ATAR Notes: Forum
General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: thushan on September 27, 2012, 10:33:24 am
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As we well know, Jill Meagher has disappeared at around half past 1 in the morning whilst walking home from a bar in Brunswick. Discussion in the media abounded and this poses the following questions:
- What is your take on a woman, specifically a woman, being on the street late at night? The dimensions of this discussion I think are Women's Rights and Gender Roles/Stereotypes, Freedom, and what SHOULD be as opposed to what it IS PRAGMATICALLY.
Further follow-on questions:
- What are the implications of this story on the gender disparity in terms of one's safety on the street?
- Some people have suggested that Jill Meagher may have been "drunk" or "asking for it." Whilst these claims are most probably false and quite sexist, it leads to an interesting discussion on this: Why such attitudes and stereotypes - what perpetuates this?
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Speaking as a girl, I feel like a lot of men fail to comprehend the fear we're inculcated to fear when we go outside in the dark. It's kind of scary and distressing. I feel unsafe to walk outside in my own neighbourhood. This is despite that statistically women are more likely to be attacked and raped by someone they know.
The stats on rape are scary. One in four women get raped. Men get raped too, but not nearly as many, and in general men are the rapists (not many women rapists exist). This is a really pressing and unresolved gender issue of our time - violence is used against us, if not literally, than the thought of it becomes part of the lived experience of women. I am not as entitled to enjoy the outdoors or walk home at night as a man is. It's pretty stark to me.
It's obviously prudent for women to take care when they are outside, alone, at night. It's better not to be in that situation. But, the charge that Jill Meagher deserved what happened to her is an incredibly flawed and upsetting argument. It's called victim-blaming. Nobody deserves to be attacked. We should never be vindictive towards the victim. All of us take precaution against crime - locking our doors, keeping an eye on our stuff, etc. but if don't, that doesn't make anyone entitled to steal things from us. It doesn't mean that we somehow wanted our things to be stolen. There's a fine line between warning people and asking them to be sensible, and blaming them for the times things do go wrong.
I also wonder about what impression we must have of men to argue that a woman is asking for it for being out late at night. Men aren't monsters, they are capable of not abducting, attacking, and raping women. They are capable of decent behaviour. They aren't lurking behind the corners at night time. We can ask more of men because they are capable of more than what they are often given credit for. This idea that men can't help themselves if they see a woman alone is totally ludicrous and damaging to both genders.
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+1 to eriny. I think it's unfortunate that women have to think much more about how to defend ourselves if such a case occurred.
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I agree. I would never go outside at night, alone if I could prevent it. Yes, it is our right to be able to walk the streets alone and not be attacked, but in too many instances incidents have happened when the outcome is a little scary.
We all have a sense of freedom, but when it comes to walking the streets at night, it can all become a little blurred. The statistics, as Eriny mentioned, are alarming.
As a woman, I would construct my day especially to avoid being alone at night, and put in force, everything I can do, to get home safely.
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I read Catherine Deveney's column on this and I must ask: Do women really find it offensive if a guy asks (or insists) on walking them at night?
And this adressing of men and women as some homogeneous blob feels weird.
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I find it demoralising that we need that company to walk the streets as night, but the fact is, we do. So no, I wouldn't find it offensive at all.
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This girl met me at the station one time and picked me for a chiller and decided to very intentionally follow me home because she lived in the same general direction. I clued onto what was happening but pretended to ignore her, up until the point where it just became too funny for both of us to contain, so we struck up a conversation and I officially walked this awesome stranger home. She's like 4 years my senior and we're friends now. Nothing happened that night, if this was at all suggestive. I just took her home, and she was super appreciative, and we both found the story really funny from that point on because she was SUPER blatant about wanting to walk home with a guy covering her.
Probably in part because it was midnight on the Napean Highway.
Sucks to be a girl in this respect, but imho you guys have got it sorted. Free drinks at bars? The guys ask YOU out? Bitch please. Do you know how much courage that shit takes if you're smitten for someone?
To any girls reading this, any guy that's ever asked you out should be proclaimed a saint for the courage displayed.
Back on topic: yes, it sucks that girls have to deal with this. But then again, we could be a patriarchal society filled with domineering males fuelled by religious propaganda and mass hysteria, so it's not all bad. IMHO there's bigger issues in the world than a person getting kidnapped and brutally murdered. That's not to say we shouldn't all be shocked and turn heads when it happens IN AUSTRALIA, but I also think there should be a lot more attention due to real issues. Russian politics is absolutely fucked. And there's a lot worse out there than that.
This just isn't an issue that I'm particularly holding close to my heart, for some reason. It's shocking and terrible, yes, but there is much worse than that going on in the world which I've been exposed to lately. I'll probably think along a different line tomorrow, but fuck it, you live once. Posting this and then sleep.
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They found her body. In a shallow grave. She was killed, and possibly raped (a man has been charged with her rape).
EDIT: Told my mum. Her response was along the lines of "i blame her, its her fault. she knows its dangerous, yet she still did it. what he did was very wrong, but she shouldn't have put herself in the situation in the first place." She had also earlier said "what is this woman doing at a bar at 1 am in the morning? womans (sic) should be home by 9 pm. she was probably a drunk." I couldn't believe my ears.
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They found her body. In a shallow grave. She was killed, and possibly raped (a man has been charged with her rape).
Absolutely disgusting. I can only hope that some day her family, husband and friends can recover from this trauma.
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Why El2012, why? Why do they have to rape and kill? Why? WHY? What is it they want? Is it sexual pleasure, and then "oh shit she's going to talk i should kill her," or is it the rush of degrading a woman and feeling powerful (which is just sick) because once you disarmed her you have the power to do anything to her? Or is it "i like to kill her, but before she's dead I'd like to pleasure myself first." It's SICK.
Life sentence hopefully. With some SERIOUS psychiatric treatment.
