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VCE Stuff => VCE Technology => VCE Mathematics/Science/Technology => VCE Subjects + Help => VCE Algorithmics => Topic started by: bedigursimran on September 04, 2015, 08:00:03 pm

Title: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 04, 2015, 08:00:03 pm
Hi guys. It's my second time posting in the algorithmics. If you didn't see my other post, I am currently in year 11 going to do Methods, Physics, Chemistry, English and either Software or Algoritmics next year. I am going to do either Software or Algoritmics over distance education. But I will have an IT teacher to help me sometimes when I need help at recess or after school. FYI My career path is software engineering or computer science. And, I have passion for coding and technology in general. I self taught myself Phython, Java and HTML in my free time.

The question from me is, I'm already doing comparatively harder subjects already and I'm willing to work fairly well for Algoritmics if it's not too hard to cope with. I do find year 11 Methods, Physics and Chemistry to be pretty easy. To my understanding, Software Dev is pretty much a blude subject that I can do as a plan B. Do you think that I should do Algorithmics? Please don't say it's up to me or I need to decide. Just give me your opinions on this. If you want any clarification just let me know. Thanks so much!
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Kindergarten on September 05, 2015, 11:18:19 am
Software Dev is pretty much a blude subject

Take it from someone doing it this year. SD is a bludge, it's great though distance ed in that I only need to spend 20 minutes a week on work so I have more time for other subjects. Personally I'd go with algorithmics if i were you, at the end of the day you will have enough time in the year to complete all of your subjects no matter what you choose. May as well pick what you find interesting as opposed to picking "bludge" subjects for the sake of being able to dedicate more time to other subjects.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Aaron on September 05, 2015, 11:52:42 am
As someone who is currently studying this field at university, I can say that Algorithmics will benefit you the most. The content that Algorithmics provides is essentially computer science at it's core - so I would DEFINITELY recommend Algorithmics over SD if you plan on entering Computer Science (+ the handy credit at the end).

The only thing is that you need to be mathematically literate in order to be successful in the subject. Analysing algorithms and their effectiveness takes a bit more into account than just 'programming' so to speak (e.g. Big O notation, graph theory - to name a few).
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 01:40:37 pm
Take it from someone doing it this year. SD is a bludge, it's great though distance ed in that I only need to spend 20 minutes a week on work so I have more time for other subjects. Personally I'd go with algorithmics if i were you, at the end of the day you will have enough time in the year to complete all of your subjects no matter what you choose. May as well pick what you find interesting as opposed to picking "bludge" subjects for the sake of being able to dedicate more time to other subjects.

What other subjects are you doing? But would Algorithmics be too much work over Distance Ed? I am doing Further maths right now in Year 11. What does your timetable look like?
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: zhenzhenzhen on September 06, 2015, 01:45:45 pm
I'd say just do the subject that will net you a higher score. If SD gets you a higher study score and takes less time than Algorithmics, then do that for sure.

Whatever you might learn next year, you will re-learn anyway at university. Getting into the course (and maybe with a scholarship) should be first on the priority list.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Aaron on September 06, 2015, 01:48:46 pm
Quote from: bedigursimran
But would Algorithmics be too much work over Distance Ed?

It's a higher education study (HESS).. basically I think I mentioned this in an earlier post somewhere that it's the equivalent of a first/second year computer science subject at university. It is a bit of work to get your head around and is arguably more difficult than your average VCE subject, but with dedication and work it's possible to score well.

You won't be able to neglect this subject for others due to its difficulty. If you're doing Unit 1+2 methods, that's a good start since Algorithmics in general is split 50/50 mathematics/programming (algorithmic concepts).
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 01:49:15 pm
As someone who is currently studying this field at university, I can say that Algorithmics will benefit you the most. The content that Algorithmics provides is essentially computer science at it's core - so I would DEFINITELY recommend Algorithmics over SD if you plan on entering Computer Science (+ the handy credit at the end).

The only thing is that you need to be mathematically literate in order to be successful in the subject. Analysing algorithms and their effectiveness takes a bit more into account than just 'programming' so to speak (e.g. Big O notation, graph theory - to name a few).

Do you think I will be able to understand the content on my own from Distance Ed because apparently it's as hard as Specilist maths(is that true?). I really do want to do Algoritmics though just don't want to concentrate on it too much so I don't well on other subjects, that's my main concern. I guess I'll have you guys to help me. :D
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 01:51:53 pm
I'd say just do the subject that will net you a higher score. If SD gets you a higher study score and takes less time than Algorithmics, then do that for sure.

