ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: ninwa on September 14, 2010, 11:39:06 am
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http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/blogs/learning-curve/are-migrant-parents-pushing-their-kids-too-hard-at-school/20100912-156t8.html
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Advantage and cultural capital is being pooled in selective schools, breeding further advantage. This he says is skewing HSC results by creating extremes of advantage and disadvantage.
‘‘It artificially raises the bar and makes access to high grades much more difficult for students who are not in the elite schools,’’ he says.
‘‘When you split sectors and create a platform which is more elevated, the students are able to build their competitive position more strongly and someone has to pay for that. It is a zero sum game - some win, but others must lose.’’
Have migrant parents pushed the HSC achievement bar too high? Or does everyone else just need to work harder to catch up?
Related: http://www.theage.com.au/national/education/top-schools-secret-weapon-95-of-students-of-migrant-heritage-20100912-156zd.html
[Lol, higher achievements being somehow a bad thing? Only in Australia]
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Why is a higher standard of education bad? God forbid we become too smart.
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Just lol. Yup, only in Australia :P
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I remember having an argument with my teacher/principal about whether selective schools were a good thing. If I remember it correctly, the result of that discussion was it was part of the student's duty to bring up the marks of his/her peers.
Interesting ways people interpret 'equality'.
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Somewhat related - I read last week in The Australian that if you speak a language other than English at home, you're 25% more likely to go to university. It's interesting because I'd have thought that something like that would actually be disadvantageous given how much universities weigh good English skills, but obviously it isn't necessarily a disadvantage at all.
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^^I think speaking a non-English language at home doesn't necessarily make you worse at English - empirical evidence, but some of the best English students I know don't speak any of it outside of school.
Perhaps in such households, although the language isn't spoken as much, but the work ethic of the kids more than makes up for it?
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You might like to shift this topic to the English board under context. The themes raised here fit in really nicely with Alice Pung's 'Growing Up Asian In Australia'.
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Funnily enough, this coincidentally appeared on BoS with a more humorous title
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I remember having an argument with my teacher/principal about whether selective schools were a good thing. If I remember it correctly, the result of that discussion was it was part of the student's duty to bring up the marks of his/her peers.
Interesting ways people interpret 'equality'.
Mao, have I told you that I love you? Couldn't agree more mang..
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Funnily enough, this coincidentally appeared on BoS with a more humorous title
Which was?...
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^^I think speaking a non-English language at home doesn't necessarily make you worse at English - empirical evidence, but some of the best English students I know don't speak any of it outside of school.
Oh yes, I agree. I meant that it's obviously not a huge disadvantage in terms of developing English skills.
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Funnily enough, this coincidentally appeared on BoS with a more humorous title
Which was?...
Quote:Superior Asians taking over white Aussie schools unquote
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My school has a large asian population and i have noticed on average yeah the asian kids do better.
I think its down to work ethic and parents pushing them... my parents dont give a stuff at all... i wouldn't mind parents that pushed me even a little
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Lol, European mothers are scary too pal, instead of whacking you with a bamboo stick (stereotypical Azn punish stick); they usually beat the shit out of you with shoes, pots, serving spoons, belts and crazy slaps that burn your skin for 3-4+ hours after.
Thats why I try 'harder' in school.
P.S - Did i forget to mention lectures "Back in Turkey, I had no food.. " etc, it sounds cheesy but it works :P
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I dont get that from my euro parents
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I dont get that from my euro parents
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Then they're not European enough.
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Oh... they are kind of white washed
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I moved here when i was 2 and my parents are pretty chill :D
except my grandparents..I get 99%, they look dissapointed and tell me why i couldn't have gotten that 1%, fml.
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^ Reminds me of this
http://www.facebook.com/pages/9995-9995-WHERES-DEH-OTHER-005-AIYAAA/107335869310958?ref=ts
WHERE DA OFTHA 0.05!?
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^^I think speaking a non-English language at home doesn't necessarily make you worse at English - empirical evidence, but some of the best English students I know don't speak any of it outside of school.
Perhaps in such households, although the language isn't spoken as much, but the work ethic of the kids more than makes up for it?
Also due to the fact that they are exposed to more formal English and less of the casual English that the English speaking students may get exposed to at home. For example so many skip mates use "should of" instead of "should have" because they're more exposed to phonetic garbage whereas the others have to rely more on books and stuff and so a larger proportion of the English that they are exposed to is proper.
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^ Kamil, pro at math and types/comments what I think :D
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"He questions whether enough is done to offer equal opportunity to all."