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Sucks to be a girl in this respect, but imho you guys have got it sorted. Free drinks at bars? The guys ask YOU out? Bitch please. Do you know how much courage that shit takes if you're smitten for someone?
To any girls reading this, any guy that's ever asked you out should be proclaimed a saint for the courage displayed.
Back on topic: yes, it sucks that girls have to deal with this. But then again, we could be a patriarchal society filled with domineering males fuelled by religious propaganda and mass hysteria, so it's not all bad. IMHO there's bigger issues in the world than a person getting kidnapped and brutally murdered. That's not to say we shouldn't all be shocked and turn heads when it happens IN AUSTRALIA, but I also think there should be a lot more attention due to real issues. Russian politics is absolutely fucked. And there's a lot worse out there than that.
This just isn't an issue that I'm particularly holding close to my heart, for some reason. It's shocking and terrible, yes, but there is much worse than that going on in the world which I've been exposed to lately. I'll probably think along a different line tomorrow, but fuck it, you live once. Posting this and then sleep.
I hardly think that you can compare asking a girl out with fear of being physically harmed. Plus, you know, girls ask guys out too.
Also, violence against women is a huge problem world over, often used as a weapon in wars (by all sides, plus within one side). It's also used to try and silence and intimidate 50% of the population. There may be more important issues, but we're all capable of thinking about more than one issue.
I read Catherine Deveney's column on this and I must ask: Do women really find it offensive if a guy asks (or insists) on walking them at night?
And this adressing of men and women as some homogeneous blob feels weird.
If I know them, not really. If it was a stranger, I guess it would depend on the vibe but I think it would be more creepy rather than offensive.
Some men are surprised to find that women don't tend to like being cat called. They're like, 'accept the compliment'. But no, it's not a compliment. It doesn't make my day to think some guy thinks I'm attractive. I'm not in the world to please them. Plus, it makes me feel unsafe.
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I read Catherine Deveney's column on this and I must ask: Do women really find it offensive if a guy asks (or insists) on walking them at night?
And this adressing of men and women as some homogeneous blob feels weird.
This leads to another question - how can you trust that the guy walking you at night isn't himself going to rape and kill you? He's got you at your most vulnerable. :/
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Poor lady. Although she should have been aware of the consquences of being alone at night, in a wider persepective, I don't think women are to blame. Just because she was alone and had just left a bar, does not mean she 'asked for it'. Seriously, rape is the fault of the rapist and no one else.
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Absolutely. But I want to further discuss this point that many people in the public seem to make often - they say she should be partially held responsible because she put herself in a dangerous situation by being alone at night. Similar situations could arise in the future, and we might have to make similar decisions during our lives. What do you think of this notion?
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The man who did this is very sick but I hope the courts don't let him off in the slightest. This is a massive tragedy :(
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I'd rather not think about the criminal who did this to this poor woman.
Absolutely. But I want to further discuss this point that many people in the public seem to make often - they say she should be partially held responsible because she put herself in a dangerous situation by being alone at night. Similar situations could arise in the future, and we might have to make similar decisions during our lives. What do you think of this notion?
* She lived freakin 5 minutes away, and she wasn't able walk there without being physically harmed.
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Yeah. Some in the public argue (including my mum) that no matter how far away you live, a woman MUST be accompanied by a trusted person. To be safe, a man and two other women (to mitigate the risk of the man himself raping the woman). But then that's an assumption that all men are potential rapists. How far do we go in terms of precaution?
Others say that she shouldn't even BE outside the house at 1 am and that she was stupid for being outside the house at night.
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Well, sure it is a risk and I'm betting she knew that but people do things that are risky every day and no one expects to be that person to get raped or kidnapped. She should been more cautious, for sure, but I don't think it is soley up to the women to be safe because you could still be safe but still be in danger. You're pretty much in danger everywhere, when you think about it. Even if you stay at home all dat, you could still be raped and killed. More awareness is needed in terms of keeping safe but the problem of rapists and dangerous people at night still needs to be addressed.
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Yes, as Nisha previously posted- although it's demoralising, it's something that's needed to be accompanied by someone known so late at night.
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Yes, as Nisha previously posted- although it's demoralising, it's something that's needed to be accompanied by someone known so late at night.
Either way, that cannot always assure your safety.
What if you and your trusted person were attacked by a gang?
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Well, sure it is a risk and I'm betting she knew that but people do things that are risky every day and no one expects to be that person to get raped or kidnapped. She should been more cautious, for sure, but I don't think it is soley up to the women to be safe because you could still be safe but still be in danger. You're pretty much in danger everywhere, when you think about it. Even if you stay at home all dat, you could still be raped and killed. More awareness is needed in terms of keeping safe but the problem of rapists and dangerous people at night still needs to be addressed.
And what's more, WHY do people become rapists? WHY do people become murderers? I personally believe that these things should start being treated as treatable mental illnesses. We have to be careful here though. If we associate mental illness with "murder" and "rape," in that murderers and rapists will most likely have a mental illness (namely psycopathy or sociopathy), we have to be absolutely crystal clear that the converse does not hold. That is, mental illness of any sort does not imply psychopathy/sociopathy/rape/murder. And we don't want to drag down the connotations of mental illness like this because there are other illnesses that MUST not be treated so harshly, particularly depression.
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Yes, as Nisha previously posted- although it's demoralising, it's something that's needed to be accompanied by someone known so late at night.
Either way, that cannot always assure your safety.
What if you and your trusted person were attacked by a gang?
Yes true. It can only potentially save you from one, or maybe two individuals.
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Yes, as Nisha previously posted- although it's demoralising, it's something that's needed to be accompanied by someone known so late at night.
Either way, that cannot always assure your safety.
What if you and your trusted person were attacked by a gang?
