ATAR Notes: Forum
VCE Stuff => Victorian Education Discussion => Topic started by: Vermilliona on December 17, 2013, 11:34:02 pm
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Thought it was time for a predictable 'perfect atar' questions thread. I know it's just a number, most courses don't need it, you can be pressured into doing a course you didn't want to do because you feel like you don't want to waste you atar, etc, but I really want to evaluate how valuable a 99.90/5 is, so if anyone's willing to answer any of these questions, I'd be very grateful:
1) At that level, does the difference between 99.85 and 99.90 come down to luck?
2) Do many universities offer scholarships for anything less but this score? Especially residential options (except disadvantage scholarships and etc).
3) Those who did get it, in what parts do you think it came down to natural ability, hard work and luck? (like 3/4 hard work etc)
4) What opportunities does it open up, and are these opportunities worth the amount of work that goes into this score?
5) Basically, should I make it my aim for next year? I suppose most people who do so are disappointed in the end. (I'm almost definitely going into MelbArts, but maybe Monash Arts/Law)
Any advice/thoughts/angry rants about how it's not worth the hassle and there's too much hype around it would be greatly appreciated :)
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1) i would say yes to an extent. a lot of the people who get between 99.7-99.9 are generally as talented as eachother. but there are people who are just THAT good, such as one forumite here who shall remain nameless but im sure they are notorious enough for you to know who lol. to give you an idea though, i was 1.6 aggregate point away from 99.9, and i think this boiled down to my english mark which i feel a little bit hard done by given i dedicated so much of my time to it and was ranked fairly high (1st or 2nd).
2) i was offered an excellence scholarship at monash and i think 99.80 is the benchmark for it.
4) i would say yes, to an extent. for me getting a 99.9 for the biomed chancellors program at melbourne wouldve provided me with that guarantee in terms of post-grad med, and thats one of the reasons i was pushing for it. there are other benefits to the program; i think you get a 5000$ bursary but im not 100%. for me the most important benefit was the guarantee so i didnt focus on much else.
5) you are right, there are people who end up dissappointed (like me lol), but there are other options depending on what you want to do. i say only make it your aim if it is a realistic one; know that you are capable - this means that you should probably get a good feel of where youre at in year 12 (probably around mid year like it was for me; it can be different though from person to person). if you do end up aiming for it, try not to be so uptight about it. what i mean by that is try to avoid going so hard for it that you almost expect it come results day (which sort of happened to me in a sense) because it does get tricky at such a high end.
i hope this helped and im sure that ive missed some other important points which others may be able to point out.
good luck for next year
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Hi, I got a 99.90 this year, I thought I'd have a go answering.
1) Yes, pretty much. Often underestimated is how crucial English is to the ATAR. One student at my school had a 50 as his 5th subject yet still only got a 99.65 due to his (relatively) low English score. Another of my friends got a 47 in English and three other scores at 50 or above and still only received 99.85. There is a lot of luck that is involved. However, if you can score over 45 in both specialist maths and a high scaling language then that does eliminate some of the luck involved.
2) Yes, Monash offers 40 excellence scholarships for those who receive 99.85 and below, and I think a 99.7 or so guarantees you one of these, but it really depends on the demand for places.
3) To be honest, natural ability does play a very large role in the ATAR, and at the risk of sounding arrogant, I definitely did not work as hard as some people at my school this year. However, there is a difference between working hard and working smart, and I think that is crucial. I'm not a humanities person, I've been good at English throughout school, but in Year 11 I only managed a B+ on both semester exams which had me doubting myself a fair bit. And I did find studying for English quite difficult and strenuous compared to doing a practice exam for physics or maths. Miraculously I ended up with a 50, but I still believe there were some at my school that deserved it far more, and I feel I got a bit lucky in that regard.
4) Well it's torn me between monash and melbourne now that the financial offer from melbourne is very tempting :p. Not having experienced these opportunities, it's hard to really say. However, my day yesterday was very enjoyable, moving between breakfast, melbourne uni's lunch, school, and the afternoon at monash with my friends was truly quite special and a great way to finish my whole education, and I feel that even yesterday would have sufficed as a reward for my score, let alone the university offers. Yes, I do think these opportunities are worth far more than the amount of work than I personally put in for VCE.
