ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: costargh on September 13, 2008, 06:59:07 pm
-
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jdxd_EFDd4s
I watched the whole thing and was moved by the words of this sufferer. It really saddens me to know that people have to go through this and the law deems it illegal. I used to be a fence sitter on euthansia leaning towards freedom to choose death, but after watching this, I have no doubts.
-
Pretty moving stuff. I also share the pro choice viewpoint with regards to euthanasia, and cant think of any logical justification of why it should remain illegal.
-
I'd say euthanasia is a very good option, if it means the end of eternal suffering. I just can't imagine living through like that...
-
I've always maintained that we should have capital punishment for attempted suicides. Help them on their merry way ;)
(not serious)
-
I've always maintained that we should have capital punishment for attempted suicides. Help them on their merry way ;)
(not serious)
I agree, also flirting should be a capital offence :)
-
How terrible is it to think that someone would consider jumping off a building to end their life because they can not legally do it in a painfree and humane way.
-
Gosh, that video was really sad, what a horrible way to spend the last weeks of your life. It should be a human's right to a painless death. I don't see why people are against it, the whole society is being treated as if it were composed of children incapable of rational thought.
-
Gosh, that video was really sad, what a horrible way to spend the last weeks of your life. It should be a human's right to a painless death. I don't see why people are against it, the whole society is being treated as if it were composed of children incapable of rational thought.
I disagree. They should have the right to pursue it without government-enforced barriers though. If the barrier is price, however, then that is their problem (for being unable to afford it). Others who wish to contribute can, although I can hardly think of many individuals (outside of immediate family and friends) who would wish to fund medically-assisted suicide.
I know you probably didn't mean what I attacked, but it's an important distinction, otherwise it implies the public should subsidise euthanasia for anyone who wants it, but cannot afford it.
-
Lol... it would bring new meaning to "I can't afford to die"
-
A note that doctors would also have an ethical barrier to this, as they've sworn to 'do no harm'.
I personally am indifferent to this. Besides, couldn't a doctor simply prescribe a lot of morphine (intending it for palliative care), and have it used to intentionally overdose? I recall my great-aunt was given a lot of morphine shortly before she passed away from pancreatic cancer...
-
it wouldn't *have* to be done by doctors, there could someone commissioned to administer the substance
-
I'm for euthanasia, but I think there should be strict guidelines around it when it's done so as to avoid accusations of murder. I like the guidelines that the Netherlands have.
-
A note that doctors would also have an ethical barrier to this, as they've sworn to 'do no harm'.
I personally am indifferent to this. Besides, couldn't a doctor simply prescribe a lot of morphine (intending it for palliative care), and have it used to intentionally overdose? I recall my great-aunt was given a lot of morphine shortly before she passed away from pancreatic cancer...
the Hippocratic Oath prevents a doctor from harming a patient, but there is a point where the patient's health is degenerating to such a point that by not euthanising, the patient actually suffers more. In that sense, what is more harmful?
The big problem with euthanasia is the problem of slippery slope (or thin edge). How does one judge if the person is making a rational decision about ending his/her own life? How does a patient unable to make that rational choice be administered? Does a third party have any power in this decision?
and from that point on, the line becomes less and less distinct... The end of the slide may be as absurd as euthanising a midget in his/her youth because of the "emotional trauma" he/she may likely experience...
-
Euthanasia would probably involve contracts to protect the doctor/administrator from accusations of murder.
Of course you don't let someone else make a decision like that for you. Only you can make that choice.
As for irrationality, it is extremely patronising to suggest that individuals making their own decision should not be allowed to.
-
Stories like this are why I've been pro-euthanasia for as long as I can remember.
I think a system similar to the current organ donor system would work. You nominate yourself to be put on the register and let your family/friends know, so that they can make the decision to donate should you die and the hospital can double check with the register.
You also get a card saying "Organ Donor". I keep mine in my wallet so that it's relatively easy to find if something happens to me since I carry my wallet around everywhere.
-
Yeah, ninwa, if you set up the contracts properly beforehand, that would work well. They are your rights, so you can also choose who can help you use them in dire situations.
Off-topic:
I don't think I would ever register myself as an organ donor because I have heard stories where there are perverse incentives for carers to take less than optimal care of you (since you are only an active organ donor after you're dead).
-
should you die
lol I'm immortal
my bad :-[
coblin, that's a scary thought ... I hope I don't get almost killed young then. On the form it said "young organs from people under 25 are especially precious" or something.
OK now I'm scared
-
Yeh my English and R.E teacher was telling the class about her neice who was in a car accident in Canada and was in a coma and the doctors said look she'll never come out of the coma, so you should take her off life support and let us take her organs and give them to people who need them... the initial response was no but after persistence from the doctors and guilt tripping the mother agreed to let them do it ... and the mother of this daughter always wonders now whether they did enough to save her, or just wanted to take her organs to help others.
-
Euthanasia would probably involve contracts to protect the doctor/administrator from accusations of murder.
Of course you don't let someone else make a decision like that for you. Only you can make that choice.