Whatever you might learn next year, you will re-learn anyway at university. Getting into the course (and maybe with a scholarship) should be first on the priority list.

Yeah. That's the only reason I want to do Software Dev. I know I don't have to work hard at all and can still get mid 30s Study Score.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Aaron on September 06, 2015, 01:53:09 pm
Do you think I will be able to understand the content on my own from Distance Ed because apparently it's as hard as Specilist maths(is that true?). I really do want to do Algoritmics though just don't want to concentrate on it too much so I don't well on other subjects, that's my main concern. I guess I'll have you guys to help me. :D

The mathematics is not that bad, but since you have Methods it's ok. I only did Further back when I was in VCE and I did quite well learning this content, so don't let that "difficult math" bubble stop you from taking it on.

If you honestly are just after the study score, go for SD. But if you actually want to learn something useful to support your study in university later on, do Algorithmics.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: zhenzhenzhen on September 06, 2015, 01:59:39 pm
Alternatively just take the time in first semester of uni to learn Algorithimcs in university, on-campus, with proper peer and tutor support.

Don't get me wrong, it's an essential subject - a building block for your software development education, but I question if Year 12 is the proper time to take it.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 02:00:03 pm
The mathematics is not that bad, but since you have Methods it's ok. I only did Further back when I was in VCE and I did quite well learning this content, so don't let that "difficult math" bubble stop you from taking it on.

If you honestly are just after the study score, go for SD. But if you actually want to learn something useful to support your study in university later on, do Algorithmics.

I am doing Further maths right now. What ATAR did you get? I'm leaning towards Software DEV right now. Because I'll be relearning the content anyway in Uni.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 02:08:12 pm
Alternatively just take the time in first semester of uni to learn Algorithimcs in university, on-campus, with proper peer and tutor support.

Don't get me wrong, it's an essential subject - a building block for your software development education, but I question if Year 12 is the proper time to take the subject.

Yeah, you're right. I'll just do it in Uni. Thanks
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Aaron on September 06, 2015, 02:12:50 pm
I am doing Further maths right now. What ATAR did you get? I'm leaning towards Software DEV right now. Because I'll be relearning the content anyway in Uni.

I didn't do that great in VCE due to the fact that the subjects I did weren't engaging and/or interesting. I would have been jumping for joy with a subject like this if I had the chance. I've been a tutor for nearly a year now and the amount of first year students who come to university straight from high school who have no idea what's going on is concerning (even with Applications/Softdev as Year 12 subjects).

Like I originally said, if you just want the study score, choose SD. But with the added incentive of credit @ Melbourne if you successfully complete Algorithmics, I think it's something worth considering properly at least. This is just from my perspective, however in the end it's up to you since it's your future.

zhen is right in the sense that you'll re-learn it all at university, but why wait? If you're as interested in Software Development as you say you are, why not start now?

About the credit > http://www.cis.unimelb.edu.au/schools/algorithmics.html
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: MJRomeo81 on September 06, 2015, 02:28:40 pm
Anyone who seriously plans to undertake a CS/IT degree in uni should be doing algorithmics.

SD is a joke and like all joke VCE subjects, it isn't easy to get a high study score since the majority find the subject piss easy and hence you need to do more to stand out.

Let me elaborate from a former CS university tutor's perspective and current ORACLE DBA. A subject like algorithmics is the perfect kickstart for your academic CS studies. You will learn concepts that have stood the test of time in the industry... Not rubbish like VCAAs emphasis on efficiency vs effectiveness.

The whole concept of doing a subject because it's easier is honestly ridiculous and I am embarrassed to read such comments in this thread. If you find a subject more interesting, chances are you'll be more motivated to study. And if a subject is harder, you'll be more determined to put the extra hours in and reap the rewards.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 02:56:05 pm
Anyone who seriously plans to undertake a CS/IT degree in uni should be doing algorithmics.

SD is a joke and like all joke VCE subjects, it isn't easy to get a high study score since the majority find the subject piss easy and hence you need to do more to stand out.

Let me elaborate from a former CS university tutor's perspective and current ORACLE DBA. A subject like algorithmics is the perfect kickstart for your academic CS studies. You will learn concepts that have stood the test of time in the industry... Not rubbish like VCAAs emphasis on efficiency vs effectiveness.

