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October 22, 2025, 07:57:54 am

Author Topic: Atheism and Christmas  (Read 14367 times)  Share 

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Chavi

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2010, 01:01:25 pm »
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But it's funny to see that in your 17/18 years of erudite experience in theology, you're able to do so.

Pot, kettle, ad hominem etc.

He's saying that religion can prescribe things for people to accept unquestioningly, which isn't compatible with logical and independent thought, not that all religions are nonsense.
Nobody is arguing that blind faith and unquestionable support is correct. I have personally witnessed excellent debates, read commentaries and explanations all on particular aspects of religion by religious people. Saying that every religious person is a robot being spoon-fed a set of laws is pure nonsense.

And yes - my comment applied to me as well. I have neither the research experience or knowledge to give a blanket dismissal of religion, just because it's trendy to do so.

@Ninwa - Irreligion = don't care. Agnosticism = don't know. Perhaps I should have added the word 'respectively' to the end of that sentence.
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TrueTears

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2010, 01:58:20 pm »
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Atheism and Christmas: Should Atheists Ignore Christmas or Celebrate It?


Christmas is coming up and the whole dilemma of whether I should still celebrate it or not since as an atheist it does seem like hypocrisy. Having said that its the time of the year that I get to see family and don't want to stop that.

I am the first of my family to become an atheist as everyone else is catholic. My grandparents are strong Catholics and my parents are weaker catholics. So I'm the odd one out.

I personally believe Jesus existed, having said that, just as a normal human being. With regards to the star seen at his birth, scientists predict the gigantic star was actually the light from a supanova that had reached earth long after it actually went supernova.

With regards to the above website, it discusses christmas is becoming a secularized event. So I may not be a hypocrite.

Anyway I would love people's views.


I have never 'celebrated' Christmas lol nor does my family.
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2010, 02:32:43 pm »
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@Ninwa - Irreligion = don't care. Agnosticism = don't know. Perhaps I should have added the word 'respectively' to the end of that sentence.

Ninwa was correct.

Although, even with this correction, I feel that your perception of the definition of agnosticism remains flawed and insulting.

Agnostics propose that it is impossible to know whether 'God' exists, no matter who you are. Your definition, however, implies that it is a failure of knowledge within the agnostic person that causes them to not know, rather than the objectively unknowable nature of 'God's' existence.
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Yitzi_K

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2010, 03:12:06 pm »
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With regards to the star seen at his birth, scientists predict the gigantic star was actually the light from a supanova that had reached earth long after it actually went supernova.

I don't see the point of this? How does the fact that the light was from a natural source detract from the act itself? God orchestrated it, utilising the universe he created. Just because there is a natural explanation for something does not exclude any sentient involvement.

( Cue massive debate? .. I hope not, can't be bothered xD )

I agree with you here. I don't understand it people when say 'well that wasn't a miracle, it was just nature'. For example, I read recently that scientists worked out that a strong wind could have caused the Reed Sea to split, hence there's no need to call it miracle. Maybe it was caused by natural causes, but the fact that it happened at that exact time is the miracle, as G-d manipulated nature to cause it to happen at the right time. Simirlarly, 'the walls of Jericho weren't brought down by G-d, it was an earthquake'. Well yeh, but Who caused the earthquake?
  How rare an event was the parting on its own though? Did the Hebrews really see choppy waves give way to wet sand in a flash? Or was the drying-up a slower, less exceptional (and possibly cyclical) phenomenon?

Well if you read the source, it appears to have happened overnight. And it didn't give way to wet sand, it was actually dry underneath. In any case, there has been no record of such a phenomenon occuring at any other time in history, so I don't see how you could propose that it is a cyclical event.
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Killerkob

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2010, 04:55:14 pm »
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With regards to the star seen at his birth, scientists predict the gigantic star was actually the light from a supanova that had reached earth long after it actually went supernova.

I don't see the point of this? How does the fact that the light was from a natural source detract from the act itself? God orchestrated it, utilising the universe he created. Just because there is a natural explanation for something does not exclude any sentient involvement.

( Cue massive debate? .. I hope not, can't be bothered xD )

I agree with you here. I don't understand it people when say 'well that wasn't a miracle, it was just nature'. For example, I read recently that scientists worked out that a strong wind could have caused the Reed Sea to split, hence there's no need to call it miracle. Maybe it was caused by natural causes, but the fact that it happened at that exact time is the miracle, as G-d manipulated nature to cause it to happen at the right time. Simirlarly, 'the walls of Jericho weren't brought down by G-d, it was an earthquake'. Well yeh, but Who caused the earthquake?
  How rare an event was the parting on its own though? Did the Hebrews really see choppy waves give way to wet sand in a flash? Or was the drying-up a slower, less exceptional (and possibly cyclical) phenomenon?