Take it to the next step as a thought experiment - should people even BE OUT at late night if they value their safety? Pragmatically? We are not talking about whether people have the RIGHT to be out at night, because they do. We are talking about, based on common sense, should people (men AND women) be outside the house at night?
You could also take the other approach and say "everyone should be armed to protect themselves." Oh wait, welcome to the United States. Let's not get started on that idea.
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Yes, as Nisha previously posted- although it's demoralising, it's something that's needed to be accompanied by someone known so late at night.
Either way, that cannot always assure your safety.
What if you and your trusted person were attacked by a gang?
Take it to the next step as a thought experiment - should people even BE OUT at late night if they value their safety? Pragmatically? We are not talking about whether people have the RIGHT to be out at night, because they do. We are talking about, based on common sense, should people (men AND women) be outside the house at night?
You could also take the other approach and say "everyone should be armed to protect themselves." Oh wait, welcome to the United States. Let's not get started on that idea.
Yes, I think that people should, if they want to, walk outside at night, anytime they like. While there is a risk, and a higher risk than there is during the day, of being abducted/bashed/robbed/raped etc., the likelihood is very small. You shouldn't let fear dictate what you do, unless of course that risk is high. In a case like this, I don't think the risk is high enough to stop me, at least, from walking outside at night.
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Definitely not a good idea to be out at that time. Apparently it was only a 5-minute walk and you never think it'll happen to you
By the way (might be a bit off-topic) I just read that this might be guy
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/youre-being-followed-backpacker-sexually-assaulted-after-con-20120801-23dvb.html
Nah, that's fair enough - on topic.
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Yes, as Nisha previously posted- although it's demoralising, it's something that's needed to be accompanied by someone known so late at night.
Either way, that cannot always assure your safety.
What if you and your trusted person were attacked by a gang?
Take it to the next step as a thought experiment - should people even BE OUT at late night if they value their safety? Pragmatically? We are not talking about whether people have the RIGHT to be out at night, because they do. We are talking about, based on common sense, should people (men AND women) be outside the house at night?
You could also take the other approach and say "everyone should be armed to protect themselves." Oh wait, welcome to the United States. Let's not get started on that idea.
Yes, I think that people should, if they want to, walk outside at night, anytime they like. While there is a risk, and a higher risk than there is during the day, of being abducted/bashed/robbed/raped etc., the likelihood is very small. You shouldn't let fear dictate what you do, unless of course that risk is high. In a case like this, I don't think the risk is high enough to stop me, at least, from walking outside at night.
I'd say this though - at night, fewer people around, more secluded area, harder to see your surroundings. That'd leave you pretty vulnerable, even if the risk of getting attacked is only slightly higher.
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sometimes I get paranoid to walk alone during the day - once when I was walking to my usual bus stop to go to Chjadstone and a car pulled up with a man (looked a little suss) asking directions to Chadstone then he asked where I was headed and I said Chadstone then he said "want a lift?" and I said "nah ill be fine thanks"
"really?"
"I dont mind travelling"
"aw cmon"
"no really I am fine."
I remember having my back against the glass wall of the bus stop thinking he'd get out of the car but he eventually drove off when another man came to the bus stop
I just find it sad that things like this can happen during the day :(
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Heart breaking to hear about these things :( I don't really want to say anything too lengthy but I think society is really, really screwed up. Well maybe as an entirety but the minorities. Like every situation they make a group of people seem much worse than they are and the thugs/criminals whatever you want to call them do that to society, think about suburbs in Melbourne some have a terrible reputation but many contain a lot of good people too. What worries me the most is the lack of social values and why people commit such acts.
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We are talking about, based on common sense, should people (men AND women) be outside the house at night?
In all honesty, we have a lot of creeps and weirdos in the world, and many choose to present themselves in the night. By common sense, no, I wouldn't venture the suburbs or the city by myself past 10/11pm (but I suppose I've been brought up that way to some extent), but by NO means does that put the blame on Jill for her rape and murder. She had every right to take that walk, and seeing as though the walk was such a short one, it's not one that's unreasonable to take. It's just a tragedy what has occurred though :(
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the whole problem just stems from the fact that so many men just think with their dick and dont even care about what the girl is thinking or feeling, 0 self control and 0 worry for repurcussions
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the whole problem just stems from the fact that so many men just think with their dick and dont even care about what the girl is thinking or feeling, 0 self control and 0 worry for repurcussions
I dont think men think with their dick to the point that they would rape a stranger and dispose of their body :\
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There's a Facebook page that's been set up that calls for the public hanging of the alleged murderer. Some pretty sickening stuff is posted on there. It reminds me of Wikipedia's featured article from yesterday, about the lynching of Jesse Washington nearly 100 years ago. It's sad to see that even though race isn't an issue this time, there are still people who think that something like that is justified.
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how did they find the body?
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Murderer gave them the heads up
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Murderer gave them the heads up
(http://comicbook.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/futurama-fry-billy-west.jpg)
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that's so fucked for the husband too, his brother flew from dublin to comfort him... far out
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Whilst not victim-blaming, my parents (being traditional Italians) said that it was inappropriate for Jillian to act as a single woman in that she went out on her own, saying that her husband should have attended the event with her. How do you feel about this? Do you believe a married couple should always stick together for special occasions?
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Whilst not victim-blaming, my parents (being traditional Italians) said that it was inappropriate for Jillian to act as a single woman in that she went out on her own, saying that her husband should have attended the event with her. How do you feel about this? Do you believe a married couple should always stick together for special occasions?
No I don't agree with this at all. People are allowed to be their own person, why should they always have to be in the company of their significant other?
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I would say 87.5% of the "blame" would be on the murderer.
Impressive quantification of responsibility you have there...
the whole problem just stems from the fact that so many men just think with their dick and dont even care about what the girl is thinking or feeling, 0 self control and 0 worry for repurcussions
nb I think this is just as bad and misguided as "it's women's fault for being sluts and wearing those outfits at night"
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Whilst not victim-blaming, my parents (being traditional Italians) said that it was inappropriate for Jillian to act as a single woman in that she went out on her own, saying that her husband should have attended the event with her. How do you feel about this? Do you believe a married couple should always stick together for special occasions?
