ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: bully3000 on February 06, 2013, 09:49:40 pm
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If not, why not and what more could be done to make it more fair?
Does the system create injustice for thousands of VCE/international students wanting to pursue tertiary level education? etc....
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Interesting question. I would say yes.
Just wondering, how does it create injustice?? What specific thing are you referring to here?
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Do you think there is an injustice? are you comparing it to other educational systems?
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The whole "English must be in your top 4" things rubs me the wrong way, but I think that the system is pretty fair. I've heard that there are some flaws with ranking by bell curve, but I don't know too much about that.
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should be an english AND a maths required in your top 4, so the people who are good at english and not maths have to suffer like i do
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should be an english AND a maths required in your top 4, so the people who are good at english and not maths have to suffer like i do
LOL while that wouldn't affect me, that is kind of a bad, spiteful solution (funny though :P). It just makes things worse for some, and better for none.
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LOL while that wouldn't affect me, that is kind of a bad, spiteful solution (funny though :P). It just makes things worse for some, and better for none.
Completely right, that would make the system head in the wrong direction.
I do think it is kinda unfair to make english be in your top 4 but on the other hand it shouldnt change.
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English should definitely be a compulsory part of the primary 4. We live in a predominately English-speaking country, and people will need to be able to communicate complex ideas with coherency.
should be an english AND a maths required in your top 4, so the people who are good at english and not maths have to suffer like i do
I don't think Maths should be required. There are some people who I know did not choose a 3/4 Maths subject for Year 12, simply because they didn't really need it.
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I think it's pretty fair overall, I don't mind the compulsory English, I feel better knowing that more people are learning to read and write to a more advanced level.
I'm unsure of compulsory maths though. Most people will use the following maths in life: basic operations (used everywhere), percentages (shopping, tax, superannuation, etc), ratios (gambling), and that's honestly about it. In terms of English, sure you won't be needing to write text responses to Shakerz in later life (for most of us anyway), but it's all the analytic skills you gain from VCE English in addition to the cementing of reading and writing skills, all of which you'll be using all the time in later life.
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Interesting question. I would say yes.
Just wondering, how does it create injustice?? What specific thing are you referring to here?
By 'injustice' I meant the situation whereby some capable and hardworking students fall through the cracks.
For example, teachers putting down or neglecting hardworking students in a school where achievement levels may be low...
Furthermore, what if you are in a school whereby other students are too lazy to work hard but not lazy enough to distract their peers and refrain them from achieving academic success.
Or some teachers may steal SAC questions from a particular source (which may also be printed in the SACs) and knowing this the more motivated students may try to get hold of the solutions and then cheat for the rest of the year obtaining 100% in all the remaining the SACs.
I have also noticed some students listen to their ipod during the examination without invigilators taking them off. Students may be listening to music and dozing off thereby lower their entire cohorts SAC marks or they may listening to podcasts for reference to examination questions which they could use to unfairly score highly in exams. Either way it's unfair.
Furthermore, some students try to sabotage or conceal supporting material which may help their peers.
The VCE system, like everything in life, is filled with inequity. There is no pride in an unequal world.
There are also students from all sorts of backgrounds. People from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are automatically disadvantaged and people coming from Aboriginal/non-asian backgrounds may be disadvantaged. SEAS does some good, but many go to well off students who are only slightly 'disadvantaged'.
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By 'injustice' I meant the situation whereby some capable and hardworking students fall through the cracks.
For example, teachers putting down or neglecting hardworking students in a school where achievement levels may be low...
Furthermore, what if you are in a school whereby other students are too lazy to work hard but not lazy enough to distract their peers and refrain them from achieving academic success.
Or some teachers may steal SAC questions from a particular source (which may also be printed in the SACs) and knowing this the more motivated students may try to get hold of the solutions and then cheat for the rest of the year obtaining 100% in all the remaining the SACs.
I have also noticed some students listen to their ipod during the examination without invigilators taking them off. Students may be listening to music and dozing off thereby lower their entire cohorts SAC marks or they may listening to podcasts for reference to examination questions which they could use to unfairly score highly in exams. Either way it's unfair.
Furthermore, some students try to sabotage or conceal supporting material which may help their peers.
The VCE system, like everything in life, is filled with inequity. There is no pride in an unequal world.
There are also students from all sorts of backgrounds. People from lower socioeconomic backgrounds are automatically disadvantaged and people coming from Aboriginal/non-asian backgrounds may be disadvantaged. SEAS does some good, but many go to well off students who are only slightly 'disadvantaged'.