As for irrationality, it is extremely patronising to suggest that individuals making their own decision should not be allowed to.
if you were the victim of a traumatising traffic accident and was reduced to a permanent vegetative state, would you rather be alive or dead? Personally, I would rather be dead than a burden like that to my family, but if there were no system in place which I can proxy someone I trust to make that decision for me, I'd be stuck in that state.
let's also assume that your fiancee for some reason revoked the engagement and dumped you. you feel absolutely depressed and want to kill yourself, and go down to the doctors to be euthanised. Should that be allowed? You obviously are a perfectly fine human being who is overreacting, and to ask a doctor to proceed is clearly against the Hippocratic Oath (there IS harm done).
-
I think euthanasia should be restricted to terminal illness / vegetative state / etc. cases. There's always a chance the person wanting to commit suicide can be rehabilitated, whereas in those cases the chances are almost nil (assuming that the doctor is competent)
-
Emotional, but their choice is theirs.
If a doctor chooses not to administer the dose, that's also his choice (it takes two in the transaction). Family, friends and doctors are there to help you make the right decision, but they can't make it for you.
I condone allowing a proxy, as long as it has been previously agreed on, and written out clearly on a contract. Otherwise, the law should not allow this.
-
Maybe they could have the choice to kill themselves, but beforehand have to go through a process galling enough to deter anyone not 100% serious about killing themselves
-
Mod, add poll to thread "Should Euthanasia be legalised?"
-
Mod, add poll to thread "Should Euthanasia be legalised?"
\
and make an option: "should it be regulated?"
-
i would if i knew how to ><
EDIT: yay I did it but spelt euthanasia wrong
Queen of EPIC fail
EDIT 2: nvm didn't realise I can change polls
-
ninwa
Goddess of EPIC fail
Global Moderator
Part of the VN furniture
you have been sainted now :P
go get your name changed to St. Ninwa
-
I wrote an essay on euthanasia in philosophy last year, and there are also opposing practical arguments to consider such as greedy relatives pressuring family members into consenting, in order for inheritance to come early. Similarly, some doctors may pressure patients when they themselves are pressured by hospital budget.
There are also theoretical arguments against euthanasia, such as the Roman Catholic Church's Doctrine of the Sanctity of Human Life, asserting it is wrong to take a human life, except in exceptional circumstances such as war.
Note: I'm not saying I agree with either argument, I'm just providing food for thought, since there don't seem to be many arguments against euthanasia here.
If anyone is interested, my main source was the text Euthanasia – is it a 'good' death? (1997), written by Barry Taylor, a reader in the philosophy department of Melbourne University. It is a very interesting read, setting out the arguments for and against.
-
haha, my knowledge on this topic comes from this very source (that book was an awesome read) and that very subject.
There are also theoretical arguments against euthanasia, such as the Roman Catholic Church's Doctrine of the Sanctity of Human Life, asserting it is wrong to take a human life, except in exceptional circumstances such as war.
I think you meant "theological", and they are quite easily dismissed =D
I found the part where euthanasia in its extreme can lead to eugenics to be particularly interesting :P
-
As for irrationality, it is extremely patronising to suggest that individuals making their own decision should not be allowed to.
I'm all for Euthanasia in the palliative care setting, however Coblin, I assure you, I am the first to admit that decisions and requests I made while unbelievably sick were completely irrational. Being unwell really does cloud your judgement (oh, plus Valium lol). For example:
1. I asked a nurse to kill me so my boyfriend didn't have to see me so sick.
2. When my boyfriend came in, I asked him to cut my legs off because they were hurting too much and were "useless now."
3. Asked to be discharged from hospital to go home and die
4. Asked to be discharged from hospital so I could go to school and catch up on work
5. Asked to be discharged from hospital so I could go to my friend's party
6. Told the doctor to remove the nasogastric tube because it hurt my nose
7. Then told the doctor to shove his stethoscope up his arse.
8. Asked my surgery to be performed with no anesthetic because I was sick of being asleep.
9. Told my boyfriend that I was breaking up with him.
Anyway. I am glad that none of the above occurred, and they didn't take my request of "please kill me" seriously!! Everything was in the moment, and the illness I had was effecting my thought process. That's just my experience though, lol.
So, there should be safe guards in place to ensure no one is accused of murder, and that it is what the patient truly wants. And it should only be available in palliative care IMO.
-
I think euthanasia should be restricted to terminal illness / vegetative state / etc. cases. There's always a chance the person wanting to commit suicide can be rehabilitated, whereas in those cases the chances are almost nil (assuming that the doctor is competent)
+1
-
The nurse doesn't have to comply with your request. It's their choice too, after all it is a mutually voluntary agreement. If you feel so enraged about it, get up, and change hospitals/venues to where they will kill you for you. When you're sick or mentally unclear, would you even be able to realise your bargaining power?
It would also require signing forms to protect the legal rights of the doctor/administrator of the dose (governments don't need to do this, it's in the self-interest of the doctor/administrator).
If you can't handle the responsibility of your rights, then have them locked up by your own accords (I don't know, sign a forward agreement with your doctor to have your requests denied). But don't deny others their own rights.
