General Discussion => General Discussion Boards => Rants and Debate => Topic started by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 05:09:54 pm
Title: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 05:09:54 pm
Hey everyone,
Today I felt like I wanted to have some healthy discussions about what you think about eating meat and dairy. Do you think it's healthy? Do you think it's ethical? Why do you do it? etc. Please be honest! I'm a vegetarian so I'm going to be putting my points out there (against meat/dairy) as well so just remember I'm not attacking you! I just love debating a lot. But everything I say, I mean honestly. :)
Looking forward to hearing your points!! :D
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 27, 2016, 05:34:06 pm
I'm someone who has been brought up in a culture of vegetarianism (and especially against eating beef), but in all honesty, I like the taste of meat LOL. Like everything, eating it in moderation is vital. Interested to see your ethical arguments against meat, I see nothing wrong in eating meat from an ethical stand-point (I mean, we're not the only species to eat another?). Sure, every now and again in the news we hear stories of "inhumane slaughtering" of animals, and I'm definitely against that, but I think largely in Australia it's all done humanely. To me, eating meat just fits in with where we are in the food chain.
On the note of dairy, I don't consume much dairy (haven't drank a glass of milk in over 10 years), but that's probably more-so because I have an acquired intolerance to it more than anything else.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: spectroscopy on February 27, 2016, 05:46:50 pm
Do you think it's healthy? Do you think it's ethical? Why do you do it? etc. Please be honest!
i had a vegan phase when i was fasting for religious purposes but tbh i got too bored of the foods and i dont like the taste of veggies lmao. until there is empirical evidence of (significant) health benefits of vegetarianism i wouldnt consider it, and even then i probably wouldnt do it. the problem with alot of the studies is that the vegetarian groups that are examined in studies are usually more affluent, non-smokers, more health conscious overall etc. and dont partake in things that are already proven to be bad for your health (like excessive drinking/smoking). as such things like life expectancy for the vegetarian groups in most studies are higher than the non vegetarian ones because of reasons that generally could be chalked up to lifestyle factors. id wanna see a really long term study on vegetarians vs eating meat vs veganism over decades but with similiar demographics in each group
why do i eat meat? i like the taste, (pretty much) everything is good in moderation, its easy to find/eat/cook/buy. i have a few friends who are vegeterian or vegan for religious purposes and in general they understand its appeal and i even have a good friend who has just begun the process of going from vegan to eating meat. its been natural for a long time for humans to eat meat. before we developed agrarian societies we were mostly hunter-gatherers who would hunt animals and eat them so from an evolutionary and biological standpoint its pretty much the normal thing to do. lions eat zebras and bears eat salmon so its pretty natural all things considered for a species to eat another species.
like pi said above inhumane slaughter is really shit too and i wouldn't want that and alot of marketing studies would even show that consumers in general are happy to pay a price premium for ethically sourced products so i dont agree with the inhumane slaughter of animals like the shit you see on those viral facebook videos lol. thats very much a western thing though (to care about that) because in alot of non western countries like in asia and africa their cultural approach to animals and meat is VERY different. they really dont see animals as having feelings or whatever. especially in the abattoirs in south east asia.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Orson on February 27, 2016, 06:02:33 pm
If you haven't, check out vegan activist Gary Yourofsky; he's very passionate and you might find it quite interesting to read his, at times, extreme arguments.
Not a veggie/vegan, but I think the choice to be vegetarian on a purely ethical basis is somewhat naive considering the atrocities committed to the dairy industry don't ebb to far away from those of the meat industry. Personally I'm still sitting on the fence with this issue.
Yes I have checked him out! He was the one to convince me to want to go vegan. Obviously I'm living with my parents at this point and am not allowed to go vegan, so when I move out 100% I will.
Interesting point there! I never thought about it like that before. The picture does say that 'Humans are the only animals that drink the milk of other animals'. Let me elaborate - the point of the quote is that drinking milk is not necessary. And neither are the other things that were listed - flying planes, making movies and using the phone. However those things do make life a lot easier! But how does milk make your life easier?
I'm someone who has been brought up in a culture of vegetarianism (and especially against eating beef), but in all honesty, I like the taste of meat LOL.
This is one of the most common arguments I've come across - that people like the taste of meat. But does that make it ok? Like if a human tasted human meat, and they like it, they'd probably be put in jail. Same with someone who likes the taste of dog, cat, etc. (in this country at least). What makes it different?
I see nothing wrong in eating meat from an ethical stand-point (I mean, we're not the only species to eat another?). Sure, every now and again in the news we hear stories of "inhumane slaughtering" of animals, and I'm definitely against that, but I think largely in Australia it's all done humanely.
We are most certainly not the only species to eat another species. But our human bodies are physically not meant to eat meat. Take a look at the human body. Our intestines are long, unlike hyenas/lions which need shorter intestines to get the decomposing flesh out of their bodies quicker. We have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat eater - if we were meant to consume flesh, we would have stronger stomach acids to do the job. We do not have claws, whereas meat eaters do. Even dogs have claws and they have no need to hunt anymore after domestication. We have well developed salivary glands, which are used to digest fruits and grains.
But as you mentioned the ethical part of it, I feel obliged to tell you that animals throughout the world, even Australia, are not killed 'humanely'. They are stunned (which does not always work all the time) (a stun is a gunshot to the head) and then they are killed in horrible ways which I shall not post here because they are too gruesome and if you would like to be informed you can go to http://www.meat.org. And besides, what is 'humane killing'? Is it that the animal is given a wonderful life and does not feel anything before they die? Well here is a scenario that Gary Yourofsky used: say you met a nice man/woman at a bar. They and you have a great time, eating, drinking, etc. He/she has an awesome time and so do you. You have heaps of fun and then later in the day you meet again for dinner at your house. When he/she is not looking, you slip them a sleeping drug, and when they are unconscious you murder them brutally. Is that humane?
its been natural for a long time for humans to eat meat. before we developed agrarian societies we were mostly hunter-gatherers who would hunt animals and eat them so from an evolutionary and biological standpoint its pretty much the normal thing to do. lions eat zebras and bears eat salmon so its pretty natural all things considered for a species to eat another species.
As I mentioned above humans are not biologically meant to eat meat, you can see that from our anatomy and by comparing it to meat eaters and herbivores. You say we were hunter gatherers before developing agrarian societies - but before that, before the whole Ice Age era, there was no need to eat meat. When the Ice Age came around, people were starving and resorted to meat. After the Ice Age, things should have gone back to normal...but they didn't, and people continue to eat meat + dairy today. If humans are meant to eat meat, then how come when a lion eats a zebra raw it gets stronger, but when we eat a chicken raw we get salmonella poisoning?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Deshouka on February 27, 2016, 07:01:00 pm
Just out of curiosity, are you religious by any chance?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Señor on February 27, 2016, 07:01:28 pm
If humans are meant to eat meat, then how come when a lion eats a zebra raw it gets stronger, but when we eat a chicken raw we get salmonella poisoning?
Because humans are different to lions.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: keltingmeith on February 27, 2016, 07:02:48 pm
As someone who knows very little about biology, please educate me - why is it that we compare to other animals? I mean, we have different physiology - so why is the fact that they don't drink milk an indication of how we should live? We don't drink milk purely for taste, it does have vitamins and minerals in it. It's not the only source, no, but it is a source.
Similarly, you keep mentioning that our physiology isn't designed for meat eaters, but last I looked our teeth and jaws are more akin to omnivores than herbivores?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 07:07:53 pm
Just out of curiosity, are you religious by any chance?
Yes I am, but my religion has nothing to do with whether I choose to eat meat. And neither is it the reason I want to share with people the consequences of eating meat + dairy.
But meat eaters shouldn't be different to meat eaters. Lions are like tigers. Tigers are like hyenas. Hyenas are like wolves. Wolves are like leopards. etc. They all have claws, sharp canines (and not only two sets of sharp teeth - their whole mouth is filled with sharp teeth whereas we only have four tiny canines that could never grip on raw flesh while hunting). I wonder if there are any carnivores similar in physiology to humans?...
But many scientific studies have shown an assortment of detrimental health effects directly linked to milk consumption. And the most surprising link is that not only do we barely absorb the calcium in cow’s milk (especially if pasteurized), but to make matters worse, it actually increases calcium loss from the bones. What an irony this is!
Here’s how it happens. Like all animal protein, milk acidifies the body pH which in turn triggers a biological correction. You see, calcium is an excellent acid neutralizer and the biggest storage of calcium in the body is – you guessed it… in the bones. So the very same calcium that our bones need to stay strong is utilized to neutralize the acidifying effect of milk. Once calcium is pulled out of the bones, it leaves the body via the urine, so that the surprising net result after this is an actual calcium deficit.
Knowing this, you’ll understand why statistics show that countries with the lowest consumption of dairy products also have the lowest fracture incidence in their population (there’s more on this later).
But the sad truth is that most mainstream health practitioners ignore these proven facts.
Similarly, you keep mentioning that our physiology isn't designed for meat eaters, but last I looked our teeth and jaws are more akin to omnivores than herbivores?
We have four canines and the rest of our teeth are flat, like cows, deer, etc. - animals that chew their food. Carnivorous animals like lions, tigers, even domesticated animals like dogs and cats that have no need to have sharp teeth to hunt for food or eat raw meat anymore, still have sharp teeth. And our four canines are tiny!
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 07:38:43 pm
Also, another point about milk - 75% of the world is intolerant to milk. I asked my biology teacher about this. She said that during the early stages of humanity, when people had migrated out of Africa to other parts of the world, people from Europe/surrounding areas mutated - they developed the ability to continue to produce the enzyme that digests milk in your body. Typically you stop producing this enzyme as a young child because your body has no need for milk in childhood/adulthood after drinking breastmilk in infancy. So the ~25% of people who are tolerant towards milk actually have mutated genes. Tld;dr - drinking milk is not actually biologically natural!
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Señor on February 27, 2016, 07:57:37 pm
If humans are meant to eat meat, then how come when a lion eats a zebra raw it gets stronger, but when we eat a chicken raw we get salmonella poisoning?
You are manipulating the information. Yes it is true that lion who eats a zebra raw gets stronger. Yes it is true when we eat a chicken raw we get poisoning. However you have not informed the rest of us that not all animals can eat raw meat with contracting a poisoning. You have also forgotten to inform us that humans can eat raw meat, for example a steak tartare.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 08:10:41 pm
You are manipulating the information. Yes it is true that lion who eats a zebra raw gets stronger. Yes it is true when we eat a chicken raw we get poisoning. However you have not informed the rest of us that not all animals can eat raw meat with contracting a poisoning.
Source? I tried to find some facts/stats on this but couldn't.
You have also forgotten to inform us that humans can eat raw meat, for example a steak tartare.
That may be true. But that is one type of meat of many that humans eat, and the only one I have heard of so far that humans can eat raw. If humans can eat more raw meat than not without getting sick, that might mean something to me.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Señor on February 27, 2016, 08:33:50 pm
That may be true. But that is one type of meat of many that humans eat, and the only one I have heard of so far that humans can eat raw. If humans can eat more raw meat than not without getting sick, that might mean something to me.
Your arguments are based around the idea that humans arent meant to eat meat. It is irrelevant that we werent made for eating meat. Why? Because humans do not care whether or not they were made to do things.
Humans were not made for space exploration and yet the world watched with anticipation as we landed on the moon. Was there a danger? Yeah there was a hell of a danger to leave earth. Just as there is in eating meat.
