General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: spectroscopy on April 27, 2013, 11:12:22 am
Title: Being religious in todays society
Post by: spectroscopy on April 27, 2013, 11:12:22 am
I would like to start off by saying please don't turn this into a debate over religions, bag peoples beliefs, or argue against religion all together or try to disprove it, there are other threads for that, and if not, make one.
I just want to have a semi-rant here, and find out what other people who are religious' experiences are. So I'm a religious enough eastern orthodox christian, and whenever people see me wear a cross, or praying, or using a prayer rope or something, everyone looks at me funny (even though i make no big deal of it and try to be a discrete as possible). People always come up to me and say that "religion is stupid" and "haha there is no god youre an idiot" etc. I don't care if they have their own beliefs, that's fine, but whenever arguments erupt at school or something if you have a religion or if you're religious, everyone ostracizes you and you're treated like a leper. People always preach tolerance to gays and different races (me too) but how come if everyone promotes being politically correct for all those things, religion some how doesn't count? If you get frustrated at extremists or people on a massive conversion mission, i dont really mind, but if someone is minding their own business, is completely tolerant to people, but wears a kippah, its okay to straight up call them stupid? I don't think so. I don't see where our society went wrong, in primary school they said things like "colour doesnt matter" and "boys and girls are equal" but if you choose to believe in a higher power and practice that belief, a right every Australian has, society ostracizes you. I used to not care if people try to tell me my religion is dumb, but when an entire class gangs up on you and people are allowed to openly say "if your gods real how come this happens, he cant be real!" and teachers dont care, you start to get sick of people's shit.
Have any other religious people faced these problems? How do you handle it? Any opinions on how to handle it?
once again; please do not turn this into a debate about religions, religion over athiesm, or say "lol then stop believing" etc. That can be done in other threads and I would like one chance to openly talk about religion and the problems religious people(specifically young people) face in society these days.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: jeanweasley on April 27, 2013, 11:18:43 am
Well, this doesn't particularly happen at my school, but I do know that if you are religious, there seems to be that sort of vibe that you can't fit into modern society because religion is a thing of the old. I mean, it's not like I would be pushing my belief onto others but others seem to think that just because you're religious, it's okay to be questioned or put down because you believe in a God and they don't. I think it's just being used as a scapegoat, you know, because of extremists and events like terrorism, world suffering etc., that it's okay to assume that all religious observers are extremists and are the cause of destruction in modern society.
I'm sorry that you're in such a situation but I can't believe that your teachers won't say anything. You're being practically bullied!
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: walkec on April 27, 2013, 01:26:53 pm
I respect other people's religions, but I also witness the prejudices faced by those who are religious. I go to a catholic school, so the majority of the students are catholic. But there are also people of different faiths. Currently, we have Muslims, Jews, Russian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal Christian, Anglicans, Mormons, as well as ones I don't know of.
There are stereotypes that go with some religions that are present in the student population at my school. One of my really good friends is Mormon, and just the other day I heard one student ask another student what Mormons are. They replied with something even I consider to be stereotypically offensive because my friend tells me about the Mormon faith just so more people understand instead of judge. I'm not going to post what they said here, but I turned out and told them about the actual beliefs of the Mormon people, just to set the story straight.
Me, well I was baptised as a Catholic. I respect the traditional beliefs of the Catholic faith but I feel that I don't passionately believe in them, which is why I consider myself to be a non practicing Catholic. I don't see why I should practice a religion if I don't whole heartedly believe in it. I think that would be offensive to those who are practicing that religion because I'd be pretty much living a lie.
I really admire people who still keep up religion today. It's so good that you have something that means so much to you.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Eriny on April 27, 2013, 07:23:05 pm
I kind of get what you mean. Once, I was reading a leather-bound copy of Jane Eyre on the train and randoms would come up to me and ask me if I was reading the bible, and if so what was wrong with me. It was weird/confronting. Even if I was reading the bible, it's not anybody's business!
I think we are in a period of transition from religion being the dominant lens through which people understood their life to science becoming dominant. We're on the science end of the spectrum at the moment. Even though some religious folk are really horrible to scientists and some politicians refuse to 'believe' in climate science, generally science has a monopoly on what we consider to be sensible. It's a good thing, IMO, but also I think you can have religious beliefs and accept science (as long as you aren't a fundamentalist douche). This is probably why though you're finding things difficult, you have beliefs which fall outside the dominant way of thinking.
