS isn't a good model of public schools.
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combob thats exactly right
i moved from an exceptionally good (yet underrated) semi-private school that was as strict as any private school, and the teachers there pushed us so hard to achieve greatness. The amount of weekend classes we had even in year 11 was crazy
then i moved to a public school and it was shocking
total self-dependency
Also, at my public school there was a huge discrepancy between the teaching standards of the best and worst teachers, moreso than at private school, where some teachers were despised but none were incompetent.
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Also, at my public school there was a huge discrepancy between the teaching standards of the best and worst teachers, moreso than at private school, where some teachers were despised but none were incompetent.
Never been private, but I can vouch for the bold statement. Happens less in primary school (not much teaching goes on there), but in both my secondary schools (UHS and MHS) there are big differences in teaching standards, especially in the core subjects (core to me anyway): maths, science and english.
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combob thats exactly right
i moved from an exceptionally good (yet underrated) semi-private school that was as strict as any private school, and the teachers there pushed us so hard to achieve greatness. The amount of weekend classes we had even in year 11 was crazy
then i moved to a public school and it was shocking
total self-dependency
Also, at my public school there was a huge discrepancy between the teaching standards of the best and worst teachers, moreso than at private school, where some teachers were despised but none were incompetent.
lol i have experienced the same thing
while some teachers at my old school were absolutely hated for being absolute bastards, they were great teachers... and after all that is their job!
At my public school however i dont think my history teacher even had a degree in history, it was appalling! :P
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At the public school i went to till year 10, my english teacher told the class that she had dyslexia and to give her a break. She spelled eagle wrong.....3 TIMES
Also, my maths teacher was socially unstable and would cry and leave the classroom because she couldn't handle the children.
NUFF SAID.
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At my public school the teachers are really good - in my opinion anyway! The majority of them put so much effort and dedication into their teaching. Admittedly, there are a few who have no clue how to teach, but other than that they are great.
:)
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At the public school i went to till year 10, my english teacher told the class that she had dyslexia and to give her a break. She spelled eagle wrong.....3 TIMES
Also, my maths teacher was socially unstable and would cry and leave the classroom because she couldn't handle the children.
NUFF SAID.
LOL :D
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At the public school i went to till year 10, my english teacher told the class that she had dyslexia and to give her a break. She spelled eagle wrong.....3 TIMES
Also, my maths teacher was socially unstable and would cry and leave the classroom because she couldn't handle the children.
NUFF SAID.
Woah.. wtf sort of school did you go to LOL.
I go to a public school.. It may not have a great rep.. but thats because some of the students are dumb kents. The teachers are great though.
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I go to a public school.. It may not have a great rep.. but thats because some of the students are dumb kents. The teachers are great though.
That's the exact same as my school. It has such a bad reputation...
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Woah.. wtf sort of school did you go to LOL
There were some good teachers. Like, my french and english teacher who were funnily enough the same person. But yeah, mostly dud teachers and i would receive a+'s in like every class for doing nothing. And that's why my parents decided for me to move schools, best decision of my life. Then i started getting C's and would be like 'WTF?'
I went to a school in the mornington peninsula area.
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Padua?
I still stand by my theory that a school doesn't define a students capabilities.
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I go to a private school and can say that some teachers at my school aren't even that good. Most are generally good and willing to help out, though some are just bad. I went to public primary school and it wasn't too bad there, then again, it is primary school.
I still stand by my theory that a school doesn't define a students capabilities.
Seconded. You get a broad range of students at any given school, no matter private or public.
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Nah not Padua. In Frankston if that makes it blatantly obvious?
Of course a school doesn't define a students capabilities. But i can only imagine if some of my friends at my old school also transferred to my new school, how much more they would succeed and accomplish both academically and socially. There's things i learned at my private school i would NEVER ever have learned at my public school, some things that cannot be taught.
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I think that for the top or the worst students it makes no difference. But for those middle kids, a push or helping hand means alot in VCE or year 10.
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^ +1