Well if you read the source, it appears to have happened overnight. And it didn't give way to wet sand, it was actually dry underneath. In any case, there has been no record of such a phenomenon occuring at any other time in history, so I don't see how you could propose that it is a cyclical event.

Global Warming, too much water in the oceans now to decrease it to the point it was back in ye' olde days.

On a serious note, though:
Religion is given the colloquial term 'faith' for a very good reason. To me, that's exactly what religion provides, a way of hope and faith for people to live their lives. Who cares if Judy down the road wishes to find acceptance of her husband's death in the Christian God, a Buddhist Tenant or the scientific knowledge that he is decomposed into the earth to rejuvenate the life around him. What I'm getting at is it's not as though there's a right or wrong way of believing when they all provide such positive outlooks of life. It's the only way for some people to survive.

However, while there is no right or wrong religion, there are right or wrong people within those religions. These people are the extremists, the ones who believe "If you're not part of our religion then you're our enemy/going to die/going to hell" or "I don't care how much you require this to get by in life, your logic is flawed for *<no one can build a universe in seven days>*." These are the lowest forms of scum in the world that we know of and they deserve no one's time to be acknowledged. And anyway, no one is going to digest a thing you say by force feeding them down the throat. You have to allow them to develop their own way of thinking as they find their own way through life.

*<Insert religious belief here>*

On-topic Note:
OP, definitely celebrate Christmas. It's easily a secular occasion in modern times..
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2010, 05:31:41 pm »
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On-topic Note:
OP, definitely celebrate Christmas. It's easily a secular occasion in modern times..

Yeah, you're not going to lose any atheist points buddy.

We promise we won't tell Mr Dawkins.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2010, 05:48:30 pm »
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Christmas isn't about Jesus anymore it's about seeing who can spend the most money to buy someones love for 1 day of the year and how much money companies can make selling expensive crap to people.

Killerkob

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2010, 05:50:40 pm »
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On-topic Note:
OP, definitely celebrate Christmas. It's easily a secular occasion in modern times..

Yeah, you're not going to lose any atheist points buddy.

We promise we won't tell Mr Dawkins.

A quick wikipedia search tells me you mean Richard Dawkins.
I don't see how he's related o.O
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2010, 06:00:11 pm »
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On-topic Note:
OP, definitely celebrate Christmas. It's easily a secular occasion in modern times..

Yeah, you're not going to lose any atheist points buddy.

We promise we won't tell Mr Dawkins.

A quick wikipedia search tells me you mean Richard Dawkins.
I don't see how he's related o.O

He is the Jesus of atheists, basically.
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Russ

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2010, 06:27:06 pm »
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Christmas isn't about Jesus anymore it's about seeing who can spend the most money to buy someones love for 1 day of the year and how much money companies can make selling expensive crap to people.

Valentine's Day is worse!

Chavi

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2010, 07:16:50 pm »
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@Ninwa - Irreligion = don't care. Agnosticism = don't know. Perhaps I should have added the word 'respectively' to the end of that sentence.

Ninwa was correct.

Although, even with this correction, I feel that your perception of the definition of agnosticism remains flawed and insulting.

Agnostics propose that it is impossible to know whether 'God' exists, no matter who you are. Your definition, however, implies that it is a failure of knowledge within the agnostic person that causes them to not know, rather than the objectively unknowable nature of 'God's' existence.

Regardless of how you feel, you should know that painting Agnostics as igorant wasn't the intent of my post - I was merely providing a simplified definition that you now take out of context by insinuating an insult that doesn't exist/

Of all the debates in history, the debate on the merits of Agnosticism would be one of the least constructive, because Agnostics have little or no burden of proof, or little to argue on either side of the 'religion debate'. It reminds me of a quote: 'You're only sitting on the fence because you can't make up your mind'. Unless of course evidence is discovered to sway you one way or the other.

Side note: 1000 VN Furniture time  :coolsmiley:
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2010, 07:32:12 pm »
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@Ninwa - Irreligion = don't care. Agnosticism = don't know. Perhaps I should have added the word 'respectively' to the end of that sentence.

Ninwa was correct.

Although, even with this correction, I feel that your perception of the definition of agnosticism remains flawed and insulting.

Agnostics propose that it is impossible to know whether 'God' exists, no matter who you are. Your definition, however, implies that it is a failure of knowledge within the agnostic person that causes them to not know, rather than the objectively unknowable nature of 'God's' existence.