Hell no, I would get so sick of my partner I need my own space and time thanks
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Absolutely devastating story. Stories like these just leave you feeling heavy for the rest of the day. RIP Jill
I live not too far from Brunswick, have traveled along Sydney Rd many times late at night (by car), its usually full of people, always seemed like a nice and vibrant area. Though I have seen dodgy stuff going on every now and then.
It just makes me wonder about the more dangerous suburbs that we have. My friend regularly tells me stories about Dandenong station, leaves a sour feeling in my stomach.
Curious, anyone here go for late-night jogs/bike-rides? How safe do you feel?
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Just like to clarify a couple of points
-Rape isn't men 'thinking with their dicks'
-Rape is a power thing, not something to assuage sexual desires.
-Rape can never be the victim's fault. Idgaf if the girl is lying catatonic and naked in the middle of the footpath, if someone rapes her, the rapist did it. Not her. A rape victim can never 'ask' for rape. If they 'asked' for it. It wouldn't be fucking rape, that'd be consensual sex.
Curious, anyone here go for late-night jogs/bike-rides? How safe do you feel?
I run at night, I've walked home from parties at night, to and fro my Mum's and Dad's house at night. As for safety, I'm comfortable doing so because I'm very alert. Never take short-cuts, I don't travel on the same side of the road as anyone else etc etc etc and I'm comfortable with my own ability to fight/flight. I acknowledge the dangers. However, and this is probably going to sound sexist or like I think I'm some sort of shining knight that needs to protect the little biddies, but I'd never want any (girl)friend of mine walk home alone at night. I've gone to my girlfriend's house at night to walk her to mine, I've walked a mate to his house before mine after a party etc. If someone didn't want me to walk them home, I'd probably just follow them and cop the consequences later.
So to answer Thushan's question, pragmatically women (and probably men here, let's face it, but I've been taught to be deferential to women even though I sometimes think it contravenes my own equalist ideals) should always be accompanied home as a precaution. However that doesn't mean a lone person is 'stupid' or 'deserves it' if something unfortunate befalls them. It is never-ever the fault of the victim. If a girl walks down a dark alley, whilst it's probably true that she 'shouldn't be there in the first place', ultimately, 'murderers and rapists shouldn't murder and rape in the first place.'
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Whilst not victim-blaming, my parents (being traditional Italians) said that it was inappropriate for Jillian to act as a single woman in that she went out on her own, saying that her husband should have attended the event with her. How do you feel about this? Do you believe a married couple should always stick together for special occasions?
This is a fairly archaic view imo.
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Whilst not victim-blaming, my parents (being traditional Italians) said that it was inappropriate for Jillian to act as a single woman in that she went out on her own, saying that her husband should have attended the event with her. How do you feel about this? Do you believe a married couple should always stick together for special occasions?
This is a fairly archaic view imo.
agreed.
If someone didn't want me to walk them home, I'd probably just follow them and cop the consequences later.
Brenden, you're a good friend looking out for your mates like that.
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Curious, anyone here go for late-night jogs/bike-rides? How safe do you feel?
Never, solely because of my fear of being raped/attacked/murdered. I know that it isn't an extrememly common thing but I don't want to risk it in the slightest but it's weird because late night jobs are fairly common in my area, so I'm assuming that these people don't feel much fear at all.
Good on you, Brenden. :) I really admire that.
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Whilst not victim-blaming, my parents (being traditional Italians) said that it was inappropriate for Jillian to act as a single woman in that she went out on her own, saying that her husband should have attended the event with her. How do you feel about this? Do you believe a married couple should always stick together for special occasions?
My mum has the same idea. Disagree though.
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My mum has the same idea. Disagree though.
Same here.
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If someone didn't want me to walk them home, I'd probably just follow them and cop the consequences later.
Brenden, you're a good friend looking out for your mates like that.
Perhaps. I think that's how friendship should work.
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I like to look at things from a probability perspective. The chance of being raped and murdered on a walk home at night are less than 1 in 1,000,000. I'm not going to let an extremely rare, isolated, freak incident like this discourage me from walking around at night.
Did you know that the chance of you dying in a car crash is over 1000 times more likely than the chance that you will be murdered? That doesn't mean that we should be paranoid about getting in a car.
There are rational fears and irrational ones. Worrying about being raped and murdered on a 5 minute walk to your house is an irrational one. As much as the media tries to hype this situation up, Australia is a safe country. I will continue going for walks late at night whenever I see fit.
sometimes I get paranoid to walk alone during the day - once when I was walking to my usual bus stop to go to Chjadstone and a car pulled up with a man (looked a little suss) asking directions to Chadstone then he asked where I was headed and I said Chadstone then he said "want a lift?" and I said "nah ill be fine thanks"
"really?"
"I dont mind travelling"
"aw cmon"
"no really I am fine."
I remember having my back against the glass wall of the bus stop thinking he'd get out of the car but he eventually drove off when another man came to the bus stop
I just find it sad that things like this can happen during the day :(
What are you suggesting? That the man who offered you a lift home was a serial killer? I highly doubt he was. Chances are, he was a polite man trying to help you, but you refused on the grounds that you have trust issues. I've gotten in the car with strangers about 10 times and never had a problem with any of them. I'm not suggesting that you do the same, but strangers are not necessarily dangerous people (only a small proportion are). You shouldn't judge people that you don't know.
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What are you suggesting? That the man who offered you a lift home was a serial killer? I highly doubt he was. Chances are, he was a polite man trying to help you, but you refused on the grounds that you have trust issues.