First of all the whole ipod thing is not - those people in charge are doing their job at all.
second of all people from socio-eco backgrounds, aboriginal etc. are given assitance its called SEAS which sometimess does allow them to get into course after vce. Anyway you need to have a real claim for SEAS not just anyone can't get.
Furthermore, some students try to sabotage or conceal supporting material which may help their peers.
This is not sabotage. Not everyone is willing to help others. you need to remember that this is still a competition between you and everyone else. You dont have to help others if you don't want if you believe its going to disadvantage yourself.
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bully3000, I'm confused.
Are you taking issue with the VCE system (or curriculum)? Or are you taking beef with slack teachers, selfish students, unmotivated students, etc.?
Because the two aren't the same.
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For example, teachers putting down or neglecting hardworking students in a school where achievement levels may be low...
That seems to be the fault of the teachers though, not from the VCE system.
Or some teachers may steal SAC questions from a particular source (which may also be printed in the SACs) and knowing this the more motivated students may try to get hold of the solutions and then cheat for the rest of the year obtaining 100% in all the remaining the SACs.
Again, that is the fault of teachers, not the system.
I have also noticed some students listen to their ipod during the examination without invigilators taking them off.
That shouldn't be happening in a VCAA supervised exam? It should actually be reported if it was. If it was during a SAC, the supervisors should have confiscated them. But again, you can't blame this injustice on the VCE system. Blame it on the supervisors who weren't doing their job.
Students may be listening to music and dozing off thereby lower their entire cohorts SAC marks or they may listening to podcasts for reference to examination questions which they could use to unfairly score highly in exams. Either way it's unfair.
Furthermore, some students try to sabotage or conceal supporting material which may help their peers.
I listened to podcasts for Biology last year, and the speaker made us aware of past examination questions as well? I don't see how getting references to past exam questions is unfair. I mean, entire past exams are on the VCAA site as well.
As for students who try conceal resources from other kids, that's just a dog act, but it has nothing to do with the VCE system? People at university have hidden textbooks from each other, or they keep borrowing them so that nobody gets their hand on them. It's not really exclusive to VCE alone.
SEAS does some good, but many go to well off students who are only slightly 'disadvantaged'.
This is very true though...
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bully3000, I'm confused.
Are you taking issue with the VCE system (or curriculum)? Or are you taking beef with slack teachers, selfish students, unmotivated students, etc.?
Because the two aren't the same.
Yeah it sounds like they are having a problem with slack teachers etc. not really the system as a whole.
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I listened to podcasts for Biology last year, and the speaker made us aware of past examination questions as well? I don't see how getting references to past exam questions is unfair. I mean, entire past exams are on the VCAA site as well.
No, I meant students listening to podcasts through their ipod while doing their exams.
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No, I meant students listening to podcasts through their ipod while doing their exams.
Let's be honest, that's not a problem with VCE, that's a problem with that school hiring shit invigilators and the school having a serious lack of discipline.
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No, I meant students listening to podcasts through their ipod while doing their exams.
Yeah...that should've been reported. But that's only occurred because the supervisors aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing.
When you're talking about injustice in the VCE system, you would mainly be talking about how it's marked on a bell curve, how scaling works for each subject, or something like that.
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Yeah it sounds like they are having a problem with slack teachers etc. not really the system as a whole.
Okay, fine.
I suppose it really is slack teachers and lazy students who can't study but can distract other students. The whole environment can be overwhelming. I'm sure any student can perform badly if they are going to a bad school long enough.
I'm just interested if you are an average student or a smart student going to very bad school, how can you still do well if you also don't have a conducive study environment at home as well.
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Okay, fine.
I suppose it really is slack teachers and lazy students who can't study but can distract other students. The whole environment can be overwhelming. I'm sure any student can perform badly if they are going to a bad school long enough.
I'm just interested if you are an average student or a smart student going to very bad school, how can you still do well if you also don't have a conducive study environment at home as well.
To be perfectly honest im not quite sure how to help you as I didnt have this problem. Hopefully someone else can help you out. :)
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should be an english AND a maths required in your top 4, so the people who are good at english and not maths have to suffer like i do
Even in math you need to be able to explain yourself in written english as you progress through your studies. However VCE English is garbage (more on this below).
Personally I think the system is fair. Not as fair as the tertiary system but considering the number of students and schools, the system seems "fair" to me. I previously subscribed to the notion that 'scaling was BS'. But I honestly think it's fair since subjects like spesh and languages are more competitive than further maths and IT Applications.