Are you kidding me
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I know so many people with parents who are from Europe originally, and they are all so chilled about school, i don't really know of any european parents who are pushy o_o
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Well, my parent's aren't pushy.. but if I don't get a decent result for something... they rage. D=
P.S. Armenians... am I European?! MIDDLE EASTERN?... FUUUUUUUUUUUUU- I don't even know ):
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armenia is part of asia
http://www.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mapsofworld.com/images2008/printable-maps/world-continents-map.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.mapsofworld.com/print_image.php%3Fid%3Dhttp://www.mapsofworld.com/images2008/printable-maps/world-continents-map.jpg%26spid%3Dundefined&usg=__kdFH40bANRdK_OY5AFlfNNVEbX0=&h=549&w=800&sz=97&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=mudlQpj4jK7q8M:&tbnh=150&tbnw=219&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcontinents%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bworld%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26biw%3D1152%26bih%3D670%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C204&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=840&vpy=269&dur=360&hovh=186&hovw=271&tx=227&ty=110&ei=1lHVTKDPM4qGuQP2z72qBQ&oei=1lHVTKDPM4qGuQP2z72qBQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:11,s:0&biw=1152&bih=670
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Europe... ASIA?
Confusing ):
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Europe... ASIA?
Confusing ):
Eurasia!
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LOL. Eurasia.. That sounds cool.
(P.S I'm joking LOL)
So Eurasians = ASIAN INFLUENCE + EURO INFLUENCE = GG?
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in terms of conventional geography its in asia
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I was fighting about this with my cousin.. She says Europe/Middle East.. I say Eurasia .. .. but geography states its in Asia.
What the fawk am I?
I'm European
I'm Middle Eastern.
I'm Asian
WHICH ONE?!@#
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http://www.nationalgeographic.com/faq/geography.html
the way i learnt it there's 7 continents the way it is in that link
but apparently they teach it different in other places, so i guess its just the way you look at it. but according to me your asian. but not the kinda "stereotypical" asian. more the western asian and not the eastern asian... lol ah ok whatever
in the end your whatever you want to be... the end...
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Western Asian.. Eastern Asian... FML, this is so confusing.
If I ever said "Hey, I'm from Western Asia" etc .. Everyone would LOL (even me) because it sounds so LOL + I don't look Asian at all.
Thanks for your help.
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well western asia is not a continent but its the location within the continent... like you can say western europe or eastern europe... or north of australia and south of australia... its not that confusing...or you can just say im from armenia
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Ha, I know its not a continent :P I was trying to be stupid.. I think I passed :D (I always pass in being stupid).
Eh, I'm from Armenia.
I don't get pushed to study.. but I'm expected to study :P
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haha i couldn't tell
yeah i don't really get pushed... well my mum would always nag me but i just ignore... and then when i freak out because i have an exam the next day shes like see i told you you should have studied...lol
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Regarding this topic, I don't think migrant parents are pushing their children too hard but a lot of parents are being too soft. I liked the part where they talked about sports coaching compared to tutoring. The thing is that in Australia academia isn't emphasized as much as what you see in other countries.
By the way my grandfather was Hungarian and mum said that he was very strict and actually grounded her for the last 6 months of school. But she said it definitely worked since her results improved exceptionally.
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WHAT IS THIS!
i wuv my asian pushy wushy parents :'(
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WHAT IS THIS!
i wuv my asian pushy wushy parents :'(
Asian includes Indian, so in response I don't mind as they get me through my studies whenever I lose motivation.
Mine aren't too bad though, they let me go to the city and stuff with mates on weekends, etc. I know of one particular set of Asian (Japanese -I think) parents who have a bell attached to their daughter's door, so that whenever she goes out of her room, they know about it (she is 17 btw). That is going way, way WAY over the top!
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European parents are strict. The reasons you don't see European parents who are strict as often, is because you don't actually see European parents. Europeans emigrated to Australia in masses way way way before the Asians emigrated. So in effect, you are seeing people born and raised in Australia and calling them European parents. Trust me, if you see recent immigrants from Europe, they'll be just as strict as your Asian parents. Like my parents who emigrated when they were 32. Mine aren't so strict post year-7 ish for personal reasons which I won't disclose. However, I can tell you over in Europe, 5-6 hours of homework a night from about 5th grade is completely normal. The reason parents push is because they come from backgrounds where being top notch at school is the only ticket out of poverty. Of course, what compliments this, is the extremely harsh conditions the poor experience in some countries. But yeh, if you want to call European parents soft, judge EUROPEAN parents, not someone who was born and brought up in Australia.
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European parents are strict. The reasons you don't see European parents who are strict as often, is because you don't actually see European parents. Europeans emigrated to Australia in masses way way way before the Asians emigrated. So in effect, you are seeing people born and raised in Australia and calling them European parents. Trust me, if you see recent immigrants from Europe, they'll be just as strict as your Asian parents. Like my parents who emigrated when they were 32. Mine aren't so strict post year-7 ish for personal reasons which I won't disclose. However, I can tell you over in Europe, 5-6 hours of homework a night from about 5th grade is completely normal. The reason parents push is because they come from backgrounds where being top notch at school is the only ticket out of poverty. Of course, what compliments this, is the extremely harsh conditions the poor experience in some countries. But yeh, if you want to call European parents soft, judge EUROPEAN parents, not someone who was born and brought up in Australia.