In general, I prefer to assume that someone has religious beliefs because they thought hard about it and are really looking to extend themselves spiritually. It's not my thing, but I know intelligent people who disagree with me on a whole bunch of issues, so I'm prepared to believe the same might be true for religion. Some people are obviously just brainwashed into it, but it's not everyone. I don't think it would even be the majority. There's more room for respect/tolerance when it comes to how others understand the world and their place in it. It sucks that you aren't getting respect.
At the same time, I guess you have to understand that a lot of people don't have very good experiences with organised religion. Religious education, particularly in the past, can be quite extreme and cruel. I was sent to church every week when I was young and got really scared by it - I thought I was going to hell. That kind of thing is really wrong and it doesn't scratch the surface of some of the horrible, violent and abusive things that leaders of organised religions have been responsible for. Some of the sanctimonious bullshit is really agitating too - the instant someone tries to shove a bible down my throat or harasses me at home or on the street about Jesus, or bans books or life-saving technologies, or otherwise tries to impose on important rights, I begin to have a problem with religion. I recognise that not everyone who believes in God is a jerk, far from it, but some people do have difficulty making the distinction and maybe that's part of the problem you're facing.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: grannysmith on April 27, 2013, 08:12:12 pm
I guess it has got to do with people stereotyping as well as generalising people because of their religion.
Just because the media portrays a group or persons as bad, it does not mean the religion is bad. In other words, the actions of some individuals do not speak for the majority.
Also, many people practice the religion, while at the same time other people condemn their actions. Both parties are human and they make mistakes, or sometimes, they just misinterpret. But it is the mean-spirited of these people that should not be tolerated.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Stick on April 27, 2013, 08:29:33 pm
As someone who is Roman Catholic and attends a very religious Catholic school, I personally think that the Church has a lot to answer for. A lot of the 'teachings' and widespread practices that go around today did not stem from God, Jesus or the Bible (let me remind you that the former two did not write this sacred text either) but rather derive from cultural/historical ideals that the Church decided to implement. If you don't believe me, then why is my religion, which supposedly prides itself on helping those who are less fortunate (although there are plenty of both historical and current circumstances which would suggest otherwise) keep unfathomable amounts of wealth locked up in vaults in the Vatican City? Some would say that my sense of doubt means that I'm 'playing God', but really it seems as if the Church is playing God here. Spirituality is a very individual thing and I'm not sure if it can be institutionalised. Bad experiences that often result for a lot of people is what's ultimately causing this sense of backlash.
Just for the record, I too would identify as a non-practicing Catholic. Sure, the basic principles and teachings are all there, but there's too much in the finer print which just causes me significant concern.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Lolly on April 27, 2013, 09:00:30 pm
Quote
Spirituality is a very individual thing and I'm not sure if it can be institutionalised. Bad experiences that often result for a lot of people is what's ultimately causing this sense of backlash.
Definitely. I can only speak from my own view, but studying Texts and Traditions has illuminated my views on institutionalised religion as you described it. :) It's this Pharisaic idea of morality; legalism and bureaucracy and hierarchy which is becoming increasingly irrelevant to today's society. I have noticed that our culture in general has diminishing respect for institutions - and fair enough. Jesus actually spent a lot of time criticising the Temple system as it existed in his time. Yet I'd like to point out that there's a key difference between an institution and a community.
This sense of detachedness in "institutions" as such, directly contrasts my own experience of church and faith, which has been one of warmth and family and community. My church is like a second home. My faith is the cornerstone of my life, although, it hasn't come without a lot of deep searching within myself and toying with some really hard questions. So, yes, I would concur with the notion that spirituality is a deeply personal aspect of life, and it isn't manifested in the strata of church or in the hoarding of wealth or the scramble to power.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Professor Polonsky on April 28, 2013, 01:17:40 am
Florian makes a very good point. While simply criticising someone for holding religious beliefs is wrong, the content of those beliefs is open to criticism. I'm not going to criticise you for reading the Bible (I very much have an interest in it, despite not believing in a deity of any sort). What I am going to criticise you for, however, are your ethical beliefs which stem from your religion. Since religious ideals influence many people's beliefs, they should be in any healthy society open for criticism and even attacks.