The whole concept of doing a subject because it's easier is honestly ridiculous and I am embarrassed to read such comments in this thread. If you find a subject more interesting, chances are you'll be more motivated to study. And if a subject is harder, you'll be more determined to put the extra hours in and reap the rewards.

So true. Thing is, I don't know how hard it will be. Compared to Year 12 Methods, Physics or Chemistry. How much harder is it? Yeah the rewards thing is really nice. And you make really good points about motivation and determination.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Aaron on September 06, 2015, 03:10:04 pm
This is an example of one of the worksheets through Distance Ed. Obviously doesn't reflect the entire course but one of the things you might be expected to do (attached).

Source
https://sites.google.com/site/msgvce/home/year-12-algorithmics, publically found via Google
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 10:37:11 pm
This is an example of one of the worksheets through Distance Ed. Obviously doesn't reflect the entire course but one of the things you might be expected to do (attached).

Source
https://sites.google.com/site/msgvce/home/year-12-algorithmics, publically found via Google

Looks fun. :)
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Aaron on September 06, 2015, 10:56:21 pm
Looks fun. :)

Check out the source i've given for that as well. Hopefully that will give you a better insight into its difficulty.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 06, 2015, 11:12:57 pm
Check out the source i've given for that as well. Hopefully that will give you a better insight into its difficulty.

I checked both out. It doesn't look as hard as I thought. I think I should stick to Algorithmics and not look back at Software dev.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Hutchoo on September 07, 2015, 01:40:31 am
I'd say just do the subject that will net you a higher score. If SD gets you a higher study score and takes less time than Algorithmics, then do that for sure.

Whatever you might learn next year, you will re-learn anyway at university. Getting into the course (and maybe with a scholarship) should be first on the priority list.
This
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: GeniDoi on September 07, 2015, 11:29:17 am
Look, algorithmics isn't easy. It's not a bludge subject at all and requires a lot of dedication. If you're genuinely interested in the content and are up to date you should sail reasonably smoothly. Personally, having several years of java and python experience helped me because the subject involves a lot of pseudo code that needs to be analyzed, and a lot of the subconscious logic (for example, loop invariants) that comes easily to you if you have ever programmed before needs to be learnt if you haven't. I'm not saying you need programming experience, and VCAA certainly doesn't, but if you have even the basics under your belt a lot of the subject will have comforting moments where you say "Oh, I know that". Other than that, there's a lot you can actually learn before you begin the subject, such as all the different algorithms (check the study design) involved and such, which are splendidly documented on youtube. All this stuff helps you when the subject gets a little trickier, such as time complexity analysis.

I found it to be an interesting experience being in a subject that runs for the first year. Our teacher, who explained the content really well, was still learning the course and developing content for it while it was running, so a lot of times there were these moments where we genuinely discussed something before looking it up because none of us were sure of the real answer. It was unlike any other subject because of that, in a good way. Next year the resources will exist and the knowledge will be more established so I'm not sure if it'll be the same.

I can't comment on scaling, I think it'll be great, but we can only speculate. Do the subject because you want a strong foundation for C.S / I.T. in uni and the rest will (hopefully) follow.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 07, 2015, 01:55:18 pm
Look, algorithmics isn't easy. It's not a bludge subject at all and requires a lot of dedication. If you're genuinely interested in the content and are up to date you should sail reasonably smoothly. Personally, having several years of java and python experience helped me because the subject involves a lot of pseudo code that needs to be analyzed, and a lot of the subconscious logic (for example, loop invariants) that comes easily to you if you have ever programmed before needs to be learnt if you haven't. I'm not saying you need programming experience, and VCAA certainly doesn't, but if you have even the basics under your belt a lot of the subject will have comforting moments where you say "Oh, I know that". Other than that, there's a lot you can actually learn before you begin the subject, such as all the different algorithms (check the study design) involved and such, which are splendidly documented on youtube. All this stuff helps you when the subject gets a little trickier, such as time complexity analysis.

I found it to be an interesting experience being in a subject that runs for the first year. Our teacher, who explained the content really well, was still learning the course and developing content for it while it was running, so a lot of times there were these moments where we genuinely discussed something before looking it up because none of us were sure of the real answer. It was unlike any other subject because of that, in a good way. Next year the resources will exist and the knowledge will be more established so I'm not sure if it'll be the same.