We humans adapt to make our lives better. You do not see humans dying from eating meat bought from coles or safeway, so why should they stop? Is it healthier? I dont know. I work out. I go home. I eat chicken or beef. I repeat. I see gains. I see that meat is good.
Kudos to you that you promote a healthy lifestyle. I dont have a biology degree and you are 16 i guess. Im 18 myself and i respect your views. However all i know is that when i work out. I go home. I eat chicken or beef. I repeat. I see gains. I see that meat is good.
By the way the source to animals getting sick eating meat is eating parasites. Just remember that the internet out there is subjective most of the time. Keep an open mind and read the arguments of people against vegetarians.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 27, 2016, 08:39:16 pm
That may be true. But that is one type of meat of many that humans eat, and the only one I have heard of so far that humans can eat raw. If humans can eat more raw meat than not without getting sick, that might mean something to me.
We are most certainly not the only species to eat another species. But our human bodies are physically not meant to eat meat. Take a look at the human body. Our intestines are long, unlike hyenas/lions which need shorter intestines to get the decomposing flesh out of their bodies quicker. We have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat eater - if we were meant to consume flesh, we would have stronger stomach acids to do the job. We do not have claws, whereas meat eaters do. Even dogs have claws and they have no need to hunt anymore after domestication. We have well developed salivary glands, which are used to digest fruits and grains.
We also eat plenty of fish raw, just look at any Asian cuisine.
But I think this is a moot point anyway. Let's look at the spectrum of animals. Vultures can eat rotting flesh. Lions can eat flesh. We can eat cooked flesh. We've all involved differently. Our stomach's are weaker because if we can cook meat, we don't need to so rigorously process it to gain the nutrients. Again, evolution explains this very simply to me.
But as you mentioned the ethical part of it, I feel obliged to tell you that animals throughout the world, even Australia, are not killed 'humanely'. They are stunned (which does not always work all the time) (a stun is a gunshot to the head) and then they are killed in horrible ways which I shall not post here because they are too gruesome and if you would like to be informed you can go to http://www.meat.org. And besides, what is 'humane killing'? Is it that the animal is given a wonderful life and does not feel anything before they die? Well here is a scenario that Gary Yourofsky used: say you met a nice man/woman at a bar. They and you have a great time, eating, drinking, etc. He/she has an awesome time and so do you. You have heaps of fun and then later in the day you meet again for dinner at your house. When he/she is not looking, you slip them a sleeping drug, and when they are unconscious you murder them brutally. Is that humane?
Thanks for "obliging" me lol. The RSPCA definition of humanely killing is "an animal must be either killed instantly or rendered insensible to pain until death supervenes.". I'm not super learned on how animals are slaughtered but I believe that's the goal in most slaughterhouses (for a lack of a better word), but of course practices have room to improve.
I think the analogy you have given is markedly different and not a fair analogy at all. Your pal Yourofsky, who has been banned from entering several countries, also once said that users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer. He's a lunatic and I hope you have other people to read and learn from.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: spectroscopy on February 27, 2016, 08:49:22 pm
Source? I tried to find some facts/stats on this but couldn't.
you ask him for sources but you dont provide any yourself lol
i think at the end of the day, taking every fact in here related to the health side of things as true, the big thing for meat eaters is the fact they dont really care about anecdotal facts and health arguments if the upside outcomes aren't visible
the longest living people have eaten meat, there is no empirical evidence of vegetarians having better health outcomes than meat eaters, and most divergences in occurences of major illnesses between vegetarians and meat eaters are either statistically insignificant or more likely to be representative of the demographic groups differences rather than the diet differences. as long as vegetarians arent consistently living decades longer and having way better health outcomes than meat eaters, most people who grew up enjoying steaks and chicken etc. will not care if "we arent meant to eat it".
even if for arguments sake we assume vegetarians are (objectively) marginally healthier, this improved state isnt that tangible or noticeable. With smoking for instance, the negative effects are very obvious, risks for horrible illnesses are increased by ridiculous amounts and most people know someone whose been affected by smoking caused illness. But if that hasnt happened with meating, ie; if meat eating isn't so unhealthy that we can tell a difference, most people wont care. i dont give a fuck if my body wasnt "meant to drink milk", if im not lactose intolerant and it hasnt harmed me or my family in anyway that i can tell, im still gonna put milk in my weetbix LMAO
im not trying to talk down veganism or vegetarianism though, people can do whatever they want. if you feel better eatng that way, whether its physiological or psychological, you should do what works for you. some people just prefer to eat vegeterian or vegan and thats cool, but for me personally and most people i know, there isnt enough evidence of the significant health benefits for us to stop eating chicken or beef or fish or any meat.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 27, 2016, 09:05:33 pm
I will put it very simply, if you think vegetarianism > eating anything, think about this. We humans are organisms, we are live beings, we are animals, just like chickens and roosters, and just like tigers and zebras. You know what else are organisms? Plants, plants are also living things, no they do not have a brain, but they are alive, they breathe, just like us animals, and they require energy, just like us animals.
So if you are against killing animals and eating their meat, then why are you not against the murdering of lettuce, tomatoes and apples?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 09:10:09 pm
We humans adapt to make our lives better. You do not see humans dying from eating meat bought from coles or safeway, so why should they stop? Is it healthier? I dont know. I work out. I go home. I eat chicken or beef. I repeat. I see gains. I see that meat is good.
Better lives? I have no idea where you got that from - Meat gives you an increased risk of: - Cancer - Heart disease
Milk gives you an increased risk of: - Acne - Asthma - Osteoporosis - Cancer - Diabetes - Ear infections - Arthritis - Heart disease
All I'm saying is, you should question what people tell you. People tell you that milk is good for your bones. But is it? Is meat really necessary for protein/iron/other nutrients? If so, how am I alive?
Thanks for "obliging" me lol. The RSPCA definition of humanely killing is "an animal must be either killed instantly or rendered insensible to pain until death supervenes.". I'm not super learned on how animals are slaughtered but I believe that's the goal in most slaughterhouses (for a lack of a better word), but of course practices have room to improve.
I think the analogy you have given is markedly different and not a fair analogy at all. Your pal Yourofsky, who has been banned from entering several countries, also once said that users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer. He's a lunatic and I hope you have other people to read and learn from.
I know. I know he's been banned from several countries (including Canada). I've listened to his speeches. By saying that Gary is a lunatic by believing that "users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer" clearly means that you acknowledge that the way these animals are treated is horrible, and you acknowledge that you do not want to be treated that way. Otherwise, why would you disagree with him? If the animals were not treated painfully then why would you disagree with him? So what I do not understand is, if you get all that, why people still continue to pay the meat and dairy industry (as well as the companies that test on animals - we can't leave them out) when they know perfectly well that the money will go to people who murder innocent animals?
All I'm saying is, if you know the facts, why do you choose to ignore them? It's one thing to be ignorant. But to know what's going on and then not doing anything about it is lunacy. When I found out about how dairy cattle and meat cattle are treated I was horrified. And immediately I knew I didn't want to support that industry. It's not like I was like "oh well, not my problem, Imma just keep buying my milk and eggs". No - I can't ignore such a massive problem in today's world. What gives humans the right to keep animals in cages like concentration camps, kill 2.5 million animals A DAY, and then make it out to be some happy life they have where they are treated like royalty? They're lying to us! I just can't believe people don't realise it.
you ask him for sources but you dont provide any yourself lol there isnt enough evidence of the significant health benefits for us to stop eating chicken or beef or fish or any meat.
I will put it very simply, if you think vegetarianism > eating anything, think about this. We humans are organisms, we are live beings, we are animals, just like chickens and roosters, and just like tigers and zebras. You know what else are organisms? Plants, plants are also living things, no they do not have a brain, but they are alive, they breathe, just like us animals, and they require energy, just like us animals.
So if you are against killing animals and eating their meat, then why are you not against the murdering of lettuce, tomatoes and apples?
Plants are not sentient beings, they cannot feel pain. And how can you compare the picking of crops to the thoughtless brutality of murder that millions of animals go through each day? Like how is that even a fair comparison? It's ridiculous. Besides, eating plants is much more efficient and healthy for the world than eating meat - one acre of land can give you 3000 pounds of potatoes, and only 250 pounds of cattle. By eating the plants directly we can save so much more food! Most of the grain in this world is used to fatten up animals for humans to eat. We could literally save billions of lives by not eating meat - the lives of animals, and those in poverty who have no food.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: keltingmeith on February 27, 2016, 09:29:27 pm
Here's some more things that give you an increased risk of cancer:
-sunlight -cooking food (INCLUDING vegies) -many chemicals that appear in every day life
Milk and meat can lead to cancer, I'm sure - but so can lots of other things. In fact, all studies I've read show a correlation between cancer and these things. The only thing listed here that I'm sure has a causation is sunlight. Please show me a scientific article if you'd like to prove otherwise.
Also the thing with Gary is that there's a difference between ethical treatment of animals and ethical treatment of humans - to do as Gary suggests would lead to death of humans, which is where the line is drawn. THAT'S why there's outrage - we're not going to cover our eyes and pretend that all animals are killed painlessly, but at the end of the day, that's the end goal - to kill them painlessly. If you find a group who does otherwise, I'll boycott. But I won't treat humans in the same way - senseless killing of humans is not okay in my eyes (in fact, senseless killing of anything), and two wrongs don't make a right anyway.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 27, 2016, 09:34:32 pm
I know. I know he's been banned from several countries (including Canada). I've listened to his speeches. By saying that Gary is a lunatic by believing that "users of animals and their products such as milk, meat, fur or testing should face the same fate that the animals suffer" clearly means that you acknowledge that the way these animals are treated is horrible, and you acknowledge that you do not want to be treated that way. Otherwise, why would you disagree with him? If the animals were not treated painfully then why would you disagree with him?
Being cruel, as per the RSPCA defintion of inhumane killing, is bad. I'd like to believe that in Aus we strive to humanely kill animals, I know that in reality this doesn't happen but that things are always trying to be improved. I have faith in things improving.
I completely disagree with him and think he's a bit of a nut-case. I would not wanted to be treated like, for example, a rat that was bred for lab testing new drugs. Am I ashamed in admitting that? Not at all. I understand where he's coming from, but I also believe he's taking scenarios to the nth degree and still think they're relevant. They're just not.
So yes, I think animals could be treated better in these facilities, but like above I think that things are improving every time light gets shone on a dodgy practice. I don't see why if a scientist is injecting a rat with a new drug they should, by his logic, inject it into themselves too? Absolute lunacy.
So what I do not understand is, if you get all that, why people still continue to pay the meat and dairy industry (as well as the companies that test on animals - we can't leave them out) when they know perfectly well that the money will go to people who murder innocent animals?
Why would I still buy meat? It tastes good. Why would I still by medicine that was once tested on animals? I kinda don't want to die yet.
If you want to live your life by your definition of what's ethical by not eating meat and not taking medicine, feel free to go and do that. I would applaud you for having the determination, but also feel sorry for you for the irrationality in your choice.
All I'm saying is, if you know the facts, why do you choose to ignore them? It's one thing to be ignorant. But to know what's going on and then not doing anything about it is lunacy.
There are a *lot* of bad things going on in the world. I read about them, I think about them, and I understand they're bad. But I can't do things about them; I don't have the money, don't have the resources, or maybe I've prioritised to do other things first because I'm just selfish like that. I think it's very rich of you to be accusing me (or anyone) of not doing anything about something that you think is "bad", and then labeling our inactions as a matter of "lunacy".