I think we are in a period of transition from religion being the dominant lens through which people understood their life to science becoming dominant. We're on the science end of the spectrum at the moment. Even though some religious folk are really horrible to scientists and some politicians refuse to 'believe' in climate science, generally science has a monopoly on what we consider to be sensible. It's a good thing, IMO, but also I think you can have religious beliefs and accept science (as long as you aren't a fundamentalist douche). This is probably why though you're finding things difficult, you have beliefs which fall outside the dominant way of thinking.
Oh I wish.
Quote from: Tony Abbott
The argument [behind climate change] is absolute crap. However, the politics of this are tough for us. Eighty per cent of people believe climate change is a real and present danger.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: BigAl on April 28, 2013, 03:11:14 am
I dont know if Christianity is open to criticism, but i do know that Islam is strictly against criticism. I've recently decided not to believe any deity although I was strictly brought up by muslim parents...then I started to criticise Islam and discuss it with my muslim friends...I havent received any good feedback..all my friends did was patching up the religion with what's told them. What makes me really annoying is the fact that religion always comes the first place and then nationality second. I see many people going to mosques and stuff..but none of them can even speak their parent's language. So in essence, I would say it is other way around for Islam, where you can't ask people why they are reading quran or why they are praying, those people will fight back...religious beliefs will exist fairly bit more in societies...and they must be open to criticism and attacks...but that's a big no for Islam Being religious in the islamic community makes your life easy, but if you have recently converted yourself from islam to something else, everybody will fight you...
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: brenden on April 28, 2013, 04:51:05 am
That's a really respectable/brave move, Al. Well done.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: grannysmith on April 28, 2013, 09:13:26 am
I dont know if Christianity is open to criticism, but i do know that Islam is strictly against criticism. I've recently decided not to believe any deity although I was strictly brought up by muslim parents...then I started to criticise Islam and discuss it with my muslim friends...I havent received any good feedback..all my friends did was patching up the religion with what's told them. What makes me really annoying is the fact that religion always comes the first place and then nationality second. I see many people going to mosques and stuff..but none of them can even speak their parent's language. So in essence, I would say it is other way around for Islam, where you can't ask people why they are reading quran or why they are praying, those people will fight back...religious beliefs will exist fairly bit more in societies...and they must be open to criticism and attacks...but that's a big no for Islam Being religious in the islamic community makes your life easy, but if you have recently converted yourself from islam to something else, everybody will fight you...
Islam as in the religion or Islam as in the people? Could you explain how they would fight back?
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Dayman on April 28, 2013, 10:56:00 am
I dont know if Christianity is open to criticism, but i do know that Islam is strictly against criticism. I've recently decided not to believe any deity although I was strictly brought up by muslim parents...then I started to criticise Islam and discuss it with my muslim friends...I havent received any good feedback..all my friends did was patching up the religion with what's told them. What makes me really annoying is the fact that religion always comes the first place and then nationality second. I see many people going to mosques and stuff..but none of them can even speak their parent's language. So in essence, I would say it is other way around for Islam, where you can't ask people why they are reading quran or why they are praying, those people will fight back...religious beliefs will exist fairly bit more in societies...and they must be open to criticism and attacks...but that's a big no for Islam Being religious in the islamic community makes your life easy, but if you have recently converted yourself from islam to something else, everybody will fight you...
I must admit I am religious muslim and I 100% agree with you. I mean asking questions has become a cultural taboo a sin even (not really exaggerating). I seriously do not know how people got to this. I mean questions were always welcome back in the prophets days.
But one of the greatest solutions to your or everyone's journey to enlightenment(any religion) is the Internet I mean you can get all your question and research done there without the judgement of your friends and families. I believe God wants you to reason and find the true path. Anyways that's all Fromm bye.
Ps don't look any bias sources that's built to attack other religion directly I usually go on forums of other religions .