Yes, not accepting lifts from strangers comes under the heading of "trust issues" -.-
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What are you suggesting? That the man who offered you a lift home was a serial killer? I highly doubt he was. Chances are, he was a polite man trying to help you, but you refused on the grounds that you have trust issues.
Yes, not accepting lifts from strangers comes under the heading of "trust issues" -.-
If you want to quote me, take the whole quote, not just a section of it. I said:
I'm not suggesting that you do the same, but strangers are not necessarily dangerous people (only a small proportion are). You shouldn't judge people that you don't know.
But technically speaking, you're right. It is a trust issue. In an ideal society, we would be able to take lifts from strangers and nothing would go wrong.
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I like to look at things from a probability perspective. The chance of being raped and murdered on a walk home at night are less than 1 in 1,000,000. I'm not going to let an extremely rare, isolated, freak incident like this discourage me from walking around at night.
Did you know that the chance of you dying in a car crash is over 1000 times more likely than the chance that you will be murdered? That doesn't mean that we should be paranoid about getting in a car.
There are rational fears and irrational ones. Worrying about being raped and murdered on a 5 minute walk to your house is an irrational one. As much as the media tries to hype this situation up, Australia is a safe country. I will continue going for walks late at night whenever I see fit.
sometimes I get paranoid to walk alone during the day - once when I was walking to my usual bus stop to go to Chjadstone and a car pulled up with a man (looked a little suss) asking directions to Chadstone then he asked where I was headed and I said Chadstone then he said "want a lift?" and I said "nah ill be fine thanks"
"really?"
"I dont mind travelling"
"aw cmon"
"no really I am fine."
I remember having my back against the glass wall of the bus stop thinking he'd get out of the car but he eventually drove off when another man came to the bus stop
I just find it sad that things like this can happen during the day :(
What are you suggesting? That the man who offered you a lift home was a serial killer? I highly doubt he was. Chances are, he was a polite man trying to help you, but you refused on the grounds that you have trust issues. I've gotten in the car with strangers about 10 times and never had a problem with any of them. I'm not suggesting that you do the same, but strangers are not necessarily dangerous people (only a small proportion are). You shouldn't judge people that you don't know.
Wow you think you can trust a complete stranger? If you look at furbob's post more closely with the dialogue between her and the male, the male is incredibly persistent in asking for a lift. If that doesn't count as suspicious, i don't know what is.
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Seems to be adhering more to the principles of 'stranger danger' than trust issues lol.
I wouldn't really call him polite either. Manners would dictate not really pushing hte matter with a teenage girl at a bus stop to get in your car. That seems more forceful.
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If you look at furbob's post more closely with the dialogue between her and the male, the male is incredibly persistent in asking for a lift. If that doesn't count as suspicious, i don't know what is.
Hmm I can see your point. Maybe if he just asked once and then drove off it would've been better.
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What are you suggesting? That the man who offered you a lift home was a serial killer? I highly doubt he was. Chances are, he was a polite man trying to help you, but you refused on the grounds that you have trust issues.
Yes, not accepting lifts from strangers comes under the heading of "trust issues" -.-
If you want to quote me, take the whole quote, not just a section of it. I said:
I'm not suggesting that you do the same, but strangers are not necessarily dangerous people (only a small proportion are). You shouldn't judge people that you don't know.
But technically speaking, you're right. It is a trust issue. In an ideal society, we would be able to take lifts from strangers and nothing would go wrong.
Women are inculcated into thinking that we're constantly under threat from men. Don't blame Furbob for being fearful - blame a culture/media that wants her to be fearful.
Also agree with the persistence thing.
I once accepted a ride from a stranger. I was in Arizona and if I didn't I'd probably still be wandering about in the desert (it's a long story). It felt totally wrong and went against everything I've ever been told, but probabilistically and in relation to how lost I was, it was the right choice. Plus, he drove a Rolls Royce! (does that make it better?)
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Was watching the evening news with the parentals and my dad asked me whose fault it was. I said it was the murderers fault. And he and my mum said no it was the girls fault, she shouldnt have been walking alone at that time of the night. I can understand where they are coming from, it just isnt safe for women to be alone at that time of the night. It would be idealistic to believe that the streets of Melbourne are safe at night. Perhaps if we lived in a perfect world then it would fine, but thats obviously not going to happen.
Although it probably didnt help that I got home at 2 last night :)
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Was watching the evening news with the parentals and my dad asked me whose fault it was. I said it was the murderers fault. And he and my mum said no it was the girls fault, she shouldnt have been walking alone at that time of the night. I can understand where they are coming from, it just isnt safe for women to be alone at that time of the night. It would be idealistic to believe that the streets of Melbourne are safe at night. Perhaps if we lived in a perfect world then it would fine, but thats obviously not going to happen.
Although it probably didnt help that I got home at 2 last night :)
I see where they are coming from as well but a murder can't be justified by a 'well, it's her fault because she was out late'.
I don't know. It's just horrible. Her poor, poor family.
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Was watching the evening news with the parentals and my dad asked me whose fault it was. I said it was the murderers fault. And he and my mum said no it was the girls fault, she shouldnt have been walking alone at that time of the night. I can understand where they are coming from, it just isnt safe for women to be alone at that time of the night. It would be idealistic to believe that the streets of Melbourne are safe at night. Perhaps if we lived in a perfect world then it would fine, but thats obviously not going to happen.
Although it probably didnt help that I got home at 2 last night :)
Their opinion, in my opinion, is a defeatist and blame-shifting attitude. It's defeatist because it promotes the view that there will always be rapists and if you are raped then you must have done something wrong. Shifting the blame to someone who has been raped and murdered is pretty horrible. The only person whose fault it was is the person who felt it acceptable to commit two of the worst, if not the worst, crimes in our society.
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If a guy broke into my home, murdered my family and made me watch. Would I be in the wrong for not filling my lawn with landmines?