When I found out about how dairy cattle and meat cattle are treated I was horrified. And immediately I knew I didn't want to support that industry. It's not like I was like "oh well, not my problem, Imma just keep buying my milk and eggs". No - I can't ignore such a massive problem in today's world. What gives humans the right to keep animals in cages like concentration camps, kill 2.5 million animals A DAY, and then make it out to be some happy life they have where they are treated like royalty? They're lying to us! I just can't believe people don't realise it.
Your pal Yourofsky equated them to the Holocaust and I'm disgusted you're using his language again with "concentration camps". I won't be commenting again because I think that sort of talk is just sickening and disrespectful.
And for the record, you found out that there were animals in "concentration camps" and all you did was stopped buying milk and eggs? Shaaaaaaaaame on you, do you think they noticed that $5/week loss of profit? Did you really make a difference? Imagine if the US found out about Hitler's concentration camps and stopped buying German cars. Give yourself a pat on the back mate, but you haven't made anyone feel good except yourself. (do you realise how unfair and stupid that sounds now?)
And how can you compare the picking of crops to the thoughtless brutality of murder that millions of animals go through each day? Like how is that even a fair comparison? It's ridiculous.
But the Holocaust is a fair and valid comparison? What an absolute joke mate.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Señor on February 27, 2016, 09:38:26 pm
Better lives? I have no idea where you got that from - Meat gives you an increased risk of: - Cancer - Heart disease
Milk gives you an increased risk of: - Acne - Asthma - Osteoporosis - Cancer - Diabetes - Ear infections - Arthritis - Heart disease
The Best Speech Ever - Gary Yourofsky[/url]
I been drinking milk since i my mum stop breastfeeding me. I am a healthy man. I still drink milk to this day. I do not have a single problem. Its one thing to call someone ignorant when they ignore healthwarning signs, however i have not seen any signs lmao, in fact im extremely healthy.
'The Best Speech Ever' That seems like credible and unbiased source.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 09:51:10 pm
Your pal Yourofsky equated them to the Holocaust and I'm disgusted you're using his language again with "concentration camps". I won't be commenting again because I think that sort of talk is just sickening and disrespectful.
And for the record, you found out that there were animals in "concentration camps" and all you did was stopped buying milk and eggs? Shaaaaaaaaame on you, do you think they noticed that $5/week loss of profit? Did you really make a difference? Imagine if the US found out about Hitler's concentration camps and stopped buying German cars. Give yourself a pat on the back mate, but you haven't made anyone feel good except yourself. (do you realise how unfair and stupid that sounds now?)
But the Holocaust is a fair and valid comparison? What an absolute joke mate.
Wow, okay, I wasn't comparing it to the Holocaust. I was just simply saying that the mass numbers of animals being cramped up in cages is a really bad thing, it shouldn't be done, etc.
Why would I still buy meat? It tastes good. Why would I still by medicine that was once tested on animals? I kinda don't want to die yet.
If you want to live your life by your definition of what's ethical by not eating meat and not taking medicine, feel free to go and do that. I would applaud you for having the determination, but also feel sorry for you for the irrationality in your choice.
Wow. Okay. You're justifying the murder of millions upon millions of animals...by saying it tastes good. And how is my opinion irrational? How can you call my opinion irrational when you literally just said you eat animals simply because they taste good? That's like a smoker saying, I smoke because I feel good, as a way to justify it. Like yeah, we get that it feels good, but don't you realise it's bad for you?! Or a murderer saying, I murder because I feel good. Hey, that's actually a pretty good comparison to the people in the meat industry. Don't you think?
The point is if this was happening to humans, at this scale, people would be in outrage. It would have stopped by now. But why is it different when it comes to animals? How are we better than them? And why do we think we have the right to control their (short) lives?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 09:54:42 pm
I been drinking milk since i my mum stop breastfeeding me. I am a healthy man. I still drink milk to this day. I do not have a single problem. Its one thing to call someone ignorant when they ignore healthwarning signs, however i have not seen any signs lmao, in fact im extremely healthy.
Milk causes *increased* risk of the problems I mentioned. it does not guarantee them, but it certainly increases the risk of developing them. Kudos on staying healthy!
'The Best Speech Ever' That seems like credible and unbiased source.
Technically it is not a source, I just listed it because I thought people should watch it. If you really want to find the truth then it's very easy - just search it up on Google and everything comes up.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Swagadaktal on February 27, 2016, 09:59:59 pm
Ok I haven't read every single post so I'm sorry if I'm repeating someone else... but from what I've seen - the debate has gone from reasoned /evidence supported to just conspiracy theories and correlations. Not causation.
Meat could be associated with all those terrible things you named simply because of how it's cooked by some people. Correlation. Not causation.
And brah don't even try to mess with milk. The argument isn't strong. A lot of meddies in here (i love yall) - I don't think one person would support those 'facts.'
Without trying to be blunt, you're gasping at straws now. Sort've like (not comparing you to these people but the technique used is mirrored here) racist people who have resorted their entire knowledge on a race or religion (not racist here but bigoted) on a facebook post. It's sort've like you're trying to reassure yourself and not others, trying to prove to yourself that you've made the right decision, not trying to change our minds.
Ya feel?
Oh and damn man not everyone can be empathetic towards animals fam. Like tbh I don't have the empathetic capacity to feel for animals I can't see you know? I know it's terrible in some places, but I'm just not that empathetic. With issues effecting fellow humans, who share the same cognitive and perceptual abilities as us, I.e the issues facing our Indigenous, or gender inequality in society, or minority groups who are excluded from society - I can relate to them without seeing them.
You can't have this predisposition that everyone shares the same views about animals as you.
And meat just doesn't "taste good" - it's been woven into the fabric of our society. Essentially, it's not as easy as you think to just completely uproot our cuisine and way of living. I could have 10 other reasons here and I wouldn't even be skimming the surface of the reasons why meat is consumed.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: keltingmeith on February 27, 2016, 10:06:37 pm
Alright, I'm going from debater to adjudicator.
This debate is becoming highly emotionally charged. From this point, name calling and putting people down will not be tolerated. Zero tolerance. If you feel like such emotive language is the way to best get your point across, you're wrong. If you feel personally charged by this topic, feel free to step out for a few minutes, then calm yourself before responding.
Also, please no more discussion on the Holocaust. I know quite a few Jewish people who would find it rather offensive. Whether you mean it that way or not.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 27, 2016, 10:09:01 pm
I know I said I wouldn't comment again, but I lied. This takes me back to the AN of old, good times :D
I don't know if you understand this but WAY more animals were killed, and continue to be killed, to this day, than humans in the Holocaust. Of course the Holocaust was bad. And this killing of animals is bad too. But more lives are being lost in the meat/dairy holocaust.
Oh I didn't know that, I must have forgotten that I'm a complete idiot with an IQ in single digits. Thanks for being so condescending.
I'm not going to apologise for humans killing animals, animals kill animals, it's the circle of life, it's been happening before humans even existed (although given you dodged all my comments about evolution, perhaps that's not your cup of tea?). Unlike lions who bite a gazelles' heads off, we painlessly kill animals. Of the two, which is "murder" to you?
So why is it that when humans are killed everyone thinks its the worst thing ever, and then when way more animals die, in a shorter time period, people don't care? Someone at least explain that. Is it because you think you're above animals? That you're somehow better than them? How are we better than them? We're the ones killing them. They haven't done a single thing to us.
Two reasons why we react differently: 1) We're humans and we look after our own, ie. humans come first and every species is the same, evolution is a selfish process 2) I can't believe I have to say this, but the Holocaust does not actually fall under the RSPCA definition of humane killing of animals, and that's because humans aren't part of that definition, and what happened over there was fkn horrific (and even that is an under-exaggeration).
Whether humans are better or "more evolved" is as much a philosophical point as it is a scientific one, so I'm not going to go into it. But I don't think it matters, we're killing them to eat them. Like a lion would kill a gazelle to eat it. It doesn't need to kill the gazelle (there are other food options), we don't need to kill the cow. Both groups want to. It's not hard to understand.
And how is my opinion irrational? How can you call my opinion irrational when you literally just said you eat animals simply because they taste good?
> I have the urge to eat steak because I like the taste > I'll buy some steak meat > I'll cook some steak > I'll eat some steak > I'm now full and don't have that urge to eat steak > I'm happy
Seems completely logical to me. What part defies logic?
That's like a smoker saying, I smoke because I feel good.
So what? Good for them. As long as I don't have to inhale their smoke (because I think smoking is unhealthy for me), that's their choice and their freedom. Do you have an issue with that too?
Or a murderer saying, I murder because I feel good. Hey, that's actually a pretty good comparison to the people in the meat industry. Don't you think?
I actually don't think that at all, and I'm worried you think that. As mentioned, as a species, we protect our own. Someone killing our own is not something that comes under "protection", so thus (among a myriad of other reasons), I'm against murdering people. I've address why this is different to killing animals above.
This debate is becoming highly emotionally charged. From this point, name calling and putting people down will not be tolerated. Zero tolerance. If you feel like such emotive language is the way to best get your point across, you're wrong. If you feel personally charged by this topic, feel free to step out for a few minutes, then calm yourself before responding.
Oh no! Here come the PoPo!
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 10:18:12 pm
OKAY GUYS.
Let me just write this.
I get that we all have different views. I get that not all of us eat meat, dairy, etc. I get that people can choose what they want to do. Please can we not have any rude comments? We're all human, we all have feelings. I understand what I have said has upset people. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset too. It would be great if we could just agree to disagree. I hope that's okay. I think I'm going to finish by saying thanks for posting your opinions. My comparisons were not meant to hurt anyone. I did not intend to hurt anyone. Please forgive me if I caused anyone any hurt.
pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?
Once again, really sorry. All I was trying to do was express my views. I know you guys were just trying to do the same. Things got a little heated and for that I apologise.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Swagadaktal on February 27, 2016, 10:25:35 pm
I get that we all have different views. I get that not all of us eat meat, dairy, etc. I get that people can choose what they want to do. Please can we not have any rude comments? We're all human, we all have feelings. I understand what I have said has upset people. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset too. It would be great if we could just agree to disagree. I hope that's okay. I think I'm going to finish by saying thanks for posting your opinions. My comparisons were not meant to hurt anyone. I did not intend to hurt anyone. Please forgive me if I caused anyone any hurt.
pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?
Once again, really sorry. All I was trying to do was express my views. I know you guys were just trying to do the same. Things got a little heated and for that I apologise.
Thanks.
Oh dude it's perfectly fine to post your opinions. I hope I didnt discourage you in my post, I was just simply joining the debate - my post wasn't emotionally fueled, more analytically viewing the arguments presented and the wording used.
If this wasnt in relation to my post and my ego is just that huge ignore this :P
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 27, 2016, 10:38:05 pm
I get that we all have different views. I get that not all of us eat meat, dairy, etc. I get that people can choose what they want to do. Please can we not have any rude comments? We're all human, we all have feelings. I understand what I have said has upset people. But that doesn't mean I'm not upset too. It would be great if we could just agree to disagree. I hope that's okay. I think I'm going to finish by saying thanks for posting your opinions. My comparisons were not meant to hurt anyone. I did not intend to hurt anyone. Please forgive me if I caused anyone any hurt.
pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?
Once again, really sorry. All I was trying to do was express my views. I know you guys were just trying to do the same. Things got a little heated and for that I apologise.
Thanks.