Regardless of how you feel, you should know that painting Agnostics as igorant wasn't the intent of my post - I was merely providing a simplified definition that you now take out of context by insinuating an insult that doesn't exist/

Of all the debates in history, the debate on the merits of Agnosticism would be one of the least constructive, because Agnostics have little or no burden of proof, or little to argue on either side of the 'religion debate'. It reminds me of a quote: 'You're only sitting on the fence because you can't make up your mind'. Unless of course evidence is discovered to sway you one way or the other.

Side note: 1000 VN Furniture time  :coolsmiley:

Your simplification of the definition took a form that is insulting, however.

In defense of my Agnostic position, which you have now ever so clearly denigrated, let me borrow an idea from John Paulos:

uncertainty is the only certainty.

Nothing can be undoubtedly known or proven; hence my agnosticism.

Do not generalise the attitudes of some careless agnostics to ALL agnostics.
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Chavi

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2010, 07:38:59 pm »
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@Ninwa - Irreligion = don't care. Agnosticism = don't know. Perhaps I should have added the word 'respectively' to the end of that sentence.

Ninwa was correct.

Although, even with this correction, I feel that your perception of the definition of agnosticism remains flawed and insulting.

Agnostics propose that it is impossible to know whether 'God' exists, no matter who you are. Your definition, however, implies that it is a failure of knowledge within the agnostic person that causes them to not know, rather than the objectively unknowable nature of 'God's' existence.

Regardless of how you feel, you should know that painting Agnostics as igorant wasn't the intent of my post - I was merely providing a simplified definition that you now take out of context by insinuating an insult that doesn't exist/

Of all the debates in history, the debate on the merits of Agnosticism would be one of the least constructive, because Agnostics have little or no burden of proof, or little to argue on either side of the 'religion debate'. It reminds me of a quote: 'You're only sitting on the fence because you can't make up your mind'. Unless of course evidence is discovered to sway you one way or the other.

Side note: 1000 VN Furniture time  :coolsmiley:

Your simplification of the definition took a form that is insulting, however.

In defense of my Agnostic position, which you have now ever so clearly denigrated, let me borrow an idea from John Paulos:

uncertainty is the only certainty.

Nothing can be undoubtedly known or proven; hence my agnosticism.

Do not generalise the attitudes of some careless agnostics to ALL agnostics.
All you have done is corroborated the simplified definition that I have provided.
Find as many synonyms as you wish to the terms 'uncertainty' and 'unsure' and you will arrive at 'don't know'.
And like I mentioned in a previous post, there is little need to defend your 'Agnostic position'. You have no burden of proof. You have no claims, only lack thereof.
Stop trying to turn something into a debate when it's clearly not.
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zomgSEAN

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2010, 07:49:53 pm »
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@Ninwa - Irreligion = don't care. Agnosticism = don't know. Perhaps I should have added the word 'respectively' to the end of that sentence.

Ninwa was correct.

Although, even with this correction, I feel that your perception of the definition of agnosticism remains flawed and insulting.

Agnostics propose that it is impossible to know whether 'God' exists, no matter who you are. Your definition, however, implies that it is a failure of knowledge within the agnostic person that causes them to not know, rather than the objectively unknowable nature of 'God's' existence.

Regardless of how you feel, you should know that painting Agnostics as igorant wasn't the intent of my post - I was merely providing a simplified definition that you now take out of context by insinuating an insult that doesn't exist/

Of all the debates in history, the debate on the merits of Agnosticism would be one of the least constructive, because Agnostics have little or no burden of proof, or little to argue on either side of the 'religion debate'. It reminds me of a quote: 'You're only sitting on the fence because you can't make up your mind'. Unless of course evidence is discovered to sway you one way or the other.

Side note: 1000 VN Furniture time  :coolsmiley:

Your simplification of the definition took a form that is insulting, however.

In defense of my Agnostic position, which you have now ever so clearly denigrated, let me borrow an idea from John Paulos:

uncertainty is the only certainty.

Nothing can be undoubtedly known or proven; hence my agnosticism.

Do not generalise the attitudes of some careless agnostics to ALL agnostics.
All you have done is corroborated the simplified definition that I have provided.
Find as many synonyms as you wish to the terms 'uncertainty' and 'unsure' and you will arrive at 'don't know'.
And like I mentioned in a previous post, there is little need to defend your 'Agnostic position'. You have no burden of proof. You have no claims, only lack thereof.
Stop trying to turn something into a debate when it's clearly not.

"don't know" is a simplification to a point that is inaccurate and misleading in describing agnosticism.

If you make attacks against the agnostic position, i will defend it; simple.

I'm done with it now.
Bye Chavi.
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lynt.br

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Re: Atheism and Christmas
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2010, 08:55:51 pm »
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This thread reminds me of this.

Apparently there's some uproar because this song features on the Myers charity Christmas CD thingo. I wonder how people would have reacted had he used his pope song instead :P


/semi thread hijack.