If everyone was atheist...

[enwiabe]

You know you're right though... It goes one layer deeper than fear of uncertainty... and that is self-preservation. We want to minimise risk and danger. And these risks and dangers are minimised when we are certain of our surroundings and ourselves. To us, risk and danger go hand in hand with the unknown (why are we so afraid of the dark? it's instinctive that we do not know what lurks in wait behind a darkened corner).

So ultimately, you can trace fear of uncertainty to the absolute base biological instinct of self-preservation... but the way to override it is to present the argument that fear of the unknown in fact results in a greater risk and danger to us as a species, and that appeals to our self-preservation on an even greater scale. That instead of not going near the dark places and letting an evil bad person lie there in wait for opportunity, to shine a light on them and find out what's really going on.

And that is why we can choose to be agnostic, because it is logical and rational to minimise the risk posed to our self-preservation.

[QuantumJG]

Faith can defy

I think these three words ultimately illustrate both the blessing and the fatal curse of religious belief. For those people for whom uncertainty is too scary, religion brings order out of the chaos that surrounds us.

Faith has answers. Why does the sun rise? God did it. Why do the tides turn? Why are there even tides? God did it. And then the ultimate, where did we come from and why are we here? God did it, and god knows but isn't telling us.

Since we began to develop inquisitive thought thousands of years ago, we asked these questions. And yet, up until recently, we did not have the means by which to investigate the vast majority of these questions empirically. Thus for those people for whom "I don't know" was too traumatising, "it was god" was, and is, such a nice, simple answer. It's not tangible, but it's warm and comforting. We want to know that we're being looked after. We don't want to feel the cold aloneness of an existential universe.

I did not come up with this rationale, but out of all the possible explanations for religion and god that I have read, this appears to me to be the most logical of all of them. It was, more than likely, an anthropological construct to provide the crutch to a fearful people.

And so, faith does not transcend logic as Chavi puts it. That is too nice a word for what it does. More, faith is the opposite of logic. It has no axioms, it does not follow any rational progression. Faith is the equivalent of logic's step brother who buries his head in the sand during a fight and says "LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA LA"

And that is why it is so comfortable to so many, because it takes away all the difficult questioning and investigation of what actually happened. We can bury our heads in the sand and pretend that there is no complexity to all of the difficult questions that we ask.

I am comfortable with not knowing. I am agnostic because I do not feel the compulsion to guess the answer. And I hope that one day, as human beings, we may all be comfortable with uncertainty. Because fear of uncertainty, that is at the root of all the evils in this world. Why do people become so defensive of religious beliefs? It is because once the safety blanket is removed, your entire worldview comes crashing down and with it, comes back your crushing fear of uncertainty.

And you can trace fear of uncertainty to every other problem that we face in this vein. Will the Muslims take over our country and convert us all to Sharia? We don't know, but let's fear them and hate them anyway! Rinse and repeat for any other problem you can think of.

I think that for humanity to progress forward, we must inevitably shed faith - a process which rewards ignorance, and close-mindedness. It's interesting that you all say that shedding religion will not solve our problems. I agree 100%. I believe that shedding our fear of uncertainty will ultimately be the solution to our problems. That is not to say that ridding ourselves of uncertainty is the solution - for that could well be impossible. But the fear of uncertainty, that is what weighs us down.

Uncertainty is nothing to fear. It is something to master with Scientific process and logic. Maybe there is a god. Maybe we are all alone. Maybe we're one of many millions of races throughout the universe. I am excited by the scientific chase of these answers, not by fanciful guesses.

Nicely said.

[QuantumJG]

What do you have against muslims,

Absolutely nothing. I am of the belief that the majority of Muslims in the Arab world are ordinary people who just want to go about their daily lives: live, eat, go to the shuk, meet the habibis, smoke nargila and go home to the wife(s). There is a very vocal minority (how large - depends on the stats), that adopts a radical, fundamentalist view that stands in antithesis to my own - so much so, that they want me and my people dead. My response is purely reactionary. I don't come into frequent contact with Muslims because the area of Melbourne in which I live has a very minute population, so they aren't very visible here (ditto for Muslim suburbs re: Caucasians).
Working with Somali and Darfurian refugees has certainly dispelled any of the crazier theories that I've heard. I am a firm believer in nurture and education (the father of one of the refugees became alarmed once he realized a Jew was teacher his daughter English. They're evil! he protested adamantly, despite never having met one. . .) . Nobody is born a terrorist. Only through inculcation and a culture of hatred, which is quite evidently occurs in the Arab world, do children adopt radical Islam as their worldview. Like Gert Wilders says - Muslims aren't the problem. Radical Islam is.