You don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinion, Donald Trump certainly isn't xD
Besides you are right in saying that we animas think greater than plants, and hence we can eat plants. But you can't deny that humans are intellectually more capable than other animals, so that's why I think killing/eating (responsibly and without in humane treatment) animals is acceptable. That is my opinion.
Oh and I pick up a scent that Pi really LOVES his meat haha
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: keltingmeith on February 27, 2016, 10:40:27 pm
pi, I'd just like to say, I didn't write those things as a personal attack. I'm sorry if I made myself out to be someone hating on you, I don't hate you and I don't know you personally so I can't hate you. You are 100% allowed to do whatever you want with your life. We just have different opinions. That's okay. I would just like to say I'm sorry for making you feel upset, and I'm sorry I got really attack-ish too. Forgive and forget?
That's fine, I have a pretty high threshold for insults, and I was probably a bit of a dick at times too :P Agreeing to disagree this time :P
Oh and I pick up a scent that Pi really LOVES his meat haha
I actually don't eat that much meat due to my up-bringing :P I just love a good debate :D
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: slothpomba on February 27, 2016, 10:50:05 pm
I don't have time to read the other arguments (maybe another time) but i have been a vegetarian for 16 years (since i was 8, long story, my own choice).
I think it's pretty fucked personally, that said, its not like i'll judge other people for it. Even moreso, i want people to be vegetarians because they believe in a set of ethical views, rather than them just being badgered into it by me. It reminds me this story of this couple being two different religions. To make the girl happy, the guy would convert but if you think about it, that's almost an insulting thing to do. You want a person to believe in something because they actually do think its the right thing.
Here are some basic facts. We don't need meat to survive, it is essentially a nice thing to have. Production of meat, especially modern agriculture, can and very often does, cause a great degree of pain, discomfort and stress to the animals. Thus, we are basically causing a large degree of pain and suffering to other sentient creatures over a luxury we want, rather than something we even need, i do find that a little fucked.
I think philosophically and ethically (but even just on a common level) people will have a hard time truly justifying causing suffering to another being because it gives them something they like, rather than something they need. Say if i went around stabbing peoples cats or dogs because i liked it, rather than necessarily out of self defense (or starvation), most people would be rather disgusted. The industrialised nature of modern agriculture, like many other cruel things in our world, puts us at an arms length so comfortable that we often forget where it really comes from and how.
However, its like many things in life. Most people either don't think about it all that often or all that deeply OR they just dont really care. I do a lot of bad things i don't think about all that often but in a perfectly moral world i should care about and take action on. I'm pretty sure most of my clothes were made in a Bangladeshi sweat-shop. These electronics probably contain a lot of misery too. That said, i suppose its a bit easier to minimise meat consumption than it is electronics or clothes.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Swagadaktal on February 27, 2016, 10:55:06 pm
You don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinion, Donald Trump certainly isn't xD
I get that you're saying it's ok to express your opinions but can we not compare AceVce77 to donald trump pls (i know you didnt intend to but you ended up doing that lol :P )
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 27, 2016, 10:56:57 pm
Oh dude it's perfectly fine to post your opinions. I hope I didnt discourage you in my post, I was just simply joining the debate - my post wasn't emotionally fueled, more analytically viewing the arguments presented and the wording used.
If this wasnt in relation to my post and my ego is just that huge ignore this :P
You don't have to be sorry for expressing your opinion, Donald Trump certainly isn't xD
Besides you are right in saying that we animas think greater than plants, and hence we can eat plants. But you can't deny that humans are intellectually more capable than other animals, so that's why I think killing/eating (responsibly and without in humane treatment) animals is acceptable. That is my opinion.
Oh and I pick up a scent that Pi really LOVES his meat haha
Thanks for the posts guys! It really makes me feel a lot better. Also Swagadaktal, that post was referring to everyone :) Your post was definitely very helpful and allowed me to understand what people were thinking. cosine, thanks for your post also. It helps me understand your opinion easily. :)
Perhaps we should continue the discussion in a healthy way (I'm directing this at everyone). Let's not let this get too emotionally charged!
Cosine: Your point about intelligence is one that I've heard a lot. Chickens are known to show high-level reasoning skills - higher than that of an infant child or even a dog. They can even be 'smarter' than some disabled people. Would you rather eat a dog than a chicken? And if not, why not?
I don't have time to read the other arguments (maybe another time) but i have been a vegetarian for 16 years (since i was 8, long story, my own choice).
I think it's pretty fucked personally, that said, its not like i'll judge other people for it. Even moreso, i want people to be vegetarians because they believe in a set of ethical views, rather than them just being badgered into it by me. It reminds me this story of this couple being two different religions. To make the girl happy, the guy would convert but if you think about it, that's almost an insulting thing to do. You want a person to believe in something because they actually do think its the right thing.
Here are some basic facts. We don't need meat to survive, it is essentially a nice thing to have. Production of meat, especially modern agriculture, can and very often does, cause a great degree of pain, discomfort and stress to the animals. Thus, we are basically causing a large degree of pain and suffering to other sentient creatures over a luxury we want, rather than something we even need, i do find that a little fucked.
I think philosophically and ethically (but even just on a common level) people will have a hard time truly justifying causing suffering to another being because it gives them something they like, rather than something they need. Say if i went around stabbing peoples cats or dogs because i liked it, rather than necessarily out of self defense (or starvation), most people would be rather disgusted. The industrialised nature of modern agriculture, like many other cruel things in our world, puts us at an arms length so comfortable that we often forget where it really comes from and how.
However, its like many things in life. Most people either don't think about it all that often or all that deeply OR they just dont really care. I do a lot of bad things i don't think about all that often but in a perfectly moral world i should care about and take action on. I'm pretty sure most of my clothes were made in a Bangladeshi sweat-shop. These electronics probably contain a lot of misery too. That said, i suppose its a bit easier to minimise meat consumption than it is electronics or clothes.
I 100% agree with you slothpomba, what you're saying is basically what I'm thinking. I don't want people to become vegans/vegetarians because they're forced to - I want people to become vegans and vegetarians because they understand what will happen if they do, and genuinely WANT to make the change. It has to come from within.
All your points about how meat is non-essential, that it causes a lot of pain, and basically everything you wrote is 100% what I believe. You express my views perfectly - and in a less radical sense. :P
I get that you're saying it's ok to express your opinions but can we not compare AceVce77 to donald trump pls (i know you didnt intend to but you ended up doing that lol :P )
Thanks Swagadaktal! :) No offence taken by cosine, I don't think he meant it. :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Swagadaktal on February 27, 2016, 11:17:54 pm
Ok in terms of chicken shown to be intelligent, (using my psych 3/4 knowledge. I've just started learning about the brain, like legit just one period on it) - the brains of animals differ significantly from humans. They have different perceptions, different understanding of what's going on - like they're structurally different so it would be inaccurate to assume that they feel the same way that we do, unless you're talking about chimps because they're very similar.
This is what makes experiments on mice more ethical, they just don't have the same cognitive ability to quite digest what's going on
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: slothpomba on February 27, 2016, 11:23:29 pm
Ok in terms of chicken shown to be intelligent, (using my psych 3/4 knowledge. I've just started learning about the brain, like legit just one period on it) - the brains of animals differ significantly from humans. They have different perceptions, different understanding of what's going on - like they're structurally different so it would be inaccurate to assume that they feel the same way that we do, unless you're talking about chimps because they're very similar.
This is what makes experiments on mice more ethical, they just don't have the same cognitive ability to quite digest what's going on
Being intelligent is very different from being able to suffer or experience pain.
I have fairly good knowledge of neuroscience and we work with mice in my lab. We are very careful to not cause them pain or suffering, animals like mice (and by extension, cows, chickens and so on) can most definitely feel pain and experience suffering. They definitely have the neural responses (but even then it is obvious just with your eyes) relating to pain.
You can debate whether X or Y animal is intelligent to the cows come home but it is extremely uncontroversial that animals, pretty much every animal, can feel pain and that there is a species distinct level of "suffering" associated with it.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 27, 2016, 11:28:00 pm
Thanks for the posts guys! It really makes me feel a lot better. Also Swagadaktal, that post was referring to everyone :) Your post was definitely very helpful and allowed me to understand what people were thinking. cosine, thanks for your post also. It helps me understand your opinion easily. :)
Perhaps we should continue the discussion in a healthy way (I'm directing this at everyone). Let's not let this get too emotionally charged!
Cosine: Your point about intelligence is one that I've heard a lot. Chickens are known to show high-level reasoning skills - higher than that of an infant child or even a dog. They can even be 'smarter' than some disabled people. Would you rather eat a dog than a chicken? And if not, why not?
Thanks pi! ;D
I 100% agree with you slothpomba, what you're saying is basically what I'm thinking. I don't want people to become vegans/vegetarians because they're forced to - I want people to become vegans and vegetarians because they understand what will happen if they do, and genuinely WANT to make the change. It has to come from within.
All your points about how meat is non-essential, that it causes a lot of pain, and basically everything you wrote is 100% what I believe. You express my views perfectly - and in a less radical sense. :P
Thanks Swagadaktal! :) No offence taken by cosine, I don't think he meant it. :)
You're telling me an infant child is less smarter than a chicken. Yes, a baby that has just been born for less than 8 hours is not expected to out smart a chicken, which has been periodically living it's life, with its only goal to eat. How about put it this way, if we're comparing infants, then don't compare infant humans to adult chickens, compare new born chicks and new born humans, who is smarter? Neither, because smartness is partially genetic, but majorly a social evolution, hence the reason that humans tend to be smarter than other animals is through social evolution, adults pass down heir skills to their offspring and so on. Chickens do this to their chicks too, but at the end of the day a fully grown human is more intellectual than a fully grown chicken. You just compare the two.
Besides, the main reason that humans diverged from other animals and became smarter, and more biologically fit to survive, is because the late primates undertook a more nutritious diet, consisting of mainly meat products.
I'm not sure if anyone else covered this, but is it okay for you that other animals kill other animals in order to obtain their energy needs? In other words, what do you think of heterotrophic organisms? You have the power to stop humans from killing animals, but I don't think you have the power to stop lions from killing zebras, why?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Redoxify on February 27, 2016, 11:29:18 pm
People are given the choice to make their own decisions wether right or wrong you wanna not eat meat, good for you you wanna eat meat, good for you you wanna help animals, good for you you don't wanna help animals, good for you.
We are given a conscience for a reason, we choose to use it or not.
my 2 cents
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 27, 2016, 11:31:45 pm
If animals such as cows were intellectual, why don't they stand up for their own rights and protest against the slaughtering?
Why is it that humans have the ability to protest against eating meat, but animals like cows can't?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: slothpomba on February 27, 2016, 11:33:02 pm
Besides, the main reason that humans diverged from other animals and became smarter, and more biologically fit to survive, is because the late primates undertook a more nutritious diet, consisting of mainly meat products.
I actually see this repeated very often (especially so by Sam Neil, the Jurassic Park guy, in meat ads all those years ago). That said, i often wonder if its actually true or just one of those "received wisdom" things. Wouldn't happen to have any evidence on hand would you?
Either way, i think it is a fairly useless fact now. We're reached a point where we have become more developed and we certainly don't need meat in 2016. Whether we may have needed meat in 20,000 BC is of course, fairly irrelevant when one is debating, living and operating in 2016 AD.
I'm not sure if anyone else covered this, but is it okay for you that other animals kill other animals in order to obtain their energy needs? In other words, what do you think of heterotrophic organisms? You have the power to stop humans from killing animals, but I don't think you have the power to stop lions from killing zebras, why?