Haha, thank you!
Exactly my thoughts :P
My grandparents are definitely the most scary/strict.
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin' and that's what the migrants are doing, incl. my parents I suppose, but they don't really push me to study, they just stand back a bit and expect me to ace everything, and if I don't, they think something's really wrong and I get a concerned, disappointed and slightly angry talking to.
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin'
So true.
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin' and that's what the migrants are doing, incl. my parents I suppose, but they don't really push me to study, they just stand back a bit and expect me to ace everything, and if I don't, they think something's really wrong and I get a concerned, disappointed and slightly angry talking to.
Can blame the government for that. All they do is push apprenticeships because they are shit jobs which no one really wants to do, so they offer several benefits for people to take them up.
And then there is no major incentive for people to work harder and earn more, because then you just get raped on tax.
To an extent, I like the 'Asian' mentality on work ethic. Obviously the locking of children in their room and forcing them to study is over the top, but the hard working attitude is impressive, and many people would benefit if others adopted a similar approach to their own studies or workplace habits.
I saw some thing on the TV the other day about how 'smokos' and 'coffee runs' are so frequent in the workplace that they are costing our economy big money.
Smoking particularly pisses me off. What makes people think that just because they have a tobacco addiction gives them the right to take breaks on their companies and fellow colleagues time to fuel these urges angers me greatly.
The sooner smoking is banned in public the better. I heard one council in Brisbane is doing it. The day it becomes national law will be something we hopefully live to see.
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The sooner smoking is banned in public the better. I heard one council in Brisbane is doing it. The day it becomes national law will be something we hopefully live to see.
From a non-smoker's point of view that's great but I think the government may be a little hesitant from going too far with anti-smoking laws. After all, the taxes from cigarettes are rolling the money in for them.
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin'
So true.
Exactly! I'm the first in my family (not just immediate) to go to uni and let me tell you, my cousin is an electrician and is already rolling in the dough. Me a uni student will rack up a 15k debt for my BSc and I don't even want to know what it will be for masters. All of this just because I decided to put off that gratification of earning straight away and pursuing studies I love.
Don't get me wrong I would not change a thing and feel so privelliged to get to learn what I do, but it's going to kind of suck knowing that my professional life won't start until I'm atleast in my mid 20's (thats if I do well next year (to get into masters) and then in masters and decide to bite the bullet and go for the PhD - that requires an H2A in masters so it is definitely not a given).
Having said that, we are lucky we are not in America where the cost of uni is so high it's ridiculous.
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin' and that's what the migrants are doing, incl. my parents I suppose, but they don't really push me to study, they just stand back a bit and expect me to ace everything, and if I don't, they think something's really wrong and I get a concerned, disappointed and slightly angry talking to.
Your attitude needs fixing. Why is a professional job necessarily more valuable than trades skills? We need both.
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Building on what Eriny said, I would hope that you choose to study a field you have a genuine interest in. Why then, should you be payed more for doing what you love as opposed to someone who is working their ass off in a boring job for the rest of their life?
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin' and that's what the migrants are doing, incl. my parents I suppose, but they don't really push me to study, they just stand back a bit and expect me to ace everything, and if I don't, they think something's really wrong and I get a concerned, disappointed and slightly angry talking to.
Your attitude needs fixing. Why is a professional job necessarily more valuable than trades skills? We need both.
Because a lot of trades people are a shame to their field of work. All they are interested is finding every excuse under the sun to get out of doing their job, and stereotypically they are uneducated.
Some tradespeople are complete tools, which granted, these types of people exist in all professions, but more so in trades than anywhere else.
I'll never forget the time two idiot young tradies were yelling at each other in my house trying to find a wire whilst attempting to install an air conditioning unit.
Of course we need tradespeople, but they seriously need to lift their attitude.
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Building on what Eriny said, I would hope that you choose to study a field you have a genuine interest in. Why then, should you be payed more for doing what you love as opposed to someone who is working their ass off in a boring job for the rest of their life?
I am of the opinion that most people go to TAFE and then enter a trade because they are too lazy to work hard and get an education rather than because they find it a more stimulating career option. It suits their bludgy lifestyle perfectly.
Again, I would like to reiterate that I am not talking about all tradies, but a certain group of them.
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Building on what Eriny said, I would hope that you choose to study a field you have a genuine interest in. Why then, should you be payed more for doing what you love as opposed to someone who is working their ass off in a boring job for the rest of their life?