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If a guy broke into my home, murdered my family and made me watch. Would I be in the wrong for not filling my lawn with landmines?
I would support you all the way
Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something
Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs?
That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
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I think the point my parents were getting at, is that it could have been avoided were she not alone at that time of the night. Obviously we can get to the what if's and could of's and should haves, to begin with the existance of the horrible creature who committed such a crime in the first place, but I guess the fact of the matter is that it could have been avoided were she with someone. I think thats coming from the view of someone who has a daughter. It could have been been anyone, but if that anyone had someone with them, it could have been averted. Perhaps in this day and age its just naive to think that you can walk around at night alone. Even your neighbours or people in your neighborhood may not be who you think they are. Its just realistic that an idealistic, perfect world doesnt exist and sometimes perhaps a bit of paranoia and pessimism is required to survive. Having said that I would have done the same, dont find an issue with walking around by myself at night, not that I do it alot, but I guess a bit of caution has entered my mind now, due to this unfortunate and horrible story. In the perspective of young women, sometimes the streets at any time of the day its just not safe and women have to acknowledge that I guess, which is sad enough as it is.
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If you consider that most rapists are people quite familiar with their victims (this and other incidents like this being for the most part exceptions) then is it the victims fault if they find themselves alone in the same room as a man?
Further, regardless of reality, it is absurd to say its her fault. You can say that she shouldn't have been out at night alone but that's quite different. The idea that you should expect to get raped if you're out at night alone is incredibly unjust.
We're always telling women 'don't get raped' but we don't tell men 'don't rape'. It's ridiculously sexist.
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Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something
Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs?
That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off.
Similarly, it's legal to use reasonable force in the belief that you're about to be harmed. Eg, you're backed up against a wall and someone has his fists up saying "I'm gonna knock your fucking block off" - you're within your rights to hit him first (usually once) and run away. If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.
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Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something
Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs?
That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off.
Similarly, it's legal to use reasonable force in the belief that you're about to be harmed. Eg, you're backed up against a wall and someone has his fists up saying "I'm gonna knock your fucking block off" - you're within your rights to hit him first (usually once) and run away. If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.
I'm no lawyer (far far from it), but afaik, unless it's self defense, you *could* be sued. But this is based off hearsay and my own inferences from news stories.
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Is it true that if someone breaks into your house, you can't use force to subdue them? I remember once a few years back, one of our neighbours were broken into while they were out. And they complained about the police saying "not using force" or something
Can a criminal sue you for breaking a bone of theirs?
That is stupid. They must consider all risks before deciding to break into a house.
I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off.
Similarly, it's legal to use reasonable force in the belief that you're about to be harmed. Eg, you're backed up against a wall and someone has his fists up saying "I'm gonna knock your fucking block off" - you're within your rights to hit him first (usually once) and run away. If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.
I'm no lawyer (far far from it), but afaik, unless it's self defense, you *could* be sued. But this is based off hearsay and my own inferences from news stories.
What about the mental aspect of it? You see a stranger in your house and sometimes it's the person's natural instinct to use physical violence? ???
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If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.
And I don't get this.
The person has broken into YOUR house.
Are we all going to sit meekly and let someone steal stuff?
Why in the world should the home-owner run? Why?
Take out the cricket bat and hit him for six should be the response.
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...and then get charged for assault :P
ASIDE: oft quoted story, not sure if true, if true, probably happened in the US. Robber robs a house, trips over stairs, sues home owners. Wins the house.
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If you weren't against a wall though it would be hard to justify the use of force instead of running.
And I don't get this.
The person has broken into YOUR house.
Are we all going to sit meekly and let someone steal stuff?
Why in the world should the home-owner run? Why?
Take out the cricket bat and hit him for six should be the response.
Haha sorry this was pertaining to my example if you were in an alley or something similar and I meant in an urban environment, if you were just on the footpath and not backed up against a wall.
"I'm not fully sure on whether or not the law has changed, but there was a case a while back in which a man shot a robber in his house and was let off."
Was intended to answer your question.
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Yes, it is our right to be able to walk the streets alone and not be attacked, but in too many instances incidents have happened when the outcome is a little scary.
It's never the fault of the person it happens to of course, such a horrible thing should never happen to anyone.
I think it's still sensible and important to take precautions and not throw common sense out the window either. In this case, she was on a public street, in full view of people, it was a totally brazen attack.
Even as a bloke though, there are some areas of melbourne i wouldn't go down alone. A lot of the people here seem to be pretty well off in general but there are some real dodgy suburbs around melbourne. I've had friends who have seen a guy get the shit beat out of him for no reason in sunshine (nice name, bad place). I've had mates that have been mugged walking home alone after a night out, granted through a dodgy suburb, on the same route i used to walk home on (going for something with a bit more lights, not that most people would do anything). Hell, i've even had friends that have been smacked with guns before (they weren't into anything dodgy either, wrong place wrong time).
If i walked down the places i knew were dodgy, alone, late at night, it isn't my fault they decide to take my wallet and i should be able to walk anywhere i want but it's probably not a good idea to go down there either.
It should never happen and it's definitely wrong but everyone should still be vigilant and take thought into what they're doing (again, this case is sad, theres nothing she could of done, she was on a busy road, i'm surprised someone didn't stop).
And what's more, WHY do people become rapists? WHY do people become murderers? I personally believe that these things should start being treated as treatable mental illnesses. We have to be careful here though. If we associate mental illness with "murder" and "rape," in that murderers and rapists will most likely have a mental illness (namely psycopathy or sociopathy), we have to be absolutely crystal clear that the converse does not hold. That is, mental illness of any sort does not imply psychopathy/sociopathy/rape/murder. And we don't want to drag down the connotations of mental illness like this because there are other illnesses that MUST not be treated so harshly, particularly depression.
I agree with a lot of what you said. Our model of justice is based on centuries old ideas of retribution, punishment and just locking people up.