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: alondouek on April 28, 2013, 11:54:33 am
As a Jew, I've definitely had some conflicting experiences, but they've definitely been more internal than external. I haven't really been affected by any anti-Semitism (the only time this occurred, I was able to initiate a discussion with the person and hopefully changed their preconceived notions about Jewish people), but there's definitely a subtle mindset within the community of persecution, especially when a member of the community does something illegal or downright disgusting. I find this disturbing - both that the actions of a few members of the community can have a effect on the mentality of the whole, and that in today's age, in a comparatively liberal country like Australia, we're still maintaining that paranoid mindset that was even more prevalent in European and to an extent Middle-Eastern communities over the past few centuries.
Personally, I consider myself an Agnostic Theist - I 'believe' in God (but I believe that to state that God 'exists' is contrary to the Jewish interpretation of what God 'is', but that's another discussion), but I'm certain that no empirical or falsifiable evidence either for or against God's 'existence', hence I feel that any serious discussion or debate as to the 'existence' of God is moot. Regardless of this, I'm still a practicing Modern-Orthodox Jew.
Regarding OP's point; I do believe that religion often has a negative stigma attached to it today. It's seen as being contrary to the progressiveness, as well as the fundamental evidence-based nature, of science. However, as someone who is both religious and studying the sciences, I see no conflict whatsoever - in Judaism, or at least in the interpretation I was brought up with, learning is encouraged regardless of its nature and to fail to question everything, both in the secular and Jewish studies, is to have missed the point of learning. I guess in that sense I don't find it difficult to be religious in today's world - rather I feel more comfortable today knowing that I can fulfil both my religious and my secular duties without them being in conflict with one another.
I also believe that the most damaging people to any religion are the zealous, ultra-religious factions or individuals. In Judaism, many of the Ultra-Orthodox communities isolate themselves from the outside world, they (in my opinion) mistreat their women and they are often radical. This is an example of the radical ultra-religious groups I'm talking about.. These people do, and will do, so much more damage to religion that any atheist could - they denigrate their religion in the eyes of God, other less radical members of their religion, and the general population.
P.S. Florian and Alex, I'm amazed and extremely happy you called it a kippah instead of some crazy Yiddish word :D.
Sorry for the rant, OP - I'm pretty sure I went off topic a few times - but I have so much to say about this that I couldn't even begin to put it all in one post.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: BigAl on April 28, 2013, 12:40:33 pm
It's a little tricky to explain :P. In Judaism, God is not considered an earthly concept, let alone a 'being'. It's a little difficult to describe, because we consider God to either 'exist' in a reality separate to our own, or outside of reality itself. There are a number of Middle-Ages Kabbalistic writings that ponder the nature of reality in the context of God - essentially (and I'm editorialising for the sake of brevity) one of the questions it poses is that if God is the 'supreme notion' then by proxy, the medium in which God 'exists' - which we consider to be beyond earthly understanding and the human perception of what is - is the true reality. As such, what are we experiencing right now? How do we explain reality when it is held up to the concept of God?
As you can see, Kabbalistic thought delves very much into the metaphysical (spiritual texts such as the Zohar expound upon this). Here is the wikipedia article of the Zohar; it contains thought and concepts that I, personally, find magnificent.
On a side note, concepts like this demonstrate some interesting divergences between Semitic religions like Judaism and Christianity: Christians (or so I understand it) believe that Jesus was the earthly manifestation of the divine spirit - but this is incompatible with the Jewish notion of divine perfection (which states that God cannot be remotely Earthly as per the assumed 'nature' of God). A further distinction is the Christian notion of good and evil versus the Jewish interpretation; in Christianity, Satan is the diametric opposite of God's divinity, and has control over 'hell'. Conversely in Judaism, Satan/Sataniel is simply another angel who embodies temptation and brings forth the sins of one's life in the Heavenly Court (it is vital to understand that in Judaism, angels have no free will whatsoever; hence, 'Satan' cannot embody what is not a Godly concept - i.e. evil is simply part of the reality we exist in). Judaism also has no concept of hell.
A further area of extreme interest is the concept of Free Will in Judaism. As God is considered omnipotent, how is it that humanity can have free will? Here is one of the Judaic explanations.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Professor Polonsky on April 28, 2013, 02:51:22 pm
I also believe that the most damaging people to any religion are the zealous, ultra-religious factions or individuals. In Judaism, many of the Ultra-Orthodox communities isolate themselves from the outside world, they (in my opinion) mistreat their women and they are often radical. This is an example of the radical ultra-religious groups I'm talking about.. These people do, and will do, so much more damage to religion that any atheist could - they denigrate their religion in the eyes of God, other less radical members of their religion, and the general population.