I'm going to defend Chavi here by saying that he is right here. The same applies to us (in a different way) in that these people also want the western world dead. Looking at their attacks on Israel it is patent of how genocidal they are.

Enwiabie is right in saying that this 'faith' can be a dangerous thing. Don't get me wrong Islam isn't the only religion that has 'produced' these people. Christianity has also had it's share of dangerous stuff. With cults, a lot of very vocal (you could call them extremists) anti-abortionists, their attitudes to sexuality and finally there attitude to people of a different race. Just look at the Southern part of North America! 

[QuantumJG]

Abortion is still a fairly Taboo topic, and because of religions power, Parliament still finds it difficult to legislate on such issues.

Did you ever consider that this may in fact be a good thing? If religion is holding the slipping (or changing) of moral standards in check, that is not a bad thing. And yes, legalising abortion would absolutely represent a slipping in moral standards.

Poor attitude. You reject the obvious mental and physiological concerns in respect to the mothers wellbeing that must be considered when deciding what should be on such an issue.

I'm not saying that there are never cases where abortion should be allowed, but every case must be examined on it's own merits. But the general attitude of 'Well I didn't wear a condom, and I don't really want a baby right now' should not be a legal reason for terminating a foetus.

@Spreadbury: This is why I'm pro-choice. You have to consider the mothers wellbeing. These vocal anti-abortionists standing outside of clinics really piss me off. I even lol when some are women with like 6 kids and their only reason is for well-fare support (we knew one, I tried to limit the times I would go with my mum because I was disgusted).

@Yitzi: Valid point, but can you really see those people being good parents? Forcing that child to be born would be detrimental to the child. 

[QuantumJG]

Sure, religion provides refuge from uncertainty, and yes, without it there'd be many unable to cope with the questions posed. Clearly you believe that a long time ago, someone said, 'well shit, I haven't a clue why we're here and that scares me. Let's just say that some Being put us here for a purpose, that makes me feel much better'.

Now I agree that's a reasonable-sounding claim to put forward. But why does that have to be the case?

I could not stop laughing at this.

How many people on here believe in an afterlife?

I don't believe in an afterlife. Maybe string theory will prove otherwise that when you die you can exist in another dimension.

[Mr Edwards]

Absolutely nothing. I am of the belief that the majority of Muslims in the Arab world are ordinary people who just want to go about their daily lives: live, eat, go to the shuk, meet the habibis, smoke nargila and go home to the wife(s). There is a very vocal minority (how large - depends on the stats), that adopts a radical, fundamentalist view that stands in antithesis to my own - so much so, that they want me and my people dead.

Since when have you believed this Chavi? Your stance on the Islam problem seems to have changed.

but in my view the majority of muslims are peaceful and are willing to follow the norms in other countries as well as follow their religion and its not islam per se

You'll actually find that a sizeable proportion of Muslim denizens throughout the Arab world believe that suicide bombings against unarmed civilians are justified, so your hypothesis seems more like a gut feeling, rather than anything based on facts: (A thorough analysis by the independent Pew research center here: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world).
This means that there is a large proportion in the Muslim world who are passively willing to support terror,  so stating that the majority of Muslims are really peaceful is utter nonsense and sounds like appeasement masked by political correctness..

[QuantumJG]

Whoa a lot went on whilst I was asleep.

[Mr Edwards]

Whoa a lot went on whilst I was asleep.

Well, this was from a different thread: http://vcenotes.com/forum/index.php/topic,28867.msg296398.html#msg296398

Just pointing out that it's a little hard for others to debate if you have constantly changing views.

[kdgamz]

Now answer my question.
What do you have against muslims, that drives you to go insane in every single thread about islam, constantly portraying them as terrorists, linking to terrorist natures?
Do you have any good friends who are muslim that you see regularly? (non of this fb crap)

Additionally, we are told that support for radical Islam amongst other Muslims is non-existent. This too, is a lie. Support, or the lack of condemnation which comes to the exact same thing, of terrorism, is, I believe, widespread to the point where it may be considered the majority view among Muslims.