5) I'm not sure about this one, I can only begin to estimate, but I truly believe that only a handful of people (maybe 10?) can truly lock down a score above 99.90 before the end of the year, and for the rest that are lucky enough to receive this score, it was simply a result of good fortune, and that there certainly are many others just as deserving of it. So I'd caution against it, and say that if you think you're capable of it, then you probably are, but I'd hazard against making specific goals.
I can imagine that if it becomes your sole focus for the entire year there is a chance that your heart will be broken. My advice for year 12 is to simply enjoy it, work hard, and hopefully you'll be rewarded at the end.
And yes, I do think it's overhyped.
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1) At that level, does the difference between 99.85 and 99.90 come down to luck?
I'm not entirely sure how best to answer this question, but there is certainly a lot of luck involved. The difference between, say, a 47 and a 50 is, in actuality, negligible, especially in the field of humanities, where markedly different conceptions of the good exist. Your study score for a subject like English depends, in no small measure, on how your marker is feeling whilst he or she is marking your paper, and whether or not your writing style is to his or her taste. I know VCAA implements an array of measures in an attempt to reduce subjectivity, but the system is not infallible.
2) Do many universities offer scholarships for anything less but this score? Especially residential options (except disadvantage scholarships and etc).
As people have mentioned above, Monash offers a whole range of scholarships. You do not have to get 99.90+ to get a scholarship from Monash. Unfortunately, however, this is not the case with Melbourne. Unless you are eligible for SEAS, if you don't get 99.90+, the chances of you getting a scholarship will be very slim.
3) Those who did get it, in what parts do you think it came down to natural ability, hard work and luck? (like 3/4 hard work etc)
As much as the term is bandied about, I don't believe there is such a thing as 'natural ability'. When people say a student is 'naturally talented', they usually mean that the student is very quick at understanding things and absorbing new material. But this skill, if you will, is, IMO, not acquired from birth but acquired through habituation. Those who have been exposed to certain things which so happen to pertain to a particular subject area will inevitably find that subject area easy. For example, students who have been exposed to the history of an array of countries from an early age will inevitably find history easy, since they will inevitably be more able to draw certain historical links in their heads and make sense of evidence presented before them. It is not as if certain humans were born with special 'capacities' already ingrained in their minds. I subscribe to the tabula rasa doctrine; we are not born with any mental objects (I'm using this term as a technical term).
Anyway, I digress. If we were to take 'natural ability' to mean 'the product of targeted habituation', then I think that hard work is, by far, the most significant of the three you mentioned above. VCE tests are NOT intelligence tests. The students who get the highest scores are, by no means, the smartest students, if we were to take 'smart' to mean something along the lines of 'perspicacious'; they are simply the students who know the syllabus most thoroughly. Of course, in order to gain a thorough understanding of the syllabi set by the VCAA, students need to work hard and put in the hours. Although 'targeted habituation' may help to speed up the learning process (if the student is lucky), in the context of VCE, it is never enough to carry the day.
4) What opportunities does it open up, and are these opportunities worth the amount of work that goes into this score?
Yes. And yes. The scholarships you get offered for scoring 99.90+ come with a whole array of perks, which you can look up for yourself on the Monash and Melbourne University websites. The hard work definitely pays off. I had a friend who literally slept for an average of 5 hours a day. Although I definitely do not suggest that you do this (health is more important), but it all paid off in the end, because getting that sort of ATAR opens pretty much all the doors available to be opened (some unis take into consideration UMAT scores, etc. but yeah...)
5) Basically, should I make it my aim for next year? I suppose most people who do so are disappointed in the end. (I'm almost definitely going into MelbArts, but maybe Monash Arts/Law)
I'd definitely suggest that you make it your aim for next year if you believe that you have the ability to achieve it. As they say, always better to aim high and fall amongst the stars than to aim low and end up a mere 3 steps higher than your aim.
One last thing. While it is good to work hard, don't lose sight of everything else in life. Your ATAR is literally NOTHING MORE than a ticket to tertiary education. Getting a high ATAR simply means getting a more versatile key. That is all. You should not treat your ATAR as though it were your life. Try to maintain something that resembles a social life, and continue with all or most of the extra-curricular activities you have been participating in before year 12. You don't want to walk away with any regrets.
Hope this helps and good luck!
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1) At that level, does the difference between 99.85 and 99.90 come down to luck?
I'm not entirely sure how best to answer this question, but there is certainly a lot of luck involved. The difference between, say, a 47 and a 50 is, in actuality, negligible, especially in the field of humanities, where markedly different conceptions of the good exist. Your study score for a subject like English depends, in no small measure, on how your marker is feeling whilst he or she is marking your paper, and whether or not your writing style is to his or her taste. I know VCAA implements an array of measures in an attempt to reduce subjectivity, but the system is not infallible.