To be honest, I'd refer to the entire Haredi community as a dangerous cult. The Sikrikim might be particularly offensive, but that whole population has no place in today's society.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: JellyDonut on April 29, 2013, 11:37:43 am
I would like to start off by saying please don't turn this into a debate over religions, bag peoples beliefs, or argue against religion all together or try to disprove it, there are other threads for that, and if not, make one.
People always come up to me and say that "religion is stupid" and "haha there is no god youre an idiot" etc.
We just call those people assholes. If you know them, dont hang around them if they cant tolerate an important part of what makes you....you. If you don't know them, ignore them or tell them to mind their own #$@!@# business.
I don't care if they have their own beliefs, that's fine, but whenever arguments erupt at school or something if you have a religion or if you're religious, everyone ostracizes you and you're treated like a leper.
It's just people being people. In some places, being an atheist will get you that. In other places, being on the left of politics or the right of politics (in a university especially) might just get you that.
People always preach tolerance to gays and different races (me too) but how come if everyone promotes being politically correct for all those things, religion some how doesn't count?
Probably because people see it as a choice and in most peoples minds, a free choice is fair game.
but if you choose to believe in a higher power and practice that belief, a right every Australian has, society ostracizes you.
I don't know if this is true, it may *feel* true but whether it is actually true of wider Australian society is another thing. We're largely a secular (note, not atheistic necessarily) bunch. We're also in some ways a private bunch, this is just one thing that stays in the private sphere, thats the feel i get out of it in Australian society anyway. A lot of people are fine with you practicing x but dont wake them up on a sunday and bash on their door or talk about it over the water-cooler.
Also note a lot of people can be massive dicks in highschool. I was an atheist, as in identified as one, ever since about year 7 or 8 but i was a bit of a dick about it. If you asked me to give a really rigorous (or even half decent) philosophical defense of it though, i could not pull it off for the life of me. This may be true of a lot of kids in highschool, for beliefs in anything (not just religion).
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Yitzi_K on July 03, 2013, 10:49:46 pm
True, but that's more of a reflection on today's society than the Chareidim.
Hugely disagree. A lot of the way that chareidi populations around the world (i.e. Meah Shearim, Brooklyn, Melbourne) behave is incompatible with the egalitarianism and progressive morality of modern society. No-one (or at least no reasonable person) minds if chareidim practice their form of Judaism, but people outside the community shouldn't have to suffer as a result of it (e.g. throwing stones at cars on Shabbat in Meah Shearim, the whole Beit Shemesh girl's school fiasco, covering up of sexual abuse within the community etc. etc.)
All of these things are an indictment on vocal, extremist groups of chareidim, not on modern society in the slightest.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Thu Thu Train on July 03, 2013, 11:09:08 pm
Yitzi's world, or where it's society's fault for not accommodating religious fanatics.
"Society" today believes in moral decadence and hedonistic indulgence, whereas Chareidim believe in devoting every facet of one's life to the One who gives us life. Those are certainly incompatible, but I know which group I prefer to be in. As for the crazies who throw stones and spit at girls, they are just that - crazies. Not one single legitimate Charedi halachic authority gives them any backing, so using them to judge Charedi society is much like saying that all of Australia has no place in today's society because of the 4 idiots on Facebook who posted stuff about Ed Husic swearing on the koran.
Oh, and hello enwiabe, I'm at home now for a while so I thought I'd come and stir up some trouble ;)
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Thu Thu Train on July 05, 2013, 12:10:01 am
"Society" today believes in moral decadence and hedonistic indulgence, whereas Chareidim believe in devoting every facet of one's life to the One who gives us life. Those are certainly incompatible, but I know which group I prefer to be in. As for the crazies who throw stones and spit at girls, they are just that - crazies. Not one single legitimate Charedi halachic authority gives them any backing, so using them to judge Charedi society is much like saying that all of Australia has no place in today's society because of the 4 idiots on Facebook who posted stuff about Ed Husic swearing on the koran.