So my issue isn't with the fairness of the VCE system. It's to do with the quality. Allow me to elaborate.
Years 1-11 are a joke so most students don't study hard and then suddenly they meet the VCE 'A major cause of youth suicide'. Mainstream English is a waste of time where you can literally can buy and memorize essays. The 'essays' we're forced to write are formulaic based on outdated structures that have little in common with writing essays that will be read in life after school. English in VCE doesn't teach communication. It teaches useless drivel. Mainstream English needs to be re-designed.
Chemistry, Physics and Biology are a joke full of rote learning (just memorize a few dot points per syllabus dot point). Sciences are meant to be structured on problem-solving/critical-thinking bases not rote learning.
From what I've read on AN, this definitely doesn't apply to anyone on these boards (just random idiots I see on facebook). However, my other issue is with the number of VCE high achievers who charge people for tuition. VCE credentials don't correlate to better quality teaching or skills to convey ideas, motivate students, efficiency, etc.
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I think the flaws in the VCE can be summarised by compulsory English and government induced LOTE scaling. Both are government initiatives to encourage students to care about particular subjects, but both of them unfortunately create inequity from the get-go (for obvious reasons). Other than that, discrepant marking is a bit of an issue, and I know people will say it's the same for everyone, but if you get a discrepant mark that means one examiner was satisfied with your response, and one wasn't. So another student could've quite possibly had two examiners who were satisfied or two that weren't. The exam board really needs to be a bit more unified on what is and isn't acceptable.
Excluding those 3 things, a think what upsets a lot of people is that, their hard work does not yield equivalent results to the hard work of a child who had been encouraged from birth by his parents to play a musical instrument, go to Kumon or other additional tuition, attend a private school from preparatory through to Year 12 and have extensive, non-remedial tuition for the upper-year levels. When you get kids like that who are hard-working and compare their results to students whose socioeconomic situation forced them to have no access to elite tuition (of all kinds) and who weren't supported at all by their parents, you get grand inconsistencies in your results. Both students are hard-working, but one was encouraged/supported/nurtured much more than the other.
But none of that is a flaw of the VCE system, more so a consequence of the circumstances of one's birth, which are uncontrollable. But I can kind of understand why a lot of people get frustrated when they don't get the results they thought their hard work was equivalent to at the end of year 12.
After reading above I'd have to agree the VCE curriculum could do with a bit of a re-work, but an outdated, useless curriculum doesn't impact equity.
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I think the flaws in the VCE can be summarised by compulsory English and government induced LOTE scaling. Both are government initiatives to encourage students to care about particular subjects, but both of them unfortunately create inequity from the get-go (for obvious reasons). Other than that, discrepant marking is a bit of an issue, and I know people will say it's the same for everyone, but if you get a discrepant mark that means one examiner was satisfied with your response, and one wasn't. So another student could've quite possibly had two examiners who were satisfied or two that weren't. The exam board really needs to be a bit more unified on what is and isn't acceptable.
Excluding those 3 things, a think what upsets a lot of people is that, their hard work does not yield equivalent results to the hard work of a child who had been encouraged from birth by his parents to play a musical instrument, go to Kumon or other additional tuition, attend a private school from preparatory through to Year 12 and have extensive, non-remedial tuition for the upper-year levels. When you get kids like that who are hard-working and compare their results to students whose socioeconomic situation forced them to have no access to elite tuition (of all kinds) and who weren't supported at all by their parents, you get grand inconsistencies in your results. Both students are hard-working, but one was encouraged/supported/nurtured much more than the other.
But none of that is a flaw of the VCE system, more so a consequence of the circumstances of one's birth, which are uncontrollable. But I can kind of understand why a lot of people get frustrated when they don't get the results they thought their hard work was equivalent to at the end of year 12.
I know for a fact that most kids in my year and other years that did LOTE - either german or jap - said that the major or the sole reason they did it was for the extra scaling boost. This is one of the unfair things in vce - this is being completey abused. Im pretty sure each year german and jap scale by at least 8 or 9 or even more just because the government want more people knowing languages. I like the governments thinking but its being abused by people already admitting that they probs wont use it later in life.
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Okay, fine.
I suppose it really is slack teachers and lazy students who can't study but can distract other students. The whole environment can be overwhelming. I'm sure any student can perform badly if they are going to a bad school long enough.
I'm just interested if you are an average student or a smart student going to very bad school, how can you still do well if you also don't have a conducive study environment at home as well.