Humans have morality and ethical agency. We have the ability to tell right from wrong and make a choice on the matter. Likewise, it may very well be that some animals do indeed require meat to survive (don't feed your cat a vegan diet for instance) but, it is quite clear and established that humans do not need to eat a diet containing meat (indeed, for almost all of human history, meat was a luxury, especially for the people who were poor in society).
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 27, 2016, 11:38:12 pm
I actually see this repeated very often (especially so by Sam Neil, the Jurassic Park guy, in meat ads all those years ago). That said, i often wonder if its actually true or just one of those "received wisdom" things. Wouldn't happen to have any evidence on hand would you?
Either way, i think it is a fairly useless fact now. We're reached a point where we have become more developed and we certainly don't need meat in 2016. Whether we may have needed meat in 20,000 BC is of course, fairly irrelevant when one is debating, living and operating in 2016 AD.
Humans have morality and ethical agency. We have the ability to tell right from wrong and make a choice on the matter. Likewise, it may very well be that some animals do indeed require meat to survive (don't feed your cat a vegan diet for instance) but, it is quite clear and established that humans do not need to eat a diet containing meat (indeed, for almost all of human history, meat was a luxury, especially for the people who were poor in society).
No offence buddy, but because consuming meat is not 'needed' to survive is quite a weak argument. Humans don't need to do many things in order to survive, such as bathing, so what, are we in a world where people will protest against having showers because too much water is being wasted, because you don't need to clean yourself to survive, right?
It just saddens me that people care more about saving animals and their rights more than our own species. How about we solve our own issues first, end the wars and sufferings, of our fellow humans, and maybe then I can even think about the rights of animals.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: slothpomba on February 27, 2016, 11:50:06 pm
No offence buddy, but because consuming meat is not 'needed' to survive is quite a weak argument. Humans don't need to do many things in order to survive, such as bathing, so what, are we in a world where people will protest against having showers because too much water is being wasted, because you don't need to clean yourself to survive, right?
Showering does not directly cause suffering. The process of animal agriculture, mostly often does. If you're willing to contend its OK to cause pain and suffering to an animal for something you want, rather than something you need, then you will have to argue for it.
It's abundantly obvious having a shower is quite different in a philosophical ethical sense than raising animals and slaughtering them for a luxury item. The underlying ethical choices and implications aren't even remotely similar.
Quote
It just saddens me that people care more about saving animals and their rights more than our own species. How about we solve our own issues first, end the wars and sufferings, of our fellow humans, and maybe then I can even think about the rights of animals.
I think this is weak argument on close analysis. It has nothing to do with the morality surrounding the eating of meat. Likewise, it is extremely silly to assume this is a zero sum scenario. If you truly believe that we can only fix one issue at once, i would like to see you argue in favour of this. Rather, i contend that you can both be kind to or care about animal suffering and also care about and aim towards alleviating human suffering. If you wish to argue the opposite, you may go ahead.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 27, 2016, 11:57:05 pm
Showering does not directly cause suffering. The process of animal agriculture, mostly often does. If you're willing to contend its OK to cause pain and suffering to an animal for something you want, rather than something you need, then you will have to argue for it.
It's abundantly obvious having a shower is quite different in a philosophical ethical sense than raising animals and slaughtering them for a luxury item. The underlying ethical choices and implications aren't even remotely similar.
I think this is weak argument on close analysis. It has nothing to do with the morality surrounding the eating of meat. Likewise, it is extremely silly to assume this is a zero sum scenario. If you truly believe that we can only fix one issue at once, i would like to see you argue in favour of this. Rather, i contend that you can both be kind to or care about animal suffering and also care about and aim towards alleviating human suffering. If you wish to argue the opposite, you may go ahead.
I think it's a brilliant argument. It's not directed to eating meat, it sounds biased as you word it. It's aimed at helping animals and showing a large alert for them rather than our own species. Sure we can do both at the same time, but why? If we all put in 100% effort into helping our own homeless and suffering, the problem would eradicate much quicker. Obviously we care about ourselves more, so save our problem first then care about other animals problems.
But ask yourself this, why don't the cows save their own problem? Why don't you see cows protesting against animal cruelty and equality? Why don't chickens stand up for themselves, like we do for them? Why don't chickens stand up for the homeless and suffering humans, do they not care about us, just like we care about them?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 28, 2016, 12:06:57 am
I'm not sure if anyone else covered this, but is it okay for you that other animals kill other animals in order to obtain their energy needs? In other words, what do you think of heterotrophic organisms? You have the power to stop humans from killing animals, but I don't think you have the power to stop lions from killing zebras, why?
Yes. That is 100% okay with me. Because, lions ONLY eat zebras, impalas, etc. whereas humans can definitely survive on a diet of plant-based products. There is no need for them to eat meat. And if eating meat causes more pain and suffering in the world, then why do it?
But ask yourself this, why don't the cows save their own problem? Why don't you see cows protesting against animal cruelty and equality? Why don't chickens stand up for themselves, like we do for them? Why don't chickens stand up for the homeless and suffering humans, do they not care about us, just like we care about them?
If animals such as cows were intellectual, why don't they stand up for their own rights and protest against the slaughtering?
Why is it that humans have the ability to protest against eating meat, but animals like cows can't?
Well, I mean, they can't exactly speak English, can they? (or any other human language for that matter). But they do try to tell you to stop. When they are being loaded into the trucks, they are crying out to be let out of the hellhole. When a mother cow gives birth to a calf and it is taken away from her, she follows the truck as far as she can. They both cry for weeks, even months after being separated to be reunited again. It is absolutely heartbreaking. When you hear an animal cry out for its baby, you know you are experiencing a true act of suffering. Whether it is a human mother, a cow mother or a pig mother, we all suffer the same when our babies are taken from us. You think they don't care? You think they want to die? You think they're not crying out for their lives? If so, you're not listening hard enough.
It just saddens me that people care more about saving animals and their rights more than our own species. How about we solve our own issues first, end the wars and sufferings, of our fellow humans, and maybe then I can even think about the rights of animals.
I agree with slothpomba. Also, how can we expect to treat fellow humans well when we can't be expected to treat fellow animals well? Mahatma Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." And this is certainly true. All we need is compassion for all beings. Seriously, is a little compassion for the beings we are brutally murdering a little too much to ask? Also, about you saying we should end wars and suffering first - at least wars have an objective. People are fighting for something. What are we killing animals for? A temporary moment of taste bud pleasure? I'm not saying that wars aren't bad. But killing animals for a reason like that is just crazy.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 28, 2016, 12:14:33 am
Yes. That is 100% okay with me. Because, lions ONLY eat zebras, impalas, etc. whereas humans can definitely survive on a diet of plant-based products. There is no need for them to eat meat. And if eating meat causes more pain and suffering in the world, then why do it?
Well, I mean, they can't exactly speak English, can they? (or any other human language for that matter). But they do try to tell you to stop. When they are being loaded into the trucks, they are crying out to be let out of the hellhole. When a mother cow gives birth to a calf and it is taken away from her, she follows the truck as far as she can. They both cry for weeks, even months after being separated to be reunited again. It is absolutely heartbreaking. When you hear an animal cry out for its baby, you know you are experiencing a true act of suffering. Whether it is a human mother, a cow mother or a pig mother, we all suffer the same when our babies are taken from us. You think they don't care? You think they want to die? You think they're not crying out for their lives? If so, you're not listening hard enough.
I agree with slothpomba. Also, how can we expect to treat fellow humans well when we can't be expected to treat fellow animals well? Mahatma Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." And this is certainly true. All we need is compassion for all beings. Seriously, is a little compassion for the beings we are brutally murdering a little too much to ask? Also, about you saying we should end wars and suffering first - at least wars have an objective. People are fighting for something. What are we killing animals for? A temporary moment of taste bud pleasure? I'm not saying that wars aren't bad. But killing animals for a reason like that is just crazy.
Okay so you're saying that wars are totally fine because they have a reasoning, and the MILLIONS of Syrian refugees suffering and starving to death is all good, because at least there was a reason, right? Haha, you will only know what war feels like when you experience it, you hear that pin drop? In Iraq, that could've been the pin of a greenade, quick, run.
Honestly can not believe that you think war and killing humans is fine because there's a reason behind it. I don't even want to continue this argument anymore. Go live as a refugee and then tell me what the objevtive behind your misery is.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 28, 2016, 12:27:58 am
Okay so you're saying that wars are totally fine because they have a reasoning, and the MILLIONS of Syrian refugees suffering and starving to death is all good, because at least there was a reason, right? Haha, you will only know what war feels like when you experience it, you hear that pin drop? In Iraq, that could've been the pin of a greenade, quick, run.
Honestly can not believe that you think war and killing humans is fine because there's a reason behind it. I don't even want to continue this argument anymore. Go live as a refugee and then tell me what the objevtive behind your misery is.
Woaaah okay cosine, did you not read my comment? Read it again. Here is what I wrote if you can't find it, because I knew you would write this:
So, YES, wars are horrible. Of course they are! That's not even what I posted???. Tell me, at what point did I ever say "war and killing humans is fine"?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: keltingmeith on February 28, 2016, 12:29:18 am
I have now started to issue warnings for some of the things being said in this topic - please stray from controversial analogies, or saying things that might make others upset. At the same time, if someone says something upsetting, don't have a knee-jerk reaction, just take a breather. Thank you.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 28, 2016, 12:31:03 am
And if eating meat causes more pain and suffering in the world, then why do it?
Growing crops won't cause pain and suffering to animals? Destroying their natural habitats to grow things is perfectly a-ok? Everything we do for ourselves will have a negative impact on some group of animals, EVERYTHING. We may not be cutting their heads off, but we're still hurting them and they're still suffering, it is inevitable, it's the cycle of life.
Just by living we're doing harm to some group ALL THE TIME. Look at the harm you may be doing right now, using energy from what is likely a coal energy source to fuel your computer as you're online here or the car you take to school each morning: you're raising global temperatures, killing off our arctic wildlife, killing our aquatic life. The clothes you've got in your room: potentially endorsing products of child labour, endorsing underpayment to people in the bottom percentage of society. The land you're living on: taken from the land of Indigenous people, and from animals before them. I could go on, but the message here is everything we do and have done will have caused suffering.
The only way to fully ethically live is to not live at all.
Whether it is a human mother, a cow mother or a pig mother, we all suffer the same when our babies are taken from us. You think they don't care? You think they want to die? You think they're not crying out for their lives? If so, you're not listening hard enough.
You don't think that happens when a pack of lions targets the baby gazelle to be feasted on for the night? Suffering happens ALL the time. I'm 'listening' hard, and it's spelling out to me: 't-h-i-s--i-s--l-i-f-e'. It just happens, and as above, it is going to happen with everything we do.
Also, about you saying we should end wars and suffering first - at least wars have an objective. People are fighting for something. What are we killing animals for? A temporary moment of taste bud pleasure? I'm not saying that wars aren't bad. But killing animals for a reason like that is just crazy.
This is another poor comparison :P Why does the reason for eating meat have to be something divine and profound (not to say starting a war is either of those...)? We like the taste, that's a perfectly valid reason. Selfish reason? Sure, but valid nonetheless.
If we as humans only did what we "needed" and not what we "wanted", the world would be a much simpler place. But the fact is, we've evolved to have wants on top of our needs. Sure, if we take everything that sloth said as the gospel truth in that we don't need meat in 2016... well we don't need billions of other things, many of which are doing far more harm to the world than eating meat. I see no passionate campaigns there from anyone here.