Oh, and hello enwiabe, I'm at home now for a while so I thought I'd come and stir up some trouble ;)
Can you give examples of 'moral decadence' and 'hedonistic indulgence'. I'd say that Society believes in freedom of being and religion/rules in 3000 year old book shouldn't dictate what people do with their bodies. Do you mean that things like Alcohol and Strip Clubs and societies love of casual drug use as decadence? I would argue against that. People are free to do what they want with their bodies. and that moral decadence is objective and depends on the person who is deciding what is decandece nad what is not. If I want to ingest alcohol in my body I'm not going to listen to a 3000 year old book which says not to. It is my choice and the new testament pretty much ruins the torah.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: pterozachtyl on July 05, 2013, 10:43:07 am
I go to a Catholic school in rural Victoria, and people get made fun of for openly believing in God. It's strange, considering the nature of the school, but a majority (probably 80%) of my fellow students are either atheists or agnostics.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Yitzi_K on July 07, 2013, 09:47:53 am
People are free to do what they want with their bodies.
Incorrect. G-d gave us our bodies, and He will take them away from us, and in the meantime He has given us specific instructions as to how to use them. Just remember, G-d gives you the ability to walk. Tomorrow, He may deny you that ability.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: enwiabe on July 07, 2013, 01:50:34 pm
Incorrect. G-d gave us our bodies, and He will take them away from us, and in the meantime He has given us specific instructions as to how to use them. Just remember, G-d gives you the ability to walk. Tomorrow, He may deny you that ability.
I find it gravely offensive that you assume this "G-d" character (what a pretentious name, too, what is he? voldemort?) gave me my body. It is a simple fact in my mind that the magical jellyfish at the bottom of the volcano that destroyed Pompeii gave me my body. How dare you simply assume!
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Thu Thu Train on July 08, 2013, 10:43:24 pm
Incorrect. G-d gave us our bodies, and He will take them away from us, and in the meantime He has given us specific instructions as to how to use them. Just remember, G-d gives you the ability to walk. Tomorrow, He may deny you that ability.
He gave nature the ability to create and form a body for us. Do you believe he sits around all day and gives us every new fertilised egg a body? If God exists I don't think he has a lot of involvement in our day to day lives. We are free to choose what we do with our bodies which is why he has given us the choice to live our lives as we please. He isn't going to just take away someone's ability to walk because they drank or smoked or didn't look both ways when they crossed the road.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Yitzi_K on July 09, 2013, 12:36:13 am
Do you believe he sits around all day and gives us every new fertilised egg a body?
Yes. Nothing exists or happened without His direct involvement. Every time you draw breath, it's because G-d enabled you to draw that breath, independent of any other breath you ever drew.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: alondouek on July 09, 2013, 12:44:11 am
Every time you draw breath, it's because G-d enabled you to draw that breath, independent of any other breath you ever drew.
>Muscular contractions expand chest cavity >Pressure difference created between external environment and chest cavity >Air flows into lungs to achieve equilibrium >Equilibrium shift leads to expulsion of air/CO2 >Cycle repeats
i.e. completely dependent on "any other breath", notably absent of direct deistic influence.
Scienced.
As a Modern Orthodox Jew, you're making us look bad. It's ridiculous to pin everything down as 'God this' or 'God that'.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: enwiabe on July 09, 2013, 01:02:07 am
>Muscular contractions expand chest cavity >Pressure difference created between external environment and chest cavity >Air flows into lungs to achieve equilibrium >Equilibrium shift leads to expulsion of air/CO2 >Cycle repeats
i.e. completely dependent on "any other breath", notably absent of direct deistic influence.
Scienced.
As a Modern Orthodox Jew, you're making us look bad. It's ridiculous to pin everything down as 'God this' or 'God that'.
You should get Yitzi to tell you about how the Toi-reh is the only science textbook anyone needs and has every Scientific theory contained within it!
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Yitzi_K on July 09, 2013, 01:33:00 am
As a Modern Orthodox Jew, you're making us look bad. It's ridiculous to pin everything down as 'God this' or 'God that'.
I'm afraid if you don't believe what I wrote that would make you a kofer ba'ikar. The gemara says (I forget where, I can find it for you if you want) that 'a person does not bend his finger down below unless it was decreed upon him from above'.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Yitzi_K on July 09, 2013, 01:34:49 am
I'm afraid if you don't believe what I wrote that would make you a kofer ba'ikar. The gemara says (I forget where, I can find it for you if you want) that 'a person does not bend his finger down below unless it was decreed upon him from above'.