You have no idea how wrong you are....how can you take that stance knowing very well that it absolutely makes no sense!!

[Yitzi_K]

Kdgamz, do you unequivocally condemn Hamas for their actions? Would you donate to an appeal for Gaza if you knew that the money would end up with Hamas?

[kdgamz]

Kdgamz, do you unequivocally condemn Hamas for their actions? Would you donate to an appeal for Gaza if you knew that the money would end up with Hamas?

i dont know anything about these groups but the killing of innocent people I do condemn, all im saying is dont make wild statements that arent true

[Eriny]

I'm going to change the topic a little. A number of pages ago, someone asked if you can be atheist and spiritual. I would say yes, certainly, though I don't think that I'm spiritual as such.

I think enwiabe's points about uncertainty are very good, but you also have to keep in mind that many atheists are certain about how the world works. It started with the big bang, it's comprised of atoms and energy and such. When you die there is nothing. While I disagree with the way religion gives certainty to the universe, I also disagree that we can speculate what happens after we die. And further, while I definitely believes in the findings of science, I don't think it gives us a full illustration of the world.

Although I don't identify myself as a spiritual person, I am interested in the intangible. In ideas, in metaphysics, I'm interested in things that aren't directly observable. God could be one of those things, but I personally believe that the idea of God is much more important then his or her literal existence. What character, (in one form or another or many) boasts quite so much influence over human civilisation? We can see God everywhere in churches and synagogues and mosques, but God gets to the heart of our laws, our beliefs, our idea of what's right and wrong. God is in the Declaration of Human Rights as much as he is in the church. Even those who don't believe in God are so deeply influenced by the idea of God, because this idea has so much to do with out culture. Putting on my anthropologist hat here, many of our ideas, particularly pertaining to morality, are based on Judeo-Christian sentiment. God is very real (maybe not literally though).

But anyway, I think that my interest in the humanities, in philosophy, in art, etc. means that I don't see the world in a reductionist kind of way. There's more to the world than its physical/biological/chemical nature. There's beauty and power and emotions and lots of over abstract stuff. For me, this abstract level of intellectual inquiry replaces spirituality for me. That's why I actually identify myself as a Secular Humanist before I see myself as an atheist. I think that there is more to the world than what we can observe, but I don't think that necessarily means that there is a literal God out there who created us and watches over us.

[Spreadbury]

When you die there is nothing. While I disagree with the way religion gives certainty to the universe, I also disagree that we can speculate what happens after we die.

Before you were born there was nothing (that you are aware of/ can recall) and I see this as an indication of what happens after death.

[Chavi]

Absolutely nothing. I am of the belief that the majority of Muslims in the Arab world are ordinary people who just want to go about their daily lives: live, eat, go to the shuk, meet the habibis, smoke nargila and go home to the wife(s). There is a very vocal minority (how large - depends on the stats), that adopts a radical, fundamentalist view that stands in antithesis to my own - so much so, that they want me and my people dead.

Since when have you believed this Chavi? Your stance on the Islam problem seems to have changed.

but in my view the majority of muslims are peaceful and are willing to follow the norms in other countries as well as follow their religion and its not islam per se

You'll actually find that a sizeable proportion of Muslim denizens throughout the Arab world believe that suicide bombings against unarmed civilians are justified, so your hypothesis seems more like a gut feeling, rather than anything based on facts: (A thorough analysis by the independent Pew research center here: http://pewresearch.org/pubs/26/where-terrorism-finds-support-in-the-muslim-world).
This means that there is a large proportion in the Muslim world who are passively willing to support terror,  so stating that the majority of Muslims are really peaceful is utter nonsense and sounds like appeasement masked by political correctness..

*according to the stats. Also on a side note, there are varying degrees of radicalization and terrorism. The vocal minority are the ones willing to go out into the caves and shoot the invaders. The silent majority lends it's support from a distance. This is what I clearly stated in the previous thread, so saying that the Majority of Muslims in the Arab world have higher priorities than assembling IEDs shows that there is absolutely no contradiction here.

[Chavi]

I think enwiabe's points about uncertainty are very good, but you also have to keep in mind that many atheists are certain about how the world works. It started with the big bang,

Atheism can't explain what came before the big bang. Monotheism can.