We're selfish, life is selfish, evolution is selfish.
I agree with slothpomba. Also, how can we expect to treat fellow humans well when we can't be expected to treat fellow animals well? Mahatma Gandhi said "The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated." And this is certainly true. All we need is compassion for all beings. Seriously, is a little compassion for the beings we are brutally murdering a little too much to ask?
I agree, treat our animals to the best we can. Hence, I think we're now both in agreement that humane "non-brutal" killing of animals is completely fine then? :D
I have now started to issue warnings for some of the things being said in this topic - please stray from controversial analogies, or saying things that might make others upset. At the same time, if someone says something upsetting, don't have a knee-jerk reaction, just take a breather. Thank you.
Run!
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 28, 2016, 12:36:21 am
at least wars have an objective. People are fighting for something.
People are fighting for something, and people are dying for nothing.
It's not called a knee-jerk reaction. It's called experience, something that you are fortunate enough to not endure.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: heart on February 28, 2016, 01:24:42 am
not vegetarian/vegan myself but have watched the documentary cowspiracy recently and it really did inform me about the great negative impact the average meat eating diet can have. (http://static1.squarespace.com/static/544dc5a1e4b07e8995e3effa/t/54e4d927e4b0aaf066abfcf0/1424283943008/Cowspiracy-Infographic-Metric.png)
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 28, 2016, 11:09:32 am
All I'm saying is, if you had the chance to make a difference and save thousands of lives simply by not eating meat and dairy, why wouldn't you? ???
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 28, 2016, 11:49:28 am
All I'm saying is, if you had the chance to make a difference and save thousands of lives simply by not eating meat and dairy, why wouldn't you? ???
Because we are omnivores that like the taste and the nutritional benefits (such as Vitamin B12, which pretty much only comes from animal meat or products, although many foods are fortified with it now... thanks to vegos...) of those products. Just like people like leather from the hide of cows, or people like taking medicines to stay alive that were tested on animals. I do not understand why you refuse to accept these as valid reasons, humans do things "because we want to" all the time. As long as we're buying from and promoting humane practices, I'm fine with it on every level.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: cosine on February 28, 2016, 12:03:48 pm
All I'm saying is, if you had the chance to make a difference and save thousands of lives simply by protesting against wars, why wouldn't you?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: anna.xo on February 28, 2016, 01:14:41 pm
I haven't read this discussion apart from the first couple pages, so apologies if I'm talking about something completely irrelevant.
First off, I'm a vegetarian and have been my entire life. To be completely clear; not due to a moral, ethical or religious base.
One thing that you have to realize is that the debate for vegetarianism/veganism vs carnivorism is quite unbalanced mostly due to the fact that studies and research undertaken on this topic has shown that those practicing vegetarianism are generally 'healthier'; more health conscious, less likely to be smoking or excessively drinking, more fitness inclined and so on.
In today's society, as most of you here would have noticed, there is a massive health craze. A lot of people are turning to vegetarianism and veganism in the mistaken belief that it is a less fat based diet meaning that it is 'healthier'. Simply put, this is not true. Yes, meat does contain fat and other unhealthy elements, however it also contains a lot of protein and other important minerals that are necessary for good health. Some of these vitamins and minerals such as cobalamin aren't found in other foods unless fortified and even then, absorption is not as effective. This is why supplements are essential on a vegetarian diet and since many people on these diets don't take the necessary supplements, they aren't actually helping their bodies or being 'healthier'.
As far as how animals are killed, I don't think that's particularly important. Yes, animals are being killed for our consumption and I can see how people believe this to be wrong. I however, believe that the act starts to become 'wrong' when you kill an animal, create the meat and then waste so much of the animal. If you're going to throw away half of the meat of the animal you just killed, that is a complete joke and the act becomes completely inhumane.
I don't disagree with the notion of eating meat because 'it tastes good'. Ultimately, it's a free country and anyone can do anything they like with their own life. As long as one isn't pushing their own beliefs onto others, I don't really see anything wrong with justifying a decision that way; ultimately humans are selfish creatures.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Señor on February 28, 2016, 01:42:01 pm
All I'm saying is, if you had the chance to make a difference and save thousands of lives simply by not eating meat and dairy, why wouldn't you? ???
You talk as if these cows are humans. Let me put it in perspective; If i called someone an animal they would be offended.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Jesshope257 on February 28, 2016, 05:22:32 pm
Hey guys! I'm a vegetarian no dairy myself but I was wondering about everyone's opinion on "culling" and the different 'cullings". I don't really know what to think. I'm very against shark culling. However things like cane toad culling is where I get iffy. I wish we could just catch all the cane toads and take them back to their old habitat. This isn't a viable option, though and as such I'm undecided on the topic.
What's everyone elses thoughts on culling?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 28, 2016, 06:12:10 pm
You talk as if these cows are humans. Let me put it in perspective; If i called someone an animal they would be offended.
I treat animals as humans. We are all living beings. I see no difference between me, you, a cow, a pig, a chicken, a horse, an elephant. And that should not be taken as an offense. You may find being called an animal offensive, but I find it a compliment. At least they don't commit mass murder.
Hey guys! I'm a vegetarian no dairy myself but I was wondering about everyone's opinion on "culling" and the different 'cullings". I don't really know what to think. I'm very against shark culling. However things like cane toad culling is where I get iffy. I wish we could just catch all the cane toads and take them back to their old habitat. This isn't a viable option, though and as such I'm undecided on the topic.
What's everyone elses thoughts on culling?
Hmm, great point! Yes like you I'm against shark culling but I haven't thought about the cane toad culling...one one hand they are still animals and deserve to live, but on the other hand they are literally bringing the entire ecosystem down. So I'm not sure. :-\
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 29, 2016, 06:06:11 pm
I'm for culling if there is a reason, eg. an imbalance in the ecosystem as is the case with cane toads, or culling the wild cats in the outback, etc.. Although the distinction probably doesn't need to be made, I'm not in favour of poaching.
Hmm, great point! Yes like you I'm against shark culling but I haven't thought about the cane toad culling...one one hand they are still animals and deserve to live, but on the other hand they are literally bringing the entire ecosystem down. So I'm not sure. :-\
Honestly surprised you have a dilemma here hahaha :P By your previous posts, killing a cane toad would be akin to killing your neighbour? (see how ridiculous that analogy sounds now?)
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Deshouka on February 29, 2016, 06:46:25 pm
"So the ~25% of people who are tolerant towards milk actually have mutated genes." Tld;dr - drinking milk is not actually biologically natural! "I see no difference between me, you, a cow, a pig, a chicken, a horse, an elephant. And that should not be taken as an offense. You may find being called an animal offensive, but I find it a compliment." "Yes like you I'm against shark culling but I haven't thought about the cane toad culling...one one hand they are still animals and deserve to live, but on the other hand they are literally bringing the entire ecosystem down. So I'm not sure."
I'm sorry, but comments like these shows you how ignorant you are in Biology. No one's going to take you seriously if you make absurd statements like these.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 29, 2016, 06:53:08 pm
"So the ~25% of people who are tolerant towards milk actually have mutated genes." Tld;dr - drinking milk is not actually biologically natural! "I see no difference between me, you, a cow, a pig, a chicken, a horse, an elephant. And that should not be taken as an offense. You may find being called an animal offensive, but I find it a compliment." "Yes like you I'm against shark culling but I haven't thought about the cane toad culling...one one hand they are still animals and deserve to live, but on the other hand they are literally bringing the entire ecosystem down. So I'm not sure."
I'm sorry, but comments like these shows you how ignorant you are in Biology. No one's going to take you seriously if you make absurd statements like these.
The first one is true, for people after they have been weaned off human milk. The body stops producing lactase as it is not needed, but some lines of ancestry actually mutated and their lactase production continued. Due to this that smaller percentage of people can tolerate milk. The second one is my opinion and cannot be said to be true or false. The third one is also my opinion about weighing up the total damage to the ecosystem. Is it worth it or is it not? That is also a matter of opinion and cannot be said to be true or false.
I'm for culling if there is a reason, eg. an imbalance in the ecosystem as is the case with cane toads, or culling the wild cats in the outback, etc.. Although the distinction probably doesn't need to be made, I'm not in favour of poaching.
Honestly surprised you have a dilemma here hahaha :P By your previous posts, killing a cane toad would be akin to killing your neighbour? (see how ridiculous that analogy sounds now?)
We have to look at the whole picture - if we don't kill the cane toads, the entire ecosystem is at risk of falling. But on the other hand the cane toads still deserve to live. That's why I have the dilemma.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: appleandbee on February 29, 2016, 07:05:47 pm
"So the ~25% of people who are tolerant towards milk actually have mutated genes." Tld;dr - drinking milk is not actually biologically natural! "I see no difference between me, you, a cow, a pig, a chicken, a horse, an elephant. And that should not be taken as an offense. You may find being called an animal offensive, but I find it a compliment." "Yes like you I'm against shark culling but I haven't thought about the cane toad culling...one one hand they are still animals and deserve to live, but on the other hand theey are literally bringing the entire ecosystem down. So I'm not sure."
I'm sorry, but comments like these shows you how ignorant you are in Biology. No one's going to take you seriously if you make absurd statements like these.
Yeah, especially the comment about being called an animal a complement as really off. Most people in society consider it rude and offensive (the people that say such things intended it to be). Since you claim to love debating, you should avoid polarizing analogies and examples as well as facts that aren't scientifically proven (actually an adjudicator my self btw).
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 29, 2016, 07:06:58 pm
I think the real dilemma is that there are inconsistencies and logical fallacies in your beliefs. While some might say your views are very idealistic and "ethical" and could apply to some made-up fantasy world where cows and cane toads also go to school, drive cars and pay taxes, they couldn't possibly apply to the real world that we actually live in at all :P
Still interested on an earlier comment I made about taking medicines. Many, if not all, are tested on animals at some point (and those animals are "murdered" afterwards), and even when they get to human trials many more animals have been murdered in the process (accounting for drugs that don't pass early stages etc.). Are you in favour of boycotting Western medicines? From what you've said so far, I'm exepecting an "absolutely" in response, but interested to see if you have another "dilemma" here :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 29, 2016, 07:10:45 pm
Yeah, especially the comment about being called an animal a complement as really off. Most people in society consider it rude and offensive (the people that say such things intended it to be). Since you claim to love debating, you should avoid polarizing analogies and examples as well as facts that aren't scientifically proven (actually an adjudicator my self btw).
I think the real dilemma is that there are inconsistencies and logical fallacies in your beliefs. While some might say your views are very idealistic and "ethical" and could apply to some made-up fantasy world where cows and cane toads also go to school, drive cars and pay taxes, they couldn't possibly apply to the real world that we actually live in at all :P
Logical fallacies? Like what? I never said that cows and cane toads should go to school, drive cars and pay taxes. :P
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 29, 2016, 07:14:17 pm
Logical fallacies? Like what? I never said that cows and cane toads should go to school, drive cars and pay taxes. :P
But why shouldn't they if they're on par with humans in your eyes? It's taking things to the extreme, but why not? If a human life = an animal life, what's the issue?
I made an edit to my above post which I'm keen to hear about too:
Still interested on an earlier comment I made about taking medicines. Many, if not all, are tested on animals at some point (and those animals are "murdered" afterwards), and even when they get to human trials many more animals have been murdered in the process (accounting for drugs that don't pass early stages etc.). Are you in favour of boycotting Western medicines? From what you've said so far, I'm exepecting an "absolutely" in response, but interested to see if you have another "dilemma" here :)
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 29, 2016, 07:24:17 pm
But why shouldn't they if they're on par with humans in your eyes? It's taking things to the extreme, but why not? If a human life = an animal life, what's the issue?