I assume you're talking about 'ein adam kofef ezbah, ele im ken machrizim alav min hashamayim'? That's just another example of a rabbinic means of suppression of the population.
You are ultimately advocating that there is no בחירה חפשית (free will, for those who are confused) and that everything is predetermined? So you are contesting the opinions of Saadia Gaon in the אמונות ודעות, the Ralbag and Yehuda HaLevi, Yeshaya Horowitz and the Rabad - which really doesn't put you in a good position for argument.
There's really no use trying to throw rabbinic sources at my when I can do exactly the same. Come back with some empirical evidence (or actual points of discussion at the very least) and we can talk. Until then, consider laying off the fundamentalist polemics.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: enwiabe on July 09, 2013, 02:16:47 am
It's not me, it's the Ramban (hakdamah to peirush al ha'Torah) and the Vilna Gaon (peirush to Sifra de'tzniusa ch.5) among others.
If only I could bring myself to let bronze age philosophers dictate my life. It'd be so simple. I'd just follow every little thing they told me to do! I wish I didn't know how to think for myself.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Thu Thu Train on July 09, 2013, 10:57:57 am
I'm afraid if you don't believe what I wrote that would make you a kofer ba'ikar. The gemara says (I forget where, I can find it for you if you want) that 'a person does not bend his finger down below unless it was decreed upon him from above'.
So a person does not drink alcohol or indulge in sinful acts unless decreed upon by God?
You're also saying that people have no free will? I don't understand how you can argue society is self-indulgent when it is willed upon us by God to be self-indulgent according to your arguments that nothing happens without involvement from God.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Lolly on July 09, 2013, 05:02:17 pm
*grabs popcorn*
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Thu Thu Train on July 09, 2013, 06:26:22 pm
>Muscular contractions expand chest cavity >Pressure difference created between external environment and chest cavity >Air flows into lungs to achieve equilibrium >Equilibrium shift leads to expulsion of air/CO2 >Cycle repeats
i.e. completely dependent on "any other breath", notably absent of direct deistic influence.
Scienced.
As a Modern Orthodox Jew, you're making us look bad. It's ridiculous to pin everything down as 'God this' or 'God that'.
This is my favourite thing I have ever seen on this site. *claps*
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: Yitzi_K on July 09, 2013, 09:48:56 pm
So a person does not drink alcohol or indulge in sinful acts unless decreed upon by God?
You're also saying that people have no free will? I don't understand how you can argue society is self-indulgent when it is willed upon us by God to be self-indulgent according to your arguments that nothing happens without involvement from God.
No I'm not saying we don't have free will. Of course we have free will. The question of how can it be that G-d is in control of everything and knows the future and we can also have free will has been addressed by scholars through the ages and is way beyond the scope of an internet discussion.
This is my favourite thing I have ever seen on this site. *claps*
He didn't actually prove anything. True, that's the way breathing works. But it only works because G-d makes it work, if He chose not to for even one moment the process would simply... stop.
Title: Re: Being religious in todays society
Post by: EvangelionZeta on July 09, 2013, 09:51:49 pm
True, that's the way breathing works. But it only works because G-d makes it work, if He chose not to for even one moment the process would simply... stop.
this is a really late reply but I love religious debates so I'm wondering, if your god is so perfect, how come he failed to make a universe which could operate independently from him. It seems he would be closer to perfection if we could breathe without him needing to focus on us to make it happen. But then I guess if he was capable of that, there really wouldn't be any need for him in the present because nature seems to be handling itself fairly well.
Also the whole 'g-d' thing was one of the reasons I became an atheist, because I realised that different people had different ideas about what was required to avoid hell (such as avoiding the entire spelling of 'god'), then I thought it would be pretty ridiculous for people to be sent to hell on trivial technicalities like that, and then I realised that pretty much all the sins that weren't technicalities were basically common sense (excluding stuff like homosexuality obviously) and I wouldn't commit them due to fear of my own guilt. So I just decided I didn't need moral guidance, and even if there is a god, he gave me rational thought for a reason and wouldn't want me wasting it on faith in a a god whom there is no evidence for. And yes I'm procrastinating