2) Do many universities offer scholarships for anything less but this score? Especially residential options (except disadvantage scholarships and etc).
As people have mentioned above, Monash offers a whole range of scholarships. You do not have to get 99.90+ to get a scholarship from Monash. Unfortunately, however, this is not the case with Melbourne. Unless you are eligible for SEAS, if you don't get 99.90+, the chances of you getting a scholarship will be very slim.
3) Those who did get it, in what parts do you think it came down to natural ability, hard work and luck? (like 3/4 hard work etc)
As much as the term is bandied about, I don't believe there is such a thing as 'natural ability'. When people say a student is 'naturally talented', they usually mean that the student is very quick at understanding things and absorbing new material. But this skill, if you will, is, IMO, not acquired from birth but acquired through habituation. Those who have been exposed to certain things which so happen to pertain to a particular subject area will inevitably find that subject area easy. For example, students who have been exposed to the history of an array of countries from an early age will inevitably find history easy, since they will inevitably be more able to draw certain historical links in their heads and make sense of evidence presented before them. It is not as if certain humans were born with special 'capacities' already ingrained in their minds. I subscribe to the tabula rasa doctrine; we are not born with any mental objects (I'm using this term as a technical term).
Anyway, I digress. If we were to take 'natural ability' to mean 'the product of targeted habituation', then I think that hard work is, by far, the most significant of the three you mentioned above. VCE tests are NOT intelligence tests. The students who get the highest scores are, by no means, the smartest students, if we were to take 'smart' to mean something along the lines of 'perspicacious'; they are simply the students who know the syllabus most thoroughly. Of course, in order to gain a thorough understanding of the syllabi set by the VCAA, students need to work hard and put in the hours. Although 'targeted habituation' may help to speed up the learning process (if the student is lucky), in the context of VCE, it is never enough to carry the day.
4) What opportunities does it open up, and are these opportunities worth the amount of work that goes into this score?
Yes. And yes. The scholarships you get offered for scoring 99.90+ come with a whole array of perks, which you can look up for yourself on the Monash and Melbourne University websites. The hard work definitely pays off. I had a friend who literally slept for an average of 5 hours a day. Although I definitely do not suggest that you do this (health is more important), but it all paid off in the end, because getting that sort of ATAR opens pretty much all the doors available to be opened (some unis take into consideration UMAT scores, etc. but yeah...)
5) Basically, should I make it my aim for next year? I suppose most people who do so are disappointed in the end. (I'm almost definitely going into MelbArts, but maybe Monash Arts/Law)
I'd definitely suggest that you make it your aim for next year if you believe that you have the ability to achieve it. As they say, always better to aim high and fall amongst the stars than to aim low and end up a mere 3 steps higher than your aim.
One last thing. While it is good to work hard, don't lose sight of everything else in life. Your ATAR is literally NOTHING MORE than a ticket to tertiary education. Getting a high ATAR simply means getting a more versatile key. That is all. You should not treat your ATAR as though it were your life. Try to maintain something that resembles a social life, and continue with all or most of the extra-curricular activities you have been participating in before year 12. You don't want to walk away with any regrets.
Hope this helps and good luck!
This is a really good post brightsky.
You are an ornament to this forum.
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Thank you to everyone who has replied here ! Its helpful to all of us(:
& congratulations on such amazing results !
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Argh, how come I only noticed this thread now? >_< I think the above posters have essentially said what I would have said, but I'd also like to add this:
Basically, you have to want those high scores. Not just the passive "Oh, I want a high ATAR," but a really strong and passionate inner desire to achieve those amazing results. You have to want to slave away at your desk for several hours each night, you have to want to have no life (or not much of a life - it's still important you socialise a bit) for a whole year, you have to want the gruelling journey that is ahead of you, and you have to want these more than anything you've ever wanted before. More than any material gift that you've really yearned for for a long time, for example. More than you want to go out and have a good time every weekend. More than $20 million, a sexy sports car and a luxurious mansion on the coast of Monte Carlo. :P That's how much you have to want it. If you can get your head in that mindset, everything else will follow. The study habits, the time management... it will all come to you. Deep down, you'll figure out exactly what you'll need to do in order to succeed. I've finally realised that VCE is a really personal journey and so me dispensing specific advice about how to go about subjects and studying would be futile. For example, in the two subjects I scored perfect study scores for, I took incredibly different approaches to most other students who got 50s in these subjects. I believe that this is the ultimate key to success. This doesn't necessarily mean that you'll get those scores you've always wanted, but you'll know deep down that you've done your absolute best and that you would change very little (or nothing) if you got the opportunity to do it again.