Because animals have their own lives, humans have their own lives. You want humans to live in the forests, go running around in the jungle? No. Just as horses shouldn't live in swamps, crocodiles shouldn't live on farms, etc. See how I'm not generalising 'animals' here? Every species is different. But overall, animals are meant to live without fear of persecution, just as humans. That's all I'm saying. Lol, I'm not saying their lives should be exactly the same xD Equal =/= same!
I made an edit to my above post which I'm keen to hear about too:
Nope, no dilemma this time. I am definitely against testing on animals. See, eating things like meat (including chicken and fish) increase the risk of things like cancer, heart disease, etc. whereas eating foods like lentils, beans or peas decreases the risk. We kill animals to eat them, then get all these diseases, then harm more animals to find cures for these diseases, and it goes on and on. It's absolutely cruel in my opinion to test on animals, and then murder - yes, murder - them. *http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/cancer-the-meatdisease-connection.html
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 29, 2016, 07:34:20 pm
Because animals have their own lives, humans have their own lives. You want humans to live in the forests, go running around in the jungle? No. Just as horses shouldn't live in swamps, crocodiles shouldn't live on farms, etc. See how I'm not generalising 'animals' here? Every species is different.
I agree, they're different. Thank-you for proving my point.
Nope, no dilemma this time. I am definitely against testing on animals.
You didn't really answer the question. So because Western medicines are tested on animals right now, you personally will not be using Western medicines if you get sick? And furthermore, you personally advocate people abandon Western medicines until they are not tested on animals? It's a yes or no question (to each) :) And if 'no', why?
See, eating things like meat (including chicken and fish) increase the risk of things like cancer, heart disease, etc. whereas eating foods like lentils, beans or peas decreases the risk.
I'm sorry, but various foods increase AND decrease risks of various conditions (eg. some may increase risk of cancer X but decrease it of cancer Y, etc.), and in moderation, are harmless. Get your facts straight. We're having a steak, not eating lard or uranium, calm down buddy.
We kill animals to eat them, then get all these diseases, then harm more animals to find cures for these diseases, and it goes on and on. It's absolutely cruel in my opinion to test on animals, and then murder - yes, murder - them. *http://www.diseaseproof.com/archives/cancer-the-meatdisease-connection.html
We don't "get them" from eating meat, what an absurd claim. They may increase our risk (and also decrease it in other areas)... as do billions of other things (eg. sitting down). It's a RISK, not a CAUSE.
Maybe if you actually go and read some peer-reviewed journals instead of click-bait articles some vegan with 10k followers is posting on Instagram aimed at people who are about 12 years old, you'll realise these things.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: ShortBlackChick on February 29, 2016, 07:46:15 pm
Because animals have their own lives, humans have their own lives. You want humans to live in the forests, go running around in the jungle? No. Just as horses shouldn't live in swamps, crocodiles shouldn't live on farms, etc. See how I'm not generalising 'animals' here? Every species is different. But overall, animals are meant to live without fear of persecution, just as humans. That's all I'm saying. Lol, I'm not saying their lives should be exactly the same xD Equal =/= same!
I'm kind of imagining you living in the jungle or a forest though, because I sure can't imagine you living in a house. Like so many ants and worms and stuff would be killed in the making of your house. For all I know your life consists of standing in one spot eating vegetables because I cant imagine the murder you'd commit by moving around and living really.
See the thing is you're seeing the world in an entirely black and white manner, but in reality there are many many many shades of grey that obscure our morals. But most people seem to draw lines between what they perceive as right and wrong, but all we can determine from what you've said is that you've created some obscure bottomless hole of morality where you're going to end up with the argument that EVERYTHING you do is wrong, especially with your generalised statements. You havent drawn the line anywhere. Except for cane toads
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on February 29, 2016, 07:58:05 pm
I agree, they're different. Thank-you for proving my point.
Hey, no problem. But what you're saying is, because another being is of a different species, it's okay to torture and murder them as long as we get that momentary sense of taste-bud pleasure. What kind of messed up logic is that? What I don't understand, and what no one has answered here, is why you think it's okay to do this. Think about this for a second - what if you were the cow/chicken/sheep/pig, etc.? Would you want this? If no, then isn't that just a *tiny* bit hypocritical?
Nope. Here's an example. Say if there were a class of students, and one was a really good student and the others were average. If the teacher decides to treat them all equally, she would make sure they were all marked using the same criteria, given an equal chance to succeed, and give them equal amounts of her attention. She would not, however, give them all the same mark, because then they are not treated equally. If she gave them all the same mark, the average kids are being treated better than the smarter kid, so the treatment is not equal although all their grades might be the same. Make sense?
You didn't really answer the question. So because Western medicines are tested on animals right now, you personally will not be using Western medicines if you get sick? And furthermore, you personally advocate people abandon Western medicines until they are not tested on animals? It's a yes or no question (to each) :) And if 'no', why?
Actually, I don't use Western medicines very much at all (like panadol, etc.) I did when I was a kid. My family and I now use herbal medicines, green tea, and Ayurvedic medicine. :) All natural!
I'm sorry, but various foods increase AND decrease risks of various conditions (eg. some may increase risk of cancer X but decrease it of cancer Y, etc.), and in moderation, are harmless. Get your facts straight. We're having a steak, not eating lard or uranium, calm down buddy.
I've tried looking for evidence that meat can decrease the risk of getting cancer and have found none. Just out of curiosity, do you know of any examples? Also, ever heard of the risk of cancer being increased by lentils? Beans? Peas, carrots, broccoli, spinach? Any of these? If so I'd love to hear of them!
We don't "get them" from eating meat, what an absurd claim. They may increase our risk (and also decrease it in other areas)... as do billions of other things (eg. sitting down). It's a RISK, not a CAUSE.
Maybe if you actually go and read some peer-reviewed journals instead of click-bait articles some vegan with 10k followers is posting on Instagram aimed at people who are about 12 years old, you'll realise these things.
You got me there! Nah pi, this was just a typo. I'm trying to write quickly because I have to study for SACs soon. In my previous posts I have said 'risk' and not 'cause'. Excuse my mistake. :P
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on February 29, 2016, 08:24:27 pm
Hey, no problem. But what you're saying is, because another being is of a different species, it's okay to torture and murder them as long as we get that momentary sense of taste-bud pleasure. What kind of messed up logic is that? What I don't understand, and what no one has answered here, is why you think it's okay to do this.
Everyone has answered you. We value meat's taste and nutritional value (eg. Vitamin b12 and mentioned earlier) over the feelings of animals which we believe to be humanely killed for our consumption.
Think about this for a second - what if you were the cow/chicken/sheep/pig, etc.? Would you want this? If no, then isn't that just a *tiny* bit hypocritical?
If you were a tree would you want someone cutting off bits of your arms (eg. apples)? It's irrelevant, I'm not a cow. I don't even know what cows think, no one does.
Here's an example. Say if there were a class of students, and one was a really good student and the others were average. If the teacher decides to treat them all equally, she would make sure they were all marked using the same criteria, given an equal chance to succeed, and give them equal amounts of her attention. She would not, however, give them all the same mark, because then they are not treated equally. If she gave them all the same mark, the average kids are being treated better than the smarter kid, so the treatment is not equal although all their grades might be the same. Make sense?
Makes complete sense, in your example: - People being treated equal = people being treated the same - People not getting same marks = people not getting marked 'equally' = people not getting the 'same' mark
Actually, I don't use Western medicines very much at all (like panadol, etc.) I did when I was a kid. My family and I now use herbal medicines, green tea, and Ayurvedic medicine. :) All natural!
Didn't give a yes/no (probably because you realised it was almost a suicidal stance to say "no"), but this explains soooooooooooo much. Given vaccinations are tested on animals you're no doubt anti-vax too? Now I know who I'm talking to, you're one of /those/ people ;)
Explains why it feels like this to talk to you hahaha (edit: I'm the person): (http://blog.eternalvigilance.me/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Talking-to-Brick-Wall.jpg)
For the record, did you know milk is commonly used in Aurvedic medicine. Milk, for your interest, is from animals. They also use animal bones commonly too, and usually they don't wait for the animals to die of natural causes. So much murder in Aurevidic medicine!
Also, hopefully using those sorts of "medicines" works out for your family, I honestly (not sarcastic) wish them luck if they hope to use nothing else :)
I've tried looking for evidence that meat can decrease the risk of getting cancer and have found none. Just out of curiosity, do you know of any examples?
Also, ever heard of the risk of cancer being increased by lentils? Beans? Peas, carrots, broccoli, spinach? Any of these? If so I'd love to hear of them!
Honestly can't think of any, but the pesticides used on fruits have been associated with increased risks of cancer. Furthermore, many fruits contain a lot of sugar and this can be a risk for heart disease.
But like meat, in moderation, is a negligible risk.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: heart on March 01, 2016, 08:13:05 pm
I wouldn't trust anyone who isn't either an accredited dietitian or a published scientist with a phd in the field. Tim Crowe is both and I strongly recommend checking him out: https://www.facebook.com/thinkingnutrition/?fref=ts
If you have your own religious purposes then I've got nothing to add.
For the record, I love my meat but I quit milk last year because I was advised against it by the head of nutrition at RMIT.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: ShortBlackChick on March 13, 2016, 03:49:26 pm
I have a question.
Can vegetarians or vegans who are so for moral/ethical reasons, be pro-abortion?
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: heart on March 14, 2016, 12:24:30 am
Can vegetarians or vegans who are so for moral/ethical reasons, be pro-abortion?
Not sure, but one of the questions that being vegan raises is, why? As I understand, they choose not to eat meat, dairy or any products derived from animals, but where is the line drawn between being alive, or not? Are fetus's not sentient and alive? Are they not valued to the same standards they set for other animals? You can't think you value the life of all species if you think killing one, but not the other is ok. I would assume therefore, to be truly vegan you have to be pro-life. So in being pro-abortion would be hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: carver on April 22, 2016, 02:26:34 pm
Today I felt like I wanted to have some healthy discussions about what you think about eating meat and dairy. Do you think it's healthy? Do you think it's ethical? Why do you do it? etc. Please be honest! I'm a vegetarian so I'm going to be putting my points out there (against meat/dairy) as well so just remember I'm not attacking you! I just love debating a lot. But everything I say, I mean honestly. :)
Looking forward to hearing your points!! :D
Because lamb chops, barbecues and chicken wings exist
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on April 24, 2016, 10:01:44 am
Well, you can also account for the fact that many health/ fitness fanatics believe meat is a valuable source of protien (which is quite true).
You're rationalising to someone who basically previously admitted to not believing in Western medicines and immunisations because they were tested on animals (other than humans) at some stage. Winning the battle but always losing the war.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on April 24, 2016, 05:56:29 pm
Well, you can also account for the fact that many health/ fitness fanatics believe meat is a valuable source of protien (which is quite true).