I am of the opinion that most people go to TAFE and then enter a trade because they are too lazy to work hard and get an education rather than because they find it a more stimulating career option. It suits their bludgy lifestyle perfectly.
Again, I would like to reiterate that I am not talking about all tradies, but a certain group of them.
Was totally preparing my rage-cannon until I read your last sentence. Nice save, nice save.
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I don't know, I guess I'm sensitive about the issue because my dad is a tradie, but I think that people tend to have one or two bad experiences with them and then assume that all of them are bad. But, there are incompetent people in any job, incompetent CEOs, incompetent lawyers, incompetent salespeople, incompetent tellers, incompetent teachers, etc...
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Only in Australia are high academic standards a bad thing.
Only in Australia is it easy for high school-dropout tradies to earn more than professionals with post-grad qualifications. System needs fixin' and that's what the migrants are doing, incl. my parents I suppose, but they don't really push me to study, they just stand back a bit and expect me to ace everything, and if I don't, they think something's really wrong and I get a concerned, disappointed and slightly angry talking to.
Your attitude needs fixing. Why is a professional job necessarily more valuable than trades skills? We need both.
I'm not saying trades skills aren't valuable, although, with the automation available with 21st century technologies, plus the trend towards cheap outsourcing, the need for tradespeople will decline in certain fields, eg. factory workers, wharfies, carpenters.
What I'm saying is, professional people dedicate a lot of time and money to getting university degrees and often run up high debt before they've gotten their first job in their field. The path to becoming a tradie is much easier, and understandably tempting for many teenagers; there's a widespread mentality in our age bracket of "why should I work any harder than I have to, when I could make just as much money as a tradie?"
There's not much incentive for middle-band kids to go to uni. Only 3% of the world's population has a university-level education (last time I checked :P). Kids in the position where both a trade and a profession are viable career options should have an equal opportunity to choose which of the two would give them the most job satisfaction without factors such as money determining the outcome.
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I agree with that, but it doesn't mean that they should have to go to uni if they don't want to either.
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Tradies are the people that fix the shit you fuck up. They build your houses, unclog your toilets, fix your electrical systems, fix your roof after big storms etc etc and they should be paid less than someone who sits at a desk all day?
Edit: Sorry for this post. My dad's a tradie and works really fucking hard. It's a sensitive topic.
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Tradies are the people that fix the shit you fuck up. They build your houses, unclog your toilets, fix your electrical systems, fix your roof after big storms etc etc and they should be paid less than someone who sits at a desk all day?
Edit: Sorry for this post. My dad's a tradie and works really fucking hard. It's a sensitive topic.
It is fine. Lots of people in my family are tradies too. I'll be the first to even get a tertiary education.
Like I said, it is a specific group of them though. They don't want to work hard, and do half assed jobs.
My dad moved house and I go to my new room to find that the stupid foxtel contractor has run one cable to one side of the room, and another to the other side of the room. It looks ridiculous. Sheer laziness.
Then I remember the time a plumber severed a pipe under our house, didn't say anything, and then a month later our house was flooded.
Too many bad experiences with these types of careless people seriously anger me. There are loads more. Have had some good ones too though. :)
It is a shame that more of them do not take pride in their work. That is all I am saying.
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ha those crappy ones should go out of business!
did u get the foxtel thing sorted out?
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Tradies work hard - the honest, dedicated ones anyway. In any career, there are going to be people who work their ass off to earn a living, and people who don't make any effort whatsoever. A lot of the work that tradespeople do is physically demanding, but a lot kids our age just see it as a chance to slack off, because in the short-term, it's a much, much easier path to take than higher education.
In the long term though, the tradies' work gets harder, but not many of the slacker kids have the foresight to understand that.
I still stand by the point I made before, though.
Oh and ZOMG, my foxtel's been buggy! But apparently we're getting a new set-top box for free, on account of the signal dropping every few hours. This has nothing to do with anything. I haven't even watched anything on foxtel in months.
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"but a lot kids our age just see it as a chance to slack off"
how do u define "alot" ? and how do u know this?
if someone really wanted to get into uni or tafe they would try to get in
and besides whats wrong with slackers? if they become too slack on the job then obviously no one will hire them if they cant do the job
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My friend goes to a rather liberal/progressive school, which he says is FULL of slackers, who just want to go into construction work because they think it will be a breeze.
I spose that's not particularly conclusive evidence.
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haha yeah probably not
but anyway goodluck to them
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Why is a higher standard of education bad? God forbid we become too smart.
haha lol
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My parents don't push us enough lol
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Personally I believe they do and for some it's a great thing, for some, it's a not-so-great thing but at the end of the day, it comes down to what we like and what we plan to do. If we want to do something like medicine, I guess it's great to have a "migrant parent" pressuring us to do well, however too much pressure may influence negativity on the child