Not to play myself down or anything but I didn't come from an educational environment that was overly conducive to achieving high results. However, if you have the drive to succeed, it will happen, and it will happen anywhere. :)
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Thought it was time for a predictable 'perfect atar' questions thread. I know it's just a number, most courses don't need it, you can be pressured into doing a course you didn't want to do because you feel like you don't want to waste you atar, etc, but I really want to evaluate how valuable a 99.90/5 is, so if anyone's willing to answer any of these questions, I'd be very grateful:
1) At that level, does the difference between 99.85 and 99.90 come down to luck?
2) Do many universities offer scholarships for anything less but this score? Especially residential options (except disadvantage scholarships and etc).
3) Those who did get it, in what parts do you think it came down to natural ability, hard work and luck? (like 3/4 hard work etc)
4) What opportunities does it open up, and are these opportunities worth the amount of work that goes into this score?
5) Basically, should I make it my aim for next year? I suppose most people who do so are disappointed in the end. (I'm almost definitely going into MelbArts, but maybe Monash Arts/Law)
Any advice/thoughts/angry rants about how it's not worth the hassle and there's too much hype around it would be greatly appreciated :)
1) I agree with the reply above that the importance of English is underestimated. From my school, there was a student who got 49s in physics, methods and spesh this year, but he only got a 99.90 due to his 44 in English. Then, couple this with Brightsky's observation about the subjectivity of English exam marking, and you can see there is certainly an element of luck to getting a 99.90+ score. I've always said that getting a 50 in an English subject brings you half way there to getting a 99.95.
However, as has been pointed out, doing well in spesh and a language, similar to what I pulled off, helps with this. A friend of mine got a 99.95 with a 42 in Literature because he got a 48 in French, 44 in spesh and a 39 in Latin; the scaling just brought him over the line for a 99.95. Another element of luck is the 99.90/95 cutoff for the year. This year, the cutoffs happened to be higher, so it was harder to get those scores.
2) I'm not the best person to answer this; I only know of Monash scholarships that are given below 99.90.
3) I must disagree, to some extent, with the above comment that 99.90+ students aren't necessarily the most intelligent. Sure, each VCE exam isn't a great test of intelligence, but each student has to complete several exams over the course of their VCE career. I doubt people can earn 99.90+ ATARs without possessing some level of intelligence, unless they've worked hard for longer (like me; I got two 3/4s out of the way before I got to year 11), because consistently performing to a high level in exams requires intelligence.
This so-called "natural ability" is perceived to be, as mentioned above, an increased ability to acquire knowledge in certain fields. However, it is my belief that people who work hard enough can often overcome perceived weaknesses in particular subjects. Personally, I wasn't terrific in English in high school. Sure, I'd get A+'s for exams, but they'd always be very close to the A cutoff. After spending half my time this year on English Language, I managed to change that. I would not say I have any natural ability at all in English; I had to rote-learn half the concepts taught in the course when they were common sense to other people. Similarly, I can't see why other people can't devote more time to a subject to get a higher score. Not good at maths? Eh, doesn't mean you can't score well in Methods. The only question is, do you have the motivation to? If so, I can't see why you can't get over 45. VCE does test knowledge in the course; as long as you understand the concepts and know how to use them in a variety of concepts, you should be able to answer every question.
4) It depends on what you want to do, but generally, I would say the opportunities are worth it. At Melbourne, for instance, you save $10000 a year on tuition fees and you get an extra $5000, so for three years this is around $45000. On top of that, you get guaranteed entry into a graduate course of your choice, including Medicine, while at Monash a 99.95 gets you $12000 a year on top of tuition fee waivering, which means around $66000 in total of money saved. Plus you get more connections as a scholarship student. Working to get a scholarship is like you're getting paid to do well in year 12. A year's work for $45000, any course you want at any university you want and completion of VCE? Sounds like an interesting deal.
5) How badly do you want a 99.95? I'd still aim for it and be disappointed because in trying to aim for it, you're likely to do better. Still, don't overstress or overwork yourself, and yeah, enjoy year 12 if you can.