-
I wasn't going to deny others their rights. Where did I say I wanted to deny others their right to choose? Seriously, quote me.
I was just saying I didn't find it patronising when people said I was making irrational decisions whilst I was sick. The stuff I said back then was kind of humorous anyway.
And don't you dare say, "if you can't handle the responsibility of your own rights", I was so fucking sick I didn't know which way was up. I find that really offensive. It's not that I wasn't able to handle the responsibility of my rights, it was just, unfortunately, my illness took over all logical thought processes.
Basically, I was saying there should be safeguards in place to ensure it's what the patient really wants, and it's not just a split second thing when you're feeling quite crap or are having delusions due to your illness. I believe some doctors have proposed a "cool off" period, where you have 1 week to re-consider your choice. Also, as I said before, it should only be available in palliative care.
Ahhh bed time now. night
-
You should be the master of your choices. If you believe a 1 week cool-off period is good for yourself, you set that rule. If you don't believe you can enforce it while you're sick, then organise a forward contract as a proposed. You don't need to be offended by it. I am stating the facts. When you are sick to the extent that you don't have logical thought, you cannot handle the responsibilities of your rights, so prepare for that situation and have them waived. Simple.
If you are condoning a one-size-fits-all system, where it's only legally available in palliative care, or after a one-week cooldown period, then that is denying other people their rights. You might think you're not equipped to make sound decisions, but maybe others are.
-
What's stopping someone from drinking copious amounts of alcohol?
The point I'm trying to make is that it is futile to make suicide illegal. As for 'assisted' suicide, what is different from someone giving a patient a bottle of Nebutal (for which the supplier does not know / does not care for how it will be used) to a company providing a skyscraper to jump from or the vendor of rope that was used to make a noose?
The government ought to not make the supply of such substances illegal, but allow the decision for the substance to be used upon each individual without the intervention of either government or another person.
After all, I'm sure that anyone who really wanted to commit suicide would find another way to do it if certain methods were outlawed.
-
What's stopping someone from drinking copious amounts of alcohol?
Maybe alcopops taxes...
-
Methylated spirits?
-
As for 'assisted' suicide, what is different from someone giving a patient a bottle of Nebutal (for which the supplier does not know / does not care for how it will be used) to a company providing a skyscraper to jump from or the vendor of rope that was used to make a noose?
Playing Devil's advocate here - there's really only one use for euthanasia, while Nebutal or rope have myriad uses (no idea what Nebutal actually is but I'm assuming you can use it for things other than killing yourself)
Anyway, I can't see how all the problems raised so far (except for the theological ones lol) cannot be solved by a contract system similar to the organ donor one, or maybe similar to the will system
you have been sainted now :P
go get your name changed to St. Ninwa
Hahaha I changed it to reflect my ever-increasing levels of FAIL
I wonder what's higher than a goddess ... I think it's time for another upgrade ... I almost had a heart attack last night because I saw my reflection in my mirror and thought there was a murderer in my room
7. Then told the doctor to shove his stethoscope up his arse.
I know it's entirely inappropriate but that made me lol really hard
-
As for 'assisted' suicide, what is different from someone giving a patient a bottle of Nebutal (for which the supplier does not know / does not care for how it will be used) to a company providing a skyscraper to jump from or the vendor of rope that was used to make a noose?
Playing Devil's advocate here - there's really only one use for euthanasia, while Nebutal or rope have myriad uses (no idea what Nebutal actually is but I'm assuming you can use it for things other than killing yourself)
Anyway, I can't see how all the problems raised so far (except for the theological ones lol) cannot be solved by a contract system similar to the organ donor one, or maybe similar to the will system
you have been sainted now :P
go get your name changed to St. Ninwa
Hahaha I changed it to reflect my ever-increasing levels of FAIL
I wonder what's higher than a goddess ... I think it's time for another upgrade ... I almost had a heart attack last night because I saw my reflection in my mirror and thought there was a murderer in my room
7. Then told the doctor to shove his stethoscope up his arse.
I know it's entirely inappropriate but that made me lol really hard
My bad, it's spelt Nembutal.
It's used as a sedative, officially. However, it was also used as a euthanasia agent in the NT while it was legal there (and is associated with euthanasia these days).
In other words, I was comparing the use of a multi-use euthanasia agent (Nembutal) to other multi-use objects like buildings and rope.
-
legalise drugs. people can made responsible decisions on consumption of narcotics.
even if they are addicted and nothing thinking straight.
-
What's stopping someone from drinking copious amounts of alcohol?
OR
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3230774.stm
-
What's stopping someone from drinking copious amounts of alcohol?
OR
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3230774.stm
Off-topic: from that link:
Prosecutors are seeking a conviction of murder for "sexual satisfaction", as cannibalism is not technically illegal under German law.
WTF?!
Excal I still wouldn't have known what Nembutal is :P
My point still stands though, you can use Nembutal for other things whereas if someone supplies euthanasia it's kinda obvious what they would use it for.
-
Nembutal is also used for euthanasia.