I also agree with you on some level. It's not normal behaviour to kill other people, especially in a pre-meditated fashion, you've gotta be somewhat mentally unwell to be a serial killer and be able to take human lives time after time like that.
On the other-hand, i don't think we should associate every crime with a mental illness. The most popular diagnostic criteria continue to become more and more broad, casting a wider and wider net. Where would we stop as well? Would you say thieves have some kind of mental illness or are just opportunistic greedy assholes, at least some of the time? You could argue they have a mental illness but i think then we're implying there is a very, very normative narrow state that every human being must fit. If people aren't exactly like me or my ethics, they could have a mental illness.
There are plenty of drug dealers who know full well what they're doing and still do it for the profits, they're not necessarily mentally ill either. Human trafficking could be another example here.
I was watching an episode of cops one day and this lady hired a hitman (little did she know it was an undercover cop) to kill her husband because she wanted his money. She seemed relatively normal to me or at least able to think and control her thought processes and she did it anyway.
Whilst it's a totally seperate thing and i'm not comparing them at all, it wasn't too long ago that people thought being homosexual was almost a mental illness of some kind. We have to be very careful in creating narrow definitions of whats normal and what is mentally ill.
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We're always telling women 'don't get raped' but we don't tell men 'don't rape'. It's ridiculously sexist.
Actually, there's an entire government campaign specifically designed to discourage men from hurting women. It's the "Violence against women - Australia says no" ads.
But I see what you're trying to say. Whenever I go on Facebook and see a post about this incident with a message saying "let this be a warning to all women" or something along those lines, I get pretty frustrated. No-one should have to live in fear amongst the streets of their own neighbourhood. There is no "lesson" for women to learn. Instead, we should show images of the man in court and say "let this be a lesson to all men".
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^The way I see what the govt is trying to do(and I acknowledge the sexism) is that they think it's easier to prevent women going out at this hour etc rather than prevent crazy men from committing such atrocities. It's got some merit, because govt ads etc are more likely going to impact the women rather than the crazy males who do these crimes.
Having said that, my personal opinion is that the govt definitely needs to tackle the upstream issue of the males committing these horrendous crimes.
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^The way I see what the govt is trying to do(and I acknowledge the sexism) is that they think it's easier to prevent women going out at this hour etc rather than prevent crazy men from committing such atrocities. It's got some merit, because govt ads etc are more likely going to impact the women rather than the crazy males who do these crimes.
Having said that, my personal opinion is that the govt definitely needs to tackle the upstream issue of the males committing these horrendous crimes.
Definitely. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/
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I reckon a good campaign slogan could be "Don't be a prick."
You English Media Analysis students, feel free to analyse the hell out of this. Note the use of the contraction, the short simple sentence structure and imperative sentence type, and the use of the expletive.
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There is no "lesson" for women to learn. Instead, we should show images of the man in court and say "let this be a lesson to all men".
No we shouldn't, that's just going to create another problem, except with men in the firing line rather than women
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There is no "lesson" for women to learn. Instead, we should show images of the man in court and say "let this be a lesson to all men".
No we shouldn't, that's just going to create another problem, except with men in the firing line rather than women
Could you elaborate, Russ Thomas?
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I believe his name is Thomas the Tank Engine. :P
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Generalizing it as a "lesson to all men" is just depicting every man as a potential rapist, which is a) bad and b) somewhat offensive
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I believe his name is Thomas the Tank Engine. :P
My apologies 'dilmah' ;)
Generalizing it as a "lesson to all men" is just depicting every man as a potential rapist, which is a) bad and b) somewhat offensive
Oh yeah, fair call.
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http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2011/10/4e9dc53133cf4.jpg
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http://static.happyplace.com/assets/images/2011/10/4e9dc53133cf4.jpg
A very blunt approach, but I like it :)
Generalizing it as a "lesson to all men" is just depicting every man as a potential rapist, which is a) bad and b) somewhat offensive
Maybe the wording "lesson to all men" is a bit exaggerated. If they changed it to "a lesson to all rapists" then that would be less sexist and less offensive.
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EDIT: Told my mum. Her response was along the lines of "i blame her, its her fault. she knows its dangerous, yet she still did it. what he did was very wrong, but she shouldn't have put herself in the situation in the first place." She had also earlier said "what is this woman doing at a bar at 1 am in the morning? womans (sic) should be home by 9 pm. she was probably a drunk." I couldn't believe my ears.
I think your mother raises a good point Thushan, of course, I'm sure we all agree that what the man did was very wrong - there's no doubt about that, but of course, the woman in this situation has some responsibility as well. When I go outside, safety is obviously something that I keep in mind, I stick to areas that are safe, I avoid areas where I feel uncomfortable and I try to keep myself out of situations where I may possibly be open to danger. If bad comes to bad, I get a friend/family to accompany me.
Whilst it may be harsh to blame Jill herself, she did put herself in a position of vulnerability. Let's just say there was a probability of 1/10,000 that she would be attacked, if she puts herself in that position, then there is a chance that she will be attacked. I think what this does is serve as a reminder for all of us to stay safe and remember to keep our own safety in check. Obviously we can't live our lives without taking risks, but like with everything, we need to think about our actions and think about the consequences which can come of it.
For example, if I didn't have my car on me, I could easily catch public transport at night or I could pay more, catch a cab and foot the bill. I have a clear choice and I'll take on the one that is safer, because that safety is worth more to me than a small amount of money. In Jill's situation, she could have easily caught a cab, got someone else to walk home with her, gotten a family member to pick her up...etc. there were just so many things which she could have done in order to avoid the dangerous situation.
The truth is, I honestly think your mum has a very good point and the lesson of this story is that we should all look out for our own safety, not putting ourselves in situations of high risk and always keeping safety on the top of our minds.
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Hindsight and stuff.