I can't comment on scaling, I think it'll be great, but we can only speculate. Do the subject because you want a strong foundation for C.S / I.T. in uni and the rest will (hopefully) follow.

I have done a lot of coding in my spare time too. Like developing android apps. I am going to be doing it over Distance Education too so I will have minimal help from actual teacher. What subjects are you doing currently?
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: GeniDoi on September 07, 2015, 02:24:41 pm
I have done a lot of coding in my spare time too. Like developing android apps. I am going to be doing it over Distance Education too so I will have minimal help from actual teacher. What subjects are you doing currently?
Specialist/Algo/English/Physics/Psych and did mathmeth last year.

If you want to get a head start, focus on understanding the algorithms. If you can get an implementation going of all of them, everything from bellman ford, to prims to pagerank, you're going to have an edge. Play around with the IDE that your school uses (ours use edgy... https://github.com/snapapps/edgy0 though I think all of them might). There's a lot you can do before you've started to understand what the subject will be like.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: bedigursimran on September 07, 2015, 05:13:06 pm
Specialist/Algo/English/Physics/Psych and did mathmeth last year.

If you want to get a head start, focus on understanding the algorithms. If you can get an implementation going of all of them, everything from bellman ford, to prims to pagerank, you're going to have an edge. Play around with the IDE that your school uses (ours use edgy... https://github.com/snapapps/edgy0 though I think all of them might). There's a lot you can do before you've started to understand what the subject will be like.

BTW that link doesn't work. How are you finding algorithmics? Are you doing algorithmics over Distance Ed? Yeah I'll look at getting a head start over the term 3 holidays.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Schoyo on October 21, 2015, 06:24:56 pm
Quote
BTW that link doesn't work.

A working link to Edgy just for anyone who's interested in the future:
http://snapapps.github.io/edgy/app/edgy.html

It's used by all the schools (including Distance Ed) as a teaching tool for Algorithmics at the moment.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Hutchoo on October 21, 2015, 11:13:52 pm
I haven't looked into the VCE Algorithms syllabus, but do you guys 'code' in those drag and drop IDEs?
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: SayJay on October 22, 2015, 10:38:49 am
I haven't looked into the VCE Algorithms syllabus, but do you guys 'code' in those drag and drop IDEs?

Yes  :(, but it's only for Unit 3. There are two alternative programming languages (python and the Wolfram language according to this link: http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/correspondence/bulletins/2015/February/vce_curriculum.aspx#16), but using any one of these languages have to be approved by the school teacher. In Unit 4, we only look at how to formally analyse algorithms, some of algorithm design patterns (e.g. "dynamic programming" and "divide and conquer"), and the limits of computability. So there's no need to use Edgy for those areas of study.

As much as I hate it, I think it suits for academic purposes.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: Hutchoo on October 22, 2015, 10:56:55 pm
Yes  :(, but it's only for Unit 3. There are two alternative programming languages (python and the Wolfram language according to this link: http://www.vcaa.vic.edu.au/Pages/correspondence/bulletins/2015/February/vce_curriculum.aspx#16), but using any one of these languages have to be approved by the school teacher. In Unit 4, we only look at how to formally analyse algorithms, some of algorithm design patterns (e.g. "dynamic programming" and "divide and conquer"), and the limits of computability. So there's no need to use Edgy for those areas of study.

As much as I hate it, I think it suits for academic purposes.

I just looked at the past exam, and this subject looks surprisingly good. Assuming you do some Python stuff and implement your own algorithms (and don't rely on cut and pasting of code off Wikipedia), this is essentially an intro to basic comp sci. They really cover a wide range of topics too, so I think this unit has huge potential.

If I was in VCE, I would definitely do this subject.
Title: Re: Algorithmics vs Software Development
Post by: GeniDoi on October 23, 2015, 03:17:31 pm
I just looked at the past exam, and this subject looks surprisingly good. Assuming you do some Python stuff and implement your own algorithms (and don't rely on cut and pasting of code off Wikipedia), this is essentially an intro to basic comp sci. They really cover a wide range of topics too, so I think this unit has huge potential.

If I was in VCE, I would definitely do this subject.

No past exam yet, only the sample one.

It's a pretty good subject just the lack of resources make it harder... but it will improve as more cohorts go through it, already loads of school made practice exams floating around.