You're only limited to your own creativity. Home was a fucking shit place to do homework for me; at Mum's house I had my brother screaming at his Xbox "FUCKING HACKERS FOR FUCK SAKE OMG FUCKING HACKS BR0" - not exactly the best place to write essays. And yeah Dad's wasn't great either, I'd have to listen to my step Mum walking around the house and shit. Never had any study space, either. So yeah home study was a bitch. School was actually alright in class. My school used to be 'very bad' so I know what you're talking about fully, but I'm a very independent learner, I never really did much in class. I'd just kick back, relax, and wait til it was over so I could start doing my work. Simple solution, really - I just stayed at school until the cleaner kicked me out. Everyone rushed to get out of school as soon as the bell rang, so in ten minutes the school was deserted. Very quiet. Nice place to study. Otherwise you could just go to the library, go to a Macca's - I did this one semi-frequently, shit you could go to a local cafe and sit yourself down. If you have enough drive, you can do anything. It's just harder.
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You're only limited to your own creativity. Home was a fucking shit place to do homework for me; at Mum's house I had my brother screaming at his Xbox "FUCKING HACKERS FOR FUCK SAKE OMG FUCKING HACKS BR0" - not exactly the best place to write essays. And yeah Dad's wasn't great either, I'd have to listen to my step Mum walking around the house and shit. Never had any study space, either. So yeah home study was a bitch. School was actually alright in class. My school used to be 'very bad' so I know what you're talking about fully, but I'm a very independent learner, I never really did much in class. I'd just kick back, relax, and wait til it was over so I could start doing my work. Simple solution, really - I just stayed at school until the cleaner kicked me out. Everyone rushed to get out of school as soon as the bell rang, so in ten minutes the school was deserted. Very quiet. Nice place to study. Otherwise you could just go to the library, go to a Macca's - I did this one semi-frequently, shit you could go to a local cafe and sit yourself down. If you have enough drive, you can do anything. It's just harder.
What did/do your parents do for a living?
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You're only limited to your own creativity. Home was a fucking shit place to do homework for me; at Mum's house I had my brother screaming at his Xbox "FUCKING HACKERS FOR FUCK SAKE OMG FUCKING HACKS BR0" - not exactly the best place to write essays. And yeah Dad's wasn't great either, I'd have to listen to my step Mum walking around the house and shit. Never had any study space, either. So yeah home study was a bitch. School was actually alright in class. My school used to be 'very bad' so I know what you're talking about fully, but I'm a very independent learner, I never really did much in class. I'd just kick back, relax, and wait til it was over so I could start doing my work. Simple solution, really - I just stayed at school until the cleaner kicked me out. Everyone rushed to get out of school as soon as the bell rang, so in ten minutes the school was deserted. Very quiet. Nice place to study. Otherwise you could just go to the library, go to a Macca's - I did this one semi-frequently, shit you could go to a local cafe and sit yourself down. If you have enough drive, you can do anything. It's just harder.
This, +1.
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What did/do your parents do for a living?
My Mum works in welfare as a case-worker in a St. Kilda detox clinic and my Dad is a labourer.
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I know for a fact that most kids in my year and other years that did LOTE - either german or jap - said that the major or the sole reason they did it was for the extra scaling boost. This is one of the unfair things in vce - this is being completey abused. Im pretty sure each year german and jap scale by at least 8 or 9 or even more just because the government want more people knowing languages. I like the governments thinking but its being abused by people already admitting that they probs wont use it later in life.
Yes the Vic government does add +4 to each LOTE, but the rest of that 8 or 9 markup is due entirely to the strength of the cohort; so it's hardly right to say that languages scale so much 'just because the government want more people knowing languages'
I think the scaling is ok, but I still question how/why study scores should ever be >50
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I think the scaling is ok, but I still question how/why study scores should ever be >50
Well, to take an example, I don't think a person deserves the same scaled score if person A got a 50 raw in Further and person B got a 50 raw in Spesh, when the two subjects are miles and miles apart with the latter being much harder (on general consensus).
Having said that, I'd like to see more subjects scale above 50.
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Well, to take an example, I don't think a person deserves the same scaled score if person A got a 50 raw in Further and person B got a 50 raw in Spesh, when the two subjects are miles and miles apart with the latter being much harder (on general consensus).
Having said that, I'd like to see more subjects scale above 50.
What other subjects?
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What other subjects?
Going by what I said above, I think Methods should be scaled higher (maybe maxed at 52 or something?), possibly Lit (being the "higher" English). Not sure on others, but I'm sure there are others which could as well.