It's completely understandable why she made those decisions i.e., not get walked home, catch a cab or have her husband pick her up, when she lived 5 minutes away from the bar.
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It's completely understandable why she made those decisions i.e., not get walked home, catch a cab or have her husband pick her up, when she lived 5 minutes away from the bar.
Of course it is, but I'm just pointing out that Thushan's mum's view of the situation isn't as bad as many would think.
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My problemwas mainly with the assumption that the woman was probably a drunkard and wild because she was not at home after 9 pm
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Paul how on Earth was Jill in any way, shape or form responsible for her own death?
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Paul how on Earth was Jill in any way, shape or form responsible for her own death?
How, in any way, shape or form did I say that she was responsible?
I said that we are all responsible for our own safety and that we should always remember to protect ourselves, which I still stand with, i.e. stay safe
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Paul how on Earth was Jill in any way, shape or form responsible for her own death?
How, in any way, shape or form did I say that she was responsible?
EDIT: Told my mum. Her response was along the lines of "i blame her, its her fault. she knows its dangerous, yet she still did it. what he did was very wrong, but she shouldn't have put herself in the situation in the first place." She had also earlier said "what is this woman doing at a bar at 1 am in the morning? womans (sic) should be home by 9 pm. she was probably a drunk." I couldn't believe my ears.
Answer
Whilst it may be harsh to blame Jill herself, she did put herself in a position of vulnerability.
:o :o :o :o :o ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? :o :o :o :o :o :o ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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She was responsible for putting herself in danger yes, but not for being attacked.
If I take risks on the road, I'm responsible for putting myself in danger but if some idiot rear-ends me by his own fault, he's still responsible for that. There is a difference.
I don't like people bending my words to suit their argument :(
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I'm with Paul on this one. Putting yourself in a position of vulnerability by being out at night alone is your responsibility, being attacked, raped and killed is absolutely NOT your responsibility at all. They're two separate things that shouldn't be confused.
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Then my apologies Paul. It wasn't my intention to twist your words but
I think your mother raises a good point Thushan, of course, I'm sure we all agree that what the man did was very wrong - there's no doubt about that, but of course, the woman in this situation has some responsibility as well.
my interpretation stemmed from that, and the quote that Water used as well. And in saying Thushan's Mum raised a good point I though you were agreeing with her statement "I blame her. It's her fault."
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She was responsible for putting herself in danger yes, but not for being attacked.
If I take risks on the road, I'm responsible for putting myself in danger but if some idiot rear-ends me by his own fault, he's still responsible for that. There is a difference.
I don't like people bending my words to suit their argument :(
Still, nobody has addressed this: statistically speaking, since most rapes occur within the home and not on the streets, why is someone at fault for making themselves 'more vulnerable' for being out at night, when it would be ridiculous to say that they they have made themselves 'more vulnerable' for hanging out alone with a male friend or family member? (or are they still responsible for that too?)
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I'll have a stab at this one Eriny.
Hanging out with a male friend or family member - this happens very very often compared to being out alone at night on the street. You take your measure of trust in the male friend/family member and you decide to make yourself vulnerable to them (say by being alone with them and whatnot). You may not consciously make the decision btw.
Since the former situation is much much more common than the latter, you would naturally have many more rapes within the home/by people that you know.
So the fact that rapes are more common within the home and the like does not necessarily imply that hanging out with a male friend/family member is more risky.
Mind you, making yourself vulnerable to a guy you don't know well in the home - for instance a guy you just met asks you to come over to his house...is considered not a smart idea in general.
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Thushan, are you saying more rapes occur in the home because there is a greater opportunity? As in, if there were equal opportunity in the streets there would be equal rape prevalence/
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Greater incidences where people are in a potential rape environment in the home than in the street.
That's just my suggestion. I may be wrong.
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Hm. I can't find anything empirical to do with rape in the home, but I do ask Thushan - if you believe someone walking five minutes from home has a degree of responsibility not to be there, shouldn't you too believe that women have a responsibility not to trust family friends despite them being known? Especially when taking into account that 2/3 rapes are committed by someone known to the victim? Why does how often the activity occurs differentiate the level of responsibility supposedly held by the victim? It's arguably common for women to walk the streets and not get raped and murdered when they do so what's the differentiating factor pertaining to responsibility? (Not meaning to be confrontational, just posing questions)
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Oh - OK activity incidence doesn't determine responsibility; I was merely giving an alternate explanation as to why rapes in the home etc are more common.
Women do have a responsibility to be vigilant around their family friends - this vigilance will die down once they figure out the family friend is benign. However, out on the street at night-time, is it legitimate to say that there would be a high number of 'dodgy' people around?
Perhaps my opinion is biased, because I take the statement "streets are not safe at night" axiomatically.
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They have a responsibility to be vigilant around their family friends? They have a duty not to get raped? That seems to lend itself to victim-blaming. And on the discovery that the friend is benign, what about those rapes that occur by a long-trusted family member? Fathers, even?
On there being a high number of dodgy people - probably in King's Cross and train stations etc. But on any given day I'd bet big money that I wouldn't see a dodgy person if I walked 2.5 minutes away from my house and then back.
But it is fair to say that the streets aren't as safe at night, only a fool would say otherwise.
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Duty to not get raped? In a sense. We all have to be responsible for our own safety.
But whilst this premise is very close to victim-blaming, it isn't. As I said, we do need to take responsibility for our own safety yes, but that gives the rapist ZERO licence to rape you.
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Is this just me or has the aftermath of this awful tragedy been prolonged through the media?
In short:
-Yes she shouldn't have walked home alone late at night, but that does not give others (no stereotyping here) the right to exploit the situation.
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In short:
-Yes she shouldn't have walked home alone late at night, but that does not give others (no stereotyping here) the right to exploit the situation.
Pretty much.
But the problem was that some people in the public took it one step further and said "she was asking for it" or sth