"Contrary to the misinformation spewed forth by uninformed people, there is no shortage of protein in a vegan diet. All amino acids are found in the plant kingdom with alfalfa sprouts, almonds, bananas, bean sprouts, brazil nuts, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, coconuts, corn, dates, eggplant, filberts, goji berries, okra, pecans, soy, spirulina (seaweed), squash, sunflower seeds, sweet potatoes, tempeh (fermented soy), tomatoes, walnuts and wheatgrass being complete proteins. However, consuming all amino acids at one meal is unnecessary. Meat, dairy and egg-eaters receive NO benefit from eating complete animal-based proteins except having a complete chance at cancer, osteoporosis and a host of other ailments. Beans, brown rice, cacao/chocolate (genuine cacao/chocolate is a bean so it's naturally vegan), grains (all), hemp (milk/oil/powder/seed), lentils, nuts (all), seeds (all), vegetables (all), and all vegan meats/dairy are great sources of protein, too. Even fruit has around 5 percent protein, which is the same amount of protein human babies receive from mother's breast milk. For a detailed list of protein-rich foods, check out this chart from the Vegetarian Resource Group." - http://adaptt.org/veganism.html# ('Protein and Trans Fatty Acids' Section)
You're rationalising to someone who basically previously admitted to not believing in Western medicines and immunisations because they were tested on animals (other than humans) at some stage. Winning the battle but always losing the war.
If everyone stopped eating stuff that's bad for your body, there wouldn't be any need for vaccinations at all. Literally, we kill animals to eat them, develop a higher risk of contracting diseases, then kill more animals by testing on them to cure these diseases. It's quite stupid, you don't have to be a genius to realise that. To add, I do have vaccines, because it is my parents' decision for now whether or not I have them. Some of my friends don't have vaccines. But it seems silly to me that we are focussing on vaccines when that isn't even the brunt of the problem. Sure, I have vaccines. But is that really the problem here? Look for the root of the problem. If we get rid of vaccines, people WILL die, because they'll keep eating meat, dairy and eggs. But if we get rid of meat dairy and eggs, we get rid of the (increased risk of) diseases as well as the vaccines (as they won't be needed to such a great degree).
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on April 24, 2016, 06:10:57 pm
If everyone stopped eating stuff that's bad for your body, there wouldn't be any need for vaccinations at all. Literally, we kill animals to eat them, develop a higher risk of contracting diseases, then kill more animals by testing on them to cure these diseases. It's quite stupid, you don't have to be a genius to realise that.
You wanna chuck someone "stupid" like me a peer-reviewed source to back up that bold claim? People eating "healthily" by your standards won't get sick from diseases we vaccinate from at all?
What a load of old tosh.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on April 24, 2016, 06:33:38 pm
You wanna chuck someone "stupid" like me a peer-reviewed source to back up that bold claim? People eating "healthily" by your standards won't get sick from diseases we vaccinate from at all?
What a load of old tosh.
I didn't call you stupid, I called the apparent 'necessity' of vaccines stupid. Also, I said 'higher risk of contracting diseases', not that being vegan would completely erase diseases.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on April 24, 2016, 06:38:57 pm
You literally said "there wouldn't be any need for vaccinations at all". Which is obviously completely unfounded given you didn't (and can't) provide a peer-reviewed source that isn't from some dubious website like vegansforlife.com or asparagusisbetterthanbeef.org or something. The fact that you stand by not vaccinating disgusts me and makes you a danger to the community in my eyes.
You think that we "meat-eaters" are part of the problem, when in reality you should be looking into the mirror on this one. If meat-eating was the source of many infections etc, then that damage was done thousands of years ago, harping on about it now it honestly illogical, ridiculous, and unproductive.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: geminii on April 24, 2016, 06:43:39 pm
You literally said "there wouldn't be any need for vaccinations at all". Which is obviously completely unfounded given you didn't (and can't) provide a peer-reviewed source that isn't from some dubious website like vegansforlife.com or asparagusisbetterthanbeef.org or something. The fact that you stand by not vaccinating disgusts me and makes you a danger to the community in my eyes.
You think that we "meat-eaters" are part of the problem, when in reality you should be looking into the mirror on this one. If meat-eating was the source of many infections etc, then that damage was done thousands of years ago, harping on about it now it honestly illogical, ridiculous, and unproductive.
Oh! I didn't realise you didn't know that being vegan can dramatically decrease your risk of developing multiple diseases. Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30gEiweaAVQ. The video is filed with a myriad of studies with, in some cases, hundreds of thousands of participants. I recommend you watch it. I did not say that "there wouldn't be any need for vaccinations at all." I said the need for them will decrease, as the risk of developing the diseases we need vaccines for will have also decreased in the first place. Also I am pro-vaccine. Because vaccines save lives. But eating meat is literally doing the opposite.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: pi on April 24, 2016, 06:55:59 pm
Linking me to suspicious and obviously biased youtube videos and websites isn't going to help whatever contradictory cause you're fighting for (against vaccines, now for vaccines? back-flip after back-flip in this thread from you). 99% of what they say is rhetoric and the 1% that may be scientific is twisted towards their contention. If you choose to educate yourself through those channels, then good for you, but it's not how I like to learn.
Link me some peer-reviewed articles published in reputable scientific journals and I'll read them and take them into consideration.
No doubt eating large quantities of meat is worse (fatty, carcinogenic maybe, etc.) than eating large quantities of fruits and vegies (risk from high sugar, lack of proteins and b12, etc.), but in moderation, the consensus is that it's actually fine. I prefer to eat to live, not live to eat. You're really suggesting the opposite, and I think that's a little sad. Life's too short as it is to be worrying about the minute % increase something is doing to your body, mainly because we don't know everything about the body and what else is causing problems.
Having said that, I find your comments absolutely ludicrous. You're firmly against non-human animal testing of vaccines and medications, and you've stated numerous times you're not in favour of vaccines or medications for those reasons, but you're still *apparently* pro-vaccinations? Are you trying to convince us, or yourself? Because to me, it seems that you don't really have a firm stance of what you believe, because you know deep down that going too hard-line is going to make you sound like an absolute nutcase. Where do you draw the line? It's cool to take the environment away from animals (ie. your house, pollution from your car, etc.) so they lose their habitat, but we can't eat them (despite obviously being omnivores) or use them ethically for experimentation?
It just doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: achre on April 24, 2016, 07:52:46 pm
Other than maybe pet ownership, I don't think it's possible to justify the commodity status of animals. All I mean by that is that I've read a lot of compelling arguments against the practice, and frankly nothing compelling in favour of it. So in that regard I, in principle, condemn purchasing animal products, including meat, dairy, leather, chicken salt and all manner of other things.
That being said, I still eat meat and dairy and all manner of other things because it's convenient. I enjoy it and it's easy for me to do. This isn't an argument in favour of eating meat or dairy - it's equivalent to saying that my most trivial interest (having nice tasting food) trumps the most basic interest of all life (continuing to exist). I'm happy to acknowledge that that makes me a bad person, if for no other reason than hypocrisy. I would like to go vegan some day, when I'm more financially and personally independent, but at the moment it's just too inconvenient.
Interested to see your ethical arguments against meat, I see nothing wrong in eating meat from an ethical stand-point (I mean, we're not the only species to eat another?).
Well, wild animals are hardly moral role models. You wouldn't take the example of someone killing their children, shrug your shoulders and say "well, we're not the only species to kill our children", would you?
That aside, common experience teaches that animals we farm for their meat, like cows or pigs or chickens, have an interest in both continuing to exist and avoiding pain. Industrial-scale farming can't be sustained without frustrating those interests at some point. The most refined and humane process would at least incidentally cause harm, even if its not intended. That's one moral argument against participating in a commodity chain that farms animals.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: Señor on April 24, 2016, 10:00:08 pm
A mod should lock this thread. A "debate" without an open-minded discussion is pointless, counter-productive and not worth having to say the least.
Title: Re: Thoughts on eating meat and dairy?
Post by: nerdgasm on April 24, 2016, 11:50:32 pm
Regarding the ethics of meat consumption - sitting here at my computer, I do feel somewhat bad about the fact that animals are dying to provide us with nutrition, but also (correct me if I'm wrong) that animals are being brought into this world solely for that purpose. And yet, today I ate pork and chicken without a twinge on my conscience. So how can this apparent dissonance be explained?
My opinion on this, is that it's general apathy that leads most of the current meat-eating population to continue eating meat, myself included. It's fairly obvious to say that meat and meat products are available in most places we can obtain food, such as restaurants and supermarkets. To me, meat does indeed taste good, and so this provides an incentive for me to eat it, in the same way that I have an incentive to eat sweet corn, cashews, or ice-cream. I don't think the majority of meat-eaters revel in the death caused to get their meal on the plate; we do not sit at our table with a glint in our eyes, filled with visceral glee at slicing into our meat as if we were slicing into the animal itself. If someone put a live chicken in front of me and asked me to kill it, I'd very likely be unable to do it (props to anyone who gets the CHERUB reference). Does this make me a hypocrite, or deluded, or unwilling to face up to the reality of what meat-eating entails? Almost definitely. This leads me back into my description of apathy being the chief reason for the continuing proportion of meat-eaters who have sufficient resources and opportunity to adopt a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle - for most people, meat-eating is seen as a positive experience that is viewed by most of society as being socially acceptable, and even encouraged (consider the ads encouraging the eating of red meat, pork, or lamb for example). None of this takes away from the ethical issues associated with raising and killing life for nutrition; I'm just trying to (rather simplistically) explain the behaviour of meat-eaters.
I put forth the argument that when people say, "I love chicken/beef/pork/fish/goat/turkey/etc.", what they mostly mean is, "I like the taste, texture (and maybe symbolism) of eating chicken/beef/pork/fish/goat/turkey/etc." Suppose somebody offered me a burger, except with a beef patty replaced with a plant-based alternative that simulates the taste and texture of the beef patty so well, to the point where I can't tell the difference blindfolded. Would I be more than happy to eat this burger, and go to eateries that sell this burger, and recommend it to those around me? Yes, I would. I am convinced that in the future (not sure how far forward), mass-production of meat-simulant food will commence, and we will see a decent proportion (say at least 20%) of food stores/supermarkets offering it, depending on how expensive it is to produce. I believe that at this point, we reach a transitory period where some will eat exclusively from the meat-simulant range, others will eat both meat and meat-simulant, and others will keep eating as they currently do. At this point, whether the meat-simulant market overtakes the meat market comes down to just how big a 'sin' society sees meat-eating as, assuming convenience is a non-issue. So, I guess, a vegan society is perhaps almost inevitable, maybe just not in our lifetimes ( or perhaps I've been watching too many old Star Trek episodes).
I think that if all the meat options were suddenly removed, and the subsequent land used for farming non-meat consumables, humanity would manage reasonably well. Yes, there would probably be some who need more medical attention, but I don't think society would crash around our ears.
Regarding the use of animals in vaccine testing, I think the issue is about what alternatives there are. Injecting vaccines into healthy humans is surely an ethical no-no, regardless of whether you believe injecting vaccines into animals is ethical or not. Ultimately, I think it comes down to a bit of species-ism here - we see ourselves as 'more valuable' than other species, simply because we think we have the capacity to achieve more, not just for ourselves, but also for all species. A lion is unlikely to be able to equitably work out how to help a gibbon and a snake in the rainforest. An owl probably can't work out how environmental conditions lead to an imbalance in the food web causing a marked decrease in krill in the winter. Yes, Nature does provide the equilibrium conditions at present - and we might never be able to match that. But, we should eventually have the capacity to at least provide a good enough approximation that should we wish to save a species (for whatever reason), we can.
While nobody can doubt that humanity has caused harm to the animal kingdom, I believe that we also have the capacity to help it immensely. Maybe that capacity shall never be exercised; if it doesn't need to, then that's well and good. But I don't think I'm being too optimistic in saying that animals can benefit from improvements to humans, and with more passing of time, they will more and more.